456 réponses à ce sujet

[AlienAtSystem]

A Wild Snorlax wrote...

The thing is some of the points in your original post are so poorly thought out and it's so very obvious that you've made them based on a general lack of experience or skill, or both. To me your suggestions are so bad that I'd consider it borderline trolling/griefing because I really can't tell if you're trying to ruin the game for others, or if you're just completely clueless and thus shouldn't be posting any balancing ideas whatsoever.

I would try to be productive and constructive if it seemed like you had even a little bit of understanding of how this game and the classes work on the higher difficulties, however it's pretty obvious that you don't and your original post is based on this lack of understanding, therefore I don't bother.

Instead of telling me that I have poorly thought out points in my argumentation and that I therefore cannot be taken seriously, why don't you go ahead and tell me what points I should improve, as the other posters in this thread did. And that you are still answering shows that you indeed bother. I, however, will no longer given your lack of arguments that are actually concerning the Tactical Cloak and not me.

[defleshing]

Lord Rosario wrote...

defleshing wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

defleshing wrote...

at lord..... your comments on nades show your lack of understanding of the game. you clearly have no idea what your taking about. which is why your points are invalid. have fun talking about things you clearly can't comprehend.

Evidence? Point? Prove me wrong? Nothing? Come on. How can you even claim that I don't comprehend these things if your entire arguement consists of "No, your wrong, you don't know what you're talking about." That is about the inteligence level of a 2 year old. Here, I'll even give evidence to back that up. often times a 2 year old childs is known to be in their "terrible twos." A time where their only reply to anything they don't like is "No."

your words. nades only effective on bronze and it takes 8 to geta killstreak. it in fact takes two grenades to get a killstreak on gold. you just arnt any good. deal.

Which grenades? Which bonuses? Which classes? What enemies are you using them against? How much damage have they already taken? Why is getting a killstreak op?

the fact that you have to ask shows your lack on experience. and throwing 2 gnades at a spawn and walking away seconds later you geta killstreak . no bullets fired if that's not op neither are infiltrators. this is non productive so you guys have fun trying to figure out the basics im out.

[Quxorda]

AlienAtSystem wrote...

A Wild Snorlax wrote...

The thing is some of the points in your original post are so poorly thought out and it's so very obvious that you've made them based on a general lack of experience or skill, or both. To me your suggestions are so bad that I'd consider it borderline trolling/griefing because I really can't tell if you're trying to ruin the game for others, or if you're just completely clueless and thus shouldn't be posting any balancing ideas whatsoever.

I would try to be productive and constructive if it seemed like you had even a little bit of understanding of how this game and the classes work on the higher difficulties, however it's pretty obvious that you don't and your original post is based on this lack of understanding, therefore I don't bother.

Instead of telling me that I have poorly thought out points in my argumentation and that I therefore cannot be taken seriously, why don't you go ahead and tell me what points I should improve, as the other posters in this thread did. And that you are still answering shows that you indeed bother. I, however, will no longer given your lack of arguments that are actually concerning the Tactical Cloak and not me.

The fact that TC is perfectly fine as it is is a good place to start. To do a 17 page balance thread about such a minor "balance" problem in the tacked on horde mode of a single player rpg is just insane. Maybe TC is a little overpowered and maybe it isn't, but eitherway it's no where near game breaking and plenty of other classes get played. I see as many engineers as I see infiltrators.

If a thread this long needs to exist, it should be about how in roughly five months Bioware has managed to release a single bug patch. A patch that managed to fix almost nothing and didn't even address many issues that have been around since beta/launch, some of which are actually game breaking. That is a much much bigger issue, yet the only thing people post about are nerfing things that beat them for imaginary points.

[Commander Castillo]

Lord Rosario why don't you just shut the hell up already. No one here likes talking with you. Stop hitting the refresh button every ten seconds and go out and get some fresh air loser

[Lord Rosario]

defleshing wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

defleshing wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

defleshing wrote...

at lord..... your comments on nades show your lack of understanding of the game. you clearly have no idea what your taking about. which is why your points are invalid. have fun talking about things you clearly can't comprehend.

