456 réponses à ce sujet

[SkreeMalicious]

ill just leave this here
http://social.biowar...45/polls/35324/

Modifié par SkreeMalicious, 14 juin 2012 - 10:15 .

[Gamemako]

SkreeMalicious wrote...

ill just leave this here
http://social.biowar...45/polls/35324/

This poll is a straw man of the Tactical Cloak debate. There are no other combinations which hold a candle to Cloak, and buffing everything else in the game is unreasonable. The wording is also comically loaded.

[Sabbatine]

Where's the petition to stop people from creating waste-of-space forum threads about nerfing stuff?

[nicethugbert]

robarcool wrote...

Kronner wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
Riddle me this:
If I "dump" aggro on my team, why would anyone want to play with me EVEN IF I make up for that with my damage output? It is a TEAM game.  Know anybody who sees tactcal cloak and thinks to themselves, "Awesome!  I so want to be a decoy and a bullet sponge!  I don't actually want to do anything but try to find cover only to be flushed out again and shreaded by crossfire as I run around.  I like lots of running around, especially by the infiltrators.  It makes stuff spawn everywhere so I can get mobbed so much easier.  Glad someone else can get us through the match."

Incidentally, my score is a lot better and the game a lot easier when I play infiltrator and I'm far from the best player, even without the Krysae or Reeger.  That is besides the point that tac cloak is UNFAIR to non-infiltrators.  It doesn't matter how shippy or not the infiltrator is.  Aggro dump is aggro dump, a decoy is a decoy,  a bullet sponge is a bullet sponge.  I don't want to play as decoy or bullet sponge.

So don't play with 3 Infiltrators on the same team. If you only have one or two, the aggro "dump" is not a problem at all. It is only a problem if you are the only non-Infiltrator. This is not a problem that stems from Cloak. It stems from stupid team composition. It's like complaining that you are not able to biotic bomb because you are Asari Justicar on a team full of Engineers. Stupid. Team. Composition.

And yes it is a team game and for that reason it should be obvious that a well played Infiltrator is a great addition to any team. Some people enjoy playing support classes. Some people are scoreboard ****s. What else is new?

It is a very reasonable argument. But some won't see the reason at all.

There was thread around here a while back by somebody who will not play with infiltrators and has them booted from the server when he hosts.  A lot of the forumites didn't like that.

[Gamemako]

Sabbatine wrote...

Where's the petition to stop people from creating waste-of-space forum threads about nerfing stuff?

Where's the petition to make all humans my mind-controlled slaves?

Oh, wait, not ME3-related.

Modifié par Gamemako, 14 juin 2012 - 10:27 .

[Catastrophy]

No, thanks. Cloaking, Hiding, Sneaking has been my favourite gameplay feature since the "Thief" series.
TC works fine for me and for my teammates. The only thing to be touched is the cooldown "shortcut", imo.

[Lord Rosario]

Kronner wrote...

Gamemako wrote...
"So just quit the game altogether!"

Perfectly reasonable, right?

If your solution to a problem is "my way or the highway", it's probably not a viable solution.

//EDIT: Edited for tone.

In this particular instance - 3 Infiltrators in a lobby, you will be THE target regardless of how much the nerf hammer strikes the TC. So yea, either go Infiltrator too or find a different lobby. There is no other solution short of removing Cloak from the game completely.

Or you could, I don't know.. pick a class that is made to take the agro? Like a Krugan Vanguard or a Salarian Engineer, or a Human Soldier, etc. You are not limited unless you believe you are. I keep trying to tell people to play smart, but apparently that is beyond many people's abilitiy.

[Lord Rosario]

nicethugbert wrote...

Riddle me this:
If I "dump" aggro on my team, why would anyone want to play with me EVEN IF I make up for that with my damage output? It is a TEAM game.  Know anybody who sees tactcal cloak and thinks to themselves, "Awesome!  I so want to be a decoy and a bullet sponge!  I don't actually want to do anything but try to find cover only to be flushed out again and shreaded by crossfire as I run around.  I like lots of running around, especially by the infiltrators.  It makes stuff spawn everywhere so I can get mobbed so much easier.  Glad someone else can get us through the match."

