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PETITION: Balance the Tactical Cloak


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#276
RGFrog

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Kronner wrote...

OP is not thought out well.

Sniper Rifles may get insane bonus, but they will never one shot a stupid Centurion anyway. All that damage is wasted.

Yes, you get high damage bonus for other weapons too, but that is because Infiltrator is a freaking weapon oriented class.
Soldier has better sustained DPS, Infiltrator is the king of burst DPS. What the hell is the problem here?

At least Infiltrator requires you to aim well. If you miss, all the bonuses in the world are ****ing useless.

Meanwhile, asari adept etc. can spam auto-aim powers that do AoE damage and/or stagger enemies or even enemy groups (Overload). But somehow Cloak needs a freaking 40% weapon damage nerf, shorter damage bonus window and longer cooldown. LOL

Bunch of crybabies are ruining this forum.


Wow, Kronner, first time I wished I'd read your post before posting a response to the OP... LOL

He's on the money with this.

#277
Mevanna

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landylan wrote...

make the title all caps and say its official and ill sign this.


If that happened we'd just get Chris trolling us and there's enough trolling going on in here already.

But also some very constructive comments and sensible discussions. Let's not forget about that.

#278
wolfwarp

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This is not PvP. What is there to balance?

I kind of hate it that those lashes classes keep plucking my targets so much so that my sniper bullet does not pass through the enemies' skulls. Shall I create a petition as well?

#279
Guest_N7 Krisixus_*

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wolfwarp wrote...

This is not PvP. What is there to balance?

I kind of hate it that those lashes classes keep plucking my targets so much so that my sniper bullet does not pass through the enemies' skulls. Shall I create a petition as well?


Even though its not PvP people just want to nerf a power that makes the infiltrators on the same level as the other classes because everyones using it blah blah blah  and whatever, if you want to create a petition then prepared to give some good reasons and evidence.

#280
Lord Rosario

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RGFrog wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

@RGFrog

Read the rest of your post and your point goes out the window with a few counter points.
A-Widow is a slow, single shot sniper. The Valiant, Black Widow, Krysae [even with the nerfs], Indra, and probably some others outperform the widow because they fire more than one round, therefore doing more damage.

B-Powers. Shooting your gun should not be the only thing you are doing. Use those other two powers that come with the class and you suddenly become twice as damaging.

C-You have team mates. Your calculations all assume you are alone on gold, and frankly, you aren't going to do even a 30 minute run on gold alone with a widow.

D-Missiles. Nuff said.


Sure, all your points are valid where my point that I play alone. My point was that I can't play alone and therefor the OP cry is for the extreme player not the normal. 

Most players don't have the Valiant, I don't even have a Black Widow, and my Krysae is at lvl 1 not 10.  The Widow is the most powerful weapon I have and only handful of players have better.

So, yeah, peeps with the best lvl X weapons are going to seem fairly powerful. Isn't that the point of an X level weapon on any character?

And your points pretty much confirm that my SI, being a normal player, is not that OP since he requires team mates...

So, is a single shot fairly powerful from my SI with its Widow X, yep. Am I shooting it as if it were a Revenant X or a GPR? No.

Do I have Adren Rush and a weapon that empties a clip rather quickly? No.

So how OP am I as an SI using TC in the same amount of time compared to a Soldier using Adren. Rush? That's the real measure.

I've seen the original post's claims that the bonuses are too high. But what are the real numbers compaired to other classes? How much damage in 3.5 seconds does a Turian Soldier do with Marksman? Does it negate all damage due to the shield gate like it does for the SI? Because the SI is not effective until the shield gate is null'd.

I do know this. A pair of Turian Soldiers with Marksman and Revenants owned the 3 matches I played with them in gold. As an inf. all I could do was clean up some of the trash, revive, and take care of the objectives. I was in no way OP. My single shots were pretty much useless and only really counted if I waited until just the right moments to steal a kill or two.

But yeah, IF i had a Krysae or Black Widow X ... so the real point is not that the Inf. is OP The real point is that Inf can make the best use of weapons that are intended to be OP as they are X level.

