85 réponses à ce sujet

[Issala]

Plaintiff wrote...

Really, the more I see and hear about him, the more I am convinced that he was completely unfit for a leadership position of any kind.

I feel the same way about Alistair.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Well, sure, it just seems like a stretch to say that Loghain's paranoia was justified purely on those grounds.

If it was just that, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But look at Orlais' history, where they are known to offer their assistance to nations that fight the Blight and then never leave. They take the weakened territory as their own. It happened to Nevarra and parts -- if not all -- of the Free Marches. Nevarra and the Free Marches had to fight Orlais and kick them out by force to gain their independence.

Sure Celene's not a bad person, but Loghain didn't know that. He only had history to go off of, and history seemed to indicate it'd happen to Ferelden again.

Incidentally, this is what I've believed is related to the Fall of the Dales. I believe that the Elves did help with the Blight they were accused of not taking part in  -- the Keepers are apparently able to sense its presence somewhat -- and I doubt that they would seriously say "You humans fight your own Blight" since the Blight in question was happening in Orlais, in the southern expanses of the kingdom.

And maybe they were weakened by the Blight, and that's partially why they wanted to keep to themselves afterwards. Also, the fact that the Chantry was trying to convert them. And then **** went down -- details of which I will not bother to speculate on again.

Hell, who knows. Maybe Grand Duke Gaspard was riding with those chevaliers Celene was sending over, but Celene didn't know what Grand Duke Gaspard was really like. If so, then based on Asunder it seems possible that the Grand Duke may have tried to take Ferelden over again.

Anyway, Orlais' history isn't pretty, and it lends itself well to Loghain's suspicions and paranoia. Loghain was basing his paranoia off of Orlais' history and what happens in Act 3 of DAII and Asunder only shows that his suspicions were not unfounded. They were, very much, accurate.

Alistair even says that Ferelden is not at its strongest now. Orlais probably knows this. And the half of Orlais that wants to reconquer Ferelden -- if not more then that -- is probably arguing that this is when they should now strike.

When Ferelden is weak due to the Blight.

Really, the more I see and hear about him, the more I am convinced that he was completely unfit for a leadership position of any kind. I only feel further vindicated in my choice to execute him (or rather, have Alistair duel him, which amounts to the same thing).

Oh he's certainly a horrible politician. As a general, while the game would have us believe he's great it fails to properly show this -- and that really just stems from a severe lack of warfare knowledge on Bioware's part.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2012 - 03:46 .

[Jerrybnsn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd argue that King Alistair goes to Kirkwall with the intent of getting the entire Free Marches on his side, due to how they might be next -- considering some of them were under Orlesian influence in the past. Indeed, that did seem to be Alistair's mindset then.

And Nevarra would also be a great asset to ensuring Ferelden is ready.

However, politically it wasn't fully fleshed out to the point of truly showing how Alistair and Bann Teagan are doing such a thing.

But I still think that's what Bioware wanted to convey, along with having a cameo there.

So exactly how do you think that worked out?  The Knight Templar commander (crazy-demon-possed Knight Templar commander) was in charge of Kirwall and she wasn't nice to King Alistair.  The King does ask for support from Hawk, who as Champion, might one day become the next Viscount, but then that falls apart as Anders throws Kirwall into chaos and Hawk ends up fleeing faster than he did from Fereldan during the Blight.

[TEWR]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

So exactly how do you think that worked out?  The Knight Templar commander (crazy-demon-possed Knight Templar commander) was in charge of Kirwall and she wasn't nice to King Alistair.  The King does ask for support from Hawk, who as Champion, might one day become the next Viscount, but then that falls apart as Anders throws Kirwall into chaos and Hawk ends up fleeing faster than he did from Fereldan during the Blight.

Oh it definitely didn't go as planned. First, Alistair couldn't get the audience he preferred with the Champion. Second, Meredith outright refuses to assist him -- and based on the dialogue, it does seem to be what was being discussed prior to Hawke's arrival.