Incidentally, my score is a lot better and the game a lot easier when I play infiltrator and I'm far from the best player, even without the Krysae or Reeger.  That is besides the point that tac cloak is UNFAIR to non-infiltrators.  It doesn't matter how shippy or not the infiltrator is.  Aggro dump is aggro dump, a decoy is a decoy,  a bullet sponge is a bullet sponge.  I don't want to play as decoy or bullet sponge.

Salarian Engineers and Krogan Vanguards love to be bullet sponges! Anyhow, that aside, Infiltrators are supposed to make up for dumping agro on their team not with damage output. They are supposed to use that cloak to keep their team up and alive while using their other abilities as support [at least I think so]. Makes for an all around better experience for everyone.

[nicethugbert]

dr_random wrote...

No, thanks. Cloaking, Hiding, Sneaking has been my favourite gameplay feature since the "Thief" series.
TC works fine for me and for my teammates. The only thing to be touched is the cooldown "shortcut", imo.

Not if we are on the same team and half or more of the team consists of Infiltrators..  Then I play with Nova or Shockwave and I don't care if your screen shakes because I'm the one taking the fire when you hide.

[nicethugbert]

Lord Rosario wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Riddle me this:
If I "dump" aggro on my team, why would anyone want to play with me EVEN IF I make up for that with my damage output? It is a TEAM game.  Know anybody who sees tactcal cloak and thinks to themselves, "Awesome!  I so want to be a decoy and a bullet sponge!  I don't actually want to do anything but try to find cover only to be flushed out again and shreaded by crossfire as I run around.  I like lots of running around, especially by the infiltrators.  It makes stuff spawn everywhere so I can get mobbed so much easier.  Glad someone else can get us through the match."

Incidentally, my score is a lot better and the game a lot easier when I play infiltrator and I'm far from the best player, even without the Krysae or Reeger.  That is besides the point that tac cloak is UNFAIR to non-infiltrators.  It doesn't matter how shippy or not the infiltrator is.  Aggro dump is aggro dump, a decoy is a decoy,  a bullet sponge is a bullet sponge.  I don't want to play as decoy or bullet sponge.

Salarian Engineers and Krogan Vanguards love to be bullet sponges! Anyhow, that aside, Infiltrators are supposed to make up for dumping agro on their team not with damage output. They are supposed to use that cloak to keep their team up and alive while using their other abilities as support [at least I think so]. Makes for an all around better experience for everyone.

Yeah, on Bronze where nothing can just strip away 1200 Shields with 30% DR in one shot.  Even 1600 shields with 30% DR is only good for one hit.  The second bites right into your health.  Sadly, Krogan don't regenerate as they are supposed to.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 14 juin 2012 - 10:43 .

[Lord Rosario]

nicethugbert wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Riddle me this:
If I "dump" aggro on my team, why would anyone want to play with me EVEN IF I make up for that with my damage output? It is a TEAM game.  Know anybody who sees tactcal cloak and thinks to themselves, "Awesome!  I so want to be a decoy and a bullet sponge!  I don't actually want to do anything but try to find cover only to be flushed out again and shreaded by crossfire as I run around.  I like lots of running around, especially by the infiltrators.  It makes stuff spawn everywhere so I can get mobbed so much easier.  Glad someone else can get us through the match."

Incidentally, my score is a lot better and the game a lot easier when I play infiltrator and I'm far from the best player, even without the Krysae or Reeger.  That is besides the point that tac cloak is UNFAIR to non-infiltrators.  It doesn't matter how shippy or not the infiltrator is.  Aggro dump is aggro dump, a decoy is a decoy,  a bullet sponge is a bullet sponge.  I don't want to play as decoy or bullet sponge.

