456 réponses à ce sujet

[Mevanna]

Princess Rolf wrote...

/NOT signed

You maybe, just maybe, should consider the three possible perks one char has, insted of just fokusing on one and basing all your "findings" on that..

As you may have seen in the OP, the calculations actually take ALL damage bonuses into account, not just TC. The reason this is a TC fix thread is that it constitutes the lion's share of that damage bonus by a very large margin.
In the case of GI, which I think is what you're referring to, even nerfing Hunter Mode and Proximity Mine into the ground would not affect the class in a huge way, but it would completely kill the GE.

Nerf a power that only affects classes that can afford to be nerfed. And that just is the Cloak, no matter how you look at it.

[NuclearTech76]

With great power comes great responsibility. Infiltrators are expected to cap objectives and play the squad medic which cuts into our time spent killing. We require the damage bonus to compensate for the time spent carrying the rest of the team.

Biotic explosions are also powerful as heck and can melt multiple enemies quickly. Are we supposed to nerf them also?

[VRtheTrooper]

stop using it... ...there....balanced. (trolling)

i'm sure BW gets that some people aren't happy with it. posting 20 threads a day won't change the rate that any adjustments will be made.

[Geek]

Not signed.

The gap between infiltrators and other classes is really not that big. In the right hands every class is viable on gold and can keep pace just fine with infiltrators.

[AlienAtSystem]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

With great power comes great responsibility. Infiltrators are expected to cap objectives and play the squad medic which cuts into our time spent killing. We require the damage bonus to compensate for the time spent carrying the rest of the team.

Biotic explosions are also powerful as heck and can melt multiple enemies quickly. Are we supposed to nerf them also?

While it is true that the Infiltrator looses DPS by supporting, most I see like to continue fragging instead of helping, at least in silver public games. On Gold, where they are more supportive, their damage isn't limited by their time spend supporting, but shieldgate. Making the Cloak less overkill while buffing its stealth capabilities would send a message that the Infiltrator is as much support as dps, in contrast to the soldier, who is supposed to be the Weapon DPS beast.

[Freaksh0w56]

 Who cares. We all play on a team. If someone tears it up with an infitrator because of there TC. Good. I want them on my team. Everyone plays the same game. Don't like it. Get better!!!

[Chealec]

Not read the responses (keeping an eye on pizza in oven) but your initial hypothesis fails to take into account the fact that Adrenaline rush, maxed out, can provide a damage buff for 6.8 seconds whereas Tactical Cloak is only ever 2 seconds - in theory AR should be stronger when used with sustained-fire weapons (assault rifles and smgs) whereas TC will be stronger with single-shot, high damage weapons (snipers and shotguns).

Taking the gating mechanic into account, the infiltrator tends to provide quite a bit of wasted damage, unless you're using a shotgun generally speaking, or debuffing the target first with proxy mine or energy drain (the delay with sabotage means that it'll not trigger before you've pumped a round into the target).

There are four ways you could tweak this though - you could:

a) reduce the damage from bonuses from Tactical Cloak
reduce the damage on sniper rifles and shotguns (the real TC weapons)
c) increase the damage on sustained-fire assault rifles
d) increase the buffs from adrenaline rush or marksmanship (which doesn't help Krogan)

Realistically, I'd lean towards a slight increase in assault rifle damage with maybe a slight reduction in TC damage.

[dnapayne]

I'm sorry...

Uh, No I'm not.

Every single idiot on the forums that say nerf (not in relation to enemies) are imbeciles. Nerf this class, this weapon, this power... Riddle me this: If your a soldier on the battlefield in RL do you tell your CO to nerf a grenade launcher because it's too powerful or to nerf a squadmate because he's too good at killing.

Something to think about.

Modifié par dnapayne, 13 juin 2012 - 06:57 .

[DiebytheSword]

If it is nerfed, then shield gating must be removed, or it makes only the most powerful sniper rifles of use, and the multishot ones, and practically the class, useless.

Any adjustment to the TC is going to be very minimal, and still won't cut as deep as the anti-infiltrators want.

[Ravenguild]

Why shouldnt they have the most damage they are assasination classes? The element of surprise granted by a shot from tact cloak SHOULD put you ahead of all classes with more constant damage output.

[Cyonan]

dnapayne wrote...

I'm sorry...

Uh, No I'm not.

Every single idiot on the forums that say nerf are imbeciles. Nerf this class, this weapon, this power... Riddle me this: If your a soldier on the battlefield in RL do you tell your CO to nerf a grenade launcher because it's to powerful or to nerf a squadmate because he's too good at killing.

Something to think about.

Let me ask you this then: When was the last time you saw a Quarian on the battlefield that could turn invisible?

Real life isn't video games, they don't mirror each other and they shouldn't mirror each other.

[Immortal Strife]

Shampoohorn wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

InfamousResult wrote...

OP posts facts. Hard numbers. Proof.

General response is "no don't do it it's FINE".

.. Oh. Well, that sure is a compelling argument.