Evidence? Point? Prove me wrong? Nothing? Come on. How can you even claim that I don't comprehend these things if your entire arguement consists of "No, your wrong, you don't know what you're talking about." That is about the inteligence level of a 2 year old. Here, I'll even give evidence to back that up. often times a 2 year old childs is known to be in their "terrible twos." A time where their only reply to anything they don't like is "No."

your words. nades only effective on bronze and it takes 8 to geta killstreak. it in fact takes two grenades to get a killstreak on gold. you just arnt any good. deal.

Which grenades? Which bonuses? Which classes? What enemies are you using them against? How much damage have they already taken? Why is getting a killstreak op?

the fact that you have to ask shows your lack on experience. and throwing 2 gnades at a spawn and walking away seconds later you geta killstreak . no bullets fired if that's not op neither are infiltrators. this is non productive so you guys have fun trying to figure out the basics im out.

I don't have to ask, but you should at least attempt to make a valid point whenever you post. Just posting that the other person is wrong makes you seem like either a troll or just someone not worth talking to. Grenades are also another topic entirely, but no grenade can do that level of damage on gold. Also, a single biotic explosion can do far more damage than a pair of arc grenades or frag grenades [those are the names of the stronger grenades if you didn't know.] Does that mean Biotics are op? Also, the Quarian Male Infiltrator has arc grenades, so saying that grenades are op, then having Tactical Cloak and Tactical Scan to more than double their damage would be even more op, wouldn't it? Then you wouldn't need to throw two grenades to destroy a spawn, you would only need one.. and seeing that the Quarian Male with the new grenade gear can carry 8 arc grenades, that means he can destroy 8 full spawns of enemies without even having to go to an ammo crate or use an ammo pack.

With all that, that isn't even the most powerful asset the Infiltrator has at it's disposal, and let me tell you, they have quite the arsenal of combos at their fingertips.

[Lord Rosario]

Commander Castillo wrote...

Lord Rosario why don't you just shut the hell up already. No one here likes talking with you. Stop hitting the refresh button every ten seconds and go out and get some fresh air loser

Great talking to you too. <3

[Rodia Driftwood]

Modifié par Rodia Driftwood, 15 juin 2012 - 10:24 .

[Intensity Penguin]

I don't understand why this needs to be nerfed, it's not competitive multiplayer, it's cooperative. And having infiltrators will help with successfully completing missions, so I don't know what everyone is complaining about. And, for the record, I am not a solely Infiltrator player, and yet I have no problem with the Infiltrator class being so "overpowered". That being said, I hope you get the magic number of users to "sign" your little petition to make it official.

[astheoceansblue]

Kronner wrote...

astheoceansblue wrote...
Only really matters if you get silly with your weapon choice, ie: two heavy weapons. 

infiltrators get to use any single weapon they want and, for the most part they fire as soon as they cloak so encumbrance is ignored. And even in those instances when they have to remain cloaked, there really is no single weapon in the game that cripples them with its CD, even at full duration.

The benefit far outweighs the cost.

Well, Adrenaline Rush is barely affected by encumberance too. My Claymore HS has Arush cooldown of 3.33seconds. That is pretty much Cloak-like. And I do even more damage thanks to instareload feature of Arush and 6.8 second long window of 70% extra weapon damage. 

IMHO reducing the base Cloak duration while significantly increasing rank 4 duration evolution forces Infiltrators to choose between damage and utility. To make it more balanced, the base Cloak damage could be increased from 50% to 60%, while rank 4 damage evolution would be decreased from 40% to 30%.

As a result: you could have either 90% weapon damage bonus and 4s long Cloak or 60% weapon damage bonus and 10s long Cloak. Or something like that.

Sounds resonable. One of the better suggestions that doesn't ruin the Infiltrator's output, but decreases their amount of utility which, imo, is where the imbalance really lies.