Salarian Engineers and Krogan Vanguards love to be bullet sponges! Anyhow, that aside, Infiltrators are supposed to make up for dumping agro on their team not with damage output. They are supposed to use that cloak to keep their team up and alive while using their other abilities as support [at least I think so]. Makes for an all around better experience for everyone.

Yeah, on Bronze where nothing can just strip away 1200 Shields with 30% DR in one shot.  Even 1600 shields with 30% DR is only good for one hit.  The second bites right into your health.  Sadly, Krogan don't regenerate as they are supposed to.

Try putting shield boost consumables and gear on. You will be untouchable. 3500 shields and you can tank two geth primes. For anything besides Geth, you really don't even need the consumables.

[Kronner]

Lord Rosario wrote...

Or you could, I don't know.. pick a class that is made to take the agro? Like a Krugan Vanguard or a Salarian Engineer, or a Human Soldier, etc. You are not limited unless you believe you are. I keep trying to tell people to play smart, but apparently that is beyond many people's abilitiy.

Or you could, I don't know..read properly. The guy was complaining that all the aggro is on him. There was no talk of his class. If that is not a problem for you (i.e. you might be playing krogan Vanguard), great!

If you do not like to have aggro on you for whatever reason you have two options either leave or play Infiltrator.

I keep trying to tell people to read properly, but apparently that is beyond many people's abilitiy. 

Modifié par Kronner, 14 juin 2012 - 11:00 .

[Lord Rosario]

Kronner wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

Or you could, I don't know.. pick a class that is made to take the agro? Like a Krugan Vanguard or a Salarian Engineer, or a Human Soldier, etc. You are not limited unless you believe you are. I keep trying to tell people to play smart, but apparently that is beyond many people's abilitiy.

Or you could, I don't know..read properly. The guy was complaining that all the aggro is on him. There was no talk of his class. If that is not a problem for you (i.e. you might be playing krogan Vanguard), great!

If you do not like to have aggro on you for whatever reason you have two options either leave or play Infiltrator.

I keep trying to tell people to read properly, but apparently that is beyond many people's abilitiy. 

I do read properly. Obviously you don't. The quote you just pulled there was in reply to this:

"In this particular instance - 3 Infiltrators in a lobby, you will be THE
target regardless of how much the nerf hammer strikes the TC. So yea,
either go Infiltrator too or find a different lobby. There is no other
solution short of removing Cloak from the game completely."

I think you were reading the nicethugbert's post and trying to pin this reply to that post. YOU learn to read properly, especially before accusing others of such.

[xxHiDa SuFixx]

I can't help but feel that some of this hate toward TC has to do with people's skill levels.

I'm not one of the best but I feel I'm pretty good ... when I play infiltrator I have almost never scored below 1st place in a PUG ... but when I play with people on my friends list ... its often a toss up on who will place 1st on the score board regardless of class/build.

A friend of mine was keeping pace with my SI using Valiant 3 with his Turian Soldier using Revenant X ... I was curious about his build because I only use Batarian and Human soldiers ...

After giving his build a few runs ... I've placed 1st with my Turian Soldier w Revenant multiple times in PUGs ... and yes there were infiltrators in the lobby ... and yes 2x even had a Krysae.

[robarcool]

nicethugbert wrote...

robarcool wrote...

Kronner wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
Riddle me this:
If I "dump" aggro on my team, why would anyone want to play with me EVEN IF I make up for that with my damage output? It is a TEAM game.  Know anybody who sees tactcal cloak and thinks to themselves, "Awesome!  I so want to be a decoy and a bullet sponge!  I don't actually want to do anything but try to find cover only to be flushed out again and shreaded by crossfire as I run around.  I like lots of running around, especially by the infiltrators.  It makes stuff spawn everywhere so I can get mobbed so much easier.  Glad someone else can get us through the match."

Incidentally, my score is a lot better and the game a lot easier when I play infiltrator and I'm far from the best player, even without the Krysae or Reeger.  That is besides the point that tac cloak is UNFAIR to non-infiltrators.  It doesn't matter how shippy or not the infiltrator is.  Aggro dump is aggro dump, a decoy is a decoy,  a bullet sponge is a bullet sponge.  I don't want to play as decoy or bullet sponge.

