730 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Athena]

Fleshdress wrote...

Umm several times the elves themselves say they are sought after as servants and assassins because they are aesthetically pleasing. So they may have all the downplayed power or magic of just humans, but they are canonically supposed to be more attractive, and they are not so...  people actually have valid complaints about these more "alien" elf remakes.

Faerunner told them already, she quoted a whole post full of facts that Bioware adopted the Tolkien way with a twist and they keep on arguing that we are wrong. They are just fighting for the sake of it, it's like they want the elves to contradict the DA folklore. Just ignore them they are just idiots that want a battle, Fae got sick of their rubbish and i'm sick of their crap as well. 

Fact is guys the majority of us want Bioware to change the design to look as it says in their books and lore. 

The minority are siding with Bioware as if they are still a good company, as if they still know what is right for fans to enjoy. Fact is Bioware ruined DA2, just like they ruined SW TOR, same goes for ME3 and lets hope they don't ruin DA3.


 

[Lord Athena]

http://requireshate....ers-are-stupid/

^ Everybody that hate elves and think they are generic, leave this forum and join those biased fools and talk about how lame elves are.

Because i'm sick of hearing it when this forum is for wanting the change, not for haters to debate how wrong we are for wanting Bioware folklore to match with the race models they created in the first place.

Modifié par Lord Athena, 30 juillet 2012 - 06:35 .

[wsandista]

Is there some kind of rule now that elves must look radically different then humans?

[Lord Athena]

Faerunner wrote...

To be honest, I'd be willing to make the argument that BioWare made elves even LESS unique in DA2 than DA:O. Sure, they LOOK "different" (not that that's saying much) but their personalities, culture, and depictions are even closer to the stereotypical post-Tolkien fantasy elf depiction than DA:O. Less interesting, less unique. Just standard fantasy elves with weirder looking faces.

Exactly Fae, if Bioware wanted to make their elves more unique then all they had to do was create a deep dark drama full of twists and unexpected things. They should look at Game Of Thrones for inspiration for uniqueness, not bloody Bethesda. Thats what makes a good fantasy series unique, not this crap about changing how their faces and bodies look.

Standard fantasy elves are not bad. They are fine the way they are, they are not boring Tolkien generics. If you want to create a fantasy world full of wizards and elves and orcs etc you need to understand what makes a good fantasy? If you can understand that you will make a unique world with already classic races but with more believable characters that you want to clap and cheer for them to stay alive or the shocking things that happen to races or the things they do to survive.

"The same things that make good writing in any genre; SF, fantasy, crime, literary fiction, take your pick. You need originality, engaging characterisation, natural dialogue and vivid scene setting all held together with a coherent plot. Good writing addresses the tougher realities of life like sex and death, both of which are very difficult for the author. It takes serious work to convey the depth of emotions, the mix of sensation, without trivialising death in particular, which at some time or other is going to affect everyone."

It seems hard to recreate something new about elves when they have a thousand years of history behind them. A new face and body is not going to make people say WOW thats unique. If you think that your more dumber than I ever gave you credit for.
 

[Jademoon121]

[quote]Lord Athena wrote...[/quote]

[quote]And i'll say this once and only once! Stop telling me what to think and do! 

If you want to bend your knees to Bioware and accept whatever rubbish they give you thats fine by me. Just don't go telling me what's fact and what's not. I'm a consumer, I think it's my right to tell them what I want in the game when i'm giving them £40-50 for it and more. It's up to them to decide if they will act on it, thats what these forums are for. I'm sick of
you telling me "no they can't be this and that" Are you the author or something? Yeah didn't think so..... [/quote]


I didn't tell you want to think or do, I told you that this is what Bioware has in mind. Bioware made the elves the way they are, and they are going to stay that way unless if story or convention demands otherwise.

Believe or not, many people are sick and tired of the typical pefect and pretty elf. There is an appeal in taking a traditional trope, and turning it upon its head. What Bioware did to the elves is unique and original. Only one other setting has done this, in a market full of Quendi carbon copies.

No whether you like it or not, is your decision. You're free to play whatever game you want, with your money.



