456 réponses à ce sujet

[a ViciousFerret]

Typhoniel wrote...

No. Infiltrators need no nerf.

Soldiers and the others could get some buffs maybe.

Mystical_Gaming wrote...

if tactical cloak gets nerfed I
will be sad. Why not just buff other classes? I like being a female
quarian infiltrator and being bale to revive teammates and do objectives
in hot spots. I don't like the idea of that being taken away.

Because nerfing just the infiltrator is easier and cheaper (those programmers and developers need to be paid you know) and won't lead to another hundred more "X needs balancing" threads. Also, if we buffed everything to the level of Infiltrators, I am sure I and a good portion of others would stop playing Mass Effect because things would simply have gotten too easy. The game is already repetitive as it is and making things easier doesn't solve anything.

The only argument for buffing everything else is when discussing weapons. Maybe the infiltrator wouldn't be such an OP class if rapid fire weapons (Assault Rifles, SMG's) were more usable on other classes. As it stands, even if you aren't using an Infiltrator, you are likely still using that Geth Plasma Shotgun, Claymore, Valient or Carnifex. (Thus, why bother using other classes when the infiltrator gives you a 120% (166% on Sniper Rifles) on those guns, alongside all the other perks.)


/Signed. TC needs to be balanced, and Infiltrators need to be taken down a couple of notches. I don't understand why there is such a large portion of the community upset by this, even if the Infiltrator is taken down several notches, it would still be one of the if not the most powerful classes.

Modifié par a ViciousFerret, 15 juin 2012 - 08:50 .

[AlienAtSystem]

BoomDynamite wrote...

That... Is a great idea. MAKE A THREAD OF IT NOW.
But seriously, that's amazing. Post it in a thread.

You do realize he posted it in a thread?

If you ask nicely, I might quote it in the opening post.

[.458]

The cloak is different depending on which race is using it. The way to play each race differs, and even within a race the spec differs. Cloak isn't the problem, but it does seem to keep people from seeing issues clearly.

[Mevanna]

BoomDynamite wrote...

Kronner wrote...

astheoceansblue wrote...
Only really matters if you get silly with your weapon choice, ie: two heavy weapons. 

infiltrators get to use any single weapon they want and, for the most part they fire as soon as they cloak so encumbrance is ignored. And even in those instances when they have to remain cloaked, there really is no single weapon in the game that cripples them with its CD, even at full duration.

The benefit far outweighs the cost.

Well, Adrenaline Rush is barely affected by encumberance too. My Claymore HS has Arush cooldown of 3.33seconds. That is pretty much Cloak-like. And I do even more damage thanks to instareload feature of Arush and 6.8 second long window of 70% extra weapon damage. 

IMHO reducing the base Cloak duration while significantly increasing rank 4 duration evolution forces Infiltrators to choose between damage and utility. To make it more balanced, the base Cloak damage could be increased from 50% to 60%, while rank 4 damage evolution would be decreased from 40% to 30%.

As a result: you could have either 90% weapon damage bonus and 4s long Cloak or 60% weapon damage bonus and 10s long Cloak. Or something like that.

That... Is a great idea. MAKE A THREAD OF IT NOW.
But seriously, that's amazing. Post it in a thread.

It is a great idea, but you'd still have to take into account all the multipliers that are what turns the 90% into like 300%. The SR damage bonus evolution on tier 6 at least should really have been additive, not a multiplier. It almost doubles your damage bonus (90% to 166%) 
Otherwise, even the 60% would still actually be a lot more than it looks.

But I really like it as a starting idea to work with.

(Also, out of curiosity... how did you test that on the shooting range? In my experience, the targets just don't have enough health to test SRs on them at all... always annoyed me.) 

[Dracoyoshi8]

 I'm not sure if the problem is with Tactical Cloak or if it's just the nature of the game. Because of how the store option and scoreboard work in multiplayer, there will always be strategies (FBWGG) and classes (in this case, Infiltrators) that will be used over others simply due to the fact players need credits to earn upgrades. This is because they have either a higher chance of success or take less time than other options. Higher success=more money/higher score=more upgrades/more self-esteem. If infiltrators are used more than other classes it's because they are generally more successful than other classes at earning money/getting a higher score. Granted, there are people who use the class because they enjoy how the class plays, but for a player who needs credits/is aiming for the highest possible score, the infiltrator provides is easiest route for success, just like how FBWGG provides virtually the quickest scenario for completing gold.

