85 réponses à ce sujet

[Wrathion]

Loghain stans, Loghain stans everywhere.

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 19 juin 2012 - 02:02 .

[TEWR]

Seriously mate you have GOT TO STOP defending that bastard.

Seriously, Loghain did give the orders to poison Eamon, He DID start the civil war not the oter way around. He DID WANT Cailan dead becoz Cailan wanted Orlesian help and in the process destroyed the whole army of Cailan. HE DID GIVE the orders to sell the elves as slaves. Add the fact that he TOOK advantage of his power and fame. He DID GIVE the orders for the asassinations of the Warden. So he is nothing but a sod of a bastard traitor.

I NEVER denied that he poisoned Eamon.

I denied that the poisoning happened prior to Ostagar, because the timeline of events is inconsistent.

NOT the same thing.

And no, he didn't kill Cailan because of Orlais. I've already gone over this.

As for the Elves and the assassination, I've already said that maybe Howe came up with that idea, because many NPCs wonder just how many of Loghain's plans originally stemmed from Howe's head. I never said it did happen. Merely that it's a likely possibility, given that Howe is the one who suggested Anora be killed -- which Loghain refused, but Howe didn't care.

Again, not the same thing.

And the assassination? Replay the game. It's originally Howe who proposes the idea. Yes Loghain authorized it and he is responsible for that. But he didn't come up with the idea.

But hey, you can get a new companion based on that assassination attempt! That's turning a bad situation into a good one.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

True, he sold Elves into slavery. And while I can neither excuse nor agree with it, I can justify why he himself did it.

Orlais sold Elves like cattle for the lulz. He did it because he was on the verge of bankruptcy when facing a civil war -- that he neither wanted nor started, though he didn't approach the nobles in the best way either.

What? Of course he started it. He abandoned the field to let his king and most of Ferelden's army to die and then sent a dangerous criminal mage to poison his greatest political rival.

[Dave of Canada]

Cailan was stupid, Loghain abandoned him. Eamon was to be temporarily removed from the political scene so Loghain can have an easier time gaining control of Ferelden, which fails when Teagan causes the Bannorn to rebel.

The civil war is fought despite the Bannorn being vastly outnumbered by Loghain loyalists, causing much of the Bannorn itself to be destroyed by the Darkspawn as they're too preoccupied trying to fight Loghain.

Meanwhile, Loghain is trying to gather every resource available in Ferelden (dwarves, mages, ect) while maintaining the border as Chevaliers are camped right beside it, sending warning signals into Loghain's spider senses.

All the while, he's being played by Howe (who's mostly interested in himself, rather than the nation) which causes him to commit more atrocities than he usually would have as Howe proves himself a resourceful--but manipulative--ally.

Not only this, you've got those who wish to see his daughter (and him, as regent) dethroned because they're both of common blood, which is practically what Eamon wants so he can control Alistair on the throne.

The Blight hadn't done much to Ferelden despite the events of Origins occurring over a year, meaning Loghain did well for himself within one year with enemies on all sides and the only outside resources coming from Amaranthine (under Howe's control) or Tevinter (the slave trade).

Loghain managed much and held his ground, he always had the best intentions at heart and he's far from incompetent. He's a man of history, seeing the past and trying to avoid it being repeated--no matter what.

I'd consider Eamon to be far more worthy of hatred.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 juin 2012 - 07:48 .

[TEWR]

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

You make it sound like he's an innocent little victim in that department. "Oh, it's not that he made terrible decisions that he could have reversed at any time but chose not to. He actually made GOOD decisions, but OTHER PEOPLE didn't read him right so he was forced to sell the elves against his will because there was no other choice in the matter and he could not have taken any other course of action at any given time. He could not have made different choices, chosen different actions, accepted help from other people when it was offered, taken advice from trusted allies (like Anora), stepped down when he saw that the nobles (rightfully) hated him for his previous actions and were not willing to unite under him, given the reigns to his daughter so they could unite under her banner and face the darkspawn together instead of choosing to stay in power and waste all his time and resources trying to force them to heel in a civil war that he eventually needed coin from elven blood to pay for--no! He made all the right calls all around and the one involving slavery was just an unfortunate side effect."

