730 réponses à ce sujet

[Alikain]

this is the one reason if the warden make its way back into DA3 am not play my elf who is my avatar pic. yes i made her ears shorter. i didn't want to go back looking like a nightelf. the elves in DA2 are just horrendous and needs some real love.

[Jademoon121]

Faerunner wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

They look much better in DA2 than DA:O. To Me. Now, I'm not arguing that they don't look like anorexic cows. But I'd rather that than the bland-y bland render in DA:O.

To each their own. I prefer the simple, elegant design of the DA:O elves over the hideous, bizzare elves of DA2.

rapscallioness wrote...

As far as DA2 and why humans and elves didn't get along, there were definitely racial overtones, but I got the sense it came more from a long history of war. Fighting for territory.

Humans have treated elves like animals to expoit since the first game. Turning around and making the elves look and move like animals creates some unfortunate similarities in my mind. The relationship between humans and elves no longer feels like a majority group subjugating, exploiting and discriminating against another for having different physical and cultural features, but farmers yoking farm animals.

Every time I saw a shabby city elf, I half expected a human to walk up and tie a harness around their neck and place a sack of oats near their mouth. Every time I saw the Dalish elves, literally the first word to pop into my mind was "venison." That's not the type of imagry one wants to associate with a race that was treated like real-world minorities in the game before.

That's probably intentional, being slaves once upon a time, and woodland dwellers before then. That's how imperialist powers treated their victims; as sub-human. Except, no matter how they look, Elves aren't human. I agree, they look too bestial, but they're not all man-dokneys. I still think if you make their current "elfishness" more subtle, they'd look amazing.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 29 juin 2012 - 10:48 .

[rapscallioness]

Faerunner wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

They look much better in DA2 than DA:O. To Me. Now, I'm not arguing that they don't look like anorexic cows. But I'd rather that than the bland-y bland render in DA:O.

To each their own. I prefer the simple, elegant design of the DA:O elves over the hideous, bizzare elves of DA2.

rapscallioness wrote...

As far as DA2 and why humans and elves didn't get along, there were definitely racial overtones, but I got the sense it came more from a long history of war. Fighting for territory.

Humans have treated elves like animals to expoit since the first game. Turning around and making the elves look and move like animals creates some unfortunate similarities in my mind. The relationship between humans and elves no longer feels like a majority group subjugating, exploiting and discriminating against another for having different physical and cultural features, but farmers yoking farm animals.

Every time I saw a shabby city elf, I half expected a human to walk up and tie a harness around their neck and place a sack of oats near their mouth. Every time I saw the Dalish elves, literally the first word to pop into my mind was "venison." That's not the type of imagry one wants to associate with a race that was treated like real-world minorities in the game before.

Yes, to each their own, then. Because I don't think they're hideous, or bizarre looking. You think  they're more elegant in DAO because they look more human. That's your preference, but that doesn't make it more elegant. Simple, yes. It's a very simple design, indeed.

And no, while I was playing DA2, I never once looked at them and thought they looked like animals. I didn't look at Merrill and think someone was about to yoke her. I didn't look at the father pleading for his abducted daughter and think, "Gaw. Someone's about to come and stuff some hay in your mouth." I only saw a distraught father. I didn't talk to Keeper Merethari and thought she looked like an animal.

What are you even thinking about? If they look less human they're now hideous and bizarre looking? They're animals?

If you just want to role play a hot looking, elf PC, then just say so. I can understand that.

This started off very simply. I think the art design of the Elves in DAO is boring. For a fantasy video game series, I would hope they could come up with a design that's more interesting.

[Nefla]

A weird design doesn't mean an interesting design to me. They could make elves look like a giant ham sandwich, NO ONE has ever done that before! Just because it's weird doesn't mean it's good. In DA2 they took away what was actually interesting about elves: their past, culture, how they were treated as second class citizens, etc...In DA2 this is sort of mentioned a few times but you never see it. The closest thing is that merchant Elton saying the guards wont help him because he's an elf (which is not true, it's because the pedo is the magistrate's son). In the city elf origin in DA:O, Elton's life seems like a dream of equality. It's odd that they retconned elves into being ugly beasts when in DA:O they were always referred to as beautiful, appealing, etc...

Also if they're going to go out there and say "we want to make ugly elves that no one has ever seen before so they don't look like elves" (instead they look like a cheap ripoff of Avatar...) then they should make the proportions believable at least. That picture of Merril and Hawke after the romance scene makes me want to throw up. She's so twisted and misproportioned, her neck is way too long and a normal thickness while her legs and arms are a normal length and as big around as a toilet paper tube. And she's by far the prettiest/most normal looking female elf.

[rapscallioness]

Nefla wrote...

