456 réponses à ce sujet

[Kalas Magnus]

Rodrrigoww wrote...

InfamousResult wrote...

Rodrrigoww wrote...

Each class has their cons and pros.

And?

The argument is that the tradeoff isn't even.

Yes it is , biotic explosions are ridiculously powerful , gigantic radius and stasis is an insta phantom killer .
A tsunami of tech bursts , arc grenades and incinerate are just as good.Health regeneration with 1300 health.Insta shield recharge of a 1600 shield ( possible 2100). 70% damage + double shields or 40% damage + double shields +40% DR and frag 'nades.I'm sorry I'm able to do as good as my GI with any other class in this game , if you can't  , you suck , on top of that , a lot of classe have sinergy with ech other , while infs have no sinergy at all.Turian sentinel for example , tons of tech bursts , tons of biotic explosions , overload and tech armor , I can outscore an infi with that , put an AA in the team and he'll probably be the third or fourth.
About the trade off , here's the trade off : Not a single power of an infiltrator is able to do decent damage  , their health and shield suck , every sniper rifle can take 1 to 2 enemies before it needs to reload WITH TC , granted you scored a headshot on targets that are most of the time moving and dodging and on cover on gold.So as you can see it goes like this : Infiltrators are shi* without TC , we give them TC , now it's even.Let's compare to asari adepts just for the hell of it , they don't even need to aim to create biotic explosions in the same time an infiltrator would shoot his widow reload and finally shoot again to kill a target AAs would have exploded along with other enemies and with stasis under the sleeve.Yet you don't see me complaining about  AAs which i can own any infiltrator when i use it.

Do you honestly believe that? 

A geth claymore(barrel+Smart choke) with armor piercing lv3, Shotgun rail amp 3, Extra shields, Shotgun Damage lv5 will always come in first. 

[landylan]

make the title all caps and say its official and ill sign this.

Modifié par landylan, 14 juin 2012 - 12:00 .

[Rodrrigoww]

nicethugbert wrote...

Rodrrigoww wrote...

InfamousResult wrote...

Rodrrigoww wrote...

Each class has their cons and pros.

And?

The argument is that the tradeoff isn't even.

Yes it is , biotic explosions are ridiculously powerful , gigantic radius and stasis is an insta phantom killer .
A tsunami of tech bursts , arc grenades and incinerate are just as good.Health regeneration with 1300 health.Insta shield recharge of a 1600 shield ( possible 2100). 70% damage + double shields or 40% damage + double shields +40% DR and frag 'nades.I'm sorry I'm able to do as good as my GI with any other class in this game , if you can't  , you suck , on top of that , a lot of classe have sinergy with ech other , while infs have no sinergy at all.Turian sentinel for example , tons of tech bursts , tons of biotic explosions , overload and tech armor , I can outscore an infi with that , put an AA in the team and he'll probably be the third or fourth.

No, it's not even because all those actions you mention are being done while tacking damage on gold.  But, with Tac Cloak, you can stay safe while you line up a shot then run away when you shoot.

No you can actually take cover unless they've pushed you back so hard that you should've rage quitted already while taking note of the name of your team mates , just so you can avoid the in the future.

[Rodrrigoww]

Kalas321 wrote...

Rodrrigoww wrote...

InfamousResult wrote...

Rodrrigoww wrote...

Each class has their cons and pros.

And?

The argument is that the tradeoff isn't even.

Yes it is , biotic explosions are ridiculously powerful , gigantic radius and stasis is an insta phantom killer .
A tsunami of tech bursts , arc grenades and incinerate are just as good.Health regeneration with 1300 health.Insta shield recharge of a 1600 shield ( possible 2100). 70% damage + double shields or 40% damage + double shields +40% DR and frag 'nades.I'm sorry I'm able to do as good as my GI with any other class in this game , if you can't  , you suck , on top of that , a lot of classe have sinergy with ech other , while infs have no sinergy at all.Turian sentinel for example , tons of tech bursts , tons of biotic explosions , overload and tech armor , I can outscore an infi with that , put an AA in the team and he'll probably be the third or fourth.
About the trade off , here's the trade off : Not a single power of an infiltrator is able to do decent damage  , their health and shield suck , every sniper rifle can take 1 to 2 enemies before it needs to reload WITH TC , granted you scored a headshot on targets that are most of the time moving and dodging and on cover on gold.So as you can see it goes like this : Infiltrators are shi* without TC , we give them TC , now it's even.Let's compare to asari adepts just for the hell of it , they don't even need to aim to create biotic explosions in the same time an infiltrator would shoot his widow reload and finally shoot again to kill a target AAs would have exploded along with other enemies and with stasis under the sleeve.Yet you don't see me complaining about  AAs which i can own any infiltrator when i use it.