Modifié par astheoceansblue, 15 juin 2012 - 10:33 .

[A Wild Snorlax]

AlienAtSystem wrote...

A Wild Snorlax wrote...

The thing is some of the points in your original post are so poorly thought out and it's so very obvious that you've made them based on a general lack of experience or skill, or both. To me your suggestions are so bad that I'd consider it borderline trolling/griefing because I really can't tell if you're trying to ruin the game for others, or if you're just completely clueless and thus shouldn't be posting any balancing ideas whatsoever.

I would try to be productive and constructive if it seemed like you had even a little bit of understanding of how this game and the classes work on the higher difficulties, however it's pretty obvious that you don't and your original post is based on this lack of understanding, therefore I don't bother.

Instead of telling me that I have poorly thought out points in my argumentation and that I therefore cannot be taken seriously, why don't you go ahead and tell me what points I should improve, as the other posters in this thread did. And that you are still answering shows that you indeed bother. I, however, will no longer given your lack of arguments that are actually concerning the Tactical Cloak and not me.

I allready said that your suggestions for ''balance'' would turn the infiltrator into a gimped soldier with tech powers. They would do much less DPS(6.7 seconds of 70% extra damage or 2.5 seconds of 50% hmm?), and the shield boost from AR rush is in my opinion better than the somewhat broken cloak mechanic. 

Your suggestion that they should make the infiltrators focus on actual stealthing beyond what they are currently capable of is ridiculous and shows a lacking understanding of game mechanics, I allready explained why. Killing stuff fast makes you progress through rounds, trying to ''stealth'' around the map and dump aggro on your teamates does not.

The suggestion that firing a power should end the damage bonus window means you might as well remove them from the class, as using them would be a waste of your cloak.

Tinkering too much weight renders heavy weapons like the Widows/javelin useless as the infiltrators are the only ones capable of using them efectively atm, and they were so obviously built to be used on the infiltrator classes.

Serious suggestions for cloak rebalancing: double cloak base cooldown if carrying 2 weapons. You can carry one heavy weapon, if you carry 2 you suffer for it.

Lower the base duration of cloak and give a 10% bonus in addition to added longer duration at rank 4. 

Your original suggestions were way over the top ridiculous, hence why I did't bother with actual counter suggestions, because they are so blatantly poorly thought out, or you are griefing. It's like you want to take the class and put it on the ground, do a nice American history X curbstomp on its face, and then kick it in the balls after for good measure.

Modifié par A Wild Snorlax, 15 juin 2012 - 10:34 .

[Mevanna]

Oh, for heaven's sake...

Wild Snorlax, defleshing, Commander Castillo, either stop insulting people or take your flaming elsewhere. Lord Rosario, please stop encouraging them, responding to flamers never got anyone anywhere.

As I said earlier somewhere:

We are trying to be constructive here.

AlienAtSystem did everyone a service by doing the math, and now can we please go back to discussing what can/should actually be done?

[Kronner]

astheoceansblue wrote...

Kronner wrote...

astheoceansblue wrote...
Only really matters if you get silly with your weapon choice, ie: two heavy weapons. 

infiltrators get to use any single weapon they want and, for the most part they fire as soon as they cloak so encumbrance is ignored. And even in those instances when they have to remain cloaked, there really is no single weapon in the game that cripples them with its CD, even at full duration.

The benefit far outweighs the cost.

Well, Adrenaline Rush is barely affected by encumberance too. My Claymore HS has Arush cooldown of 3.33seconds. That is pretty much Cloak-like. And I do even more damage thanks to instareload feature of Arush and 6.8 second long window of 70% extra weapon damage. 

IMHO reducing the base Cloak duration while significantly increasing rank 4 duration evolution forces Infiltrators to choose between damage and utility. To make it more balanced, the base Cloak damage could be increased from 50% to 60%, while rank 4 damage evolution would be decreased from 40% to 30%.

As a result: you could have either 90% weapon damage bonus and 4s long Cloak or 60% weapon damage bonus and 10s long Cloak. Or something like that.