Yeah right.
[/quote]

No.

I said the selling of Elves was horrible. I said I didn't support it. I said that Loghain thought it was necessary in order to fund his war effort -- of which the Darkspawn is just as much a war effort as the civil war is FYI, even if he wasn't fighting it at that time.

Was it really necessary? No, I don't think so. There were probably alternative ways to raise money for Ferelden. Maybe. I dunno.

But he thought it was. And he gave a position for his actions that isn't unreasonable, when you examine the Alienage's history. It's still wrong, but it's not like he was just pulling some lame-ass excuse out of his ass that didn't make any sense whatsoever.

I said he approached the nobility in the worst possible way. That prompted the civil war to happen. That is Loghain's fault. Had he better approached the nobility, the civil war wouldn't have happened.

That said, not all of what he said was horrible. He wanted Ferelden to unite with him and defeat the Darkspawn without hesitation.

We must defeat this Darkspawn incursion, but we must do so sensibly and without hesitation.

Then he started to go into horrible speech mode.

Your lordship, if I might speak? You claim that we are to fight under your banner, but what of the army lost at Ostagar? Your withdrawal was most.... fortuitous. -- Teagan

*Something Something Something Dark Side* I will brook no threat to this nation, from you.... or anyone!

Which while he may have intended it to not mean he'll kill anyone who gets in his way, that's sure how it came out.

By that time however, I don't think he could've reversed that. Because surrender would equal death or imprisonment. I seriously doubt that those people who believed he was a traitor to the throne after the Landsmeet would just let him be free, let alone still live.






[quote]And my heart bleeds for him. I'm sure the elves from the Denerim Alienage over in Tevinter feel sorry for him too.[/quote]

I have to wonder: Caladrius says that he always had a time limit on how long he could operate before Loghain came after him. I wonder if Loghain had planned to arrest, imprison, and torture Caladrius on knowledge of the Elves' whereabouts that were sold, so he could -- after the Blight was ended -- rescue them in some form.

While I highly doubt he actually was going to do such a thing, it would make what he did less evil and more political backstabbing if that turned out to be the case. In that he got the necessary funds for his war effort and Ferelden but also valued the Elves' freedom to be just as important as the rest of Ferelden's freedom, even if he needed to sacrifice their freedom for a tiny amount of time.

Like I said though, I highly doubt he was going to do that, but Caladrius' comments made me think that.







[quote]So only fellow elves should feel outraged for elves being sold into slavery? No wonder their conditions never improve.[/quote]

Strawman






[quote]Neither would the humans, yet I don't see him accepting help from Orlaisians or Grey Wardens now to deal with darkspawn now and then find a way to subvert potential threats from them later on when they're safe from the darkspawn. Fancy that![/quote]

The rest of Denerim didn't suffer through riots and purges that destroyed much of the buildings in the area.



[quote]
And anyway, they would not have been in danger had he not allowed the darkspawn to surge from the south unchecked for several months. Loghain does not believe that the darkspawn are a true enough threat to nip them in the bud early on, he did not think they were a great enough threat to choose to deal with them first and politics after, he did not think they were a great enough threat to step down from the regency when the nobles declared civil war so that they could unite under someone else's banner and deal without him, and yet they WERE a great enough threat to justify selling elves into slavery. Fancy that![/quote]

He didn't know why the Wardens thought it was a Blight, other then "We just know. We can feel it. Trust us". Again, this goes back to Ostagar being both the fault of the Wardens and the army itself.

The Wardens should've told Cailan and Loghain just how they know it's a Blight. The army should've pressed them for information on just how, if the Wardens weren't forthcoming.