Do you honestly believe that? 

A geth claymore(barrel+Smart choke) with armor piercing lv3, Shotgun rail amp 3, Extra shields, Shotgun Damage lv5 will always come in first. 

Yes I do , I can honestly say that i've never used a shotgun in any of my infiltrators , the few I've seen were farming in glacier . stil , it's not rocket science to figure out how they play and make my argument from there.AFAIK they have to walk up to their targets , targets that will most of the time NOT be alone , you shoot,  then you're uncloaked and vulnerable with something that takes for of your lifes to reload , if somehow you make it alive you'll probably be shieldless with a measly 300 or so of helth, it's a glass cannon it doesn't accept failure,  seems fair enough to me , you can't rambo with that setup it's a setup I can't run because I don't like being focused every second when trying to have fun , with AA you barely need to think NOR aim ; you spam your explosions and if things get ugly stasis.

Modifié par Rodrrigoww, 14 juin 2012 - 12:20 .

[GodlessPaladin]

AlienAtSystem wrote...

Introduction:
In order to end the endless discussions asout wether Tactical Cloak is overpowered or not, I finally decided to do the math for all of you.
In the following sections, I will compare an Infiltrator that has been specced for max in either weapon or power damage to the characters that lore-wise should be able to compete with the Infiltrator. That is the Human Soldier with his Adrenaline Rush for the Weapon Damage, and the Engineer for the Power Damage.

How the numbers were calculated:
Unfortunately, Mass Effect 3 is rather inconsistent with Damage Bonuses. Most affect only the base damage, while others affect all damage, resulting in an overall mess when people try to do the math. Here is what I have gathered so far:

• Bonuses that are given by powers affect the base damage unless otherwise noted. Those could be called "Additive Bonuses" because they are added together.
• Vulnerabilities that are added to the target affect the whole damage, as far as I can tell. Those bonuses can be called "Force Multipliers", as they multiply the overall deadlyness.
• The Sniper Rifle bonus of Tactical Cloak affects all damage instead of base damage and thus is a Force Multiplier.

To calculate the overall Damage Bonus, I first add all Additive Bonuses to the 100% Base Damage. Then I multiply that number with all Force Multipliers. In the end, I substract the 100% Base Damage again to get the overall bonus received. In a formula: (100% + Additive Bonuses)*Force Multipliers - 100% = Overall Bonus.
I will give the relevant numbers so you can follow my calculations.

Weapon Damage
Since Infiltrators and Soldiers have the same weapons to choose from, there is not much inconsistency here. Therfore, here the numbers:
Infiltrators
Additive Bonuses: 22.5 % Training, 90% Tactical Cloak, 17.5% Hunter Mode (Geth Only), 10% Geth Weapons (Geth Only)
Force Multipliers: 1.4 Cloak Sniper Bonus, 1.2 Proximity Mine Vulnerability (Geth and Salarian only), 1.325 Tactical scan vulnerability (Quarian Male only)
Bonuses, from highest to lowest:

• Geth Infiltrator with Javelin: 303%
• Quarian Male with Sniper Rifle: 294%
• Geth or Salarian with Sniper Rifle: 286%
• Human and Quarian Female with Sniper Rifle: 198%
• Geth with other geth weapon: 188%
• Quarian Male with other weapon: 182%
• Geth or Salarian with other, non-geth weapon: 176%
• Human or Quarian Female with other weapon: 113%