With that in mind, balancing Tactical Cloak would only make Infiltrators less powerful. If the problem is that you don't want a dominant playstyle, then balancing Tactical Cloak wouldn't be an effective solution. Let's say you have a glass of ice water. Removing an ice cube from a glass of water only results in another ice cube floating up to takes its place. Infiltrators would be the ice cube removed, while another class would be the replacing ice cube. Balacing Tactical Cloak didn't remove the fact that there is a dominant playstyle; it just made a different playstyle dominant. Before signing the petition, I think it important to decide what you want. Do you want Infiltrators to be less powerful in general, or do you want remove the presence of dominant playstyles from multiplayer? If the former, then balancing Tactical Cloak would be an effective solution. If the latter, then balancing Tactical Cloak would likely do little to change it. 

That's my two cents. I wasn't trying to take any side in the argument. 

Modifié par Dracoyoshi8, 15 juin 2012 - 09:52 .

[Poison_Berrie]

.458 wrote...

The cloak is different depending on which race is using it. The way to play each race differs, and even within a race the spec differs. Cloak isn't the problem, but it does seem to keep people from seeing issues clearly.

Not really. The cloak is different depending on whether they are sniping or not, mostly, and whether they also do melee damage.

[my Aim is True]

-1
I like my TC the way it is. Why Nerf in a co-op game?

[Dunsky5]

It sucks because your research is very neat and provides great evidence but.... Internet petitions hardly ever work. Im sure the devs are already looking into this as this has been the umpteenth friggin thread about cloak.

[.458]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

.458 wrote...

The cloak is different depending on which race is using it. The way to play each race differs, and even within a race the spec differs. Cloak isn't the problem, but it does seem to keep people from seeing issues clearly.

Not really. The cloak is different depending on whether they are sniping or not, mostly, and whether they also do melee damage.

At least this is progress...admitting that the cloak is not a "one size fits all"...that what it is and how it is used depends on the role and spec. So if this cloak is to be nerfed, the thread should only exist if the particular spec is named first. The whole nerfing of cloak for everyone and everything that has it is a ridiculous generality to argue.

[Malditor]

a ViciousFerret wrote...

Typhoniel wrote...

No. Infiltrators need no nerf.

Soldiers and the others could get some buffs maybe.

Mystical_Gaming wrote...

if tactical cloak gets nerfed I
will be sad. Why not just buff other classes? I like being a female
quarian infiltrator and being bale to revive teammates and do objectives
in hot spots. I don't like the idea of that being taken away.

Because nerfing just the infiltrator is easier and cheaper (those programmers and developers need to be paid you know) and won't lead to another hundred more "X needs balancing" threads. Also, if we buffed everything to the level of Infiltrators, I am sure I and a good portion of others would stop playing Mass Effect because things would simply have gotten too easy. The game is already repetitive as it is and making things easier doesn't solve anything.

The only argument for buffing everything else is when discussing weapons. Maybe the infiltrator wouldn't be such an OP class if rapid fire weapons (Assault Rifles, SMG's) were more usable on other classes. As it stands, even if you aren't using an Infiltrator, you are likely still using that Geth Plasma Shotgun, Claymore, Valient or Carnifex. (Thus, why bother using other classes when the infiltrator gives you a 120% (166% on Sniper Rifles) on those guns, alongside all the other perks.)


/Signed. TC needs to be balanced, and Infiltrators need to be taken down a couple of notches. I don't understand why there is such a large portion of the community upset by this, even if the Infiltrator is taken down several notches, it would still be one of the if not the most powerful classes.