[qoute]Study research? Your the one who said quite clearly that the humans had a right to be noble due to their wealth and estates, (read your last post) you arguing that further was really pointless.[/quote]


If you can't understand the basics on the world and age Thedas is based upon, that's not my fault.

[quote]Sorry no I don't look at the Queen as my leader she has no power, maybe a thousand years ago. The government has the power and they are the leaders that decide what to do in wars and the state of the UK. You can say what you want but they are nothing to me but antique decorations.[/quote]


But they are still part and parcel to the entire ensamble. UK government features monarchs and nobles, even if they're nothing but legal ornaments.

[quote]And who said I want them all to be beautiful and perfect, your putting words in my mouth again. You seem to like to do that alot . If you even read stories about elves you would know they are not all beautiful and powerful; they are not Gods. They bleed and age and die, and alot of times bad things happen to them like everybody else. If you think Tolkien elves and all the rest are perfect you clearly didn't read the books hard enough.[/quote]


Yet you just love to post pictures and gifs of Quendi, Tel'Qussir, Eladrin, and all other elves from other settings that are roughly the same in every thread about Bioware's elves.

They are long-lived, magical, unearthly, and powerful. And before you say anything else, I have read the Silmarillion, the Book of Lost Tales, and other materials on the Eldar. I know their history, kindreds, culture, and nature. Yes, there is more to them that meets the eye, but still doesn't change the fact that nearly every other breed of elf in fantasy is either a copy, parody, or allusion to the Firstborn of Eru Illuvatar.

It's getting rather dull.

[quote]The story is not set in stones by the way, it can change. It doesn't say they are all dead? All it said was their city got destroyed and some fled and others became slaves, your making up facts again..... Oh my city got destroyed and that must mean everybody is dead.... BORING.... Where's the fun in that! Thank God your not a writer.... I don't see the Dalish being underdogs at all they are rebels not slaves.[/quote]


Thankfully then that I am not working for Bioware, and neither are you for that matter. They are Bioware's creation and they are free to do with them as they wish. I however am only giving an historical perspective; when the cultural heart of a civilixation is lost, they rarely recover.


[qoute]You can argue all you want, but it seems your just a bad dictator to me. You tell me whats right and wrong by your standards and if I say otherwise you will try very hard to prove i'am wrong. It's getting really boring now... I posted for others to read and to agree or not and think about new ideas for DA3 not for guys like you to debate that i'm wrong or incorrect.[/quote]


These are not my standards, these are the strictures of Bioware's setting and basic fantasy. If you don't like the fact that Bioware and other creators like to make elves ugly, foul, downtrodden, or simply odd, that's not mine or their fault.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 30 juillet 2012 - 10:46 .

[Lord Athena]

wsandista wrote...

Is there some kind of rule now that elves must look radically different then humans?

Apparently there is. They think that in order to make a good fantasy race it has to look different visually. I guess we better give all the races in every fantasy book, comic and movie a "BIOWARE MAKE OVER!" sigh....

[Lord Athena]

Jademoon121 wrote...

Yet you just love to post pictures and gifs of Quendi, Tel'Qussir, Eladrin, and all other elves from other settings that are roughly the same in every thread about Bioware's elves.

They are long-lived, magical, unearthly, and powerful. And before you say anything else, I have read the Silmarillion, the Book of Lost Tales, and other materials on the Eldar. I know their history, kindreds, culture, and nature. Yes, there is more to them that meets the eye, but still doesn't change the fact that nearly every other breed of elf in fantasy is either a copy, parody, or allusion to the Firstborn of Eru Illuvatar.

It's getting rather dull.

Oh you read the Silmarillion? Because your saying Tolkien elves are perfect and all powerful? I guess you missed the Kinslaying, when they killed and murdered each other or the fall of Gondolin? How about Maeglin, was he all powerful and morally good? Was his father good? He kidnapped his mother and then tried to murder his son and instead killed his wife, was that a perfect elf for you? Or how about the High King that became oppsessed over the silmarillion or Thingol who got murdered by the dwarves? He was really powerful and unearthly wasn't he? And the Noldor were very nice people that they declared war on King Dior and murdered him and his wife Nimloth and took his sons in the woods and left them to die. Yeah the Tolkien elves are really saints and the light shines out their hair like super models..... 