Third, it all runs on two factors: Does Hawke support the Templars? And does Hawke kill Anders so as to cement Starkhaven's support to Kirkwall, who could then be supportive of Ferelden?

If you're pro-mage and let Anders live, then Alistair is out of luck.

But if you're pro-Templar and kill Anders, Alistair has the potential aid of two city-states -- though Hawke is still forced to leave Kirkwall anyway.

Still, that did seem to be Alistair's mindset. Couple that with how Ferelden is sheltering apostates -- of which Kirkwall let loose a plethora -- and he's trying to build up his nation's defenses.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2012 - 10:13 .

[Reznore57]

I guess to understand Loghain , you have to read the Stolen Throne.
I have a lot of sympathy for him since i read the book ,but from my warden point of view , he's just a bad man that deserves his death.
Now the guy had his mother raped and killed in front of him because of Orlesians , i think his dog was killed too.His father died defending Marric , and Loghain lost his adoptive familly all over again.
He sacrificed the love of his life for his country ...so I can understand he hates Orlesians and would do anything to keep them away from Ferelden.
He didn't like the Grey Wardens neither , the first that came to Ferelden to regain some popularity for the order were Orlesians , they dragged Marric on some crazy adventure ,and a crazy orlesians mage tried to strike and kill the king during these events.
Besides the husband of his daughter wanted to dump her for some Orlesian queen...
The guy can be paranoid.

[Neleothesze]

 It was an interesting read.. (not many new facts but it was nice to have them laid down in the article)

Still... from my Warden's point of view he had signed his death warrant when he called for a retreat. Sending assassins after the Warden, lying about his involvement, etc , those were just dressing. It's nice to show all these pieces of evidence and say "he had good reasons for what he did" but you have to be a genuinly godly soul to forgive attempted murder.

He could have been Mother Theresa for all of his life or a martyr... I don't take kindly to being left for dead. The only way he could have survived my playthrough is if he'd have been a kid (0 - 12y). 

Since he isn't and his actions did ammount to several counts of attempted murder he has to be held accountable. My sword through his gut (metaphorically) made us even. My brother iirc let him live in his every playthrough. Ah well.

Modifié par Indolence, 18 juin 2012 - 01:11 .

[TEWR]

Indolence wrote...

Still... from my Warden's point of view he had signed his death warrant when he called for a retreat

You were in the Tower though and Darkspawn were pressing in through an entrance to the lower chambers. He couldn't have saved you even if he tried. It's not that he left you to die and the Darkspawn just magically moved up there. It's that they were right behind you.

Literally 2 minutes after the beacon is lit Darkspawn emerge from the stairwell and attack you.

Which isn't to say that he couldn't have taken steps to keep the Tower safe before the battle, but I blame Bioware for that more then Loghain due to them having (next to) no knowledge of warfare.

Flemeth did rescue you, but she has the powers of shapeshifting, omniscience (or something damn close), and... well... Flemeth-hood.

And his retreat was necessary. The Darkspawn were pouring out of the Wilds with no end in sight and had he charged his plan -- the Hammer&Anvil strategy -- would've failed miserably. The entire army at Ostagar would've been lost.

His actions afterwards towards the Wardens were wrong and stupid, but not entirely without his reasons for them. Though those reasons for those actions ultimately stem back to Ostagar and are due to the fault of both the Wardens and the army.

He put out a "Wanted: Dead or preferably DEAD" for a few reasons:

1) He believed they would weaken what remained of the army further due to both Ostagar's failure and the recent civil war by moving against him, thus weakening Ferelden's chances of standing against the Blight.
2) He didn't know just why the Wardens were necessary to defeat the Blights. Details on that point, I mean.

#2 is the fault of both the Wardens at Ostagar and the army itself. The former for failing to inform Cailan and Loghain on why they are needed during Blights -- aside from vague comments like "We just are." -- and the latter for failing to press the issue when much of what Duncan had done was to validate whether or not it was a Blight.

Faerunner wrote...

