730 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

If you want elves to be attractive humans with pointy ears, Bioware needs to work on making attractive humans.

[Lord Athena]

Wulfram wrote...

If you want elves to be attractive humans with pointy ears, Bioware needs to work on making attractive humans.

I agree, So what are we waiting for lets go straight to BioWare HQ! Roleplay as elves and say Hey! BioWare give us human elves that we love.

[Maclimes]

I don't understand why you would want elves that look like humans, but with pointy ears. We already have humans.

I'd like my elves to be a bit more distinct. In DA:O, if you can't see their ears, you can't tell if it's a human or an elf. At that point, why bother even have seperate races?

Now, on the other hand, the crazy alien look of elves in DA2 took it too far. The only ones who looked good were the ones who were intended to be major characters, such as Merril, Fenris, etc. The minor characters (Huon, Feynriel's mother, etc) were bad. Just bad.

I think instead of going with the more "unnatural" look (the large eyes, sloping nose), they should have gone for a more lithe, slender, fragile look.

[Ophir147]

Maclimes wrote...

I don't understand why you would want elves that look like humans, but with pointy ears. We already have humans.

I'd like my elves to be a bit more distinct. In DA:O, if you can't see their ears, you can't tell if it's a human or an elf. At that point, why bother even have seperate races?

Correction! They were also short.

... like dwarves.

So they were short humans with pointy ears. Quite an egregious mistake!

/sarcasm

Modifié par Ophir147, 20 juillet 2012 - 05:25 .

[Lord Athena]

Maclimes wrote...

I don't understand why you would want elves that look like humans, but with pointy ears. We already have humans.

I'd like my elves to be a bit more distinct. In DA:O, if you can't see their ears, you can't tell if it's a human or an elf. At that point, why bother even have seperate races?

Now, on the other hand, the crazy alien look of elves in DA2 took it too far. The only ones who looked good were the ones who were intended to be major characters, such as Merril, Fenris, etc. The minor characters (Huon, Feynriel's mother, etc) were bad. Just bad.

I think instead of going with the more "unnatural" look (the large eyes, sloping nose), they should have gone for a more lithe, slender, fragile look.

Tolkien quote- "The existence of Elves: that is of a race of beings closely akin to Men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically (or biologically) simply branches of the same race."

Elves are not copies of humans, its the other way around, thats why they share traits with them and why they can breed together. Humans are just bad apples, a lesser race. Elves were the first born race, and thats always said in most mythologies I have read.

Also someone asked Tolkien that same question about elves are just pointed eared humans and he wanted to know the real differences between the elf and human appearances. Toliken was offended by this and he replied back saying the following;

"'Elves' is a translation, not perhaps now very suitable, but originally good enough, of Quendi. They are represented as a race similar in appearance (and more so the further back) to Men, and in former days of the same stature. I will not here go into their differences from Men!

Good for you Tolkien for sticking up for the elves!

Yes if you can't see their ears.... Ok well i'm sure elves dress definitely and if they speak elven it's pretty obvious so that argument isn't very strong. Super Man was alien and he looked human, yet i'am sure people could tell that he was different from humans.

And I agree with you on the last two sentences, but we can only hope BioWare goes for that direction, or it's DA2.1 again...

Modifié par Lord Athena, 20 juillet 2012 - 05:38 .

[Maclimes]

That's Tolkien's elves, not Thedas elves.

Tolkien's dwarves did not have females. Should Bioware have emulated Tolkien in that regard, as well?

No, these are all new elves. Not Tolkien, not D&D, not Keebler, but Dragon Age. And I have no problem with them having their own distinct look, background, and outlook from Tolkien elves.

[Lord Athena]

And if you want proof of elven mythology in human culture look up Old Norse. They all state that Men looked upon the Elven race as fair beings.

"The land governed by King Alf (Male name Alf is derived from álf, the Old Norse for "elf") was called Alfheim, and all his offspring are related to the elves. They were fairer than any other people.."