Underlined and bolded part is false. There will always be threads about this or that being OP or needing balanced. Most likely it will be BEs or AR human soldiers next. The problem is people are taking extreme examples of how good these set ups are. You can't go by a speed run posted on youtube because that's the upper 1% *just throwing that out there, I'm sure that's not accurate* of players capable of doing that. However that's what people are afraid of, that anyone using that class setup will be able to play that well, when in reality it just doesn't happen. The reason TC flew into the spotlight is because it boosted the power of the krysae which takes no aiming to use and therefore can be spammed in the general direction of enemies and still get kills. This actually boosted the ability of basically every player with the weapon available to them which made the class itself look OP when it was just the combo of the TC bonus and the weapon AoE + proximity detonation.

[Poison_Berrie]

.458 wrote...

At least this is progress...admitting that the cloak is not a "one size fits all"...that what it is and how it is used depends on the role and spec. So if this cloak is to be nerfed, the thread should only exist if the particular spec is named first. The whole nerfing of cloak for everyone and everything that has it is a ridiculous generality to argue.

Well, rebalancing would effect everyone. 
The OP specified his changes and reasons as well, so I don't see what you are trying to say here. And overall it seems as everyone thinks they are a bit too much.

@Malditor: Threads about cloak being unbalanced have been around for quite some time, though they did explode with the Krysae. 

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 15 juin 2012 - 11:05 .

[.458]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

.458 wrote...

The cloak is different depending on which race is using it. The way to play each race differs, and even within a race the spec differs. Cloak isn't the problem, but it does seem to keep people from seeing issues clearly.

Not really. The cloak is different depending on whether they are sniping or not, mostly, and whether they also do melee damage.

So if it is just cloak we are discussing, then do all cloakable characters both snipe and do melee? Or do they just melee? Or just snipe? If we are coming to blanket conclusions about this, we need blanket descriptions to show everything is the same.

[Dharvy]

a ViciousFerret wrote...

Typhoniel wrote...

No. Infiltrators need no nerf.

Soldiers and the others could get some buffs maybe.

Mystical_Gaming wrote...

if tactical cloak gets nerfed I
will be sad. Why not just buff other classes? I like being a female
quarian infiltrator and being bale to revive teammates and do objectives
in hot spots. I don't like the idea of that being taken away.

Because nerfing just the infiltrator is easier and cheaper (those programmers and developers need to be paid you know) and won't lead to another hundred more "X needs balancing" threads. Also, if we buffed everything to the level of Infiltrators, I am sure I and a good portion of others would stop playing Mass Effect because things would simply have gotten too easy. The game is already repetitive as it is and making things easier doesn't solve anything.

The only argument for buffing everything else is when discussing weapons. Maybe the infiltrator wouldn't be such an OP class if rapid fire weapons (Assault Rifles, SMG's) were more usable on other classes. As it stands, even if you aren't using an Infiltrator, you are likely still using that Geth Plasma Shotgun, Claymore, Valient or Carnifex. (Thus, why bother using other classes when the infiltrator gives you a 120% (166% on Sniper Rifles) on those guns, alongside all the other perks.)


/Signed. TC needs to be balanced, and Infiltrators need to be taken down a couple of notches. I don't understand why there is such a large portion of the community upset by this, even if the Infiltrator is taken down several notches, it would still be one of the if not the most powerful classes.

Give one valid reason why? And not a whole list of random damage numbers but actual game play reasoning. What are they doing in game that justifies them needing "to be taken down a couple of notches?" Are they killing to effeciently and that needs to be nerf so they kill slower? Is it the scoreboard? Too many playing Infiltrators, (but remember they're needed for revives and the 1/2 chance you get a device/target objective so you're going to need at least one for that utility and add to the fact some complain that infiltrators don't do there jobs so maybe another one to back up the first one;))? How is TC hurting or making the game unfair, unbalance so much that it need to be taken down? What is it doing to your gameplay?

And "if the Infiltrator is taken down several notches, it would still be one of the if not the most powerful classes," what is your intended point to make them weaker? What is actually accomplished? They'll just take slightly longer to kill something? As if they're killing way to fast and is making Gold into bronze? Again I ask just for one gameplay breaking reason why you want/calling for the nerf, even a slight nerf? Is it strictly that you just don't feel comfortable looking at the damage percent numbers?

[Dharvy]

Mevanna wrote...

robarcool wrote...

Mevanna wrote...

robarcool wrote...

LULZferBAKON wrote...