A weird design doesn't mean an interesting design to me. They could make elves look like a giant ham sandwich, NO ONE has ever done that before! Just because it's weird doesn't mean it's good. In DA2 they took away what was actually interesting about elves: their past, culture, how they were treated as second class citizens, etc...In DA2 this is sort of mentioned a few times but you never see it. The closest thing is that merchant Elton saying the guards wont help him because he's an elf (which is not true, it's because the pedo is the magistrate's son). In the city elf origin in DA:O, Elton's life seems like a dream of equality. It's odd that they retconned elves into being ugly beasts when in DA:O they were always referred to as beautiful, appealing, etc...

Also if they're going to go out there and say "we want to make ugly elves that no one has ever seen before so they don't look like elves" (instead they look like a cheap ripoff of Avatar...) then they should make the proportions believable at least. That picture of Merril and Hawke after the romance scene makes me want to throw up. She's so twisted and misproportioned, her neck is way too long and a normal thickness while her legs and arms are a normal length and as big around as a toilet paper tube. And she's by far the prettiest/most normal looking female elf.

A more interesting design doesn't mean a weird design.

As far as their past and culture not being fully addressed in DA2, I won't argue with you there. But I was talking about what they look like. The art design.

And I don't think they tried to make them ugly. I think  they tried to make them more distinct. Like the change between Sten in DA:O and The Qunari in DA2. Much better.

So what of the Elves are ugly, in your opinion, anyway?

[blaidfiste]

Xenofire wrote...




 

That neck is killing me.  It's not as bad in her other gear because she's wearing a scarf.  I have no other issues with the new elf design.

[rapscallioness]

@faerunner: they do look more fawn like, but you're the one associating a derogatory perception with that. You're the one that sees "dirty animals". They don't conform to your idea of beauty. An idea you would impose on them. So, they're dirty animals to you. That sounds like a personal problem.

Yes, to me anything other than DAO's design of elves is automatically better. It was a bland, boring, unimaginative design.

And then? So what. You want to argue back and forth with me about what I think is better? Show me the error of my ways because it's not what you think?

I do not want you to have your wish. I do not want them to go back to the suburban mom elf look. If they improve on the design, great. But no, I don't want them to go back to that generic design.

You want to RP an attractive elf as a PC. Cool. Me, too. That I understand. It's the only real thing you've said.

All this extrapolation, and correlation of the art design with some blow to the progress of minorities everywhere in the real, larger society..it's too much. You read too much into it, I say.

Especially considering that you're the one that harbors the negative view. You look at them; you see hideous animals...and the first thing you think of is minorities in the real world?

I see Elves. Elves that look a darn sight better than the generic stuff they tried to pass off in DA:O.

Let them improve on it if they care to, but I do not want to go back to the human looking Elves. That's it. Period.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Honestly the elves of Dragon Age 2 still have many similarities to a human. For one, while their facial features are different, they still have some similarities with humans in terms of skin colour and sharing the same anatomy and features (just differently propotioned). The main differences that elves have is the face being structured differently. For example the elves have larged foreheads, larger eyes and flat noses but they still have a human look about them. It's the ridiculously over-sized ears and disproportionate bodies which really seperate them from a human but other than that, they're still humans but this time, just humans with big pointy ears, retracted cheeks and smaller disproportionated bodies.

The elves of Dragon Age 2 are grotesque and there's simply nothing believable about them. I have a hard time believing anyone could engage in battle and other excercises with that incorrect anatomy. I have a hard time believing that a match stick man could pick up a two handed sword that is bigger than he is.

It's not about people wanting to play as pretty elves as so many people seem to think. Most people will create handsome/pretty characters for any race and if humans were slaughtered in appearance the same way that elves were, people would still have complained. In fact I think a lot of us have mispoken. The DA2 elves aren't ugly. They're surreal.

Most people who defend their looks use the argument "they no longer look exactly like humans and therefore I'm fine with them" which is kinda of what this topic is about. Elves can be made to look less human and yet come out looking believable and real. The horned Kossith actually have a good look and they don't look remotely related to humans. This was achieved by giving them completely different bodies, horns, white hair, different colored skin and faces/heads which suited their bodies. I wouldn't consider any Kossith attractive but they look right, believable and accurately propotioned. Suffice to say, they don't look out of place, elves however do.

Again I think it's all down to how everything was rushed out. I'm hoping that with a little more time this time, the elves will look better.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 30 juin 2012 - 08:14 .

[LobselVith8]

Alikain wrote...

this is the one reason if the warden make its way back into DA3 am not play my elf who is my avatar pic. yes i made her ears shorter. i didn't want to go back looking like a nightelf. the elves in DA2 are just horrendous and needs some real love.