Human Soldier
Given that Adrenaline Rush is the only other power buffing Weapon Damage in a comparable way, it will be our competitor here.
Adrenaline Rush instantly reloads a weapon, which is generally seen as significant advantage, but that, in my opinion, balances out against the cooldown where you can't use the Adrenaline Rush.
Additive Bonuses: 27.5% Training, 70% Adrenaline Rush
Force Multipliers: None
Overall Bonus: 98 %
Turian Soldier
Marksman is not as comparable as Adrenaline Rush, but since it is the only other competitor, really, it shall be added. It's maximal rate of fire bonus is 70%, but to account for reload time and ammunition consumption, I will estimate the Force Multiplier as 1.5
Additive Bonuses: 30% Training
Force Multipliers: 1.5 Marksman RoF increase, 1.2 Proximity Mine
Overall Bonus: 134%
Conclusion
Even when not equipping a Sniper Rifle, an Infiltrator has a significantly larger bonus to weapon damage. The Turian Soldier somes closer, but still falls short to the Sniper Rifle bonus.
Additionally, an Infiltrator has, skilled for maximum weapon damage, still a bonus to power damage of 100%, while the Soldier has 10%. And while a Soldier has to struggle with the high encumbrance, and can only fire one power over approx. 7 seconds, the Infiltrator can fire one every 3.5 seconds, not matter what encumbrance.
In terms of survivability, the Infiltrator wins again, as the Soldier has to forego any defensive evolutions of Adrenaline Rush in this build, the Infiltrator has his invisibility that moves the aggro off him.

Power Damage
This section is much less infallible than the above, as power cooldowns are more or less even more complex to calculate than damage bonuses. For the sake of simplicity, I have made them Force multipliers with the respective bonuses, but that is most likely completely incorrect.
Additionally, it is impossible to calculate the impact of the tactical cloak on the powers. While some have less cooldown, others have more, and I generally have no idea how the minimal TC cooldown interacts with encumbrance and other cooldown modifiers.
At last, powers are of course not easily comparable, which I also have not taken into account, as this is not the purpose of the thread. I will just remark that the powers of the popular Infiltrators - Arc Grenade, Energy Drain, Proximity Mine - are generally seen as on the strong end of the power table.
Infiltrators
Additive Bonuses: 45% Training (40% for Geth), 90% Cloak, 17,5% Hunter Mode  general bonus(Geth only), 15% Hunter Mode damage bonus (Geth Only)
Force Multipliers: 1.325 Tactical Scan (Quarian Male only), 1.2 Proximity Mine vulnerability (Salarian and Geth only)
Bonuses, from high to low:

• Quarian Male: 211%
• Geth: 209%
• Salarian: 182%
• Other: 135%

Engineers
The obvious competitors. Note that the Force Multiplier of the Geth Engineer is most likely estimated way to high.
Additive Bonuses: 45% Training (40% Geth), 32.5% Hunter Mode (Geth Only)
Force Multipliers: 1.2 Hunter Mode recharge speed (Geth Only), 1.325 Tactical Scan (Quarian Male only)
Bonuses, from high to low:

• Geth Engineer: 107%
• Quarian Male: 92%
• Other: 45%

Sentinels (Tech Armor)
As Sentinels can migitate damage with their armor, but are also mainly Power-Based, they shall be added here. Please consider that the Force multiplier of the Cooldown Reduction is most likely chosen way to high.
Additive Bonuses: 45% Training, 30% Tech Armor
Force Multipliers: 0.7 (except Grenadier Krogan)
Bonuses:

• Grenadier Krogan: 75%

Other: 23%
Conclusion
While not overall conclusive data, the trend is clearly visible: The Infiltrators win against Power classes in terms of bonus.
Again, they also manage to have the higher weapon damage, too. I haven't run the numbers, but it should come down to about 50% maximum for the Engineers vs. 100% of the Infiltrators times the Sniper Force Multiplier.
In terms of survivability, Infiltrators and Engineers are similar, as both have an ability to shift the aggro (The exception is the Male Quarian, who makes up for it in damage).
Sentinels, Jacks of all trades, are of course nowhere near those two, but make up for it in other ways.