And yet he sells his people into slavery. Not just any people, but elves. Glad to know that all Fereldan citizens deserve freedom and independence, but some citizens deserve more freedom and independence than others.

As I said his crime is neither acceptable nor is it one he himself viewed as being. But he did view it as necessary. Necessary doesn't equal acceptable. His retreat from Ostagar was necessary, but he never viewed it as morally acceptable. 

I think he knew just how morally reprehensible selling Elves into slavery was, to say the least. And I'm almost positive it stemmed from Howe's mind originally, and Loghain eventually capitulated.

Even Anora wonders just how much of what Loghain did was originally the work of Arl Howe, who isn't really a nice person -- again, to say the least.

Loghain may have dealt with Caladrius, but I doubt it was Loghain's idea in the first place. He doesn't look down on Elves -- telling Dalish Elves they're skilled bowmen, having recruited Elves into his rebel army.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2012 - 07:00 .

[TEWR]

Faerunner wrote...
And as I said in the paragraph before that, Loghain commits all the attrocities that he does (abandons the king's army to die, allows the darkspawn to surge from the south, tries to bully the nobility into submission, etc etc) to make sure that Orlais cannot take advantage of Fereldan again. His entire schtick is that everything he does is to assure Fereldan's independence, and yet he sells Fereldan citizens into slavery. If everything Loghain does rests on the excuse that he's trying to maintain the independence he fought for Fereldan's citizens, then his excuse crumbled the minute he started selling Fereldan citizens into slavery.

Faerunner wrote...

Even when the country is on the brink of bankrupsy and civil war, Loghain would rather sell his own citizens into slavery than allow what he considers "foreign aid."

It's basically due to how horrible a politician he is. He approached the nobility in the worst possible way. That led to a civil war, which in turn led to the nation's coffers being depleted to the point of bankruptcy. And then in order to continue the civil war, he felt he had to sell Elves into slavery in order to get coin to fund the war. If he had surrendered, at best he'd be imprisoned.

At worst, he'd face the hangman's noose with his head being displayed outside of Amaranthine.

He didn't abandon Cailan lightly -- if he had, he would've long since left prior to the beacon being lit -- and had he better approached the nobility about what happened, no civil war would've happened. As such, the Elves wouldn't have been sold into slavery.

Yes what he did was an atrocity. I won't deny that. He doesn't deny that. He even acknowledges that he'll live with that regret for the rest of his life.

But I don't think that alone is grounds to call for his execution, unless you're playing an Elven Warden. And even then, it's not just about needing the money to help keep Ferelden afloat. It's that he felt the Alienage wouldn't have survived the Blight anyway, should Denerim be assaulted by the Darkspawn.

Which isn't an entirely unreasonable thing to believe. The Alienage has had... what, two riots and subsequent purges? Such that it tore the Veil in an orphanage, corpses were left in their homes still rotting away, and with damage done to the structural integrity of the Alienage's buildings -- as crappy as they were, the purges undoubtedly did damage to the homes.

Faerunner wrote...

Accepting Orlaisian aid (Wardens and Chevaliers) was Cailans' idea, and Loghain had him killed to make sure it couldn't happen.

He didn't kill Cailan to make sure it wouldn't/couldn't happen. He never wanted Cailan dead. He only wanted Cailan to realize that his youthful and blind idealism shouldn't have been his focus. That he needed to grow up and see that the world isn't so simple, nor are battles like those "in the tales". But Cailan wouldn't grow up, and Loghain was forced to make a painful decision.

Remember, Loghain has known Cailan since he was a little child.

History can attest that Orlais has always sent aid to nations that are fighting the Blight under the pretense that they care, but truthfully they used that as an excuse to expand their empire. After the nation was weakened by the Blight the Orlesian troops would never leave. This happened to Nevarra and the Free Marches.

Loghain understood that. He wanted Cailan to understand that history didn't lend itself well to the idea that the Orlesians would just respect Ferelden's independence and leave afterwards, especially since Ferelden would be taking the full force of the Blight and thus be weakened.