Would it really kill people if tactical cloak had at best 50% damage bonus?
The only infiltrator I take out of farm runs is the Male Quarian Infiltrator with this build.

4/6/6/6/4 with Claymore III
I have max duration cloak, I always use it to revive, get past enemys, do objectives, etc. I can get 50% damage if I really need it.
My tactical scan allows me to reveal entire groups of enemys to myself and my team, and the cooldown is great even with the claymore.

Basically, I can hold my own versus enemys and support my team. All while using tactical cloak, as a proper cloak.

I will turn your argument on itself:
Would it really kill people if tactical cloak was left untouched?

The pro-nerf side of this argument has been pretty good about providing plenty of proof and numbers to show that it's too strong, spread over a very large number of threads.

The only argument I ever hear from the anti-nerf side is 'I like it the way it is' or 'It's supposed to be exorbitantly stronger than anything else.' interrupted by the occasional 'shut up, you're so stupid.' 

I think the burden of proof lies with you.

So have the people who don't want to nerf cloak given many counter arguments, but no one listens. Fact is that this is internet and one can keep giving counter arguments and it still won't go anywhere.

I'm not saying there aren't good arguments going on or that people are wrong in being against nerfing, but having spent a lot of time on this topic, I can say from experience that there are very few actual arguments aside from simply saying 'no, I don't want it'. Which is sad because 50% of the time this will be expressed in a provocative sort of way and turn whatever discussion has been going on
 into a flame war.  And here I keep bringing the thread back on topic to get some decent discussions with good arguments on both sides, but with very little success.

Honestly, he kind of have a point. I've read all the numbers and how Infiltrators do like twice the damage of nearly everyone else and all that, but in game its kind of a different story. I've played and play nearly every class. Playing an infiltrator is not an "I win" button, and the only time an infiltrator even remotely seems over powered is when a remarkably skilled player plays them and then when they play other classes they still do remarkably well. 

So the real question about balancing is what is TC doing to the game that it makes it out of balance play wise? Everyone keep quoting numbers and when the scoreboard accusation comes up all seem to deny it but no one seems to really address what is an Infiltrator doing to your gameplay that they need to be reigned in and balanced? Why are you and many others calling for them to we weaker? Do they kill to fast for you liking? Is an infiltrator in the group making a gold run guaranteed because they make it to easy for everyone? Are they OP so as to make the game broken? Or is it partly because so many have seen some speed runs done by the ME3 MP elite players playing GI that they now feel no one should be able to do that well?

My question is Why? and again Why? What is the underlining reason why people want the infiltrators signature skill, TC, do be nerfed, dumped down, for them to be officially weaker, even slightly? Why? The numbers are great, but if you didn't have the numbers and played with or played an Infiltrator would you still think they're OP? I'm talking about actual game play, not out of gaming situation numbers, but actual game play.

P.S. I play many PUG games and I see a variety of classes played and pre-krysae an infiltrator never ruined my gameplay for being OP or too good but only when they sucked. I understand the point about the Krysae's nerf but TC recommended nerfs from the drastic to the slight 10% damage decrease seems well, pointless.

[robarcool]

Dharvy wrote...

Mevanna wrote...

robarcool wrote...

Mevanna wrote...

robarcool wrote...

LULZferBAKON wrote...

Would it really kill people if tactical cloak had at best 50% damage bonus?
The only infiltrator I take out of farm runs is the Male Quarian Infiltrator with this build.

4/6/6/6/4 with Claymore III
I have max duration cloak, I always use it to revive, get past enemys, do objectives, etc. I can get 50% damage if I really need it.
My tactical scan allows me to reveal entire groups of enemys to myself and my team, and the cooldown is great even with the claymore.

Basically, I can hold my own versus enemys and support my team. All while using tactical cloak, as a proper cloak.

I will turn your argument on itself:
Would it really kill people if tactical cloak was left untouched?

The pro-nerf side of this argument has been pretty good about providing plenty of proof and numbers to show that it's too strong, spread over a very large number of threads.

The only argument I ever hear from the anti-nerf side is 'I like it the way it is' or 'It's supposed to be exorbitantly stronger than anything else.' interrupted by the occasional 'shut up, you're so stupid.' 

