85 réponses à ce sujet

[Marko GW]

First of all, sorry for posting this in DA2 forum.

But I find that this is something that any Dragon Age fan must read and here it will get more attention than in the DA:O forums which are less visited. Although I posted there also.

I wholeheartedly agree with 99% that is written in defense on one of the
greatest (if not THE GREATEST) character in the Dragon Age world.

http://greywardens.c...c-tir-on-trial/

[thats1evildude]

Not convincing. Never spared him, never will.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 juin 2012 - 04:42 .

[Dave of Canada]

Loghain needs not trial, he'll punch the Orlesian judges and escape away on his horse in the rain.

[LolaLei]

I spared him once to see how it played out with him instead of Alistair (and for the achievement lol), it was interesting but I felt really bad about screwing over Ali so I never done it again.

LOL how lame am I!

[Chaos Lord Malek]

I always betrayed Alistair. He just sucks. Loghain is awesome - best general, nice looking armor and best voice actor that ever lived.

Only once did i not betrayed Alistair, when i wanted to be Queen of Ferelden.

[batlin]

Loghain was guilty of high treason and is directly responsible for the death of almost an entire army.

Sorry, but the fact that he's a war hero and has paranoid motivations doesn't change that.

[Karlone123]

I already liked Loghain from the start, didn't need to read the books on his backstory to like him (but I did read them and they are enjoyable reading pieces).

What Loghain did would have been commited by a complete monster who feels no remorse, but Loghain does feel remorse. It's one of those situations where you become the thing your people will despise in order for you to to save them.
Had Orlais try to invade Ferelden once again then Loghain would be more the right.

It would have been a interesting plotline if Loghain was on trial (he sort of was on trial at the Landsmeet) and you either try to condemn him or side with him. 

Loghain to me is one of the most unique characters in DA.

[TonberryFeye]

On my first ever playthrough I despised Loghain so much I was going to cut his head off myself... but something happened right at the end that caused me to question my motives. I spared him, and I lost my closest friend for that.

For me, Loghain is not a character I particularly like. I see him as an idiot, obsessed with his own racist paranoia and almost beyond redemption. However, he has the single greatest line in all of Dragon Age...

"Daughters never grow up, Anora. They remain six years old with pig tails and skinned knees forever."

That line humanises Loghain in a way I never anticipated.

In my 'canon' playthrough, Vaahn Cousland took great pleasure in butchering Howe, and had even taken the time to decide just what to do to Loghain after he died (head on a spike, outside the gates of Denerim). Yet in his final speech...

I like to think that just before he died, Loghain met the Warden's eye, and the Hero of Ferelden gave a simple nod; a sign that Loghain Mac Tir had done his duty, as he saw it, and that he could go to his end with honour.

Perhaps, then, the Hero will see to it that history remembers the man less callously than King Alistair may desire.

[TEWR]

TonberryFeye wrote...

racist paranoia

Considering what the man lived through -- Orlesians selling Elves like cattle, abusing Fereldans for their own desires, raping women, butchering both people and Mabari, and many other things -- his paranoia is justified.

And I'm not sure I'd say he's racist against the Orlesians. I'd say that he doesn't trust the nation's nobility at all, because of what they did to Ferelden 30 years prior.

I'm not sure what his opinions are on Isolde, but he does hate how the Orlesians look down on Fereldans at best -- calling them one step away from savage barbarism -- and at worst would again commit the atrocities I listed. His past experiences have made him not like the country one bit.

He isn't an immediate fan of Leliana though, but that's due to some of the comments she apparently says about Ferelden. He doesn't hate her, but he doesn't really like her (leastwise, not immediately).

He is not without his reasons for why he fears and distrusts Orlais. It's not as simple as "God damn painted fops should go to hell".

And it's not just him. Much of Ferelden shares his opinion about Orlais, even if they recognized that Orlais wasn't the immediate threat.

I recommend reading the Stolen Throne, playing Awakening (there's a bit about the Orlesian Occupation in there), and reading some of the codexes in DAO to really and truly understand the man that is Loghain Mac Tir.

He really is a complex man, and that's what makes him great.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Loghain needs not trial, he'll punch the Orlesian judges and escape away on his horse in the rain.

THIS.

And he'll be brought to trial because he punched out a few Orlesian Chevaliers, flipped over a table, and rode a horse in the rain to return to Ferelden and defend them from an Orlesian invasion.

And then what Dave said will happen.

He likes punching Orlesians and riding horses in the midnight rain.

Or the horses and midnight rain like him.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 juin 2012 - 07:59 .

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Considering what the man lived through -- Orlesians selling Elves like cattle, abusing Fereldans for their own desires, raping women, butchering both people and Mabari, and many other things -- his paranoia is justified.

Funny, considering how many of those crimes were committed by Loghain and his allies.