I'm not looking to see my Warden have a 'bad' experience like Zevran if they plan on importing Wardens into Dragon Age III for a cameo scene. And I was wondering if they dropped having some elves with darker skin tones (like we see with the Antivans and the Rivani). I don't recall seeing any elves in the Sabrae clan who had darker skin tones.

[rapscallioness]

Well, I thought the Kossith were easy on the eyes.

But okay, fair enough. I was never wed to their appearance in DA2, I just really did not want to revert back to the DA:O design.

All the creatures in BW games have human characteristics, except for the Hanar...but..yeah.

I've never actually seen a real Elf, so I wouldn't know what exactly is more believable and real. Misproportioned? Perhaps. I'll have to look again. But then my F!Hawke warrior slugs around a sword that is bigger than she is..with toothpick arms. So...some things, you just accept that you're playing a video game.

I'm not against them refining the design. I simply think they look better than they did in DA:O. I think it was an improvement.

[rapscallioness]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Bioware wanted elves to look unique rather than like smaller humans with pointed ears but then they produced those weird ugly looking elves. I would prefer if elves in DA3 looked more like the elves from the Forgotten Realms. Look at Neverwinter Nights for example, elves are smaller than humans, skinnier and their facial features are more exotic. Here are some elf portraits from NWN:

  

 
 
And one from BG2:

 

I think this is the route Bioware was trying to go with DA2 but the elves turned out weird looking...well at least most of them. Merill and Fenris looked good.

These are some good designs, Elton.

I think I like the blue ones best. The red eyes are interesting. The last one is alright. She has the more fawn like eye thing going on. Only thing she's missing is the wide nose bridge. But the eyes at least are different.

Their bodies (the blue ones) are more typically human proportioned. From what I can see anyway.

[rapscallioness]

or this: (especially the male one)



or:



(There. I've made my contribution..laterz)

[Jademoon121]

Faerunner wrote...

Jademoon121 wrote...

That's probably intentional, being slaves once upon a time, and woodland dwellers before then. That's how imperialist powers treated their victims; as sub-human. Except, no matter how they look, Elves aren't human. I agree, they look too bestial, but they're not all man-dokneys. I still think if you make their current "elfishness" more subtle, they'd look amazing.

I know it's how humans treat elves in-game, but I don't think it should be how developers portray elves outside the game. When Vaughan, Howe or some other racist ****** makes degrading comments about elves being little more than animals in DA:O, the player is supposed to seethe about how untrue it is. (Warden: "I may be elven, but I'm more than that: I'm a person.") DA2 rolls around and if you hear the same comment, the player shouldn't be able to tilt their head and say, "Yep, I can see it."

I'm all for more subtle "elfy" designs. I prefer how they were portrayed in DA:O, but I can compromise as long as they stop looking like hideous, anorexic, malformed livestock with hydrocephalus. (I keep using those words, but they feel so true.)

Except they don't see it, Hawke can still be a supporter for Elves if the player wants him or her to do so. There's nothing wrong in looking a bit bestial, its only when said traits overcome their "humanity" which I agree with you.

[Eternal Phoenix]

rapscallioness wrote...

Well, I thought the Kossith were easy on the eyes.

But okay, fair enough. I was never wed to their appearance in DA2, I just really did not want to revert back to the DA:O design.

All the creatures in BW games have human characteristics, except for the Hanar...but..yeah.

I've never actually seen a real Elf, so I wouldn't know what exactly is more believable and real. Misproportioned? Perhaps. I'll have to look again. But then my F!Hawke warrior slugs around a sword that is bigger than she is..with toothpick arms. So...some things, you just accept that you're playing a video game.

I'm not against them refining the design. I simply think they look better than they did in DA:O. I think it was an improvement.

Well what I meant by "real" was something that can be looked upon and thought as being real. Dwarves with small bodies but big giant heads that their bodies shouldn't be able to hold upright isn't something that could be considered realistic or believable. Thankfully no such thing exists with the DA universe...yet anyway. With the elves, you get skinny creatures with teenage body builds. There's no way any of them could be warriors. Then there's those scenes with Merrill twisting her neck...

Rumors suggest DA3 is being made with the Frostbite engine (no idea if this is true though) which could mean that elves come out looking better this time. I think most of the graphical problems with DA2 were down to the engine. I mean when you look at the faces of characters, they look less detailed than people's faces do in Origins.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Alikain wrote...

this is the one reason if the warden make its way back into DA3 am not play my elf who is my avatar pic. yes i made her ears shorter. i didn't want to go back looking like a nightelf. the elves in DA2 are just horrendous and needs some real love.

I'm not looking to see my Warden have a 'bad' experience like Zevran if they plan on importing Wardens into Dragon Age III for a cameo scene. And I was wondering if they dropped having some elves with darker skin tones (like we see with the Antivans and the Rivani). I don't recall seeing any elves in the Sabrae clan who had darker skin tones.