"You see King Cailan, we drink Darkspawn blood in a ritualized way that allows us to hear the Darkspawn and sense them. During a Blight, we have dreams of the Archdemon and we can hear it speaking to the horde."

Telling the heads of state would carry with it the possibility of them being believed. Refusing to tell them is banking a lot on that they'll readily believe them. At the very least, Duncan could've lied and said he saw the Archdemon in the Deep Roads when he went to Orzammar -- seeing as how the Wardens will do anything to end a Blight, a little lie shouldn't be a big deal.

That said, what Duncan did prior to arriving at Ostagar should've also sent off some warning bells for the army to press the issue.

Duncan went to Orzammar to do two things: Find recruits and seek out information on the Blight's validity. Knowing that he went there for that purpose, the army should've believed that he was in fact telling the truth. If not, they should've pressed him on just how he knew (again, he could've lied).

Again, it's both sides' fault why the Darkspawn threat wasn't taken seriously. Lack of information on how the Wardens knew caused Loghain to believe that it was just a raid, and when it became evident that it wasn't he was too far into the civil war.

Still, I do question how anyone can not believe the Wardens -- experts on Darkspawn -- when they say it's a Blight. But, they apparently did. And they didn't press the issue on how the Wardens knew -- nor did the Wardens -- so it's both sides' fault why the threat wasn't taken seriously.


[quote]
(Possible subjugation for humans down the line? HORRIBLE! Definite slavery of elves today? Eh, sacrifices must be made.)[/quote]

Look at Orlais' history of conquering nations that were facing a Blight and were severely weakened by it and tell me his fear of Orlais wasn't justified -- albeit misguided in how he was handling such a possibility.

Anyway, he values the freedom of Fereldans. Not just humans. The Stolen Throne has him recruiting Elves for the purpose of them regaining their freedom from the people that sold them for the lulz.







[quote]And who started the riots? Who led the purges? (I'll give you a hint: The elves didn't purge themselves.)[/quote]

Riots: The Elves (rightfully so).

Purges: Arl Howe and Bann Vaughan. Then more Howe. Never Loghain. He may have tacitly let them go on because he wouldn't take action to stop them, but he never started the riots or led the purges. He's never even professed that he supported the purges.




[quote]
The short answer is that the squalid conditions and the "structural integrity of the Alienage's buildings" (Ha! That's a laugh!)[/quote]

Derp. I said the structural integrity of those crappy homes was damaged. Read again please.



[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... and with damage done to the structural integrity of the Alienage's buildings -- as crappy as they were, the purges undoubtedly did damage to the homes.[/quote]

I acknowledged that the Alienage is just a slum, but it's a slum that got even worse after the riots and purges.
 

[quote]
The City Elf Origin reveals that elves only riot when they've been pushed too far and their human overlords choose to turn a blind eye to their plight. The City Elf Origin reveals that the most recent riot started when the local nobles' sons crashed an elven wedding (one of their few joys in life), kidnapped and raped the women (or woman, if you're a city elf that manages to save the others), and those that tried to save them were murdered and arrested (Nelaros, Soris) whereas those that committed the crime got off Scott free.

Once Arl Howe is appointed the new Arl of Denerim, instead of addressing the concerns that caused the riots in the first place, he chooses to lead a several months long purge that slaughters who knows how many people inside for no other reason than to assert his own authority (he basically says as much if you confront him on the purge as a city elf), which is what finally tore the Veil. All under Loghain's watch.[/quote]

Arl Howe is a racist douchebag. Always has been, always will be. David Gaider has said that Loghain personally detested the man, but felt that Arl Howe's political mind -- not much of one there, if you ask me -- was necessary for Loghain.

But do you have a link to that Arl Howe dialogue you mentioned? I'd like to see that, because City Elf Origin is one that I've never played past Ostagar.