[Plaintiff]

Megafail. I've seen this argument before, ad nauseum. It wasn't cogent the first million times, it's not cogent now.

Loghain's motives, even if they were decent, do not excuse his tyranny and all-around incompetence.

Also, whoever wrote this clearly has no idea how a trial actually works. The only reason for determining motive is to try and prove that the individual in question had a motive, and thus might have committed the crime. Having a sympathetic motive does not mean you can be pardoned.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 17 juin 2012 - 01:11 .

[UpDownLeftRight]

Nice read.

[Giggles_Manically]

My "canon" file did not spare Loghain since he was a city elf.

But I tend to listen to Riordian and not Alistair since...well I never listen to Alistair actually.
Also prepare for hundreds of people to rain fire on this thread about anyone saying mean things about poor Alistair.

[Darc_Requiem]

I always kill Loghain. Given what he lived through, for him to commit some of the very same crimes is even more inexcusable.

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Considering what the man lived through -- Orlesians selling Elves like cattle, abusing Fereldans for their own desires, raping women, butchering both people and Mabari, and many other things -- his paranoia is justified.

Funny, considering how many of those crimes were committed by Loghain and his allies.

True, he sold Elves into slavery. And while I can neither excuse nor agree with it, I can justify why he himself did it.

Orlais sold Elves like cattle for the lulz. He did it because he was on the verge of bankruptcy when facing a civil war -- that he neither wanted nor started, though he didn't approach the nobles in the best way either.

That mitigates the crime slightly, though it doesn't detract from how monstrous an act it was. Indeed, he acknowledges that it was one of his many mistakes if spared. Not outrightly so, but he does say he's made many mistakes and that's got to be one of them. I don't think he ever enjoyed doing it nor felt that it was acceptable. Just necessary, in his mind.

Orlais, as I said, merely sold Elves for the lulz.

Much of the other things were not committed by Loghain himself -- and I'm willing to bet, without his knowledge on them until he's told about them. The rest were committed by sycophants like Howe. He would often commit many acts in secret that were depraved, to say the least.

[DarkDragon777]

Loghain is misunderstood. I actually agree with him wholeheartedly and always spare him. He was a great character.

[wsandista]

Loghain might have gone about the completely wrong way, but his ideas were justified. The Orlesians will strike against Ferelden again.

I killed him in 4/6 playthroughs though.

[Plaintiff]

wsandista wrote...

Loghain might have gone about the completely wrong way, but his ideas were justified. The Orlesians will strike against Ferelden again.

Says who?

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Loghain might have gone about the completely wrong way, but his ideas were justified. The Orlesians will strike against Ferelden again.

Says who?

Says Alistair, who tells us that Celene is fighting back against many nobles hoping to reclaim their "lost province".

Says Asunder, with Grand Duke Gaspard plotting to overthrow Empress Celene I, who is as I said supporting Ferelden's independence.

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Loghain might have gone about the completely wrong way, but his ideas were justified. The Orlesians will strike against Ferelden again.

Says who?

Says Alistair, who tells us that Celene is fighting back against many nobles hoping to reclaim their "lost province".

Says Asunder, with Grand Duke Gaspard plotting to overthrow Empress Celene I, who is as I said supporting Ferelden's independence.

So some Orlesians want to invade Ferelden. That's not really the same thing.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

So some Orlesians want to invade Ferelden. That's not really the same thing.

Of course not. However, the Grand Duke has launched a civil war to overthrow Empress Celene. If he succeeds, no doubt he would launch a bloody war against Ferelden with all of Orlais backing him, willing or not.

It sets up a dangerous possibility.

I'd argue that King Alistair goes to Kirkwall with the intent of getting the entire Free Marches on his side, due to how they might be next -- considering some of them were under Orlesian influence in the past. Indeed, that did seem to be Alistair's mindset then.

And Nevarra would also be a great asset to ensuring Ferelden is ready.

However, politically it wasn't fully fleshed out to the point of truly showing how Alistair and Bann Teagan are doing such a thing.

But I still think that's what Bioware wanted to convey, along with having a cameo there.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2012 - 03:13 .

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

So some Orlesians want to invade Ferelden. That's not really the same thing.

Of course not. However, the Grand Duke has launched a civil war to overthrow Empress Celene. If he succeeds, no doubt he would launch a bloody war against Ferelden with all of Orlais backing him.

It sets up a dangerous possibility.

Well, sure, it just seems like a stretch to say that Loghain's paranoia was justified purely on those grounds.

Really, the more I see and hear about him, the more I am convinced that he was completely unfit for a leadership position of any kind. I only feel further vindicated in my choice to execute him (or rather, have Alistair duel him, which amounts to the same thing).

[TEWR]

*removed to place it on the 2nd page, so it's seen

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2012 - 03:29 .