Overall Conclusion
It is rather obvious that the Infiltrator, the Half Tech, Half Combat fighter of Mass Effect 1 has grown into something that outperforms both pure Combat Specialists and Tech Specialists, thanks to his tactical cloak. Since someone will drop the n-word anyway, I shall say it out loud: The Tactical Cloak needs to be nerfed.
My short-term suggestions: Reduce the Damage Bonus to 50% (30% initial, 20% on evolution) and the Force Multiplier of Sniper Rifles to 1.2. Decrease base Duration and increase Duration evolution gain to make infiltrators choose between survivability and damage.
My long-term suggestions: Make the Damage Bonus end immediately when a power is used. Make the Sniper Rifle bonus additive instead of multiplying. Have the Cooldown affected by encumbrance. Make the invisibility effect more effective to encourage sneaking instead of assassination.

Please Sign if you agree with me that the Tactical Cloak needs to be balanced. My suggestions are only numbers and can be discussed.

Isn't Geth weapon damage bonus is a multiplier like the sniper bonus? Also, you didn't account for equipment, which benefits Infiltrators more than most everyone else due to multipliers... and an abundance of free combo explosions off P.Mine and Arc Grenades.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 14 juin 2012 - 12:27 .

[xis3]

TC should add damage to sniper rifle only, not to everything( grenade mele shotgun ).

[Kalas Magnus]

Rodrrigoww wrote...

Kalas321 wrote...

Rodrrigoww wrote...

InfamousResult wrote...

Rodrrigoww wrote...

Each class has their cons and pros.

And?

The argument is that the tradeoff isn't even.

Yes it is , biotic explosions are ridiculously powerful , gigantic radius and stasis is an insta phantom killer .
A tsunami of tech bursts , arc grenades and incinerate are just as good.Health regeneration with 1300 health.Insta shield recharge of a 1600 shield ( possible 2100). 70% damage + double shields or 40% damage + double shields +40% DR and frag 'nades.I'm sorry I'm able to do as good as my GI with any other class in this game , if you can't  , you suck , on top of that , a lot of classe have sinergy with ech other , while infs have no sinergy at all.Turian sentinel for example , tons of tech bursts , tons of biotic explosions , overload and tech armor , I can outscore an infi with that , put an AA in the team and he'll probably be the third or fourth.
About the trade off , here's the trade off : Not a single power of an infiltrator is able to do decent damage  , their health and shield suck , every sniper rifle can take 1 to 2 enemies before it needs to reload WITH TC , granted you scored a headshot on targets that are most of the time moving and dodging and on cover on gold.So as you can see it goes like this : Infiltrators are shi* without TC , we give them TC , now it's even.Let's compare to asari adepts just for the hell of it , they don't even need to aim to create biotic explosions in the same time an infiltrator would shoot his widow reload and finally shoot again to kill a target AAs would have exploded along with other enemies and with stasis under the sleeve.Yet you don't see me complaining about  AAs which i can own any infiltrator when i use it.

Do you honestly believe that? 

A geth claymore(barrel+Smart choke) with armor piercing lv3, Shotgun rail amp 3, Extra shields, Shotgun Damage lv5 will always come in first. 

Yes I do , I can honestly say that i've never used a shotgun in any of my infiltrators , the few I've seen were farming in glacier . stil , it's not rocket science to figure out how they play and make my argument from there.AFAIK they have to walk up to their targets , targets that will most of the time NOT be alone , you shoot,  then you're uncloaked and vulnerable with something that takes for of your lifes to reload , if somehow you make it alive you'll probably be shieldless with a measly 300 or so of helth, it's a glass cannon it doesn't accept failure,  seems fair enough to me , you can't rambo with that setup it's a setup I can't run because I don't like being focused every second when trying to have fun , with AA you barely need to think NOR aim ; you spam your explosions and if things get ugly stasis.

The Proxy mine staggers the enemies while you shoot the stronger enemies. On later rounds you focus on the boss and the proxy will deal with the grunts. What concentration? With that type of power you just have to shoot close to the enemy and it is dead. The proxy is basically unlimited debuff grenades. GI works with the power of an entire team.

[Rodrrigoww]

Kalas321 wrote...

Rodrrigoww wrote...

Kalas321 wrote...

Rodrrigoww wrote...

InfamousResult wrote...