And I guess the Inf. gets some time between to dodge around whereas everyone else has to spam the trigger or casting buttons...


I don't want to sound mean.. but really, if you can't seem to keep up with Turian Soldiers with a Salarian Infiltrator with a Widow, then either those players were really good at this game, or the Salarian Infiltrator just isn't the class for you. Salarian Infiltrator is my overpowered class that I drag out when I need to carry a team. I either pull a Widow [because I am great at headshots] or my Claymore. Both are sngle shot guns.

A tip for using this class, POWERS!!! Your tactical cloak increases the damage of proxy mine and shield drain by 90%. Go for the 40% damage boost with the sniper so that when you use a power, your tac cloak drops, then fire that Widow of yours. Most of the time the power will knock off the shield and stagger them, making them an easy headshot and kill. Use shield drain if you are low on shields to replenish them [against shielded targets and geth only] and proxy mine to deal heavy damage and make your widow do an extra 20% damage. Shieldgate? No longer a problem.

I tell you this trick from experience. Learn it well [don't expect it to work perfectly your first match, takes some getting used to] and you will be awesome. The infiltrator is not exactly noob friendly, but that does not make it any less op if you learn how to use it.

I don't have a valiant or a black widow either and I personally suck with the krysae [Im a true blue sniper, I go for head shots, not aim at the ground]. Don't limit yourself to snipers either, should try out shotguns or the Paladin if you have it. Crusader is pretty good for ignoring shieldgate entirely while still getting those headshots. Claymore is better if you aren't that good of a shot or don't have the crusader.

Don't play blindly, just cloaking and shooting or using obvious builds, and you will find many tricks that will help you and your team in bronze, silver, and gold matches.

Also, should know that no class is supposed to be able to solo gold, and even if it can, it takes skill, medigels, and missiles. No matter how op a class is skill behind it makes it better.

#281
Lord Rosario

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wolfwarp wrote...

This is not PvP. What is there to balance?

I kind of hate it that those lashes classes keep plucking my targets so much so that my sniper bullet does not pass through the enemies' skulls. Shall I create a petition as well?


Single player games have always been balanced so you can't simply kill enemies like ants, why should it be any different for multiplayer?

#282
Lord Rosario

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N7 Rixus wrote...

wolfwarp wrote...

This is not PvP. What is there to balance?

I kind of hate it that those lashes classes keep plucking my targets so much so that my sniper bullet does not pass through the enemies' skulls. Shall I create a petition as well?


Even though its not PvP people just want to nerf a power that makes the infiltrators on the same level as the other classes because everyones using it blah blah blah  and whatever, if you want to create a petition then prepared to give some good reasons and evidence.


Evidence? Do you think tactical cloak was supposed to have an even cooldown even when you have heavy as heck guns? Do you think it is supposed to deal your surprise attack damage over 2.5 seconds after the first shot is fired? I don't know, but those certainly sound like bugs to me.

Also, no other single ability acts as that strong an offence and that strong a defence. There is your evidence. TC is the ultimate defence and the ultimate offencive skill. Either one of those things alone would be fine, but both is too much. Add that on top of the earlier mentioned things and reload canceling and now it is also one of the fastest skills there are too. The only thing Infiltrators can't do is Biotics for explosions to do area damage. Then the Krysae came out and that was the final straw. People just got tired and fed up with it. Krysae isn't what makes infiltrator's op, it was just another nail in their coffin.

#283
capn233

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Thank you for more entertainment.

If anything a mild change to the general purpose damage bonus is in order. Crazy changes, as many have suggested, would not be very good.

It would also be nice if they adjust most of the sniper rifles so that they were actually decent relative to pistols.

#284
Guest_N7 Krisixus_*

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Tactical cloak is working as fine as it was in the demo even if it is just bugs don't you think they would have fixed that a long time ago and who said it about being a offensive skill and defensive skill, sure its powerful offensivelybut not the most powerful thats a big understatement and defensively it doesn't make them completely invisible like I could still shoot at a geth hunter or a phantom cloaked and I still get hit by atlas or a turret when im cloaked or get tracked shots from a geth prime when cloaked.