[quote]
I don't accept "well, the alienage was a crappy place to live" as an excuse because guess who made it a crappy place to live?[/quote]

I don't accept it as an excuse either. I just said that his reasons for the slavery were not unreasonable in nature. They were true, even if they don't justify or excuse his actions.



[quote]
Guess who chose to willingly ignore the cries and plights of the people living there? Guess who chose to continuously slaughter the elves to silence their riots instead of addressing concerns that caused the riots in the first place? And Guess who sat back and allowed the continuous slaughtering over several months that eventually culminated in the tearing of the Veil? In short, Loghain helped to make the alienage such a crappy place and then he used it as a justification to sell its denizens into slavery. Could his excuses be more BS?[/quote]


Give me undeniable proof where he says "I don't care about the Elves being killed by the purges. Not one bit. They can die if they want to riot". Do it now.



[quote]Th
Could he be any more of a martyr in your eyes?

I'll reluctantly concede on his motivation to leave Ostagar (though there's still some conflicting evidence that makes me question it)[/quote]

Like what?


[quote]
, but NOT the decisions he chose to continuously make for months afterward, including the choosing of rebuffing foreign aid of any kind[/quote]

More like just Orlesian aid, due to their history of pretending to care about nations being devastated by the Blight but then using that as a reason to conquer said nations.

DAII shows us through Lord Harimann sent soldiers from the Free Marches to help fight the Blight.

He's not against foreign aid of any sort.

Just Orlesian aid.


[quote]
, dealing with nobles before darkspawn[/quote]

The Bannorn started the civil war after he approached them in the worst possible way. He wanted the nobility to be united under him as he took the Darkspawn on.

He failed, due to what he said being very.... idiotic. Then a civil war happened.

If you honestly think he could've fought off the Darkspawn and the Bannorn at the same time, you're honestly a fool.


[quote]
and selling elves into slavery to pay for his conflict with the nobles instead of finding another way to fund his troops or deal with the civil war and the darkspawn in a different way.[/quote]

Do you even know how hard it is to fight a war on two sides? 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juin 2012 - 11:54 .

[TEWR]

Faerunner wrote...

It doesn't matter who came up with the idea, Loghain knew about them both and he allowed them both. There are two different kinds of evil: Actively committing evil like Howe, and passively standing by and allowing evil to happen like Loghain. Loghain was VERY GOOD at passively sitting back and allowing Howe to terrorize the nation without keeping him in check, and even greenlit some of his greater travesties. He is just as bad as Howe, if not worse because he knows better and he lets it happen anyway.

Dialogue with Anora tells us that Loghain thought himself above Howe's influence but Howe turned out to have manipulated Loghain into doing those things or allowing them to happen.

Or something like that. I can't quite recall that dialogue with Anora, but I'm fairly certain it was something along those lines.

Don't take my word for it though.

[AngryFrozenWater]

It is fun to have him in your party. Chatting with him is very revealing. He truly believes that he and, ultimately, Anora have done the right thing.

[TEWR]

Faerunner wrote...

So that makes it okay to committ all the travesties he knew were wrong but allowed to happen anyway?

Yet another strawman.

I didn't say it was okay. But you're apparently twisting what I'm saying to make it seem like I am. 

[Chipaway111]

I've killed around 7 times out of 10, and now I wish I hadn't because I actually grew to not like him, but almost respect him. The game paints him as a cold, power hungry, betrayer. Yet Riordan made a good point that Wardens recruit whoever they can. Where is the tactical value in killing Fereldan's greatest general?

To me it actually seemed Alistair was being a child when I refused to kill him, the Wardens use honour when it suits them, they also use blood magic, criminals, etc. It's all about stopping the Blight at the time, so Loghain it was.

Also really love his VO...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Logain was a cad.

I don't care if he wa influenced by Howe, it was still his fault for letting himself be influenced. He quit the field, and planned for it ahead. He is a delusional traitor who did the worst possible things (despite alternatives) because of his paranoia.