You are clearly a dirty bad lier or you read the book, but didn't understand anything about it. Or is it both? Also some of them killed themselves because they grew tired of the world or are upset. Immortality doesn't make you a God, stop talking as if it does.

No it's not getting really dull, you and your crap is getting really dull. Bioware choose that path at the start so live with it! If you think fantasy and elves are dull thats your problem not mine, no one is asking you to play them. It has been that way for a thousand years. Same for all the other races, wizards, wraiths, ghosts, shades, orcs, zombies, vampires, dragons they are all share the same backgrounds and changing their bodies to look weird is not unique you idiot. I give up you can go talk rubbish to somebody else. 


Redesigns don't make a good fantasy and if you think that you are a dumb person, simply as that. Other elves are copy/parody? Eh incase you hadn't noticed Bioware did that, they copied rally badly. And if you think all the other elves are just copies you have not read elven books I have read.

Modifié par Lord Athena, 30 juillet 2012 - 11:41 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

wsandista wrote...

Is there some kind of rule now that elves must look radically different then humans?

No. But apparently there is a rule that they MUST look a certain way. That's what I gather from Lord Athena's tantrums.

But luckily for people who enjoy creative freedom (like me! ) see the benefit of artists trying something different for a change.

[The Hierophant]

@ Lord Athena - I highly doubt Bioware is changing the elven design, the devs seemed adamant on keeping the current system. The best you could hope for is some tweaks on their design.

Also you shouldn't call people names because their opinion is different from yours.(It's a bannable offense.) The only concrete fact about the appearance of DA elves, is that Bioware retconned their appearance from DA:O which creates a discontinuity. Remember it's all opinion backed rarely by facts, so don't take it so seriously.

<Trollface> Elves are overrated, so long live Anomander Rake - Anomandaris Purake, Lord of Moon's Spawn, Son of Darkness, Knight of High House Dark, Mane of Chaos, and the Blacksword.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:18 .

[FieryDove]

I just hope in 3 they can be consistant with the design they want. Having some look like humans with pointy ears, some halla heads and some in-between...the designs are all over the place.



Perhaps when tweaked Fenris will look like this:



Also if they do change elves much more the lore should be totally retconned. That includes human + elf offspring = human. If they are too different from humans they should not be able to have children at all. all imho no need to yell at me...or anyone.

[TEWR]

In regards to what I saw on the previous page and pages before it: I see all sensible discourse went out the window with a set of concrete blocks chained to its feet, causing it to fall towards the depths of Oblivion.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 juillet 2012 - 04:05 .

[Huntress]

wsandista wrote...

Is there some kind of rule now that elves must look radically different then humans?

Yes, the people who  knows nothing about elves want the elves to look different that humans, they have no clue that elves are:
1) Humanoids
2) More beautiful or as beautiful as human.
3) Humans feel attracted to them.

Da2 elves are the ugliest things I have ever seen, Merril, fenris and the rest.. ewww  thanks to mods  few were made more eye candy. Oh and Skyrim elves are ugly too but mods made them very beautiful.

Warden:


Merril


Skyrim

[Xilizhra]

DA2 took all of these interesting observations and stomped on them. Trying to live more in harmony with nature is no longer a cultural value, suddenly it's inherent in the elves' genetics. "Nature vs. Nurture"? "All people are the same no matter where you go"? What's that? Elves and dwarves are just fantasy races and they embody fantasy race stereotypes regardless of their upbringing and that's just how they are.

Wait, when did this become genetic? I certainly don't see much being in tune with nature from Fenris...

[Wrathion]

Huntress wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Is there some kind of rule now that elves must look radically different then humans?

Yes, the people who  knows nothing about elves want the elves to look different that humans, they have no clue that elves are:
1) Humanoids
2) More beautiful or as beautiful as human.
3) Humans feel attracted to them.

1.When did the game say elves were humaniod? Source plskthx
2. I really don't remember the game saying that. Source plskthx
3. This doesn't prove your point. just fyi

Pic1, That elf is modded to death.
Pic2, That elf is modded to death.
Pic3, that elf is modded to death.