And TC isn't the most ultimate offensive skill but it is one of them I won't argue with that,l a single smash from an ex cerberus adept with power amplifier III and power amp gear V followed by the power synergy from the biotic charge charge could portentially do more damage then a TC user along with the reegar still firing during the smash animation

I decided it would be ok to get nerfed maybe just a little a bit but not too much or maybe compensate something for the damage bonus loss.

Modifié par N7 Rixus, 14 juin 2012 - 08:13 .


#285
GodlessPaladin

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Kronner wrote...
But somehow Cloak needs a freaking 40% weapon damage nerf, shorter damage bonus window and longer cooldown. LOL


Agreed.  I think TC could stand to have a few changes, but some of the suggestions I see are ridiculous.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 14 juin 2012 - 08:50 .


#286
Lord Rosario

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N7 Rixus wrote...

Tactical cloak is working as fine as it was in the demo even if it is just bugs don't you think they would have fixed that a long time ago and who said it about being a offensive skill and defensive skill, sure its powerful offensivelybut not the most powerful thats a big understatement and defensively it doesn't make them completely invisible like I could still shoot at a geth hunter or a phantom cloaked and I still get hit by atlas or a turret when im cloaked or get tracked shots from a geth prime when cloaked.

And TC isn't the most ultimate offensive skill but it is one of them I won't argue with that,l a single smash from an ex cerberus adept with power amplifier III and power amp gear V followed by the power synergy from the biotic charge charge could portentially do more damage then a TC user along with the reegar still firing during the smash animation

I decided it would be ok to get nerfed maybe just a little a bit but not too much or maybe compensate something for the damage bonus loss.


Sorry, adepts doing explosions takes skill and knowledge of how they work. That makes up for the lack of aiming. Also, their explosions can be screwed up by any tech or special ammo that happens to hit that enemy. This also makes up for not having to aim. [not going to bring up the Krysae because it's a dry arguement]

Also, due to the fact that TC's damage boost lasts for 2.5 seconds after you drop from cloak, and that even with max weight the recharge is 3.5 seconds if you fire immediately, Infiltrators get far more sustained damage than any class, including soldiers.

Also also, for not being able to take out an enemy in a single shot, just use one of those skills. Salarian Infiltrator is great for knocking out shields before firing.

Personally, I agree that shieldgate needs to be removed. But that should only happen if TC gets a few changes. Needs to be that only the first shot or ability from TC gives the damage boost. This would make firing one skill and remaining hidden much more useful. Also, TC should have a uniform cooldown so that you cant just hide and immidiately fire for max cooldown no matter how heavy your gun is and how little you put into power recharge speed.

#287
FlowCytometry

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Yup, I'd agree to minor nerfs to TC. Imo the main problem w/ the all dmg bonus is when its applied to aoe abilities, like aoe ED, PM, arc nades- and wpns like the Krysea- the wpn boost is honestly less an offender for all non-Krysae guns.

Put it this way: would you honestly consider the human infil OP, considering that TC is pretty much all it has going for it?

To me, Infils *need* to bring good dmg because they are doing a team a disservice overall by dumping aggro on them. The Infil basically has to cover that inconvenience (and they do- but forcing teammates into cover or more peril isn't good, neither is having to do more combat revives because they are in more peril, etc). Their high single target dmg is honestly mostly fine; I dun think most would disagree to keeping Infils as 'boss-killers'- it just makes sense for the class. The issue to me, again, is the aoe powers (and we'll extend this to the Krysae's splash since its the only wpn based aoe that gets the R6 boost).

Also, since he was mentioned in the OP (along w/ engineeers and sentinels, who are not usually considered dmg classes but support classes, btw).. Human solider is a beast w/ the right loadout. If you want a combo of good wpn dmg and burst dmg (single from AR's reload, multiple via frag spam), potentially very good burst soaking/tanking ability, good mobility, and while *not* having to dump aggro on ur team.. the human soldier is ur man! (or woman)

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 14 juin 2012 - 08:53 .