Their lands are also described to be paradise; and were rewarded great gifts such as immortality. I'm sure if you look back in our history their has always been a race of humans that have grown jealous of other nations and people across the world, it's no shock. They even used their own religion as a cover for their evil deeds and greed for power and beauty greater than their own.

Remember the Holy Crusade? What was Holy about church tyrants? Their purpose was to claim land, take booty and exploit people whose culture differed from the people in western Europe. They also raped and murdered woman and children in their Gods name.

"Kill'em all, and let God sort'em out" is adopted by the Marines and the Green Berets.

"Burn the Heretics and blasphemers in the name of our Lord Christ!"

Sounds familar to what the humans did to the elves thousands of years ago in Dragon Age and other real myths.

[Ophir147]

Germanic lore holds them as magical, fae like beings who made deals with humans, but do we feel compelled to follow the precedent that was set back then? Did Tolkien feel obliged to make his elves exactly how they were depicted in folk tales, where they were making pacts and offering Faustian bargains for a year and a day? Not exactly. So why should Bioware feel obliged to emulate their predecessors just because they came first?

[Lord Athena]

Maclimes wrote...

That's Tolkien's elves, not Thedas elves.

Tolkien's dwarves did not have females. Should Bioware have emulated Tolkien in that regard, as well?

No, these are all new elves. Not Tolkien, not D&D, not Keebler, but Dragon Age. And I have no problem with them having their own distinct look, background, and outlook from Tolkien elves.

I guess you just watched the films, there are female dwarves just like there are female ents.... read the books.... And BioWare did emulate Tolkien, just like Tolkien emulated old myths on a race we once worshiped before christianity destroyed it. Tolkien wanted to resurrect them as the race they were before dumb people like BioWare and Bethesda mocked them with their stupid desgins. But I guess it's their fantasy world so if they want dwarves as sex offenders and elves as transvestites fine.

[Lord Athena]

Ophir147 wrote...

Germanic lore holds them as magical, fae like beings who made deals with humans, but do we feel compelled to follow the precedent that was set back then? Did Tolkien feel obliged to make his elves exactly how they were depicted in folk tales, where they were making pacts and offering Faustian bargains for a year and a day? Not exactly. So why should Bioware feel obliged to emulate their predecessors just because they came first?

Actually Tolkien was obliged to follow the old myths. He respected the old myths and lores, he even states that he wanted to bring them back to the future generations before people made them a laughing joke. And even after his death, people still mock him and his legacy. I guess you failed Tolkien some people are just too ignorant to understand anything these days, sad but it's a fact.

Modifié par Lord Athena, 20 juillet 2012 - 06:38 .

[Ophir147]

Lord Athena wrote...


Actually Tolkien was obliged to follow the old myths. He respected the old myths and lores, he even states that he wanted to bring them back to the future generations before people made them a laughing joke. And even after his death, people still mock him and his legacy. I guess you failed Tolkien some people are just too ignorant to understand anything these days, sad but it's a fact.

Hey now listen here bub, it's not like I'm advocating a book burning of Tolkien's works. I own every single one of them, and I still take them out to read every now and then. I'm a huge Tolkien nerd, and the last thing I would want anyone to think is that I don't have an almost hero-worship-like respect for the man. And just because I don't believe we should keep copy-pasting his archetypes into every fantasy setting until the Sun swallows the Earth doesn't mean I'm mocking him.

I'm inclined to think you are a troll based on the logic of your above post, but you seem to be an earnest person who genuinely enjoys Tolkien and I can respect that. But your adoption of this issue as your own personal crusade is starting to chafe, and scare away people who actually want to have an intellectual conversation about the subject.

Modifié par Ophir147, 20 juillet 2012 - 06:45 .

[Lord Athena]

"In addition to these human aspects, they are commonly described as semi-divine beings associated with fertility and the cult of the ancestors and ancestor worship."