Sounds resonable. One of the better suggestions that doesn't ruin the Infiltrator's output, but decreases their amount of utility which, imo, is where the imbalance really lies.

This change also significantly lowers your chance of having a 3s cooldown if you take the max damage path. You will pretty much have to decloak right away, otherwise your cooldown goes up. I tested it in SP, and it really works well.

[AjaxDuo]

@those petitioning/screaming for nerfs in a co-op based pve game.



Really theres nothing wrong with tactical cloak, it's buggy enough as it is. I have been shot at from the far side of the map whilst cloaked, barbequed by Pyros whilst completing objectives...whilst cloaked, cloaked and instantly uncloaked with an infinite cooldown, be invisible whilst out of cloak then during cloak I'm visible. (and I wasn't close enough to be detected and I always cloak behind cover then move from it). Nowadays it's only useful for the damage bonus and the odd revive. Asking for nerfs in this type of game is daft, it's not an mmo. Your asking for all these things but I'm sure you continue to play the game with this said 'OP class'. Why do people always call for nerfs instead of buffs? If the game is becoming to easy for you, which imo it is. Ask for a new difficulty, Platinum/Insanity anyone?

In short these nerf petitions are just flavour of the month. Nuff' said.

Modifié par AjaxDuo, 15 juin 2012 - 01:14 .

[Mevanna]

Kronner wrote...


Well, Adrenaline Rush is barely affected by encumberance too. My Claymore HS has Arush cooldown of 3.33seconds. That is pretty much Cloak-like. And I do even more damage thanks to instareload feature of Arush and 6.8 second long window of 70% extra weapon damage. 

IMHO reducing the base Cloak duration while significantly increasing rank 4 duration evolution forces Infiltrators to choose between damage and utility. To make it more balanced, the base Cloak damage could be increased from 50% to 60%, while rank 4 damage evolution would be decreased from 40% to 30%.

As a result: you could have either 90% weapon damage bonus and 4s long Cloak or 60% weapon damage bonus and 10s long Cloak. Or something like that.

The problem I can see with that is that the majority of people would probably choose the bonus damage path over the utility path, and we'd have no tactical infiltrators left at all.

It's just... the Cloak should be tactical, like its name implies. It should be used to sneak around the battlefield doing objectives, escaping damage and assassinating people. How I'm mostly seeing it used, however, is as a spammable 166% damage boost available for 2 seconds out of every 3. That's just not tactical at all, it's a cheap, powerful version of Adrenaline Rush.
Now, I'm not going to suggest specific changes, because people will just start picking at those and ignore my actual point, but the what I'm looking for in the Tactical Cloak is to remove that... spammability. It needs a change that forces people to actually use it the way it's meant to be used - tactically. This would preferably involve adjusting TC's cooldown to take weapon weight into account, but there are probably other ways to do it.

[Kronner]

Mevanna wrote...

The problem I can see with that is that the majority of people would probably choose the bonus damage path over the utility path, and we'd have no tactical infiltrators left at all. 

 

Actually, no. I tested these changes for myself by editing the Coal.bin file and going to the firing range at the Citadel.
Shorter Cloak duration = much shorter window for decloaking if you want the 3s cooldown. You also lose a lot of the mobility and utility. The choice between a short Cloak duration with a short window for getting the 3s cooldown, but with a huge damage boost (90%) OR long Cloak duration with longer window for getting the 3s cooldown, but with a lower damage boost (60%) is much better than what the game offers now.

Mevanna wrote... 
It's just... the Cloak should be tactical, like its name implies. It should be used to sneak around the battlefield doing objectives, escaping damage and assassinating people. How I'm mostly seeing it used, however, is as a spammable 166% damage boost available for 2 seconds out of every 3. That's just not tactical at all, it's a cheap, powerful version of Adrenaline Rush. 