And he even tries to dissuade Cailan from fighting on the front lines. And Cailan's response is that it's "final", implying that it's a discussion they've had before. Cailan was too fascinated with heroic tales and glory, but he wouldn't listen to Loghain who was trying to get his King to be cautious.

Hell, Cailan couldn't even wait less then a week for his uncle's forces to join them, saying that the only reason Eamon's coming to Ostagar is because "he just wants in on the glory".

Additionally, the battle was unwinnable using Loghain's strategy. He and many other people had assumed the Darkspawn they would fight would be big enough for the Hammer&Anvil strategy to work, effectively boxing in the group so as to be facing a two-pronged attack.

No one anticipated that it would stem all the way back into the farthest reaches of the forest, with no end in sight.





For the sake of argument, let's say there were 100,000 soldiers there (you can see a great deal of soldiers when Loghain is retreating). We know there were only 7 mages and a handful of Templars, plus roughly two dozen Wardens. And 3 recruits.

The Darkspawn far outnumbered the army at Ostagar. I'd say there were at least 1,000,000 Darkspawn soldiers, maybe 3000 Emissaries, 100-200 Ogres, and who knows how many ghouls.

But I'd estimate that there were more Darkspawn then that, based on the above image.

Plus, for all we know there might've been a broodmother somewhere in the Korcari Wilds, churning out more and more. After all, the Chasind Barbarians battled the Darkspawn there first, since it was their home turf. Additionally, Stalata Negat: The Dwarves' Unknown Burden says that in 9:13 Dragon the Fifth Blight had begun. Or at least, was showing signs of its dawning.

So for all we know a Broodmother was in the Korcari Wilds for a long time.

Additionally, David Gaider has said that Loghain never went there with the purpose of abandoning Cailan. DG has said that while he prepared for that eventuality -- due to their disagreements and the promise he made to Maric -- he didn't want to go through with it and only decided to do so upon seeing the strength of the horde, how late the signal was, and how fractured the King's forces now were.

Compounded onto that is the fact that Cailan broke the battle plan and charged out into the open, when the plan was originally to have the Darkspawn boxed in.





Had he charged, this is what would've happened:



And all of the army at Ostagar would've been killed, Cailan and Loghain included. And what would that serve? While Loghain could have been said to have at least tried to save his king, it would potentially doom Ferelden -- especially with Arl Howe believing it's just a raid and making constant grabs for power.

The army would be lost, Ferelden's defenses would be without their symbol of independence/hard work/leadership (Loghain) which would cause morale to drop considerably, and the Darkspawn would still press northward unchecked.

At best, Alistair and the Warden -- and Dog, if a HN -- would still be alive due to Flemeth. But I highly doubt that the nation would believe what they say when they were the only two people to get out of there alive. It'd probably result in the same things happening to them, by Arl Howe's hand (considering it was he that orchestrated the assassination attempt and the poster idea to kill Warden sympathizers). And Arl Howe cannot be reasoned with, unlike Loghain.

So no, he didn't kill Cailan because of Orlais. He left Cailan to die because there really was no way to save him. And he didn't want to do it, even if he thought Cailan was a fool.

Which goes back to what I stated earlier. What was necessary to Loghain does not always equate itself to being morally acceptable. He even states in banter with Wynne that he knows exactly what he lost that day, having known the names of everyone that died there.

And that's one of the things that makes him a great character for me. He is willing to bear the name "traitor", "kingslayer", and anything else for what he's done so long as he knows Ferelden is safe.

He'll sleep peacefully at night knowing that his countrymen retain the freedom to call him what he may or may not be.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2012 - 10:48 .

[KDD-0063]

Loghain's motives at Ostegar are still questionable, given that he poisoned Eamon before that. However, it is what he did after Ostegar that is unacceptable. He made it personal, so I'll make it personal, too.

[TEWR]

KDD-0063 wrote...