Rodrrigoww wrote...

Each class has their cons and pros.

And?

The argument is that the tradeoff isn't even.

Yes it is , biotic explosions are ridiculously powerful , gigantic radius and stasis is an insta phantom killer .
A tsunami of tech bursts , arc grenades and incinerate are just as good.Health regeneration with 1300 health.Insta shield recharge of a 1600 shield ( possible 2100). 70% damage + double shields or 40% damage + double shields +40% DR and frag 'nades.I'm sorry I'm able to do as good as my GI with any other class in this game , if you can't  , you suck , on top of that , a lot of classe have sinergy with ech other , while infs have no sinergy at all.Turian sentinel for example , tons of tech bursts , tons of biotic explosions , overload and tech armor , I can outscore an infi with that , put an AA in the team and he'll probably be the third or fourth.
About the trade off , here's the trade off : Not a single power of an infiltrator is able to do decent damage  , their health and shield suck , every sniper rifle can take 1 to 2 enemies before it needs to reload WITH TC , granted you scored a headshot on targets that are most of the time moving and dodging and on cover on gold.So as you can see it goes like this : Infiltrators are shi* without TC , we give them TC , now it's even.Let's compare to asari adepts just for the hell of it , they don't even need to aim to create biotic explosions in the same time an infiltrator would shoot his widow reload and finally shoot again to kill a target AAs would have exploded along with other enemies and with stasis under the sleeve.Yet you don't see me complaining about  AAs which i can own any infiltrator when i use it.

Do you honestly believe that? 

A geth claymore(barrel+Smart choke) with armor piercing lv3, Shotgun rail amp 3, Extra shields, Shotgun Damage lv5 will always come in first. 

Yes I do , I can honestly say that i've never used a shotgun in any of my infiltrators , the few I've seen were farming in glacier . stil , it's not rocket science to figure out how they play and make my argument from there.AFAIK they have to walk up to their targets , targets that will most of the time NOT be alone , you shoot,  then you're uncloaked and vulnerable with something that takes for of your lifes to reload , if somehow you make it alive you'll probably be shieldless with a measly 300 or so of helth, it's a glass cannon it doesn't accept failure,  seems fair enough to me , you can't rambo with that setup it's a setup I can't run because I don't like being focused every second when trying to have fun , with AA you barely need to think NOR aim ; you spam your explosions and if things get ugly stasis.

The Proxy mine staggers the enemies while you shoot the stronger enemies. On later rounds you focus on the boss and the proxy will deal with the grunts. What concentration? With that type of power you just have to shoot close to the enemy and it is dead. The proxy is basically unlimited debuff grenades. GI works with the power of an entire team.

Nerf the proxy raidius then , I was introduced to the mp less than a month ago , I know something was done to the proxys but can't quite remember what, seems like proxies play a huge part on this , well nerf it then , but not something that make snipers viable , seriously , the DPS of a sniper is terrible if you take into consideration how long it tkes to pick your target with a headshot , so body shots should pack a punch as well , and thanks to TC they kinda do.

[swjobson]

Signed.

Infiltrators get more weapon damage bonus than a soldier on adrenaline, more power damage bonus for explosives than an adept, and more melee damage bonus than a krogan on rage. Plus, their invisibility makes life harder for everyone else in the squad who wants to play something besides infiltrator because only their class can shed aggro, and the fact that they get to bypass -200% cooldown.

It's high time this absurd class was brought down to par. I'm tired of having to play infiltrator just to not get kicked from half of gold matches. Maybe once it happens Bioware will start to balance weapons for use by all classes as well.

[Lord Rosario]

Rodrrigoww wrote...

Yes I do , I can honestly say that i've never used a shotgun in any of my infiltrators , the few I've seen were farming in glacier . stil , it's not rocket science to figure out how they play and make my argument from there.AFAIK they have to walk up to their targets , targets that will most of the time NOT be alone , you shoot,  then you're uncloaked and vulnerable with something that takes for of your lifes to reload , if somehow you make it alive you'll probably be shieldless with a measly 300 or so of helth, it's a glass cannon it doesn't accept failure,  seems fair enough to me , you can't rambo with that setup it's a setup I can't run because I don't like being focused every second when trying to have fun , with AA you barely need to think NOR aim ; you spam your explosions and if things get ugly stasis.