 

More like 2.5s long damage window every 5.5-6 seconds..assuming you decloak really quickly. Of course it is tactical. Otherwise NOTHING in the game is tactical. You spam powers with every single build save for very few niche builds..you know, builds that activate one power and do not care about the rest (Vorcha's Bloodlust, Krogan's Tech Armor).

Mevanna wrote...  
Now, I'm not going to suggest specific changes, because people will just start picking at those and ignore my actual point, but the what I'm looking for in the Tactical Cloak is to remove that... spammability. It needs a change that forces people to actually use it the way it's meant to be used - tactically. This would preferably involve adjusting TC's cooldown to take weapon weight into account, but there are probably other ways to do it.

Weapon weight solves nothing for Cloak. There are very few heavy weapons. And they are not even better than lighter or much lighter alternatives. Cloak cooldown is clearly connected to DurationOfCloakUsed/MaxCloak Duration ratio.

[LULZferBAKON]

Would it really kill people if tactical cloak had at best 50% damage bonus?
The only infiltrator I take out of farm runs is the Male Quarian Infiltrator with this build.

4/6/6/6/4 with Claymore III
I have max duration cloak, I always use it to revive, get past enemys, do objectives, etc. I can get 50% damage if I really need it.
My tactical scan allows me to reveal entire groups of enemys to myself and my team, and the cooldown is great even with the claymore.

Basically, I can hold my own versus enemys and support my team. All while using tactical cloak, as a proper cloak.

[robarcool]

LULZferBAKON wrote...

Would it really kill people if tactical cloak had at best 50% damage bonus?
The only infiltrator I take out of farm runs is the Male Quarian Infiltrator with this build.

4/6/6/6/4 with Claymore III
I have max duration cloak, I always use it to revive, get past enemys, do objectives, etc. I can get 50% damage if I really need it.
My tactical scan allows me to reveal entire groups of enemys to myself and my team, and the cooldown is great even with the claymore.

Basically, I can hold my own versus enemys and support my team. All while using tactical cloak, as a proper cloak.

I will turn your argument on itself:
Would it really kill people if tactical cloak was left untouched?

[Mevanna]

robarcool wrote...

LULZferBAKON wrote...

Would it really kill people if tactical cloak had at best 50% damage bonus?
The only infiltrator I take out of farm runs is the Male Quarian Infiltrator with this build.

4/6/6/6/4 with Claymore III
I have max duration cloak, I always use it to revive, get past enemys, do objectives, etc. I can get 50% damage if I really need it.
My tactical scan allows me to reveal entire groups of enemys to myself and my team, and the cooldown is great even with the claymore.

Basically, I can hold my own versus enemys and support my team. All while using tactical cloak, as a proper cloak.

I will turn your argument on itself:
Would it really kill people if tactical cloak was left untouched?

The pro-nerf side of this argument has been pretty good about providing plenty of proof and numbers to show that it's too strong, spread over a very large number of threads.

The only argument I ever hear from the anti-nerf side is 'I like it the way it is' or 'It's supposed to be exorbitantly stronger than anything else.' interrupted by the occasional 'shut up, you're so stupid.' 

I think the burden of proof lies with you.

[robarcool]

Mevanna wrote...

robarcool wrote...

LULZferBAKON wrote...

Would it really kill people if tactical cloak had at best 50% damage bonus?
The only infiltrator I take out of farm runs is the Male Quarian Infiltrator with this build.

4/6/6/6/4 with Claymore III
I have max duration cloak, I always use it to revive, get past enemys, do objectives, etc. I can get 50% damage if I really need it.
My tactical scan allows me to reveal entire groups of enemys to myself and my team, and the cooldown is great even with the claymore.

Basically, I can hold my own versus enemys and support my team. All while using tactical cloak, as a proper cloak.

I will turn your argument on itself:
Would it really kill people if tactical cloak was left untouched?

The pro-nerf side of this argument has been pretty good about providing plenty of proof and numbers to show that it's too strong, spread over a very large number of threads.

The only argument I ever hear from the anti-nerf side is 'I like it the way it is' or 'It's supposed to be exorbitantly stronger than anything else.' interrupted by the occasional 'shut up, you're so stupid.' 

