25 réponses à ce sujet

[Marko GW]

I wholeheartedly agree with 99% that is written in defense on one of the greatest (if not THE GREATEST) character in the Dragon Age world.

http://greywardens.c...c-tir-on-trial/

Modifié par Marko GW, 13 juin 2012 - 04:28 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Faerunner wrote...

No, seriously.

Loghain says at one point in the game: "Everything I have done has been to secure Fereldan's independence!" .. By selling your people into slavery? Are some Fereldans more deserving of independence than others? As long as human freeholders get to be free of Orlaisian soldiers, it's okay to sell alienage elves to Tevinter magisters?

"Hypocritical b@st@rd" is the first term to come to mind. Forget everything else - treason, desertion, usurpation, negligence (of Howe) - if everything he does rests on the excuse that he's trying to maintain the independence he fought for Fereldan's citizens, then his excuse crumbled the minute he started selling Fereldan citizens into slavery.

I personally think that this is the worst of it too, but his defense is that there's no way to hold the Alienage should the darkspawn come through. (The Warden can manage it, but that doesn't mean it's strictly possible, and at any rate Loghain still doesn't realize the Warden is that good.) So, since the elves are screwed anyway, and he really needs money (again, he doesn't realize that the Warden can handle this), he's sacrificing people who are already doomed in order to un-doom everyone else.

Besides, it's not like humans are the only ones who benefit. The elves who are left at least aren't slaves/dead.

I'm not saying it was a good plan. I'm just saying that it's technically in line with his position, and since he needed money, it probably seemed like a good idea at the time.

(This is the one decision of Loghain's I never thought I'd end up defending. Thank you for making me the devil's advocate for slavery.)

[Androme]

Loghain is a proud patriot that doesn't deserve to be executed by a whiny kid like Alistair.

[gandanlin]

Loghain is a patriot, perhaps, but in the same way an autocrat is a patriot. He defends his particular idea of Ferelden, an idea essentially rooted in his need to have ruthless power over people. Moreover, his idea of Ferelden is decidedly xenophobic and lacks any sort of commitment to granting basic civil rights to the citizens of Ferelden.

Heck, he'd probably even betray the King of Ferelden if it suited him. Oh wait, he did do that, didn't he? /sarcasm

If Loghain were to be tried in a court, it must surely be in Ferelden's version of the Hague, where they try those alleged to be guilty of war crimes, yes?

[Callidus Thorn]

The first time I played through the game, I despised Loghain. My first character was a city elf, so it fitted in rather nicely. After I read The Stolen Throne my opinion of him changed.

I still think he's a cold, uncompromising b*stard, but now I see why. He basically forced Maric into his role, was the military leader behind the figurehead of Maric, and in the process lost pretty much everything he wanted except for his country. Is it any surprise he would pay almost any price to protect the country again?

[Caiden012]

At one point he was a war hero and a great man. But then he tried to lead his country into a war against an enemy he simply didnt understand. He believed that he could defeat the blight like he could any other army. But the second he left Duncan to die he showed that he would never be able to stop the blight. The Grey Wardens are more than just those who fight the darkspawn, as far as we know right now they are the only ones that can stop the blight. Without their help Loghain was doomed to fail. His desire to protect the kingdom drove him mad to the point where he would sell his people into slavery and leave his king, his kings soldiers, and all the grey wardens in Ferelden to die.

[Fauxnormal]

Changes nothing. Never spared the SOB. Never will. There is no excuse for his behavior. There is no excuse for letting him live. He's as much a disgusting animal as the Darkspawn he let good men die to.

[Caiden012]

You should read up on Duncans past and then you will hate Loghain even more for leaving him behind.

[Callidus Thorn]

@Caiden012: Why wouldn't he believe he could stop the blight. The grey wardens never revealed the secret of how they kill the darkspawn, so what reason is there to believe that onlt they can do it? Bear in mind it had been about 400 years since the previous blight, and the grey wardens were not as respected as they used to be. 400 years is more than enough time for fact to become myth, especially if the exact details of how the archdemon was slain were never revealed.

And considering the size of that horde of darkspawn, they were never going to win at Ostagar. I think it was mentioned somewhere they were trying to draw out the archdemon, but I could be wrong. And to be fair, Cailan seemed more concerned with looking like a hero than anything else, any sensible king would've stayed away from the battle.