BWAHAHAHAHA! Budy.. If you get a shotgun you can charge, like the Geth Plasma shotgun, and you charge it before you cloak, then you aren't revealed when you fire. ALSO. Apparently you didn't know that shotguns have range, especially with the choke. Claymore has range with the choke, Crusader has range and accuracy, Graal can be charged and has range with the choke, and Gethe Plasma Shotgun has range and charges without the choke. The other ones have range with choke but not enough damage really to be that great.

Perhaps you should try a shotgun build before trying to say it doesn't work. Only one that fits what you are saying is the Reegar Carbine.

Modifié par Lord Rosario, 14 juin 2012 - 12:36 .

[Lord Rosario]

JSlither wrote...

You guys are going to ruin my favorite class with all this nerf talk and reduce Infiltrators to medics no matter how you spec them.

Sad face.*sniff*

A salarian as a medic... Yeah, that doesn't make any sence now does it? *Insert sarcasm here*

[dumael]

Chaoz1994 wrote...

They do BURST SINGLE TARGET damage.

Prox mine, Arc grenade, Falcon, Krysae, Scorpion. Sure, it's not as powerful as BEs but "single target burst damage" argument doesn't hold up.

Shotty infiltrators with the reegar can grenade -> spray, and remove 3+ basic enemies easy.

[kmmd60]

Tactical cloak is a not "tactical" for most players. It's a spammable power which gives you insane damage spike every 3.5 seconds. Therefore, every weapons in this game are OP in their hands. The real reason it's so powerful is:

It ignore encumbrance.
Thus
As long as you cloak - shoot before cloak is expired, you can use TC every 3.5 seconds.

It's the reason why infiltrators don't use cloak as a "tactical" power but a damage boost power. I rarely see any infiltrator "infiltrate" the enemies' line and wreck havoc by flanking. Most of the time players just take cover from a relatively safe position and snipe everything in their line of sight.

My solution? Make weight matters to TC cooldown.

Keep the damage spike the same, but with encumbrance - infiltrators can use TC once every 5-6 seconds. Balance is easier this way than revamp the damage bonus.

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm perfectly fine with the damage bonuses, although it would probably make sense to switch the multiplicative ones to additive. What I don't like is how cloak lets you bypass the entirety of the weight system. If I wanted, I could arm up with a Javelin and Claymore, sally forth, and spam powers every 3 seconds as long as I cloak before each instance. That makes no sense and lets Infiltrators have the best of both worlds -- awesome weapons and spammable powers. With a free damage boost on top of that.

Tweak cloak so that breaking cloak with a power uses that power's cooldown, not cloak's. This would also benefit the Bonus Power evolution, since you could cloak->power->shoot and get the normal cloak cooldown instead.

[xxHiDa SuFixx]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

xxHiDa SuFixx wrote...

 According to this telemetry info from March

gallery.thatvideogameblog.com/albums/mass-effect-3/set-13/mp-telemetry-datanew.jpg


only 16% of players played infiltrator
and only 1% of all successful matches were on Gold

Hardly seems like the majority of players were abusing infiltrators and "making gold into bronze"

According to this telemetry info from May

1.bp.blogspot.com/-qrMgKbTaLpU/T6tXZrRD2II/AAAAAAAAAkU/dTwC0Yzl5R0/s640/ME3MP_Telemetry_201205.jpg

Infiltrators have moved up to 19.2% but are still behind soldiers
and the gold success rate has skyrocketed to 3.5%


The stats do not show a tactical cloak geth infiltrator abusing infested gaming community.

The Krysae was only introduced at the end of May, so that won't be reflected in the data yet.

oh ... i thought i was in the "PETITION: Balance the Tactical Cloak" thread ...
<_<

[Nl55]

GE lose 7,5% of damage and some other features - they whine. You propose nerf infiltrators firepower nearly in twice. They would tear BSN in moment. XD

BW can't repair game. What about balance you said?

This "nerf" not solve problem at all. Too many badly balanced things in this game.