So don't play with 3 Infiltrators on the same team. If you only have one or two, the aggro "dump" is not a problem at all. It is only a problem if you are the only non-Infiltrator. This is not a problem that stems from Cloak. It stems from stupid team composition. It's like complaining that you are not able to biotic bomb because you are Asari Justicar on a team full of Engineers. Stupid. Team. Composition.

And yes it is a team game and for that reason it should be obvious that a well played Infiltrator is a great addition to any team. Some people enjoy playing support classes. Some people are scoreboard ****s. What else is new?

It is a very reasonable argument. But some won't see the reason at all.

There was thread around here a while back by somebody who will not play with infiltrators and has them booted from the server when he hosts.  A lot of the forumites didn't like that.

Yep, that someone just got told by Thomas Abram that his math is all wrong and his so called fact about a lot of players wanting tc nerf is just full of hot air.

[Kronner]

Lord Rosario wrote...

I do read properly. Obviously you don't. The quote you just pulled there was in reply to this:

"In this particular instance - 3 Infiltrators in a lobby, you will be THE
target regardless of how much the nerf hammer strikes the TC. So yea,
either go Infiltrator too or find a different lobby. There is no other
solution short of removing Cloak from the game completely."

I think you were reading the nicethugbert's post and trying to pin this reply to that post. YOU learn to read properly, especially before accusing others of such.

LOL

Read my post again. I say that "you will be THE target regardless of how much the nerf hammer strikes the TC". Which is true. He had a problem with that. So I said "either go Infiltrator too or find a different lobby", which is true as well.

The fact that some classes thrive on being THE target is irrelevant here. nicethugbert clearly said he did not like being the only non-Cloaked player.

Modifié par Kronner, 14 juin 2012 - 11:27 .

[Lord Rosario]

Kronner wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

I do read properly. Obviously you don't. The quote you just pulled there was in reply to this:

"In this particular instance - 3 Infiltrators in a lobby, you will be THE
target regardless of how much the nerf hammer strikes the TC. So yea,
either go Infiltrator too or find a different lobby. There is no other
solution short of removing Cloak from the game completely."

I think you were reading the nicethugbert's post and trying to pin this reply to that post. YOU learn to read properly, especially before accusing others of such.

LOL

Read my post again. I say that "you will be THE target regardless of how much the nerf hammer strikes the TC". Which is true. He had a problem with that. So I said "either go Infiltrator too or find a different lobby", which is true as well.

The fact that some classes thrive on being THE target is irrelevant here. nicethugbert clearly said he did not like being the only non-Cloaked player.

nicetheugbert was not who you quoted and not who I was replying to. You were. Your post alone. So next time, before insulting someone's ability to read, perhaps you should post in a fassion that does not require people to scoure a 14 page thread for every one of your posts before replying to a single one. Use quotes better.

So sorry for saying you can't read.. I suppose saying you can't right would be more appropriate here.

Anyways, my point will change a bit due to the new information. Most infiltrators will be cloaked for less than a second. They won't make you a bullet sponge unless they don't shoot, move, use powers, or harm the enemy in any way. If that's the case, then that team is crap anyways.

[Kronner]

Lord Rosario wrote...

nicetheugbert was not who you quoted and not who I was replying to. You were. Your post alone. So next time, before insulting someone's ability to read, perhaps you should post in a fassion that does not require people to scoure a 14 page thread for every one of your posts before replying to a single one. Use quotes better.

So sorry for saying you can't read.. I suppose saying you can't right would be more appropriate here. 

 

Yea.

Anyway, I was quoting someone else, but still taking nicethugbert's situation as the basis - he disliked being the lone non-Infiltrator on a team. The only way to avoid that is to leave the lobby or play Infiltrator. Otherwise you will still be the lone Infiltrator (the fact that some classes have no problem with that is irrelevant). I thought it was obvious.

