196 réponses à ce sujet

[GGW KillerTiger]

Let the polls decide if Cloak needs balancing!

[Demigod_3000]

Ashen Earth wrote...

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Javelin and a Claymore puts TC recharge at 24.50 seconds.

Yeah, that was the point at which I realised it's clearly pointless trying to hold an intelligent conversation with you when you'll clearly spew any idiocy in order to validate your argument.

Except it's not really idiocy. That's the actual cooldown on a -200% TC.

If cooldowns were totally irrelevant like the majority of the idiots on this forum who don't play an infiltrator, but think they know about the class say, then I should be able to load up the two heaviest weapons in my arsenal no problem.

Well said, fellow platform. Well said.

[Ashen One]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...


I don't play infiltrator because I don't like hiding cloaked far away from harm like a coward while my teammates get in close and fight.  It just doesn't seem right to me.

Obvious bias is obvious

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Ashen Earth wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...


I don't play infiltrator because I don't like hiding cloaked far away from harm like a coward while my teammates get in close and fight.  It just doesn't seem right to me.

Obvious bias is obvious

It doesn't invalidate anything I just wrote, and you know it. 

[Demigod_3000]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...


I don't play infiltrator because I don't like hiding cloaked far away from harm like a coward while my teammates get in close and fight.  It just doesn't seem right to me.

Well then... we are pretty sure you have absolutely no idea what an infiltrator's job really is. Now that is what we call ignorance at it's best.

Modifié par Demigod_3000, 13 juin 2012 - 08:23 .

[zenrockoutkast]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

zenrockoutkast wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

zenrockoutkast wrote...

 Right, because warp, reave, adrenaline rush, marskman, prox mine, grenades, biotic explosions, lash, smash, stasis, charge, energy drain, flamer, bloodlust, blade armor, overload, turrets, drones, and carnage are all such sucky powers compared to TC, right?  

None of these allows you to simultaneously inflict as much damage on enemies and avoid as much damage from enemies, as TC.  Not even close.

For one, that's total crap.  I can walk right up to a ravager with my vorcha and flamer it to death without taking a single hit from it, meanwhile with infiltrators I'm usually pinned down by a ravager before I can get a decent shot in.  Grenades, are you kidding me?  I've played with people who could probably solo games using just grenades and their weapon.  Blade armor, you can run right up to enemies and one-punch them to death, if they happen to melee you then they get staggered.  I've seen Phoenix characters decimate entire groups of enemies in seconds.  Biotic charge can restore your shields to 100% and give you a damage boost at the same time.  Fully upgraded turrets can do tons of damage and draw aggro, not to mention give a shield booth on geth turrets.  I could go on and on.

The fact is that every class has its pros and cons.  Infiltrators can do tons of damage, but they have horrible defenses.  If an enemy closes in on them from behind or they get stuck in the middle of a group they're dead.  Infiltrators have to play smart, they have to choose their shots wisely and make them all count.  That is how the class is supposed to play, a nerf would completely kill their viability.

Please stop speaking to us as if we've never played infiltrator before.  I don't play infiltrator because I don't like hiding cloaked far away from harm like a coward while my teammates get in close and fight.  It just doesn't seem right to me.

The times I've played Infiltrator, usually with a Mantis, I've done at least as much damage as with other classes WHILE AT THE SAME TIME taking significantly less damage myself.

I know how it works, and there is no class that can deal damage, while avoid being dealt damage, anything like an Infiltrator.  It's massively OP, even with weak sniper rifles.

Oh, I get it now, you don't like the infiltrator playstyle so you think it should be nerfed, got it.

For one, snipers have a huge reload time.  I can take down a ravager faster with my vorcha or AP Mattock sentinel than I can with my Widow Infiltrator.  You must be playing on bronze or something.

Two, there's more than one way to play an Infiltrator.  I have five different infiltrators: a scimitar quarian, a GPS geth, a widow human, a melee/paladin human, and a BW salarian.  They all play differently, they all have their own strengths and weaknesses, and if any of them are drawing aggro from more than a couple of enemies at a time then they are all dead.  That's how the class plays, just like soldiers can take more damage than infiltrators but can't drop aggro.  THAT is what we like to call balance, stripping infiltrators of all their utility isn't.

[Ashen One]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...


I don't play infiltrator because I don't like hiding cloaked far away from harm like a coward while my teammates get in close and fight.  It just doesn't seem right to me.

Obvious bias is obvious

It doesn't invalidate anything I just wrote, and you know it. 

Someone who doesn't play as a certain class extensively is giving his misguided, biased opinion on how to effectively neuter the class.

It doesn't really help any of your arguments.

Maybe you should just add that into the OP. You would save any rational individual the trouble of reading through a 7 page pissing match.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 13 juin 2012 - 08:31 .