Just proving that we once worshiped them, became great friends with them, then eventually we turned into tyrants and grow jealous of them, then we raped and murdered them and destroyed all religion about them from history.

My dinner ready talk to you guys later....

[Xilizhra]

Lord Athena wrote...

"In addition to these human aspects, they are commonly described as semi-divine beings associated with fertility and the cult of the ancestors and ancestor worship."

Just proving that we once worshiped them, became great friends with them, then eventually we turned into tyrants and grow jealous of them, then we raped and murdered them and destroyed all religion about them from history.

My dinner ready talk to you guys later....

Um... I don't think elves actually existed, but that aside... well, to be honest, I don't have much of an opinion either way, but Merrill is absolutely gorgeous in DA2 and I wouldn't want to change anything about her.

[Maclimes]

Faerunner wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

That's Tolkien's elves, not Thedas elves.

Tolkien's dwarves did not have females. Should Bioware have emulated Tolkien in that regard, as well?

No, these are all new elves. Not Tolkien, not D&D, not Keebler, but Dragon Age. And I have no problem with them having their own distinct look, background, and outlook from Tolkien elves.

Same basic mythological creature though. Do you expect fictional species or races to be completely reinvented ever time someone creates a new book, movie or game? It kind of defeats the purpose of drawing inspiration from pre-established mythological creatures.

Of course not. But "completely reinventing" is not the same thing as "making distinct".

[Maclimes]

Lord Athena wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

That's Tolkien's elves, not Thedas elves.

Tolkien's dwarves did not have females. Should Bioware have emulated Tolkien in that regard, as well?

No, these are all new elves. Not Tolkien, not D&D, not Keebler, but Dragon Age. And I have no problem with them having their own distinct look, background, and outlook from Tolkien elves.

I guess you just watched the films, there are female dwarves just like there are female ents.... read the books.... And BioWare did emulate Tolkien, just like Tolkien emulated old myths on a race we once worshiped before christianity destroyed it. Tolkien wanted to resurrect them as the race they were before dumb people like BioWare and Bethesda mocked them with their stupid desgins. But I guess it's their fantasy world so if they want dwarves as sex offenders and elves as transvestites fine.

Don't get pedantic.

To be more clear: There's no outward visual difference between male and female dwarves in Tolkien's world. Female dwarves had gruff voices, bushy beards, and behave exactly as the males do.

If Bioware had simply copied Tolkien's work, all female dwarves would have beards. Would that be better?

[Lord Athena]

Don't get pedantic.

To be more clear: There's no outward visual difference between male and female dwarves in Tolkien's world. Female dwarves had gruff voices, bushy beards, and behave exactly as the males do.

If Bioware had simply copied Tolkien's work, all female dwarves would have beards. Would that be better?

Don't get  pedantic, I can't help it, once I start in a deep debate I have to show what I know. And the detail writen about this topic was needed so it is important.

That's because Tolkien didn't want to mention them in too much detail, he was too busy with the other family trees give the guy a break.... Maybe he felt it was not needed, so he just said that the dwarves were very protective of their wives and hide them. After they needed to travel they disguised them in their clothes and armour.

No they didn't have beards they were just mistaken for men, female knights were also mistaken for men are you going to tell me that we better not put them in because they are too tom-boy? And I really hate when people use the word "COPY" your saying it like it's a crime, like they just stole the work and put a BioWare logo on it.

Modifié par Lord Athena, 20 juillet 2012 - 07:39 .

[BKTZLNT]

I just hope they don't make the elves androgynous. Just because they are considered beautiful (probably because they remain youthful-looking) doesn't mean they should all look like petite women. Most did in DA2. I mean, Elves can wield a two-handed Buster sword. Their men shouldn't all look like 12-yr old girls.

And also, the women who fight two-handed should look like their arms wouldn't fly off just looking at a large blade.

This is just me though. Carry on.

[Lord Athena]

BKTZLNT wrote...