Could you really be swayed the other way? I have not once in all the nerf threads seen you acknowledge a counter argument as a legitament point. Based on your post history I think it's fair to say your opinion lays in concrete, so why then ask for any "proof".


*btw I agree the infiltrator could use a small nerf.

Is there a counter argument based on numbers or real facts?  If so, please link to it or articulate it.  :innocent:

I'll quote myself, "btw I agree the infiltrator could use a small nerf" so there is no need to present a counter argument.

[dnapayne]

To Cyonan :

That is what camaflouge is for and face paint.

As for the nerf discussion - have fun.  If a class or a power is OP take advantage of it as much as possible!!!  Point of game is decimate enemies, make creds and win the extraction.

Modifié par dnapayne, 13 juin 2012 - 07:07 .

[SanguineRose]

I'm sorry, I don't play Infiltrator, and I just want to say this: Nerf the TC, and you hurt all of us. You have no idea how many times Infs have saved my life, either from TC reviving or with the very damage bonus you intend to remove.

[AlienAtSystem]

Chealec wrote...

Not read the responses (keeping an eye on pizza in oven) but your initial hypothesis fails to take into account the fact that Adrenaline rush, maxed out, can provide a damage buff for 6.8 seconds whereas Tactical Cloak is only ever 2 seconds - in theory AR should be stronger when used with sustained-fire weapons (assault rifles and smgs) whereas TC will be stronger with single-shot, high damage weapons (snipers and shotguns).

Thanks for a serious post. I miss them.

While Adrenaline Rush lasts longer, it also has longer cooldown, especially thanks to encumbrance. That results it being available for let's say 50% of the time, more if you pack less weight, thus weaker weapons, making your overall DPS not really going up.

Tactical Cloak however lasts for about 2 seconds, and in a perfect cloak-cycle is available every 3 seconds. That is 66% of the time, and 100% of the shots on most hard-hitting weapons.

I agree that Shield gating is a serious issue on Gold, but when it is adressed, the high damage multiplier of the Tactical Cloak will make them even stronger.

[dnapayne]

Ravenguild wrote...

Why shouldnt they have the most damage they are assasination classes? The element of surprise granted by a shot from tact cloak SHOULD put you ahead of all classes with more constant damage output.

Strongly agree!

[NuclearTech76]

AlienAtSystem wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

With great power comes great responsibility. Infiltrators are expected to cap objectives and play the squad medic which cuts into our time spent killing. We require the damage bonus to compensate for the time spent carrying the rest of the team.

Biotic explosions are also powerful as heck and can melt multiple enemies quickly. Are we supposed to nerf them also?

While it is true that the Infiltrator looses DPS by supporting, most I see like to continue fragging instead of helping, at least in silver public games. On Gold, where they are more supportive, their damage isn't limited by their time spend supporting, but shieldgate. Making the Cloak less overkill while buffing its stealth capabilities would send a message that the Infiltrator is as much support as dps, in contrast to the soldier, who is supposed to be the Weapon DPS beast.

I agree there needs to be change but it needs to go the opposite way. They need to buff certain classes. Some classes are meant to be support. Some are meant to do raw damage. Some are a mix of both. Nerfing TC would hurt everyone who plays with infiltrators.

[billy the squid]

AlienAtSystem wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

With great power comes great responsibility. Infiltrators are expected to cap objectives and play the squad medic which cuts into our time spent killing. We require the damage bonus to compensate for the time spent carrying the rest of the team.

Biotic explosions are also powerful as heck and can melt multiple enemies quickly. Are we supposed to nerf them also?

While it is true that the Infiltrator looses DPS by supporting, most I see like to continue fragging instead of helping, at least in silver public games. On Gold, where they are more supportive, their damage isn't limited by their time spend supporting, but shieldgate. Making the Cloak less overkill while buffing its stealth capabilities would send a message that the Infiltrator is as much support as dps, in contrast to the soldier, who is supposed to be the Weapon DPS beast.

Really? I spend more of my time killing hard targets, which will steamroll the team than I do supporting. I play as a sniper not to run around reviving people when they go down. I'll pick you up if I'm nearby, but if you decide to run off or die under a pile of pyros, hell no, I'm not coming to pick you up. Sorry I'd rather leave you, finish the objectives, kill the Prime/Brute which is currently closing on the hack zone, or clear the entrance to an area where they bottle neck to stop getting flanked.

A high burst DPS is going to be a necessity to do any of that. nerf it and Inf become the medics of the game. The combination of limited damage on a SR due to shield gate, is not going to do the class any favours. And many of your percentages work on the false premise that Tac cloak works on the basis of a sustained DPS like marksman. Try Marksman with a Turian soldier and Mrk X Revanent used properly vs a close or medium range shot from a single shot SR.
 
If I miss with that I'm in trouble. A Revanent with Mrksman will tear most things apart up close and at medium range. On silver if you use proximity mine you can kill Brutes and Ravagers in a few seconds. Nor do I have to worry about missing a shot, and therefore missing a huge chunk of my DPS.