[Demigod_3000]

@ CmnDwnWrkn

Mantis? A Mantis? Wow, I was surprised at your comments before...

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Ashen Earth wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...


I don't play infiltrator because I don't like hiding cloaked far away from harm like a coward while my teammates get in close and fight.  It just doesn't seem right to me.

Obvious bias is obvious

It doesn't invalidate anything I just wrote, and you know it. 

Someone who doesn't play as a certain class extensively is giving his misguided, biased opinion on how to effectively neuter the class.

It doesn't really help any of your arguments.

It doesn't invalidate anything I just wrote, and you know it. 

You still aren't responding to what I actually wrote, because you know it's accurate.

Demigod_3000 wrote...

@ CmnDwnWrkn

Mantis? A Mantis? Wow, I was surprised at your comments before...

????

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 13 juin 2012 - 08:30 .

[Lagrad Gribble]

Maybe you should stop trying to use every class the same way?

[Ashen One]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...


I don't play infiltrator because I don't like hiding cloaked far away from harm like a coward while my teammates get in close and fight.  It just doesn't seem right to me.

Obvious bias is obvious

It doesn't invalidate anything I just wrote, and you know it. 

Someone who doesn't play as a certain class extensively is giving his misguided, biased opinion on how to effectively neuter the class.

It doesn't really help any of your arguments.

It doesn't invalidate anything I just wrote, and you know it. 

You still aren't responding to what I actually wrote, because you know it's accurate.

Demigod_3000 wrote...

@ CmnDwnWrkn

Mantis? A Mantis? Wow, I was surprised at your comments before...

????

Wrong. I'm not responding to it because your opinion is biased, very unlikely to change and you're going to keep crying about infiltrators regardless due to your lack of understanding about the class. You're free to be as ignorant as you want about the in game classes, but I'm not obligated to respond.

Carry on, OP.

[Demigod_3000]

Kind sir, we regret to inform you that the Mantis is quite possibly the worst weapon in the entire game on Gold difficulty because of it's low damage output, long reload period, and low capacity. We use the M-29 Incisor to much greater efficiency.

[Ashen One]

Demigod_3000 wrote...

Kind sir, we regret to inform you that the Mantis is quite possibly the worst weapon in the entire game on Gold difficulty because of it's low damage output, long reload period, and low capacity. We use the M-29 Incisor to much greater efficiency.

The Mantis is actually not all that bad, it's the third highest damage per shot sniper rifle in the game.

I personally wouldn't use it on an Infiltrator though. It's nice on a Geth Engineer if you can get headshots.

[bclagge]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Since the main objective of this game is to kill enemies, there is simply no power that is more powerful than a gigantic damage bonus.  And right now, Infiltrator is the only class that gets this.  That should not be.  It's the one balance issue that should take priority over all others.  There are two options:

1) Nerf Tactical Cloak - Perhaps the most unfavorable option, since infiltrator snipers are used to their nice damage bonus that they've had for a while.

2) Buff Other classes - This is perhaps the more favorable option, as it would not weaken the Infiltrator.  It would simply improve weaker classes to be somewhat closer to the Infiltrator in terms of damage they can inflict.  There is no reason why Soldiers and Sentinels should not get a big damage modifier for certain types of weapons.  As it stands, certain classes are under-utilized because they're simply outclassed.

The bottom line is - other classes need a damage boost.

I am not reading this entire thread, but I disagree fundamentally with your argument.  Some classes are of a support role and should not get the same DPS as every other class.  Some classes are more challenging to play for less reward, and that's ok!  Say no to homogeneity!  I prefer tie-dye to shades of grey, TYVM.

As it stands, certain classes are under-utilized because they're simply outclassed.

Certain classes are under-utilized because people are uncreative.

[Pitznik]

Ashen Earth wrote...

That's your opinion. Personally, I think the ability to hold off multiple Geth Hunters from behind a wall during a wave 10 hack is pretty useful, but each to his own.

That's what I call "extremely situational". While I do like Tech Armor, keeping cooldown low just to use it doesn't make any sense to me (even if I actually do that - but not because it is so good, but I find it more fun than equpping second weapon).

Ashen Earth wrote...
Again, being able to equip the same types of weapons as any other class doesn't make it intelligent. If I used your line of thinking, I could go post a thread asking for increased weapon damage bonuses for Asari Adepts using Widows just because they can equip them. They have similar passives to most other classes, and the weapon can be equippped, but obviously the Asari skillset is not meant for heavy weapons, as is true about adepts in general.

Widow on AA is counterproductive for other AA powers. Claymore on my Krogan Sentinel is not, it actually fits the idea of tough to kill, melee strong, grenade lobbing character perfectly. It both works in gameplay, works in lore, Krogan passive evolution even decreses shotgun weight.