I think the burden of proof lies with you.

So have the people who don't want to nerf cloak given many counter arguments, but no one listens. Fact is that this is internet and one can keep giving counter arguments and it still won't go anywhere.

I'm not saying there aren't good arguments going on or that people are wrong in being against nerfing, but having spent a lot of time on this topic, I can say from experience that there are very few actual arguments aside from simply saying 'no, I don't want it'. Which is sad because 50% of the time this will be expressed in a provocative sort of way and turn whatever discussion has been going on
 into a flame war.  And here I keep bringing the thread back on topic to get some decent discussions with good arguments on both sides, but with very little success.

Honestly, he kind of have a point. I've read all the numbers and how Infiltrators do like twice the damage of nearly everyone else and all that, but in game its kind of a different story. I've played and play nearly every class. Playing an infiltrator is not an "I win" button, and the only time an infiltrator even remotely seems over powered is when a remarkably skilled player plays them and then when they play other classes they still do remarkably well. 

So the real question about balancing is what is TC doing to the game that it makes it out of balance play wise? Everyone keep quoting numbers and when the scoreboard accusation comes up all seem to deny it but no one seems to really address what is an Infiltrator doing to your gameplay that they need to be reigned in and balanced? Why are you and many others calling for them to we weaker? Do they kill to fast for you liking? Is an infiltrator in the group making a gold run guaranteed because they make it to easy for everyone? Are they OP so as to make the game broken? Or is it partly because so many have seen some speed runs done by the ME3 MP elite players playing GI that they now feel no one should be able to do that well?

My question is Why? and again Why? What is the underlining reason why people want the infiltrators signature skill, TC, do be nerfed, dumped down, for them to be officially weaker, even slightly? Why? The numbers are great, but if you didn't have the numbers and played with or played an Infiltrator would you still think they're OP? I'm talking about actual game play, not out of gaming situation numbers, but actual game play.

P.S. I play many PUG games and I see a variety of classes played and pre-krysae an infiltrator never ruined my gameplay for being OP or too good but only when they sucked. I understand the point about the Krysae's nerf but TC recommended nerfs from the drastic to the slight 10% damage decrease seems well, pointless.

This human understands. The thing is people against the nerf have given many counter arguments and actual gameplay nowhere is decided in full by these numbers that are presented for TC being OP. Fact is that Bioware has much more data than any refular forumite can fathom and they are doing balance changes every single week. I think they aren't doing eeney meeney miney mo when they are changing stats.

[Poison_Berrie]

.458 wrote...

So if it is just cloak we are discussing, then do all cloakable characters both snipe and do melee? Or do they just melee? Or just snipe? If we are coming to blanket conclusions about this, we need blanket descriptions to show everything is the same.

I'm not saying there aren't people purposefully doing odd man builds, but overall you see very little difference per build.
On Rank 4 damage is the obviously superior option. Many non-sniper builds can stop here (except maybe the HI shotgun build). Those who do continue to Rank 5 will take recharge speed unless they are a Geth melee build. If you carry a sniper you can't really pass up Rank 6 Sniper Damage, since it multiplicative and most powers can easily be worked into your cloak cycle (cryoblast being the exception). Bonus power depends on if you have cryoblast or if you have the points to spare.

Especially on Rank 4 and 6 there is a disperaty between the usefulness of evolutions.

[Mevanna]

Dharvy wrote...

Mevanna wrote...

 *snip* to avoid quote pyramid.

I'm not saying there aren't good arguments going on or that people are wrong in being against nerfing, but having spent a lot of time on this topic, I can say from experience that there are very few actual arguments aside from simply saying 'no, I don't want it'. Which is sad because 50% of the time this will be expressed in a provocative sort of way and turn whatever discussion has been going on
 into a flame war.  And here I keep bringing the thread back on topic to get some decent discussions with good arguments on both sides, but with very little success.

Honestly, he kind of have a point. I've read all the numbers and how Infiltrators do like twice the damage of nearly everyone else and all that, but in game its kind of a different story. I've played and play nearly every class. Playing an infiltrator is not an "I win" button, and the only time an infiltrator even remotely seems over powered is when a remarkably skilled player plays them and then when they play other classes they still do remarkably well. 