So apparently, even "perfect" humanoid elves from DAO aren't pretty enough for you. Okay then.

And wow, Athena you are still on this calm it down.

FieryDove wrote...

I just hope in 3 they can be consistant with the design they want. Having some look like humans with pointy ears, some halla heads and some in-between...the designs are all over the place.



Perhaps when tweaked Fenris will look like this:

You know...not all people look the same right? It's realistic that a race of people will have different facial structures. If some of them look like humans with huge pointed ears...that's cool, if some of them look like Halla...that's cool too.
But I guess all of them being flawless and pretty with one facial structure is totes' realistic and awesome as long as I find them personally attractive. :I

That Fenris is hot...is he on the Nexus?

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 31 juillet 2012 - 04:38 .

[Xilizhra]

1.When did the game say elves were humaniod? Source plskthx

To be honest, it's hard to get more "humanoid" than "reproductively viable with humans."

[Wrathion]

Xilizhra wrote...

1.When did the game say elves were humaniod? Source plskthx

To be honest, it's hard to get more "humanoid" than "reproductively viable with humans."

Haha, guess you're right. XD
But...it still has nothing to do with the elves physical appearance.

[Sealy]

Lord Athena wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...

Umm several times the elves themselves say they are sought after as servants and assassins because they are aesthetically pleasing. So they may have all the downplayed power or magic of just humans, but they are canonically supposed to be more attractive, and they are not so...  people actually have valid complaints about these more "alien" elf remakes.

Faerunner told them already, she quoted a whole post full of facts that Bioware adopted the Tolkien way with a twist and they keep on arguing that we are wrong. They are just fighting for the sake of it, it's like they want the elves to contradict the DA folklore. Just ignore them they are just idiots that want a battle, Fae got sick of their rubbish and i'm sick of their crap as well. 

Fact is guys the majority of us want Bioware to change the design to look as it says in their books and lore. 

The minority are siding with Bioware as if they are still a good company, as if they still know what is right for fans to enjoy. Fact is Bioware ruined DA2, just like they ruined SW TOR, same goes for ME3 and lets hope they don't ruin DA3.


 

I disagree they are merely giving their opinion and it shows a lack of actually listening to others in debates to resort to calling someone stupid just because they don't agree with you, it also destroys the how serious people can take your own arguments.

Do I want the elves recreated? Yah, a little. I love attractive things, I want to like the way my LI's look. Thats not bad, or uncreative of me, everyone wants to like the way a LI looks. I took me a long time to get used to Fenris' looks and eventually you learn to love them for their personality. On that note, I adored and romanced Garrus and Thane in ME2 and they are not your typical "hot" I think if we saw more of the new elves we would probably learn to love them, I learned to love and think Fen, Merrill and Marathari were good looking, but since I don't think we will be seeing a ton more elves a little tweaking to take away some of their "omg what is that!" factor would be nice. 

Seems I am part of the majorty that want a revamp and the minority that think Bioware is still golden. I liked DA2, play it even now, loved ME3, still playing the multiplayer when I get bored of DA2, and I never played any of the SW games but I heard from my friend that they are really good.   

[Lord Athena]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Is there some kind of rule now that elves must look radically different then humans?

No. But apparently there is a rule that they MUST look a certain way. That's what I gather from Lord Athena's tantrums.

But luckily for people who enjoy creative freedom (like me! ) see the benefit of artists trying something different for a change.

No i'm not having a tantrum, i'm just telling you that your wrong about every fantasy elf that you call generic and boring. I also argued that changing a character/race apperance doesn't make the fantasy more unique. Whats different about the artists work? Tell me? They look like really bad humans that look like deformed models with really bad pointy ears, I have seen those elves before in other peoples works.

Apparently they must all look different for you, so don't dare say I want elves to look like super humans when I never said that. All I said was they should at least have some sort of proper face and body structure.

And that last comment was uncalled for? Whats that suppose to mean that other people that don't agree with you don't respect artists work? I'm an artist too and if people tell me my work looks bad I don't cry about it like you do and say I want to be different. I take the feedback and try again so most people like it, thats all i'm doing right now.