I think the burden of proof lies with you.

So have the people who don't want to nerf cloak given many counter arguments, but no one listens. Fact is that this is internet and one can keep giving counter arguments and it still won't go anywhere.

[Mevanna]

robarcool wrote...

Mevanna wrote...

robarcool wrote...

LULZferBAKON wrote...

Would it really kill people if tactical cloak had at best 50% damage bonus?
The only infiltrator I take out of farm runs is the Male Quarian Infiltrator with this build.

4/6/6/6/4 with Claymore III
I have max duration cloak, I always use it to revive, get past enemys, do objectives, etc. I can get 50% damage if I really need it.
My tactical scan allows me to reveal entire groups of enemys to myself and my team, and the cooldown is great even with the claymore.

Basically, I can hold my own versus enemys and support my team. All while using tactical cloak, as a proper cloak.

I will turn your argument on itself:
Would it really kill people if tactical cloak was left untouched?

The pro-nerf side of this argument has been pretty good about providing plenty of proof and numbers to show that it's too strong, spread over a very large number of threads.

The only argument I ever hear from the anti-nerf side is 'I like it the way it is' or 'It's supposed to be exorbitantly stronger than anything else.' interrupted by the occasional 'shut up, you're so stupid.' 

I think the burden of proof lies with you.

So have the people who don't want to nerf cloak given many counter arguments, but no one listens. Fact is that this is internet and one can keep giving counter arguments and it still won't go anywhere.

I'm not saying there aren't good arguments going on or that people are wrong in being against nerfing, but having spent a lot of time on this topic, I can say from experience that there are very few actual arguments aside from simply saying 'no, I don't want it'. Which is sad because 50% of the time this will be expressed in a provocative sort of way and turn whatever discussion has been going on
 into a flame war.  And here I keep bringing the thread back on topic to get some decent discussions with good arguments on both sides, but with very little success.

[Typhoniel]

No. Infiltrators need no nerf.

Soldiers and the others could get some buffs maybe.

[Mystical_Gaming]

if tactical cloak gets nerfed I will be sad. Why not just buff other classes? I like being a female quarian infiltrator and being bale to revive teammates and do objectives in hot spots. I don't like the idea of that being taken away.

[Mevanna]

Mystical_Gaming wrote...

if tactical cloak gets nerfed I will be sad. Why not just buff other classes? I like being a female quarian infiltrator and being bale to revive teammates and do objectives in hot spots. I don't like the idea of that being taken away.

That's not the issue. You're using tactical cloak for the purpose it's meant for. Sadly, its potential goes far, far beyond sneaking around.

[BoomDynamite]

Kronner wrote...

astheoceansblue wrote...
Only really matters if you get silly with your weapon choice, ie: two heavy weapons. 

infiltrators get to use any single weapon they want and, for the most part they fire as soon as they cloak so encumbrance is ignored. And even in those instances when they have to remain cloaked, there really is no single weapon in the game that cripples them with its CD, even at full duration.

The benefit far outweighs the cost.

Well, Adrenaline Rush is barely affected by encumberance too. My Claymore HS has Arush cooldown of 3.33seconds. That is pretty much Cloak-like. And I do even more damage thanks to instareload feature of Arush and 6.8 second long window of 70% extra weapon damage. 

IMHO reducing the base Cloak duration while significantly increasing rank 4 duration evolution forces Infiltrators to choose between damage and utility. To make it more balanced, the base Cloak damage could be increased from 50% to 60%, while rank 4 damage evolution would be decreased from 40% to 30%.

As a result: you could have either 90% weapon damage bonus and 4s long Cloak or 60% weapon damage bonus and 10s long Cloak. Or something like that.

That... Is a great idea. MAKE A THREAD OF IT NOW.
But seriously, that's amazing. Post it in a thread.

[darkblade]

You know youre butthurt when you take time out of day to calculate all this crap just to make you argument stand on its on wobbly legs.