[Caiden012]

Callidus Thorn wrote...

@Caiden012: Why wouldn't he believe he could stop the blight. The grey wardens never revealed the secret of how they kill the darkspawn, so what reason is there to believe that onlt they can do it? Bear in mind it had been about 400 years since the previous blight, and the grey wardens were not as respected as they used to be. 400 years is more than enough time for fact to become myth, especially if the exact details of how the archdemon was slain were never revealed.

And considering the size of that horde of darkspawn, they were never going to win at Ostagar. I think it was mentioned somewhere they were trying to draw out the archdemon, but I could be wrong. And to be fair, Cailan seemed more concerned with looking like a hero than anything else, any sensible king would've stayed away from the battle.

Thats what I mean. Lohgain Didnt understand that he couldnt defeat the blight without the Grey Wardens. Duncan tried tell everyone this and that there was an archdemon leading the horde but no one would listen. Even Cailen who had great trust in the Wardens was beginning to believe that it wasnt a blight. People still remember what the Grey Wardens did 400 years ago. Thats why no one believed it was a blight. So many darkspawn were killed in the last blight that most people assumed that they would never recover and that there would never be another blight. Lohgain had no problem leaving the Wardens to die not because he thought that he could win, but because he had no trust in them. He believes that they just sat on the sideline while Ferelden was inslaved.

After Sophia Dryden, the Wardens have tried not to become involved in issues that dont include the darkspawn. As for Ostagar there are many different thoughts on what the outcome of the battle would be. The is more to war that just numbers. A good strategy can win a battle for a heavily outnumbered force. If the battle had gone as planned than the darkspawn would have been flanked by Lohgains forces and then their units would have been split. Ostagar would have most likely not ended the blight. Ferelden would need to get help for somewhere else, unless the archdemon appeared and Duncan could slay it. 

Cailen was young and probably wanted to become a legend like his father and other kings before him. He was a good person, a decent fighter, and him being on the battle field helped the moral of his men. But he like most others just didnt understand how terrible a blight could be. It took over ten years to end the fourth blight and the army Garahel gathered was much greater than the one at Ostagar. Cailen was some what foolish with his youth but he was prepared to set aside his nations differences with Orlais to fight the blight. This would have been a smart move. In the past most blights were ended by nations coming together under the Grey Wardens. Lohgain let his hatred for Orlais get in the way of what was for the best.

He let his personal feelings get in the way and allowed his king and many great Grey Wardens die simply because he personally did not trust the Grey Wardens or Orlais.

Modifié par Caiden012, 28 juin 2012 - 09:50 .

[Callidus Thorn]

Yes, Duncan said there was an archdemon, and that wardens were needed, but did he explain why? No. A country the wardens had been banished from until Maric let them back in, and Duncan expected his word alone to be enough. A country with reason to distrust the wardens, and only their word they were needed? Is it really hard to believe why Loghain trust them? Beyond old legends, did they give him reason to?

As for strategy, the darkspawn obviously had their own. Taking the tower of Ishal proves they were not an unthinking horde, so the value of Loghain's flanking maneuver is highly suspect. Strategy can only make up for numbers up to a point, and the darkspawn may well have been beyond that point.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Loghain seems to have honestly believed that Cailan was unpreventably going to die. Those who say he should have charged anyway advocate throwing good lives away to save lives that can't be saved. Yes, Cailan was king, and yes, Loghain should have done everything he could to save him. And he seems to have done so.

http://social.biowar...dex/583297&lf=8

Cailan made the choice to fight on the front lines. Word Of Gaider (above link) is that Loghain knew the battle might be lost, and was planning all along for the possibility that he might have to ditch the field with such men as he could save. That probably has something to do with why he asked Cailan not to fight on the front lines.  (Cailan's tone of voice indicates that Loghain was getting pretty annoying about it, which is really all Loghain can do. Cailan's king. If he wants to die in battle, he can't legally be stopped.)

Even if you don't accept Gaider's word on this (he implies that he's hoping people make up their own, I think) the fact remains that we the players have reason to believe that Loghain was right: Alistair states that they've surely missed the signal, and they're lighting it anyway and hoping it works. Of course there was the possibility that Loghain saw an oppurtunity to take power, but if he wanted to do that, would he really have worked so hard as he did to try to keep Cailan out of the deathtrap?