Make him a Grey Warden? Why?
He doens't deserve such honor. There's no shortage of willing recruits with the blight on the dorstep. And he can't be trusted, who knows when his paranoia will kick in again. He's too unpredictable and untrustworthy to be tasked with protecting my back.

[maxernst]

Chipaway111 wrote...

I've killed around 7 times out of 10, and now I wish I hadn't because I actually grew to not like him, but almost respect him. The game paints him as a cold, power hungry, betrayer. Yet Riordan made a good point that Wardens recruit whoever they can. Where is the tactical value in killing Fereldan's greatest general?
.

The tactical value lies in not allowing someone who has attempted to kill you multiple times any more opportunities.

[Zkyire]

batlin wrote...

Loghain was guilty of high treason and is directly responsible for the death of almost an entire army.

That decision basically saved Ferelden.

[maxernst]

Zkyire wrote...

batlin wrote...

Loghain was guilty of high treason and is directly responsible for the death of almost an entire army.

That decision basically saved Ferelden.

The only reason Ferelden is saved is because Cailan asked for the Grey Wardens to be the ones to light the beacon, and the PC is able to foil Loghain's every attempt to kill him.  Left to his own devices, Loghain destroys Ferelden completely.   The remainder of the army that Loghain takes to Denerim may not be critical.  After all, the only purpose of the army is to distract the Darkspawn while you go after the Archdemon.  It doesn't need to be a strong enough army to win the battle because the Darkspawn scatter when the Archdemon dies.  The Warden's allies including the Orlesian wardens, Howe (who didn't get to Ostagar), the Bannorn, reserves left in Denerim etc. might well have been enough.

Besides, it's only the opinion of Loghain and one guy at Ostagar that the battle was hopeless.  Flemeth certainly hints that Loghain's decision was driven by concerns other than strategy, and I trust her more than I trust him.

Even if the entire army is lost at Ostagar, the worst that could happen is that Ferelden ends up part of Orlais, because without Loghain's interference, the Orlesian wardens would have defeated the Archdemon, probably much sooner than the PC is able to.  Ferelden rose up and threw the Orlesians out once, they can doi it again. 

Modifié par maxernst, 21 juin 2012 - 12:47 .

[Plaintiff]

Zkyire wrote...

batlin wrote...

Loghain was guilty of high treason and is directly responsible for the death of almost an entire army.

That decision basically saved Ferelden.

It did nothing of the kind.

Cailan's decision to have Alistair and the Warden hang back from the main battle is what saved Ferelden.

Loghain let Darkspawn run rampant across the country in his petty quest to vindicate his personal paranoia.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 juin 2012 - 05:53 .

[Paul E Dangerously]

Loghain always reminded me a lot of Guy du Bas-Tyra from Raymond E. Feist's Riftwar books, though the similarity may be intentional.

Both are known as great generals who have a position of power due to their actions in their youth, and both sacrifice their honor in order to do what they perceive to be for the good of the nation, even when said acts are "evil". Both have subordinates that do some pretty shady things right under their noses, but do not punish them for it because they are useful tools.

I always wished Ostagar would be a branching point, because with info from the DLC thrown in (the hinting at a relationship between Calian and Celene of Orlais), being able to have the story turn out differently depending on your actions could have been interesting. Likely too much work to actually pull off, but interesting.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I kill Lowgain every time. Every time. I'm surprised that anyone would be willing to defend him or even make a Grey Warden out of him. When I found out it was an option I couldn't believe it.

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

batlin wrote...
Loghain was guilty of high treason and is directly responsible for the death of almost an entire army.

That decision basically saved Ferelden.

It did nothing of the kind.

Cailan's decision to have Alistair and the Warden hang back from the main battle is what saved Ferelden.

Which would have had a high chance of ****ing up if Loghain didn't retreat.