So the real question about balancing is what is TC doing to the game that it makes it out of balance play wise? Everyone keep quoting numbers and when the scoreboard accusation comes up all seem to deny it but no one seems to really address what is an Infiltrator doing to your gameplay that they need to be reigned in and balanced? Why are you and many others calling for them to we weaker? Do they kill to fast for you liking? Is an infiltrator in the group making a gold run guaranteed because they make it to easy for everyone? Are they OP so as to make the game broken? Or is it partly because so many have seen some speed runs done by the ME3 MP elite players playing GI that they now feel no one should be able to do that well?

My question is Why? and again Why? What is the underlining reason why people want the infiltrators signature skill, TC, do be nerfed, dumped down, for them to be officially weaker, even slightly? Why? The numbers are great, but if you didn't have the numbers and played with or played an Infiltrator would you still think they're OP? I'm talking about actual game play, not out of gaming situation numbers, but actual game play.

P.S. I play many PUG games and I see a variety of classes played and pre-krysae an infiltrator never ruined my gameplay for being OP or too good but only when they sucked. I understand the point about the Krysae's nerf but TC recommended nerfs from the drastic to the slight 10% damage decrease seems well, pointless.

Good point, let me see...

It's a bit difficult to tell if a particular class/weapon is affecting your gameplay, because while you're playing you're kind of paying more attention to what you're doing and where the enemies are. You'll occasionally think 'Hey, how did that boss just die so fast?', or 'Where were all the enemies this wave? I didn't get any.', but it's hard to pin down a reason for that unless you're actually watching your team members or keeping track of the kill list.

It was easier with the Krysae, because when an entire group of enemies you were attacking suddenly bursts into shreds, you can be pretty certain who to blame. But otherwise... hard to tell.

So yes, in the end, though we're not trying to make the argument 'Waah, I got outscored!', the truth is that the scoreboard will usually be the only thing telling you how well everyone else did, so it's the only way to figure out why you seem to have found extremely few enemies coming your way this round.

It's not perfect. Sometimes I'll think 'Huh, I didn't get anything at all', check the scoreboard and find that I did pretty well, but often it's 'Where were all the enemies?' - check - 'Oh, that guy got them all." 
And usually 'that guy' will be an infiltrator. Now, I can't tell whether this is because the class is too strong or because the player is just skilled, or maybe because the majority of Infiltrators are skilled and pick Infiltrator because they have enough experience to know the class is best. No idea.

So I do the maths instead, because trying to post how someone influenced my gameplay is very subjective and not an argument that will get me anywhere.

I can only list from personal experience the first time I played Infiltrator in MP, ages back. None of us were too good at it back then, and I shied away from a play style that only let me fire one shot every five seconds or so.
My brother told me 'Just try it, you'll get more points than you think.', so I tried. Topped the score board. And I'm not a particularly good sniper, I can't aim at all. Didn't use any abilities besides Cloak either, since I hardly knew the class. Still, topped the board. It struck me as odd back then, and it still seems kind of tell-tale now.

Modifié par Mevanna, 16 juin 2012 - 08:53 .

[Jebel Krong]

Just loving the fact that people just want to nerf anyone good at anything. I play sniping infils most - i also have the skill to get my specced-for head-shots and bonuses too. Yes: skill. That word everyone likes to forget and often comes with practice. I don't use the krysae and the only times i usually then get out-scored are by well played adepts/vanguard or the odd soldier or engineer. You can tell the good players that can do this because of their weapon choices and the positions they take on all the maps.

Most other people are complete tools and most seem to have zero situational awareness and then wonder why they don't do so well. Especially on gold but also silver. These people then come here and complain about imbalance when it's the player causing it, not anything else. Perhaps if some of these people spent more time practicing and speccing their builds properly they'd do better.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 16 juin 2012 - 09:42 .