#288
GodlessPaladin

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FlowCytometry wrote...
Put it this way: would you honestly consider the human infil OP, considering that TC is pretty much all it has going for it?

  Nope!  But then I think TC should be adjusted and Cryo Blast, Sabotage, and Sticky Grenades should be buffed a tad.  And that boss headshots should come back in some form, even if it's at a % like 50% + headshot damage bonuses from gear/skills instead of 250%.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 14 juin 2012 - 09:04 .


#289
Lord Rosario

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FlowCytometry wrote...
Put it this way: would you honestly consider the human infil OP, considering that TC is pretty much all it has going for it?



Actually, it's a pretty good combo for newbie infiltrators [as the starter characters should be.] TC, then Cryo with the ability to stay hidden after using a power, then when they are slow and an easy target, headshot. Nice for newbies :]

#290
V_Davion

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no

http://social.biowar.../index/12562832

Modifié par V_Davion, 14 juin 2012 - 08:59 .


#291
Lord Rosario

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

FlowCytometry wrote...
Put it this way: would you honestly consider the human infil OP, considering that TC is pretty much all it has going for it?

  Nope!  But then I think TC should be adjusted and Cryo Blast, Incinerate, Sabotage, and Sticky Grenades should be buffed a tad.  And that boss headshots should come back in some form, even if it's at a % like 50% + headshot damage bonuses from gear/skills instead of 250%.


I'd love Sabotage on my Quarian to get a buff! It's the perfect thing to make a distraction while picking up team mates.

#292
Lord Rosario

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V_Davion wrote...

Yes

http://social.biowar...ndex/12557566/1


Fixed.

Modifié par Lord Rosario, 14 juin 2012 - 09:03 .


#293
FlowCytometry

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Yeah, cryo is nice for learning the ropes w/ sniping (or shotgunning, as my first real forays into Infiltration went >> )- at least its a way for would be asari stasis snipers to play something that wasn't as hard to accept in randoms :P
I would agree w/ GP that abilities like Cryo and Stickies need some love, yeah. BW's to do list is monstrous; starting to feel bad for em.. kinda.

#294
Lord Rosario

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FlowCytometry wrote...

Yeah, cryo is nice for learning the ropes w/ sniping (or shotgunning, as my first real forays into Infiltration went >> )- at least its a way for would be asari stasis snipers to play something that wasn't as hard to accept in randoms :P
I would agree w/ GP that abilities like Cryo and Stickies need some love, yeah. BW's to do list is monstrous; starting to feel bad for em.. kinda.


They are never going to fix everything. Would take years. It's their first multiplayer for MAss Effe
ct so you can't really blame them too much for the grotesque ammount of bugs and balance issues, though the balance issues aren't nearl as bad as some games I could mention.. *cough* Call of Duty *cough cough*

#295
nicethugbert

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Infiltrators are pure bull ship. I just got done playing with two infiltrators. I was getting surrounded and shot at from two or three ends of the map. I couldn't take a shot without getting my shields stripped, playing a krogan sentinal with 50% DR and over 1000 shields. I was whittling mooks down with a KRYSAE and incinerate only to have these cheap bastards take the finishing shot with their black widows, INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON THE HARDER TARGETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear Infiltrators, Go. Pluck. Yourself. Worthless trash.

#296
ExecutorBG

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I just love it how people use maths to calculate dmg in perfect situations but never consider the facts that sniper rifles are hard to aim in close quarter combat, and how you can hardly affect all targets with all those "force skills" in order to get that magical 300% dmg boost. And additionally the health and and shield gate mechanics cause a really big deal of that dmg to get lost.
Also each sniper shot is a hit or miss, meaning that 1 shot missed makes a really great difference, whereas other weapons are much less forgiving (and on the other hand a lot more likely to miss single shots).

So this math is totally useless.

Also considering the fact that dmg doesn't synergise with anything whereas skills like overload do AOE dmg and are usefull for the team can also make a lot of difference.

The point is that team synergy and skills that help the team are compensating in a big way the said number differences that you are pointing out.