Loghain's motives at Ostegar are still questionable, given that he poisoned Eamon before that

Impossible. In the Mage Origin -- as well as the others IIRC -- you find out that Loghain is at Ostagar and has been there the whole time.

Then you find out, from Jowan, that when he was caught he was brought to Denerim where he met the Teyrn face to face. The Teyrn then told him to go to Redcliffe to poison Eamon.

It had to have happened after Ostagar, because Loghain cannot be in two places at once.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2012 - 10:38 .

[Emzamination]

It doesn't phase me in the least what his life or motives were in the beginning, all I see before me is a traitor who nearly got me killed.I could've probably forgiven him and spared him if his betrayal hadn't put MY life in danger but it did and when you turn your back on me, you get hunted down and you die, no ifs,ands or buts about that.Loghain,morrigan,anders and bethany (maker forgive me) all learned this lesson.

[Wulfram]

Since we've trashed the Alienage and murdered lots of elves, let's sell the rest into slavery! For their own good!

He was so impressed by the Darkspawn strength at Ostagar that his priority was... to secure the border with Orlais.

[KDD-0063]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

Loghain's motives at Ostegar are still questionable, given that he poisoned Eamon before that

Impossible. In the Mage Origin -- as well as the others IIRC -- you find out that Loghain is at Ostagar and has been there the whole time.

Then you find out, from Jowan, that when he was caught he was brought to Denerim where he met the Teyrn face to face. The Teyrn then told him to go to Redcliffe to poison Eamon.

It had to have happened after Ostagar, because Loghain cannot be in two places at once.

The knight at Lothering said clearly that Eamon fell ill before the events of Ostegar.
Yeah I know it's cheap because apparently Jowan travels way too fast and warden travels a little too slowly.

[TEWR]

KDD-0063 wrote...

The knight at Lothering said clearly that Eamon fell ill before the events of Ostegar.

I've rationalized it that Eamon was sick prior to being poisoned, and after Ostagar when Jowan was at Redcliffe to poison Eamon the poison was able to take hold a lot faster due to Eamon's immune system being weaker.

It's not canon, but it makes a helluva lot more sense to me then Bioware's jumbled timeline of events for it having happened.

[Dave of Canada]

Wulfram wrote...

He was so impressed by the Darkspawn strength at Ostagar that his priority was... to secure the border with Orlais.

Secure the borders, fund his war effort and try to unite Ferelden under him while dealing with a civil war (which he was winning) and the darkspawn while trying to force the dwarves to co-operate and free the mages to have them all at his disposal (rather than whatever the Chantry would hand him).

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 juin 2012 - 02:48 .

[maxernst]

I think you're numbers sre wildly unrealistic. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to provide food for an army of 100,000? They sure can't forage for food around Ostagar. That's a gigantic army by medieval standards--I doubt England ever fielded that many men in one place until the 18th century.. Even the Romans with all the logistical support behind them, rarely put armies that big into the field. Feredlen is a small country, and several of its key nobles weren't even there (Eamon, Howe). I'd be surprised if they were able to muster 10,000 under the circumstances. I don't think numbers can be accurately estimated from screenshots. And while we don't have precise population estimates for Ferelden according to the Dragon Age RPG, it's biggest cities are Denerim with a population of 70,000, Highever with 20,000 and Gwaren with 10,000. That doesn't sound to me like the numbers for the kind of country capable of fielding an army of 100,000, or to have any hope of surviving an invasion by an army nearly twice the size of Napoleon's Grand Armee.

And Dave of Canada is right--if the numbers of Darkspawn were that great, how could he hope to hold them off while diverting half his forces to the Orlesian borders? For that matter, how on earth could he conclude that a million darkspawn pouring into the country was merely a raid, rather than a true blight?

[maxernst]

What really drives me up the wall about the decision to sell the elves is that he could have made much more use of them. Why not conscript them into the army or put them to world building better fortifications for Denerim? IWhen you factor in that the slaves are being purchased months away from their final market, I can't imagine you're going to get that great a price for them. Zevran was sold for three sovereigns and that was at market and "a good price" according to him.