I just hope they don't make the elves androgynous. Just because they are considered beautiful (probably because they remain youthful-looking) doesn't mean they should all look like petite women. Most did in DA2. I mean, Elves can wield a two-handed Buster sword. Their men shouldn't all look like 12-yr old girls.

And also, the women who fight two-handed should look like their arms wouldn't fly off just looking at a large blade.

This is just me though. Carry on.

Agreed  Not all elves stay beautiful, it's well known that elves can age if they are depressed and some even commit suicide because of tragic event in their life. The men even grow facial hair, but that takes a long time to happen.

[Lord Athena]

I really like the designs for the Hellboy elves; badass Dark Elves! And its obvious that the King was once beauitful like his son, but after centruies of war and depression and losing your wife, who wouldn't look like a tired old man with a long beard? I'm sure if he regained his wife or something happy happened to him he would change back, kind of like how King Theoden turned from old depressed lost soul to a strong leader. Ok I know that was different but still...



Heres a gif for a change!

Modifié par Lord Athena, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:17 .

[Maclimes]

Lord Athena wrote...

Don't get  pedantic, I can't help it, once I start in a deep debate I have to show what I know. And the detail writen about this topic was needed so it is important.

That's because Tolkien didn't want to mention them in too much detail, he was too busy with the other family trees give the guy a break.... Maybe he felt it was not needed, so he just said that the dwarves were very protective of their wives and hide them. After they needed to travel they disguised them in their clothes and armour.

No they didn't have beards they were just mistaken for men, female knights were also mistaken for men are you going to tell me that we better not put them in because they are too tom-boy? And I really hate when people use the word "COPY" your saying it like it's a crime, like they just stole the work and put a BioWare logo on it.

Actually, in Tolkien's works, dwarven women did have beards. The race of Men assumed that dwarven women did not exist, because of their identical appearance to the dwarven men.

Here, for your reading:
http://tolkien.slimy...tml#DwarfBeards 

[Lord Athena]

BioWare Dev - "If I go, the elf dies! Elven redesigns are mine! Muhahaha!"



BioWare Fan - "Like hell you will! Eat Fan Power!, we won't buy the game until it's on re-sale!"



BioWare Dev - "Pre-owned....you wouldn't.....Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!"

That whats going to happen guys lol.

Modifié par Lord Athena, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:41 .

[Lord Athena]

Maclimes wrote...

Lord Athena wrote...

Don't get  pedantic, I can't help it, once I start in a deep debate I have to show what I know. And the detail writen about this topic was needed so it is important.

That's because Tolkien didn't want to mention them in too much detail, he was too busy with the other family trees give the guy a break.... Maybe he felt it was not needed, so he just said that the dwarves were very protective of their wives and hide them. After they needed to travel they disguised them in their clothes and armour.

No they didn't have beards they were just mistaken for men, female knights were also mistaken for men are you going to tell me that we better not put them in because they are too tom-boy? And I really hate when people use the word "COPY" your saying it like it's a crime, like they just stole the work and put a BioWare logo on it.

Actually, in Tolkien's works, dwarven women did have beards. The race of Men assumed that dwarven women did not exist, because of their identical appearance to the dwarven men.

Here, for your reading:
http://tolkien.slimy...tml#DwarfBeards 

Thats not really fact, unless Tolkien said it himself with quotes it is just speculation... But hey if people want to believe that, fine by me. And yes I saw that his son saying something about it being true, but unless Tolkien said it then it's alot of rubbish...

[Maclimes]

Lord Athena wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

Here, for your reading:
http://tolkien.slimy...tml#DwarfBeards 

Thats not really fact, unless Tolkien said it himself with quotes it is just speculation... But hey if people want to believe that, fine by me. And yes I saw that his son saying something about it being true, but unless Tolkien said it then it's alot of rubbish...

I guess you didn't actually read it.

In The War of the Jewels ("The LaterQuenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain", written ~1951), Tolkien wrote that "...no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame... For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..."