[Snowblind117]

I don't really have a problem with the cloak - it's a lot of fun to use as it is. But I'm just going to throw a random idea out there. Don't know if it's been suggested already...

Put everything with the cloak back the way it was, including being undetected while invisible, and keep the damage bonuses as they are, BUT make it DRAIN shields. Not just prevent recharge, but drain it slowly while active. That will make things a lot more interesting. It will be a much more limiting resource.

As said, though, I'm not that fussed. It probably is a bit strong, but it's a coop game so what does it matter? And if it does get reduced to the point of uselessness, I still have my biotic classes.

[RGFrog]

So, one shot for my Widow get's buffed every 3.5 seconds.

How many shots does a soldier take in that same time? What's the real damage per second comparison?

Are all the Soldier's shots negated by the shield gate like most of an Infiltrator's?

Yep, single shot against an unshielded mook is pretty high up there. But a soldier can take out more unshielded mooks in 3.5 seconds than I can with my one shot SI.

Ok, so let's look at a pretty standard boss: Geth Prime. No headshot damage so no real bonuses kick in until all the shields are down. From that point with a Widow X and spec'd for all damage, it's still 5 or more shots (without ammo powers) to get armor to 0 and kill it. That's each shot taking full advantage of TC. So, a bit over 15 seconds if everything is perfect. I've not seen less than 3 waves of 3 primes lately, so that's, again if everything is perfect 45 seconds to take out each set of primes not to mention the trash that comes with them.

That's a minimum of 2.5 minutes for EACH WAVE if the infiltrator is only shooting Primes and isn't dealing with ANYTHING else. Roughly 8 waves full of at least 3 sets of primes... hmm... that's 20 minutes of killing there.

How long does a gold match last? around 25 minutes for FBWGG (which i use only because it's consistent and measurable).

That means an Infiltrator CANNOT operate even with insane bonuses by itself and finish a normal match without help.

If that's the case, then where's the OP? Other than inflated numbers or with a Krysae that's being nerfed as we speak?

Yeah, there are speed runs, etc. but that's not anywhere near the norm. Nor is it anywhere near the norm for everyone to have a Krysae X.

So, I ask again, where is the OP if a normal player can't possibly complete FBWGG as an INF by himself or herself in the same time it takes with 3 other players in the team?

So, take away all the TC bonuses. Now what? That means an Inf barring special tricks now only gets a damage shot every 3.5 seconds. Does the target have a shield? If so, then that's one shot that's completely negated at the very least. So now it's one useful shot at most every 7 seconds against anything with bariers or shields. Oh wait, the target still has 1% of shields left. Now it's one useful shot every 11 seconds against one target. 

What everyone really wants is two things: The infiltrator to only be useful 4 times a minute or only useful against unshielded trash?

Modifié par RGFrog, 14 juin 2012 - 02:49 .

[Lord Rosario]

I sign. BUT only if it means fixing the bugs with tactical cloak, not nerfing the hell out of it. Cooldown needs to be uniform, weight needs to matter for its cooldown speed, firing a charged weapon needs to drop the cloak, and you should only get a boost for the first shot from cloak. YES that means single shot weapons will be better with it. That is apparently what the infiltrator is for, to deal one shot damage.

Personally, I think that it should be a pure support class, but that is not what the general public wants and I am willing to accept that. Make it a glass cannon, not a hail-fire salvo.

Edit: Also. Shieldgate needs to be removed if all this is done. It is just a stupid limitation that makes the single shot guns useless.

Modifié par Lord Rosario, 14 juin 2012 - 03:29 .

[Lord Rosario]

RGFrog wrote...

So, one shot for my Widow get's buffed every 3.5 seconds.

Didn't read the rest of your post because you started with incorrect information. If you continued on to fix this, then ignore my post here.

All shots for 2.5 seconds after your cloak drops are buffed. So in essence, that means there is only 1 second durring cooldown that the infiltrator doesn't have a grotesque ammount of damage boos that effects both your guns and powers fired.

[Xaijin]

Adhok42 wrote...

....The **** did you include Sentinels for? Seriously? They tank crazy amounts of damage to preform slow burn kills. DPS is not their strong suit.