I had trouble bringing myself to mention Loghain's justification for his slavery ring, but this really seems to have been the only decision Loghain could have made.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 29 juin 2012 - 03:13 .

[Caiden012]

Callidus Thorn wrote...

Yes, Duncan said there was an archdemon, and that wardens were needed, but did he explain why? No. A country the wardens had been banished from until Maric let them back in, and Duncan expected his word alone to be enough. A country with reason to distrust the wardens, and only their word they were needed? Is it really hard to believe why Loghain trust them? Beyond old legends, did they give him reason to?

As for strategy, the darkspawn obviously had their own. Taking the tower of Ishal proves they were not an unthinking horde, so the value of Loghain's flanking maneuver is highly suspect. Strategy can only make up for numbers up to a point, and the darkspawn may well have been beyond that point.

Duncan didnt expect his word to be enough. It was all he could give them without revealing the secrets of the wardens. Its difficult to explaine how the Wardens know about the archdemon to someone without them experiancing it first hand.

Duncan and Maric became friends and he is the reason Maric let them back into Ferelden. Duncan protected Maric in the deep roads. That should have been enough for Lohgain to at least trust Duncan. But instead he stated his distrust of Duncan right to his face. I believe that Lohgain was at one point a true war hero. But during the Fifth blight he made bad choices. Loghains army was bigger than some think. When he orders to pull out you can see the lights behind him moving in a row. Those were his men and there was thousands.

Ostagar my have been a losing battle but what other choice did Ferelden have. The only other place that could act as a suitable fortress to fight the darkspawn was Denerim. They would have to remove thousands for the city and half of Ferelden would have been decimated from the blight. Lohgain thought he could out smart the darkspawn but in reality the second he left Ostagar half of Ferelden was doomed to be wiped out.

You also have to remember that the Warden beat the darkspawn with stratagy and not numbers. He/she did bring together a great army but he/she was still outnumbered by the darkspawn, even more so after they raided Denerim. He/she cut straight throught the city and killed the archdemon before the forces of Ferelden were overwhelmed.

[Caiden012]

I am not trying to make Lohgain look like the worst person in Ferelden. I just think that he could have made better choices and let his personal feeling get in the way of saving Ferelden. Many Grey Wardens have their own opinions of what is right and wrong. But they do whatever it takes to win. Even if it means to rely on blood mage, or charging into a losing battle. I know Lohgain is not a Grey Warden but they are a prime example of what needs to be done during a blight. Maybe Duncan knew he might die during the battle at Ostagar. But he would still charge into the field because it is his duty to protect Thedas from the blight. He saw the becon lit and I believe that in his last moments he knew that there was still hope and that his death will not be in vain.

Modifié par Caiden012, 29 juin 2012 - 04:35 .

[Callidus Thorn]

I've read the calling too, remember what happened after they got out of the deep roads? Orlesians and darkspawn working together, a trap that the grey wardens led Maric into. Maric basically deserted his throne to go with them, and they almost got him killed or captured by Orlais, so why would Loghain remotely trust them?

Ostagar should've been a holding action, trying to delay the darkspawn until more forces could be gathered. Stalling the darkspawn while Cailan gathered as many reinforcements as he could. Cailan wanted it to be the battle that ended the blight, that would make him a legend.

And enough about Loghain's feelings getting in the way of protecting Ferelden. Protecting Ferelden is precisely what Loghain was trying to do.

[Caiden012]

Of course he was trying to defend Ferelden. He did what HE believed was best. But look at all the people he hurt in the middle of it. He allied himself with Howe which allowed Howe to sell Elves into slavery and hire assassins. He marched into Lothering took every soldier they had and then left the people to fend for themselves. His daughter and even his most trusted soldier agreed that things had gotten out of hand.

His constant desire to protect Ferelden blinded him from what he was really doing. Any Grey Warden can tell you that the blight is the worst thing that can happen to Thedas. But Lohgain was more worried about the Orlesian invasion that wasnt coming. In fact Cailen was about make a permanent alliance with Orlais. The army on Fereldens boarder was there to aid, but Lohgain delayed to aid of Orlais because of HIS great distaste of them. He believed every single Orlesian was the same as the last.