And if I called someone an "idiot" I had a good reason to do so, don't start pointing a finger at me like i'm a bad person. If Jademoon wants to start name calling my posts and quoting my argument has no vaild right to be here,  I have the right to defend my case and I don't need people like you interfering ok.

[Lord Athena]

The Hierophant wrote...

@ Lord Athena - I highly doubt Bioware is changing the elven design, the devs seemed adamant on keeping the current system. The best you could hope for is some tweaks on their design.

Also you shouldn't call people names because their opinion is different from yours.(It's a bannable offense.) The only concrete fact about the appearance of DA elves, is that Bioware retconned their appearance from DA:O which creates a discontinuity. Remember it's all opinion backed rarely by facts, so don't take it so seriously.

<Trollface> Elves are overrated, so long live Anomander Rake - Anomandaris Purake, Lord of Moon's Spawn, Son of Darkness, Knight of High House Dark, Mane of Chaos, and the Blacksword.

The Hierophant why you think i'm calling him an "idiot" ask yourself that question a thousand times and give me an answer? Also if you look a couple of pages back you can see that Jademoon is not innocent. I'm pretty sure he named called me a few things, what was it again? Oh yeah "child" and telling me I should go read the basis of medieval studies. 

:bandit:Calling someone a fool shouldn't be a bannable offence. I have been called worst names than that on youtube, did anybody help me then? Nope. I'm sure you can pardon me for my horrible crime just this once.

It's hard not to take it seriously when Jademoon and others are quoting every opinion I make?

[Lord Athena]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...



And wow, Athena you are still on this calm it down.

Kinda hard when you, Jademoon121, EpicBoot2daFace and The Hierophant are always quoting every opinion I make. And i'm not the one who starts the name calling thats usually you guys. I didn't want to always come on this discussion to see that every post I make is quoted by you and then you keep doing it until I snap at you.

Jademoon121 did that and thats why I snaped back, it's hard not to call someone a fool when he is always insulting every other fantasy genre and opinion you make and at the same time name calling you. I guess I feel into the trap and started a feud. 

[Sealy]

Lord Athena wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Is there some kind of rule now that elves must look radically different then humans?

No. But apparently there is a rule that they MUST look a certain way. That's what I gather from Lord Athena's tantrums.

But luckily for people who enjoy creative freedom (like me! ) see the benefit of artists trying something different for a change.

No i'm not having a tantrum, i'm just telling you that your wrong about every fantasy elf that you call generic and boring. I also argued that changing a character/race apperance doesn't make the fantasy more unique. Whats different about the artists work? Tell me? They look like really bad humans that look like deformed models with really bad pointy ears, I have seen those elves before in other peoples works.

Apparently they must all look different for you, so don't dare say I want elves to look like super humans when I never said that. All I said was they should at least have some sort of proper face and body structure.

I agree with the italicized bits. I mean even if you are pulling for an artists right I agree but you have to admit most of the re-made elves don't look just different, they look scary. I don't mind them staying this way but if so Bioware should probably stop portraying them in lore as pretty little things that human love to hate.

And that last comment was uncalled for? Whats that suppose to mean that other people that don't agree with you don't respect artists work? I'm an artist too and if people tell me my work looks bad I don't cry about it like you do and say I want to be different. I take the feedback and try again so most people like it, thats all i'm doing right now.

That called pandering to the masses, I wouldn't if I were you. I mean if you create something your proud of and you like it shouldn't matter what other people think. Now in Biowares case they kinda still need to pander since they aren't just trying to make art they can be proud of they also want our money.  

And if I called someone an "idiot" I had a good reason to do so, don't start pointing a finger at me like i'm a bad person. If Jademoon wants to start name calling my posts and quoting my argument has no vaild right to be here,  I have the right to defend my case and I don't need people like you interfering ok.

I am not saying your a bad person, I am saying that name calling should really be a last resort in any intelligent conversation. I mean we're all aldults here (I think), have access to a vast vocabulary and the ability to agree to disagree. Most of the time... unless someone is calling out one of the character I love, or thinks about being mean about a character I love. Or thinks about thinking about it! Aaarrrgg! *hulk smash* You're all so dumb!

[Lord Athena]

Fleshdress wrote...