Modifié par billy the squid, 13 juin 2012 - 07:18 .

[Chealec]

AlienAtSystem wrote...

Chealec wrote...

Not read the responses (keeping an eye on pizza in oven) but your initial hypothesis fails to take into account the fact that Adrenaline rush, maxed out, can provide a damage buff for 6.8 seconds whereas Tactical Cloak is only ever 2 seconds - in theory AR should be stronger when used with sustained-fire weapons (assault rifles and smgs) whereas TC will be stronger with single-shot, high damage weapons (snipers and shotguns).

Thanks for a serious post. I miss them.

While Adrenaline Rush lasts longer, it also has longer cooldown, especially thanks to encumbrance. That results it being available for let's say 50% of the time, more if you pack less weight, thus weaker weapons, making your overall DPS not really going up.

Tactical Cloak however lasts for about 2 seconds, and in a perfect cloak-cycle is available every 3 seconds. That is 66% of the time, and 100% of the shots on most hard-hitting weapons.

I agree that Shield gating is a serious issue on Gold, but when it is adressed, the high damage multiplier of the Tactical Cloak will make them even stronger.

In real terms you're unlikely to sustain a perfect cloak cycle for any huge duration though as, being an infiltrator, you've also got jobs to do with point capture missions and reviving teammates, whereas the primary role for a soldier is to kill stuff.

However, you could increase the encumberance allowance for soldiers so firepower has less of an effect on cooldown, especially Krogan (though that would only help for carnage but hey, I'd love it if Krogan sollies could spam that more frequently AND carry big guns)... or untie the TC 3-second reset from the cooldowns of other powers so that encumberance means a little more to infiltrators?

[Mevanna]

Chealec wrote...

AlienAtSystem wrote...

Chealec wrote...

Not read the responses (keeping an eye on pizza in oven) but your initial hypothesis fails to take into account the fact that Adrenaline rush, maxed out, can provide a damage buff for 6.8 seconds whereas Tactical Cloak is only ever 2 seconds - in theory AR should be stronger when used with sustained-fire weapons (assault rifles and smgs) whereas TC will be stronger with single-shot, high damage weapons (snipers and shotguns).

Thanks for a serious post. I miss them.

While Adrenaline Rush lasts longer, it also has longer cooldown, especially thanks to encumbrance. That results it being available for let's say 50% of the time, more if you pack less weight, thus weaker weapons, making your overall DPS not really going up.

Tactical Cloak however lasts for about 2 seconds, and in a perfect cloak-cycle is available every 3 seconds. That is 66% of the time, and 100% of the shots on most hard-hitting weapons.

I agree that Shield gating is a serious issue on Gold, but when it is adressed, the high damage multiplier of the Tactical Cloak will make them even stronger.

In real terms you're unlikely to sustain a perfect cloak cycle for any huge duration though as, being an infiltrator, you've also got jobs to do with point capture missions and reviving teammates, whereas the primary role for a soldier is to kill stuff.

However, you could increase the encumberance allowance for soldiers so firepower has less of an effect on cooldown, especially Krogan (though that would only help for carnage but hey, I'd love it if Krogan sollies could spam that more frequently AND carry big guns)... or untie the TC 3-second reset from the cooldowns of other powers so that encumberance means a little more to infiltrators?

The ideas are definitely good, the problem is that changes like that require actual coding, not just tweaking numbers, so I don't like our chances there... sad but true.

[ol MISAKA lo]

Oh you people with your ridiculous tunnel vision.

1) Nerf TC don't un-nerf HM = GI killer/objective ignorers or no INF at all

2) Nerf TC and un-nerf HM = GI Exclusive club complete with Krysae spam or not a single INF supporter in sight.

Castrating TC will not solve the problem, it will just pressure more selfish GI users into doing what they already do, and make the gamestate more oppressive than what you all make it out to be.

[Jernau11]

I still have not seen concrete reason to believe your figures. I've demonstrated biowares vaporware features and powers history (Dragon Age community patch), shown that it applies to me3 mp (ULM bug), and it's no secret that many of biowares descriptions are vaguely worded and ambiguous.

My point is that although I find your argument valid, I am not sure if it's sound. We have a bigger problem that needs to be addressed before we can even begin to tackle your suggestion, that of the questionable data bioware has given us to base it on.

Modifié par Jernau11, 13 juin 2012 - 07:28 .

[paincanbefun]

where are you getting your assumtion that "according to lore, soldiers and engineers should have the same damage output as infiltrators"?

i totally disagree with that.  soldiers have vastly superior survivability through health/shields and damage reduction and engineers have vastly superior crowd control abiliity through their drones.  in terms of functional utility, snipers should have higher single target damage output than casters and tanks.

nor is there any direct comparision between classes that happens in any of the games, so i'm not sure what "lore" you're talking about.

[heybigmoney]

I think your nerf suggestions go a little too far, but I do agree that tc needs to be balanced.