Also, my "accusation" was tongue-in-cheek response to your accusation that I did not know that some classes are great bullet sponges. I even copied the whole accusation you wrote and only changed bits.

Lord Rosario wrote... 
Anyways, my point will change a bit due to the new information. Most infiltrators will be cloaked for less than a second. They won't make you a bullet sponge unless they don't shoot, move, use powers, or harm the enemy in any way. If that's the case, then that team is crap anyways.

Yes, which was my reasoning behind saying that 2 Infiltrators on a team do not make anyone bullet sponge. 3 is more problematic and it depends on the map too.

[nicethugbert]

Lord Rosario wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Riddle me this:
If I "dump" aggro on my team, why would anyone want to play with me EVEN IF I make up for that with my damage output? It is a TEAM game.  Know anybody who sees tactcal cloak and thinks to themselves, "Awesome!  I so want to be a decoy and a bullet sponge!  I don't actually want to do anything but try to find cover only to be flushed out again and shreaded by crossfire as I run around.  I like lots of running around, especially by the infiltrators.  It makes stuff spawn everywhere so I can get mobbed so much easier.  Glad someone else can get us through the match."

Incidentally, my score is a lot better and the game a lot easier when I play infiltrator and I'm far from the best player, even without the Krysae or Reeger.  That is besides the point that tac cloak is UNFAIR to non-infiltrators.  It doesn't matter how shippy or not the infiltrator is.  Aggro dump is aggro dump, a decoy is a decoy,  a bullet sponge is a bullet sponge.  I don't want to play as decoy or bullet sponge.

Salarian Engineers and Krogan Vanguards love to be bullet sponges! Anyhow, that aside, Infiltrators are supposed to make up for dumping agro on their team not with damage output. They are supposed to use that cloak to keep their team up and alive while using their other abilities as support [at least I think so]. Makes for an all around better experience for everyone.

Yeah, on Bronze where nothing can just strip away 1200 Shields with 30% DR in one shot.  Even 1600 shields with 30% DR is only good for one hit.  The second bites right into your health.  Sadly, Krogan don't regenerate as they are supposed to.

Try putting shield boost consumables and gear on. You will be untouchable. 3500 shields and you can tank two geth primes. For anything besides Geth, you really don't even need the consumables.

It's amazing what a flippant attitude people have towards the effect of infiltrators on the game, and on non-infiltrators, of the forced choice between playing decoy/bullet-sponge or not playing with people who play the class.  But, we must nerf the Krysae and Reeger.  Somehow, having to structure the game and one's game play around one class does not make that class OP.  But, Krysae and Reeger are OP.  So, those weapons must be nerfed yet the Infiltrator doesn't suffer from the nerf nearly as much as the other classes do.  By the time those guns are nerfed so that they are not WMD in the hands of an infiltrator, they'll be water guns in the hands of all the other classes.  But, the problem is still somehow not the infiltrator.

[Lord Rosario]

[quote]nicethugbert wrote...

[quote]Lord Rosario wrote...

[quote]nicethugbert wrote...

[quote]Lord Rosario wrote...

[quote]nicethugbert wrote...

Riddle me this:
If I "dump" aggro on my team, why would anyone want to play with me EVEN IF I make up for that with my damage output? It is a TEAM game.  Know anybody who sees tactcal cloak and thinks to themselves, "Awesome!  I so want to be a decoy and a bullet sponge!  I don't actually want to do anything but try to find cover only to be flushed out again and shreaded by crossfire as I run around.  I like lots of running around, especially by the infiltrators.  It makes stuff spawn everywhere so I can get mobbed so much easier.  Glad someone else can get us through the match."