[ParanoidDrone]

My only beef with Infiltrators, Tactical Cloak in particular, is how it lets you bypass the weight system so effectively. As long as you manage your cloak cycles properly, you'll never have to deal with a cooldown over 3-4 seconds, even if you have a Claymore and a Javelin strapped to your back. I get that it's supposed to be based on the amount of time you spend cloaked in the first place, but it's kind of silly how it trivializes what is supposed to be a balancing factor in weapons vs. powers.

What I want to see done is changing Tactical Cloak so that if you use a power to break cloak, you get hit with that power's cooldown. If you chose the Bonus Power evolution at Rank 6, you get the cooldown but don't break cloak, leaving you free to fire your weapon and trigger Tactical Cloak's cooldown and override the power's cooldown. Basically what everyone does now, except you'd have to pass up 140% sniper rifle damage to do so.

A nerf to the base cloak duration and a buff to the Rank 4 Duration evolution would also be nice so that some people would have a reason to skip the extra damage, but that's secondary.

[ka243]

buff other classes instead of nerfing infiltrators. Also, please stop asking for nerfs .

[Dharvy]

ParanoidDrone wrote...

My only beef with Infiltrators, Tactical Cloak in particular, is how it lets you bypass the weight system so effectively. As long as you manage your cloak cycles properly, you'll never have to deal with a cooldown over 3-4 seconds, even if you have a Claymore and a Javelin strapped to your back. I get that it's supposed to be based on the amount of time you spend cloaked in the first place, but it's kind of silly how it trivializes what is supposed to be a balancing factor in weapons vs. powers.

What I want to see done is changing Tactical Cloak so that if you use a power to break cloak, you get hit with that power's cooldown. If you chose the Bonus Power evolution at Rank 6, you get the cooldown but don't break cloak, leaving you free to fire your weapon and trigger Tactical Cloak's cooldown and override the power's cooldown. Basically what everyone does now, except you'd have to pass up 140% sniper rifle damage to do so.

A nerf to the base cloak duration and a buff to the Rank 4 Duration evolution would also be nice so that some people would have a reason to skip the extra damage, but that's secondary.

Why? What would it accomplish? Would the game become more fun, more enjoyable for you? Would it open up better options for you to try out? Why do you have a "beef with TC bypassing weight system effectively" as you put it when you know that its based on the amount of time you spend cloaked? And how is it trivializing the balancing factor in weapons vs. powers when you obviously know that infiltrators are made for sniping and sniper rifles are some of the heaviest weapons and that TC is most likely design that way so that it won't penalize infiltrators for using heavy sniper rifles and thus making TC cooldown scaled and based on the amount of time you spend cloaked.

I'm asking this because after reading this whole thread i've read many of people's "fixes" for TC and honestly some I don't care either way and others would simply be to big a change as it would ruin the class but no one's really giving any sensible reason why. So many saying its not fair or balance when fairness and balance implys that its being unfair to someone else and no ones is saying how its unfair to them. If its truly gamebreakingly unfair then by all means nerf it but no one is truly giving reasons for it being gamebreakingly unfair. And whether you or anyone else calling for nerfs in TC realize it or not it just comes off as jealousy and it then looks like some scoreboard issue where someone is upset that infiltrators can top scores boards easier that others.

I would rather you all start putting up petitions and such on ways to make other class more enjoyable. Like how smash have long animation and some was asking for some invincible frames, but BW, decreased the cooldown and now its spammable and that little buff made the class a little more enjoyable and how they buff shockwave so its reach is way better. I would like for them to allow skills usage while in the TS Marksman amongst other things. Why won't everyone rack there brains on ways to make all the other class a little better instead of trying to tear down TC.

[A Wild Snorlax]

This topic is an abomination really. The only person in here who makes sense and has a clue is Kronner, but somehow his replies gets ignored by the nerf crowd because he makes too much sense and you can't argue against what he is saying.

[AlienAtSystem]

Dharvy wrote...

Why do you have a "beef with TC bypassing weight system effectively" as you put it when you know that its based on the amount of time you spend cloaked? And how is it trivializing the balancing factor in weapons vs. powers when you obviously know that infiltrators are made for sniping and sniper rifles are some of the heaviest weapons and that TC is most likely design that way so that it won't penalize infiltrators for using heavy sniper rifles and thus making TC cooldown scaled and based on the amount of time you spend cloaked.