Hell DPS should NOT be the goal of ALL classes. Each one brings something different to the match to make it survivable. I seriously CANNOT believe that's all anyone focuses on. The fact that this is the basis of your "Solution" sickens me. It's like you're not even trying to see what the other classes do to help the match. I recommend you reevaluate your stance on class Roles instead of trying to balance all classes into a Vanilla Role where everybody does the same amount of damage.

Ugh... I can't stand to read any more of this. Pardon me while I go puke.

DPS is the only metric that matters to a vast and overwhelming majority of the fan base, and infiltrators mitigate dps to other characters whilst dealing about 300% more than any other class. If you can't see the issue with that, role-centric or not, you probably shouldn't be contributing to the issue to begin with.

There is creating a simple and effective power class for beginners and casuals, and then there is creating a two click Murder Hobo that makes enemies attack the rest of the team. BW has done the latter.

Modifié par Xaijin, 14 juin 2012 - 03:29 .

[Lord Rosario]

@RGFrog

Read the rest of your post and your point goes out the window with a few counter points.
A-Widow is a slow, single shot sniper. The Valiant, Black Widow, Krysae [even with the nerfs], Indra, and probably some others outperform the widow because they fire more than one round, therefore doing more damage.

B-Powers. Shooting your gun should not be the only thing you are doing. Use those other two powers that come with the class and you suddenly become twice as damaging.

C-You have team mates. Your calculations all assume you are alone on gold, and frankly, you aren't going to do even a 30 minute run on gold alone with a widow.

D-Missiles. Nuff said.

Modifié par Lord Rosario, 14 juin 2012 - 03:36 .

[avenged100fold]

Why don't we just make the damage bonus only apply to snipers entirely? Seems like that'd fix most problems.

[Immortal Strife]

Please let Bioware balance TC, you guys are making my imagination cry for mercy.

[RGFrog]

Lord Rosario wrote...

@RGFrog

Read the rest of your post and your point goes out the window with a few counter points.
A-Widow is a slow, single shot sniper. The Valiant, Black Widow, Krysae [even with the nerfs], Indra, and probably some others outperform the widow because they fire more than one round, therefore doing more damage.

B-Powers. Shooting your gun should not be the only thing you are doing. Use those other two powers that come with the class and you suddenly become twice as damaging.

C-You have team mates. Your calculations all assume you are alone on gold, and frankly, you aren't going to do even a 30 minute run on gold alone with a widow.

D-Missiles. Nuff said.

Sure, all your points are valid where my point that I play alone. My point was that I can't play alone and therefor the OP cry is for the extreme player not the normal. 

Most players don't have the Valiant, I don't even have a Black Widow, and my Krysae is at lvl 1 not 10.  The Widow is the most powerful weapon I have and only handful of players have better.

So, yeah, peeps with the best lvl X weapons are going to seem fairly powerful. Isn't that the point of an X level weapon on any character?

And your points pretty much confirm that my SI, being a normal player, is not that OP since he requires team mates...

So, is a single shot fairly powerful from my SI with its Widow X, yep. Am I shooting it as if it were a Revenant X or a GPR? No.

Do I have Adren Rush and a weapon that empties a clip rather quickly? No.

So how OP am I as an SI using TC in the same amount of time compared to a Soldier using Adren. Rush? That's the real measure.

I've seen the original post's claims that the bonuses are too high. But what are the real numbers compaired to other classes? How much damage in 3.5 seconds does a Turian Soldier do with Marksman? Does it negate all damage due to the shield gate like it does for the SI? Because the SI is not effective until the shield gate is null'd.

I do know this. A pair of Turian Soldiers with Marksman and Revenants owned the 3 matches I played with them in gold. As an inf. all I could do was clean up some of the trash, revive, and take care of the objectives. I was in no way OP. My single shots were pretty much useless and only really counted if I waited until just the right moments to steal a kill or two.

But yeah, IF i had a Krysae or Black Widow X ... so the real point is not that the Inf. is OP The real point is that Inf can make the best use of weapons that are intended to be OP as they are X level.

And I guess the Inf. gets some time between to dodge around whereas everyone else has to spam the trigger or casting buttons...