Ashen Earth wrote...


The advantage is obviously having access to both Tech and Biotic powers, giving a Sentinel more utility than an Infiltrator, particularly better synergy with a team of other Biotic/Tech users. A power damage bonus makes more sense for a Sentinel because they all have 2 or 3 damaging powers, but all of the infiltrators besides the Salarian only have one. A Sentinel would get more benefit out of a power damage bonus, because they are power based classes, with, multiple damaging powers. An Infiltrator cannot rely on powers as a significant source of damage.

Soldiers also have multiple damaging powers, does that make them power based class, that would benefit more from power damage bonuses?

How is having access to both Tech and Biotic better than Combat and Tech? Are Combat powers in some inherent way worse than Biotic? You say synergy, I say being self dependant. Both are good things
.
Also, saying that Sentinel has more utility than Infiltrator is surprising, Infiltrators are absolutely awesome when it comes to utility. Infiltrator's reliance on power damage isn't any lower than some Sentinels, you can even build Justicar relying on weapons and still being very good.

Ashen Earth wrote...

Don't misconstrue what I said. My point was that the weapon classes have abilities in their class powers that increase weapon damage because they are weapon classes. It make sense for Infiltrators, Soldiers, and to an extent, Vanguards to have power evolutions in their class powers (Charge, Cloak, Adrenaline Rush) that increase weapon damage because it's part of their class proficiency. However, a Drell Adept that gets increased weapon damage from Reave, or a Krogan Sentinel that gets increased weapon damage from Tech Armor would be pretty stupid. However, the existing power damage bonus that you can get from using Tech Armor is reasonable, because every class with Tech Armor has at least 2 other damaging powers in their skillset.

So if the only factor making a class "weapon class" is having an active ability somehow affecting weapon damage? So Batarian Soldier and Krogan Soldier are not a "weapon class"? :/ With Vorcha Soldier, who gets weapon affecting ability only through racial, which somehow doesn't count for you, that's 3 soldiers out of 5 total that don't fit your weapon class definition, in a class which is the most obvious weapon user lorewise. Can't you see how weak is your definition of weapon based class when you try to apply it to what we have in game?

How it would be stupid? That is totally your opinion, not even an argument.

How weapon damage bonus from biotic power Biotic Charge makes sense, and having weapon damage bonus from biotic power Reave doesn't? If biotic energy can somehow affect your weapon, it can also do it for other biotics.

Tech Armor helping character wearing it to see target's weak points, or even providing his weapon with way of optimizing power usage, that makes sense to me, lorewise.

Ashen Earth wrote...

Vanguards have always been a CQC combat/biotic hybrid, and if that wasn't the case in ME 3 then there would be no reason to give the Krogan Vanguard Carnage, a combat power. Carnage sure as hell isn't a racial power, like the Vorcha's flamethrower, which would explain the Vorcha Soldier having a tech ability.

Kroguard has Carnage, because he's an exception. You can't dismiss some things as exceptions, yet label Vanguard class as Combat basing on single power given to one Vanguard out of five. Vanguards are pure biotics, yet they use weapons.

[zenrockoutkast]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Demigod_3000 wrote...

Kind sir, we regret to inform you that the Mantis is quite possibly the worst weapon in the entire game on Gold difficulty because of it's low damage output, long reload period, and low capacity. We use the M-29 Incisor to much greater efficiency.

The Mantis is actually not all that bad, it's the third highest damage per shot sniper rifle in the game.

I personally wouldn't use it on an Infiltrator though. It's nice on a Geth Engineer if you can get headshots.

It's good if you're worried about cooldowns.  I use it on my SE for that reason, but even with the AP and damage mods its output is less than desirable.  Really if I get anything less than a headshot it's a wasted shot.  I think what that other user needs to realize is that damage is way different from DPS.  Yeah, I can do huge damage with a Widow or BW in a few seconds, but it takes me a whole half minute to reload.  In that time a TS with a revenant, vorcha with flamer, or a whole host of other characters could do more DPS, only they're more exposed when they do.

[Demigod_3000]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Demigod_3000 wrote...

Kind sir, we regret to inform you that the Mantis is quite possibly the worst weapon in the entire game on Gold difficulty because of it's low damage output, long reload period, and low capacity. We use the M-29 Incisor to much greater efficiency.

The Mantis is actually not all that bad, it's the third highest damage per shot sniper rifle in the game.

I personally wouldn't use it on an Infiltrator though. It's nice on a Geth Engineer if you can get headshots.

True, but on Gold? Even with an Infiltrator, the gun still pales in comparison with the Widow.

[Demigod_3000]

zenrockoutkast wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Demigod_3000 wrote...

Kind sir, we regret to inform you that the Mantis is quite possibly the worst weapon in the entire game on Gold difficulty because of it's low damage output, long reload period, and low capacity. We use the M-29 Incisor to much greater efficiency.