 
I disagree they are merely giving their opinion and it shows a lack of actually listening to others in debates to resort to calling someone stupid just because they don't agree with you, it also destroys the how serious people can take your own arguments.

Actually listening to others? wow, how can you expect people to agree with your debates when others are also name calling and at the same time quoting that they are wrong and insulting every fantasy genre just so you can say Bioware elves are unique? Me and some of the others are just voicing our opinions as well. So don't act as if your a saint and preach whats right and wrong to me.

I'm sure name calling people "child" and "d**k riding hard" and telling people they should go and read wikipedia and research before making yourself "stupid" and studing the basis of medieval studies before posting is pretty offence too.

Why you think I snap so easily when you guys say things like that? If you don't want me to insult you don't to it to me and show some respect to other fantasy genres instead calling them generic, boring, illusion, parody, fake, bad copies. How can I listen to someone that name calls other great fantasy works? Seriously think about that before you start pointing a finger, look at yourself first and tell me your not guilty? 

Modifié par Lord Athena, 31 juillet 2012 - 04:59 .

[Lord Athena]

Fleshdress wrote...


I am not saying your a bad person, I am saying that name calling should really be a last resort in any intelligent conversation. I mean we're all aldults here (I think), have access to a vast vocabulary and the ability to agree to disagree. Most of the time... unless someone is calling out one of the character I love, or thinks about being mean about a character I love. Or thinks about thinking about it! Aaarrrgg! *hulk smash* You're all so dumb!

"aldults" are you sure you have access to a vast vocabulary? Lol  I'm sorry i'am being a grammar **** and I make mistakes too, but I had too do it. It was too ironic not to...... Forgive me......

[Huntress]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...


1.When did the game say elves were humaniod? Source plskthx
2. I really don't remember the game saying that. Source plskthx
3. This doesn't prove your point. just fyi

Pic1, That elf is modded to death.
Pic2, That elf is modded to death.
Pic3, that elf is modded to death.

So apparently, even "perfect" humanoid elves from DAO aren't pretty enough for you. Okay then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf
Old Norse The earliest preserved descriptions of elves comes from Norse mythology. In Old Norse they are called álfar (nominative singular álfr).

Men could be elevated to the rank of elves after death, such as the petty king Olaf Geirstad-Elf. The smith hero Völundr is identified as 'Ruler of Elves' (vísi álfa) and 'One among the Elven Folk' (álfa ljóði), in the poem Völundarkviða, whose later prose introduction also identifies him as the son of a king of 'Finnar', an Arctic people respected for their shamanic magic (most likely, the sami). In the Thidrek's Saga a human queen is surprised to learn that the lover who has made her pregnant is an elf and not a man. In the saga of Hrolf Kraki a king named Helgi rapes and impregnates an elf-woman clad in silk who is the most beautiful woman he has ever seen.

Crossbreeding was possible between elves and humans in the Old Norse belief.

Fantasy fiction
Main article: Elves in fantasy fiction and games

The fantasy genre in the 20th century grows out of 19th century Romanticism. 19th century scholars such as Andrew Lang and the Grimm brothers collected "fairy-stories" from popular folklore and in some cases retold them freely. A pioneering work of the genre was The King of Elfland's Daughter, a 1924 novel by Lord Dunsany. The Hobbit by J. R. R. Tolkien (1937) is seminal, predating the lecture On Fairy-Stories by the same author by a few years. In the 1939 lecture, Tolkien introduced the term "fantasy" in a sense of "higher form of Art, indeed the most nearly pure form, and so (when achieved) the most potent". Elves played a central role in Tolkien's legendarium, notably The Silmarillion. Tolkien's writing has such popularity that in the 1960s and afterwards, elves speaking an elvish language similar to those in Tolkien's novels (like Quenya, and Sindarin) became staple non-human characters in high fantasy works and in fantasy role-playing games.

Post-Tolkien fantasy elves (popularized by the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game) tend to be more beautiful and wiser than humans, with sharper senses and perceptions. They are said to be gifted in magic, mentally sharp and lovers of nature, art, and song. They are often skilled archers. A hallmark of many fantasy elves is their pointed ears.