And by the way, if Loghain knew the name of every man who died there, that strongly implies a much smaller army.

[TEWR]

maxernst wrote...

I think you're numbers sre wildly unrealistic. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to provide food for an army of 100,000?

I'd think they would have supply caravans coming to and fro'. Additionally, aren't they on the edge of the Bannorn which are known to be farmland?

But I'm basing my numbers -- which I'm not claiming are accurate -- on this screenshot:



Where if you look in the very far back of the background when this scene plays out, you can make out hundreds and hundreds of soldiers all moving in the same direction. And it goes on and on and on....

At any rate, it was purely as an illustrative example. Again I never claimed I was accurate in that guess, but I can feel confident in saying that the Darkspawn horde was more then likely somewhere near 1 million during the Battle of Ostagar due to the torches screenshot above.

Am I correct? I dunno. But it certainly seems like that's the correct number for the horde, if the area in the back is incredibly expansive.

And then who knows how many more were resting in the Deep Roads themselves, or how many broodmothers were in Ferelden itself.

maxernst wrote...
And Dave of Canada is right--if the numbers of Darkspawn were that great, how could he hope to hold them off while diverting half his forces to the Orlesian borders? For that matter, how on earth could he conclude that a million darkspawn pouring into the country was merely a raid, rather than a true blight?

No Archdemon leads people to think some pretty stupid things. People thought Darkspawn were gone from the world simply because a lot of them were killed in the last Blight, yet didn't bother to check their facts with the Dwarves who have suffered the most.

Additionally, I never said that in the previous battles the Darkspawn numbered in the millions. Merely in the one we take part in.

Loghain was never able to see the entire horde, also. David Gaider said as much IIRC. But he was able to see that there were far more there then he could handle.

Not Blight level numerous, but definitely enough that his plan wouldn't have worked -- not that Cailan's brilliant "CHARGE!!" move helped the plan at all.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juin 2012 - 02:06 .

[Spicen]

Impossible. In the Mage Origin -- as well as the others IIRC -- you find out that Loghain is at Ostagar and has been there the whole time.

Then you find out, from Jowan, that when he was caught he was brought to Denerim where he met the Teyrn face to face. The Teyrn then told him to go to Redcliffe to poison Eamon.

It had to have happened after Ostagar, because Loghain cannot be in two places at once.[/quote]

Seriously mate you have GOT TO STOP defending that bastard.

Seriously, Loghain did give the orders to poison Eamon, He DID start the civil war not the oter way around. He DID WANT Cailan dead becoz Cailan wanted Orlesian help and in the process destroyed the whole army of Cailan. HE DID GIVE the orders to sell the elves as slaves. Add the fact that he TOOK advantage of his power and fame. He DID GIVE the orders for the asassinations of the Warden. So he is nothing but a sod of a bastard traitor.

Kill him, Kill him , I say kill the SOB Lowgain

[Lotion Soronarr]

I can kinda-sorta understand Loghain. I even feel sorry for him.
But he was a blind fool that almost doomed his coutnry and betrayed people who trusted him.

Death was a just punishment.
Personally I would have preffered to have an option to send him to fight in the front lines, in the thickest battle. To die fighting and redeem imself at least a little. But making him a GW? Never.

EDIT:

Also, the darkspawn numbers are redicolous. millions? Seriously?
Ostagar was supposed to be a very defensible position, meaning you can take a more numerous army.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 19 juin 2012 - 01:35 .

[Plaintiff]

Semhaine wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Really, the more I see and hear about him, the more I am convinced that he was completely unfit for a leadership position of any kind.

I feel the same way about Alistair.

I'd rather have an untested newbie over a proven failure.

Loghain had his chance and blew it. He can't be trusted with a cup of coffee, let alone a country. Alistair's consistently proven himself to me for roughly a year of traipsing through the wilderness with our lives in constant danger.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 19 juin 2012 - 01:33 .