Ineria.

[Nefla]

As ugly as the DA2 elves are, they are not original in the slightest. The artists were obviously inspired by Avatar but couldn't quite polish the designs enough to look good.

DA2 elves:
-Thin bodies
-Narrow shoulders
-Huge eyes with very large iris
-Wide nose bridge
-Flat nose
-Long neck

Avatar people:
-Thin bodies
-Narrow shoulders
-Huge eyes with very large iris
-Wide nose bridge
-Flat nose
-Long neck

Except the Avatar designs are polished and well done. The necks are long, but not so long to where it doesn't make sense, the bodies are thin but look like something a real creature could have (you need room for bone, muscle, and organs) The faces are exotic but well proportioned and don't have pointlessly hollowed out cheeks with huge cheekbones.



Like I said before, I wouldn't be bothered by elves being ugly if:
-Their look made sense and didn't just look badly done/misproportioned
-They were supposed to be ugly and people didn't refer to them as graceful/attractive/whatever (I used Batarians from ME as an example before, I don't care that Batarians are ugly, they were always that way and not meant to be attractive to humans) It would be interesting to have a race that other races think of as ugly.
-They were ugly from the start rather than being a retcon. (I wish they had never shown that cameo of Zevran in DA2)

[CELL55]

They did seem to have disproportionately longer necks in DA2 than in DAO. Thank the Maker Merril wore a scarf to offset this, because all of the other elves constantly reminded me of giraffes.

[Jerrybnsn]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Bioware wanted elves to look unique rather than like smaller humans with pointed ears but then they produced those weird ugly looking elves. I would prefer if elves in DA3 looked more like the elves from the Forgotten Realms. Look at Neverwinter Nights for example, elves are smaller than humans, skinnier and their facial features are more exotic. Here are some elf portraits from NWN:


 
And one from BG2:

 

I think this is the route Bioware was trying to go with DA2 but the elves turned out weird looking...well at least most of them. Merill and Fenris looked good.

If you look at Aeriel's features, only her nose, eyes and ears have been altered.  The rest of her makeup is purely human looking.  DA2 elves foreheads were made into lightbulbs and the bridge of the nose was extended all the way up the forehead like the Na'vi. And also the ears were made to droop like goblins.  So for the new game they went overkill in the distinctive aspect for the elves.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:15 .

[Nefla]

CELL55 wrote...

They did seem to have disproportionately longer necks in DA2 than in DAO. Thank the Maker Merril wore a scarf to offset this, because all of the other elves constantly reminded me of giraffes.

I'm thankful that Fenris' armour hides his almost certainly toddler-like shoulders.

[WardenWade]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Alikain wrote...

this
is the one reason if the warden make its way back into DA3 am not play
my elf who is my avatar pic. yes i made her ears shorter. i didn't want
to go back looking like a nightelf. the elves in DA2 are just horrendous
and needs some real love.

I'm not looking to see my
Warden have a 'bad' experience like Zevran if they plan on importing
Wardens into Dragon Age III for a cameo scene. And I was wondering if
they dropped having some elves with darker skin tones (like we see with
the Antivans and the Rivani). I don't recall seeing any elves in the
Sabrae clan who had darker skin tones.

Ineria.

Though not a Dalish, Adaia from Leliana's Song/Tabris origin as well...

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

Modifié par WardenWade, 02 juillet 2012 - 02:17 .

[Realmzmaster]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Bioware wanted elves to look unique rather than like smaller humans with pointed ears but then they produced those weird ugly looking elves. I would prefer if elves in DA3 looked more like the elves from the Forgotten Realms. Look at Neverwinter Nights for example, elves are smaller than humans, skinnier and their facial features are more exotic. Here are some elf portraits from NWN:


 
And one from BG2:

 

I think this is the route Bioware was trying to go with DA2 but the elves turned out weird looking...well at least most of them. Merill and Fenris looked good.

If you look at Aeriel's features, only her nose, eyes and ears have been altered.  The rest of her makeup is purely human looking.  DA2 elves foreheads were made into lightbulbs and the bridge of the nose was extended all the way up the forehead like the Na'vi. And also the ears were made to droop like goblins.  So for the new game they went overkill in the distinctive aspect for the elves.

That is not Aerie. The elf pictured is Jaheria from BG2. Jaheria also has a different look in BG1. Jaheria is a half-elf. She is part human.

[Sidney]

I'm less concerned with keeping the DA2 elf and more concerned to not get the "thin people with pointy ears" generic as all get out DAO elves. The DA2 elves at least looked like something different than humans. Compare ****** sapiens and ****** heidelbergensis or ****** neanderthalensis (direct ancestor and sub-species) and they're not pretty and might even be considered grotesque. These things should look different.