The only point that I agree on is that Arc Granade taking bonus dmg from cloak is way overpowered :D

Also combine that with how buggy and unreliable tactical cloak is with the new weapons...

Modifié par ExecutorBG, 14 juin 2012 - 09:14 .


#297
nicethugbert

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ExecutorBG wrote...

I just love it how people use maths to calculate dmg in perfect situations but never consider the facts that sniper rifles are hard to aim in close quarter combat, and how you can hardly affect all targets with all those "force skills" in order to get that magical 300% dmg boost. And additionally the health and and shield gate mechanics cause a really big deal of that dmg to get lost.
Also each sniper shot is a hit or miss, meaning that 1 shot missed makes a really great difference, whereas other weapons are much less forgiving (and on the other hand a lot more likely to miss single shots).

So this math is totally useless.

Also considering the fact that dmg doesn't synergise with anything whereas skills like overload do AOE dmg and are usefull for the team can also make a lot of difference.

The point is that team synergy and skills that help the team are compensating in a big way the said number differences that you are pointing out.

The only point that I agree on is that Arc Granade taking bonus dmg from cloak is way overpowered :D

Also combine that with how buggy and unreliable tactical cloak is with the new weapons...


All that applies to non-infiltrators and it's even worse for them as they don't get the huge damage boosts and can't DUMP AGGRO ON THEIR TEAM.  Infiltrators are cheesy-easy-backstabber-mode

Modifié par nicethugbert, 14 juin 2012 - 09:18 .


#298
Kronner

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nicethugbert wrote...

Infiltrators are pure bull ship. I just got done playing with two infiltrators. I was getting surrounded and shot at from two or three ends of the map. I couldn't take a shot without getting my shields stripped, playing a krogan sentinal with 50% DR and over 1000 shields. I was whittling mooks down with a KRYSAE and incinerate only to have these cheap bastards take the finishing shot with their black widows, INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON THE HARDER TARGETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear Infiltrators, Go. Pluck. Yourself. Worthless trash.


I played with two Adepts today. The ****ers have been screwing up my headshots with Shockwave. Dear Adepts, go pluck yourselves. Worthless trash.

I played with two Sentinels today. The ****ers have been detonating MY biotic bombs. Stealing MY kills.
Dear Sentinels, go pluck yourselves. Worthless trash. 

I played with two Engineers today. 
The ****ers have been spamming overload and thus screwing up my biotic bombs. Dear Engineers, go pluck yourselves. Worthless trash.  

I played with two Vanguards today. The ****ers have been spamming Nova, shaking my screen, screwing up my shots, stealing MY kills. 
Dear Vanguards, go pluck yourselves. Worthless trash.  

I played with two Soldiers today. The ****ers kill too fast. Nerf herp derp. 
Dear Soldiers, go pluck yourselves. Worthless trash.   

:ph34r:

Modifié par Kronner, 14 juin 2012 - 09:20 .


#299
Darksaberexile

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nicethugbert wrote...

Infiltrators are pure bull ship. I just got done playing with two infiltrators. I was getting surrounded and shot at from two or three ends of the map. I couldn't take a shot without getting my shields stripped, playing a krogan sentinal with 50% DR and over 1000 shields. I was whittling mooks down with a KRYSAE and incinerate only to have these cheap bastards take the finishing shot with their black widows, INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON THE HARDER TARGETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear Infiltrators, Go. Pluck. Yourself. Worthless trash.


Yes, we shall now judge everything in game by how a sample of 2 people play with the weapon/class/map. Apparently everyone in game will always run far away from their team, only to be downed and executed because no one has a chance to reach and revive them. (I've seen it done by more than 2 people, so we have to assume it will be done by everyone to ever enter a multiplayer game, right?)  [Is this sarcastic enough?]

#300
Poison_Berrie

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

Nope!  But then I think TC should be adjusted and Cryo Blast, Sabotage, and Sticky Grenades should be buffed a tad.  And that boss headshots should come back in some form, even if it's at a % like 50% + headshot damage bonuses from gear/skills instead of 250%. 

I'd be nice if all bosses had structural weaknesses like Ravagers, Brutes or the ATLAS