While it is true that the Cooldown is most likely designed to counter encumbrance, there would have been better and overall fairer ways to accomplish this without making the Infiltrator the odd one out who ignored weight. See Adrenaline Rush for example. As an Soldier is meant as Weapon beast, even more so than an Infiltrator, he is also burdened with a lot of weight, but by having a nice base capacity, as well as a low Cooldown on Adrenaline Rush, he can use his abilities often enough to keep up with others. Why should that not work in the same way for Infiltrators and the Cloak?
And why I want the Infiltrator nerfed? Because I cringe every time I throw an Arc Grenade and remember that as engineer, that thing would have done only half as much damage, and I would have been exposed. Because I always have to shake my head in disbelief when my sister curses because she forgot to activate TC before throwing a proximity mine. Because with the Krysae, the cloak is even less used for tactics and cloaking, just as spammable Damage Boost and Cooldown reduction.
And the argument "Call for buffs instead of Nerfs" is moot. It is easier to adjust one class downwards than to bring five up to the level, and then pull difficulty up to compensate. Sure, it's not all Black and White and the Slam and Shckwave buff was needed, but I don't see why we shouldn't make the overpowered classes weaker.

[ParanoidDrone]

Dharvy wrote...

Why? What would it accomplish? Would the game become more fun, more enjoyable for you? Would it open up better options for you to try out? Why do you have a "beef with TC bypassing weight system effectively" as you put it when you know that its based on the amount of time you spend cloaked? And how is it trivializing the balancing factor in weapons vs. powers when you obviously know that infiltrators are made for sniping and sniper rifles are some of the heaviest weapons and that TC is most likely design that way so that it won't penalize infiltrators for using heavy sniper rifles and thus making TC cooldown scaled and based on the amount of time you spend cloaked.

I'm asking this because after reading this whole thread i've read many of people's "fixes" for TC and honestly some I don't care either way and others would simply be to big a change as it would ruin the class but no one's really giving any sensible reason why. So many saying its not fair or balance when fairness and balance implys that its being unfair to someone else and no ones is saying how its unfair to them. If its truly gamebreakingly unfair then by all means nerf it but no one is truly giving reasons for it being gamebreakingly unfair. And whether you or anyone else calling for nerfs in TC realize it or not it just comes off as jealousy and it then looks like some scoreboard issue where someone is upset that infiltrators can top scores boards easier that others.

I would rather you all start putting up petitions and such on ways to make other class more enjoyable. Like how smash have long animation and some was asking for some invincible frames, but BW, decreased the cooldown and now its spammable and that little buff made the class a little more enjoyable and how they buff shockwave so its reach is way better. I would like for them to allow skills usage while in the TS Marksman amongst other things. Why won't everyone rack there brains on ways to make all the other class a little better instead of trying to tear down TC.

Perhaps I explained myself poorly.  I'm not suggesting that cloak get a flat cooldown that applies no matter how long you spend cloaked.  That's silly and I understand exactly why it works that way -- when it applies to sniper rifles and other heavy weapons.  But when it overrides a normal power's cooldown, to the point that you can spam powers just as fast as (if not faster than) caster classes depending on the caster's weapon choice, regardless of the Infiltrator's weapon choice, and in addition to the damage bonuses granted by cloak in the first place, and in a manner that allows you to still fire your weapon with the same damage bonuses at the same time, then I admit to having some issues.  And that's how cloak currently works.

(Proximity Mine has a 10 second recharge time on my Geth Infiltrator with a Javelin equipped.  I can fire one every 3 seconds as long as I cycle cloak properly.  I can't be the only person who finds this silly.)

Regarding the issue of why nerf cloak and not buff everything else, first there's the simple cost/benefit ratio:  It's far easier to nerf one power that's limited to one class than it is to buff literally everything else to match that one power.  (Except the powers already judged balanced, which would be a nightmare in and of itself, but I digress.)  There's also the separate issue of power creep, which I suspect is already starting to make an appearance with the DLC packs, most notably with the Kyrsae.

As for the question of why rail on cloak, I think the recent Kyrsae fiasco just dragged it into the open a bit harshly.