Incidentally, my score is a lot better and the game a lot easier when I play infiltrator and I'm far from the best player, even without the Krysae or Reeger.  That is besides the point that tac cloak is UNFAIR to non-infiltrators.  It doesn't matter how shippy or not the infiltrator is.  Aggro dump is aggro dump, a decoy is a decoy,  a bullet sponge is a bullet sponge.  I don't want to play as decoy or bullet sponge.[/quote]

Salarian Engineers and Krogan Vanguards love to be bullet sponges! Anyhow, that aside, Infiltrators are supposed to make up for dumping agro on their team not with damage output. They are supposed to use that cloak to keep their team up and alive while using their other abilities as support [at least I think so]. Makes for an all around better experience for everyone.
[/quote]

Yeah, on Bronze where nothing can just strip away 1200 Shields with 30% DR in one shot.  Even 1600 shields with 30% DR is only good for one hit.  The second bites right into your health.  Sadly, Krogan don't regenerate as they are supposed to.

[/quote]

Try putting shield boost consumables and gear on. You will be untouchable. 3500 shields and you can tank two geth primes. For anything besides Geth, you really don't even need the consumables.

[/quote]

It's amazing what a flippant attitude people have towards the effect of infiltrators on the game, and on non-infiltrators, of the forced choice between playing decoy/bullet-sponge or not playing with people who play the class.  But, we must nerf the Krysae and Reeger.  Somehow, having to structure the game and one's game play around one class does not make that class OP.  But, Krysae and Reeger are OP.  So, those weapons must be nerfed yet the Infiltrator doesn't suffer from the nerf nearly as much as the other classes do.  By the time those guns are nerfed so that they are not WMD in the hands of an infiltrator, they'll be water guns in the hands of all the other classes.  But, the problem is still somehow not the infiltrator.

[/quote]

Where did I say infiltrators are not op? Here is my standpoint on infiltrators:

"Only good arguement I have heard on the side of not balancing the TC is
that many people will leave if Bioware does change it. That is not
acceptable to the creators of the game even if it means making the game
better. Tactical cloak in a nutshell: "They have higher weapon dps than a
soldier, better survivability than a sentinel, and better power damage
than an engineer." [quote from cuzIMgood] With a shotgun and high melee
an infiltrator is now better at close range than vanguards too and on
top of all that infiltrators make the best medics. PLEASE tell me how
that is not op? "

Being able to hide from enemies is not the problem with TC. There are a lot of issues with it, but that is the one thign it should do if nothing else.

[Gamemako]

Lord Rosario wrote...

Being able to hide from enemies is not the problem with TC. There are a lot of issues with it, but that is the one thign it should do if nothing else.

That alone makes it worth using. I just don't understand how it got lost and became a 150% damage buff for 67.5% of the player's time as well.

[El Chupacabra49]

We shouldn't be talkin about nerfing them but buff other classes and adding extra challenges to encourage team work for example instrading of nerfing why not:

Solider
Decrease cool down time for AR so you can reload cancel like TC and now you can fire the BW without ever having to reload

Adapt
Change from pistol weight reduction to all weapons reduction and buff power increase in tree 10 percent

Engineer
Change fire and cyro explosion criteria to be like tech and biotic explosions and decrease power and radius of them to account for spamming

Sentinel
Make tech armor like it was in ME3 so it explodes after x damage and you have to reactiviate it. Take away the cooldown penalty. This will allow for suicide explosions and reload canceling off the explosion

Difficulty Changes

Make a platinum difficulty
Give people the ability to select all factions (imagine primes banshees and phantoms in the same waves)

New Mods

Make rebuff mods to make the game harder

[Chaoswind]

Like i said before

Infiltrator is holding weapons back, that is something that no respected infiltrator player can deny, ALL burst type weapons are 2 times better on infiltrators and that is why they get nerfed.

Infiltrators is holding weapon damage back, the Krysae is the latest example, but if things keep like this the Claymore is soon to follow, and no one wants to have ****ty guns that will suck on any class besides infiltrators.

If we nerf the infiltrator total damage bonuses by 15 or 10% and then increase the powers of all weapons by 10 or 5% the infiltrators will still be murder beast while not having as huge as advantage over the rest of the classes.

Honestly only the Harrier, Hurricane and the revenant are better on soldier classes than infiltrators, and just a little inferior on the rest.

[Biotic_Warlock]

As long as they buff the melee cloak to 70%...

/signed.