He says he would have fought to his last breath for Cailen. But that is possibly a lie seeing as how he opening calls Cailen a fool and has no problem leaving his body to the wolves. In fact he disapproves of a funeral. Cailen was foolish to charge the front line with the Grey Wardens like he did. But if Lohgain had accepted more help from Orlais and the Wardens like Cailen was going to than the battle would have been very different.

Modifié par Caiden012, 29 juin 2012 - 06:36 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The decisions I can defend with a straight face are his decisions to leave Cailan to die, and his decision to take the Wardens down. I also felt the need to go through Loghain's decision to enslave elves, if only because Faerunner didn't seem to be looking at Loghain's reasons even as much as they deserve. I've already gone through why I can defend that first one, so now the bounty and the assassins.

From Loghain's point of view, he could handle both the Blight and the Orlesians. He had no way of knowing that the Blight was literally impossible to end without Warden assistance. Meanwhile, even if it weren't for that crap that happened during the Calling, it looks from Loghain's position like the Wardens screwed over Ferelden. He doesn't seem to be aware that there darkspawn in the Tower, and seems to have focused on getting out of the fight rather than investigating. So, if you were in Loghain's position, didn't know there were reasons for delaying lighting the beacon, and knew only that the only (known) factor in that tower that you couldn't vouch for was the Wardens, what would you conclude?

As for the permanent alliance with Orlais that would require Cailan to leave Anora? You can't have missed that the reason he had to leave Anora was in favor of Celene? The ruler of Orlais? Somebody who had to save the country from the Orlesians has plenty of reasons to object without factoring in that his daughter was getting screwed. (Not in the good way, I mean.) Ferelden is the smaller country. If the two are ruled by the same two people, which country is really in control?

As to the help from Orlais... why would Loghain trust it? Again, he had to save the country from Orlais in his youth. How would he be able to trust them, short of very obviously having no other choice?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 29 juin 2012 - 06:42 .

[Caiden012]

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I do believe that Lohgain though he was doing what was best. I edited my previous post because it was incorrect, Loghain found out about Cailen and Celene only if you spare him and bring him with you to Ostagar. Most of what you say is true. But thats the problem. HE doesnt trust Orlais, HE doesnt trust the Wardens, and it is HIS daughter getting screwed (Not in the good way). His decision to delay Orlesian and Grey Warden aid is based off his personal feeling of them. He let his personal distaste of them blind him from the fact that neither were the true enemies. In fact they were his best possible allies against the blight.

Modifié par Caiden012, 29 juin 2012 - 06:56 .

[Callidus Thorn]

Well the events of DAO pretty much prove that Orlais intervention, so Loghain not trusting them is ultimately irrelevant. If Cailan hadn't been so obsessed with the legend of the grey wardens he'd probably have been doing what the warden did, getting everyone in Ferelden united to face the blight.

The potential alliance with Orlais was kept secret because nobody qould've agreed with it. Not Loghain, not the Bannorn, not even Arl Eamon would've agreed with him on that. There is literally no guarantee that the Orlesians wouldn't have attacked a weakened Ferelden once the blight was dealt with. That was Loghain's concern, and it is completely justified. Why settle for an alliance, acknowledging the other as your equal, when you can simply use them as a shield against the blight then conquer them?

[gandanlin]

The Wardens at least attempt to resolve their political issues at the Landsmeet. Loghain, in contrast, makes the rather cowardly decision to desert the King on the field of battle.

My impression of Loghain is that he had long had the plan to dispose of Cailan. He was just waiting for the right opportunity to arise for him to implement that treasonous plan.

It seemed to me the work of a sneak, not a hero of Ferelden or compellling orator of the Landsmeet.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Loghain thought he was being sneaked on, and in fairness Cailan was doing so. He did what he thought he had to, and in some cases the limited information he had justified him. Some of was underhanded, I'm not denying that, and you'll note that I'm not trying too hard to defend the slavery thing.

As for the opinion I gave of Loghain's reasons for leaving the field, like I said it was David Gaider's, not mine. Although really, his character makes a lot more sense in context of Gaider's word. The other option is just writing him off immediately as a guy who inexplicably goes from trying to keep Cailan safe to killing him off at the cost of half the army.

Edit: Or maybe there's another one, but it'd involve serious work to come up with.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 juillet 2012 - 02:10 .