The Mantis is actually not all that bad, it's the third highest damage per shot sniper rifle in the game.

I personally wouldn't use it on an Infiltrator though. It's nice on a Geth Engineer if you can get headshots.

It's good if you're worried about cooldowns.  I use it on my SE for that reason, but even with the AP and damage mods its output is less than desirable.  Really if I get anything less than a headshot it's a wasted shot.  I think what that other user needs to realize is that damage is way different from DPS.  Yeah, I can do huge damage with a Widow or BW in a few seconds, but it takes me a whole half minute to reload.  In that time a TS with a revenant, vorcha with flamer, or a whole host of other characters could do more DPS, only they're more exposed when they do.

True enough, though If you're worried about cooldowns, just take a semi-auto.

[zenrockoutkast]

bclagge wrote...

As it stands, certain classes are under-utilized because they're simply outclassed.

Certain classes are under-utilized because people are uncreative.

This x100.  I don't know how often I've heard people complain about Sentinels, but my Warp+Mattock with the occasional throw explosion HS works just fine.  I might've even lead a scoreboard or two with him.

EDIT: So does my Krogan Sentinel with increased DP and melee damage from TA, so does my Turian stun+shotty flanker sentinel.  Either learn how to build a class to certain strengths or stop complaining about it.

Modifié par zenrockoutkast, 13 juin 2012 - 08:53 .

[sliverofamoon]

Lee80alabama wrote...

If all the classes got weapon damage bonus, there would be no point to having different classes. Adepts are just as powerful, or more so if working in teams than an infiltrator. Engineers are great at what they do, and almost work in a way that's not comparable to the other classes. All the classes are unique for their own reasons.

Good players can top the score board with either of the classes(not that the score actually means anything). The balance thing is just not as big of an issue as people want it to be.

Bingo!

[Creighton72]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...


I don't play infiltrator because I don't like hiding cloaked far away from harm like a coward while my teammates get in close and fight.  It just doesn't seem right to me.

Obvious bias is obvious

It doesn't invalidate anything I just wrote, and you know it. 

You do realize you just called every real sniper in the world a coward because you have no clue what you are talking about. Not to mention given the size of the maps, your never far away from anything. Also shotgun infiltrators, and infitraitor revives. Play a solo game with an Infiltrator on gold and get back to me about taking cover and how great cloak is. Yes charging into the middle of a hoard of enemies is a brilliant plan. That's a great plan, get closer to an enemy that will never break. Then lay there on the ground and wait for the Infiltraitor to come revive you.

[zenrockoutkast]

zenrockoutkast wrote...

bclagge wrote...

As it stands, certain classes are under-utilized because they're simply outclassed.

Certain classes are under-utilized because people are uncreative.

This x100.  I don't know how often I've heard people complain about Sentinels, but my Warp+Mattock with the occasional throw explosion HS works just fine.  I might've even lead a scoreboard or two with him.

EDIT: So does my Krogan Sentinel with increased DP and melee damage from TA, so does my Turian stun+shotty flanker sentinel.  Either learn how to build a class to certain strengths or stop complaining about it.

I think this is all beside your original point that someone bragging about outdamaging their whole team with a Mantis is either playing on a low difficulty or with bad teammates.

[xabkish]

These nerf-this and nerf-that threads become a great way to find smart people and filter out, well, not that smart

I'm not going to get into this argument though. I just want to say one thing: Infiltrators get a lot of attention just because they are actually a «solo» class — I mean, they do not need to team up with other players in order to be really effective. Some other class and race combinations are also capable of being amazingly effective on their own but the majority of classes require you to team up — and then, then they start to rock just as good or even better than Infiltrators. But due to random nature of matchmaking only good players constantly playing with good players from their friend list are actually able to unleash all of the classes to their true potential as a part of a coordinated squad.

Modifié par xabkish, 13 juin 2012 - 08:58 .

[WYLDMAXX]

I would like to see a 2.5% to 5% efficiency increase to all weapon mods for the soldier class.

[Demigod_3000]

xabkish wrote...

These nerf-this and nerf-that threads become a great way to find smart people and filter out, well, not that smart

I'm not going to get into this argument though. I just want to say one thing: Infiltrators get a lot of attention just because they are actually a «solo» class — I mean, they do not need to team up with other players in order to be really effective. Some other class and race combinations are also capable of being amazingly effective on their own but the majority of classes require you to team up — and then, then they start to rock just as good or even better than Infiltrators. But due to random nature of matchmaking only good players constantly playing with good players from their friend list are actually able to unleash all of the classes to their true potential as a part of a coordinated squad.

Agreed. Infs can make it even when flying solo... a big plus. At least, we prefer to see it that way.