Unless of course you prefer Fereldan being armyless against the darkspawn threat and having the country's morale virtually non-existant.

JSlither wrote...
I kill Lowgain every time. Every time. I'm surprised that anyone would be willing to defend him or even make a Grey Warden out of him. When I found out it was an option I couldn't believe it.

Well that's pretty silly. Whether you support what he did or not it's better to put his skills to use rather then just toss him aside and handicap yourself.

For all you know you could've sacrificed him to the Archdemon and saved yourself the trouble.

[Treacherous J Slither]

GodWood wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

batlin wrote...
Loghain was guilty of high treason and is directly responsible for the death of almost an entire army.

That decision basically saved Ferelden.

It did nothing of the kind.

Cailan's decision to have Alistair and the Warden hang back from the main battle is what saved Ferelden.

Which would have had a high chance of ****ing up if Loghain didn't retreat.

Unless of course you prefer Fereldan being armyless against the darkspawn threat and having the country's morale virtually non-existant.

JSlither wrote...
I kill Lowgain every time. Every time. I'm surprised that anyone would be willing to defend him or even make a Grey Warden out of him. When I found out it was an option I couldn't believe it.

Well that's pretty silly. Whether you support what he did or not it's better to put his skills to use rather then just toss him aside and handicap yourself.

For all you know you could've sacrificed him to the Archdemon and saved yourself the trouble.

Skills?! The man thought a darkspawn invasion was a mere raid. When he realized there were too many for his entire freakin' army to fight he STILL thought it was a mere raid. He sold his own countryment into slavery. He left the king to die. A man he was sworn to follow. He instigated a civil war. He allied himself with that heartless snake Arl Howe and let him do as he pleased. The fool nearly destroyed the very country he supposedly would do anything to protect. Bad decision after bad decision and you speak of skills? That's a laugh.

No, Lowgain had to die. When I got my chance I took it.

[TEWR]

Faerunner wrote...

You keep saying "Loghain didn't come up with the idea" and "Howe manipulated Loghain" like it somehow mitigates his crimes.

I'm saying it's possible the idea stemmed from Howe because we know that Howe manipulated Loghain into doing many things.

I never once claimed it as fact. I said it was possible, based on what we know of Howe and how Howe acted.

And if Howe did come up with the idea, then yes it does mitigate his crimes. Even more so if Howe led Loghain to believe it was the only course available to garner funds.

Were there other ways to garner funds? I believe so, but I don't know this as a fact. Did Loghain know there were other ways? He doesn't say he ever knew, so I see no reason to believe that he did know.

If he was led to believe by Howe's words that selling the Elves was the only way to gain money to finance the war, then his crime is mitigated slightly. It's still reprehensible and atrocious, but it's not like he knew of any other ways.

Like I said before, he's a horrible politician.

 
Furthermore, you're the one who said you "don't think that [slavery] alone is grounds to call for his execution" which I partially agree with, in that it is not just the slavery so much that he willingly, knowingly drove the country into such state where he needed money, and chose to take the money instead of taking other courses of action that he knew were available to him but chose to ignore. 

There were no other courses of action. He never claims that there was an alternative means to raise money for Ferelden, so it's unknown if there really was another means.

Secondly, he didn't drive the country into ruin. Not entirely. This is what I'm trying to say:

1) He gave a speech towards the Bannorn. He ended up ****ing it up to the point where his message conveyed a different meaning
2) The Bannorn immediately split into pro-Loghain and anti-Loghain and a civil war ensued.

The anti-Loghain Bannorn struck the first blow as I understand it, based on Loghain's last line leading them to believe he abandoned Cailan at Ostagar for reasons other then strategical in nature.

Now if you mean he could've stepped down from the Regency, I'm not sure that's an action that should've been taken. Anora the Queen was fine with Loghain being the Regent of Ferelden, despite the fact that Loghain imposed himself to that position. I suspect that if she didn't want him there, she would've made it known prior to the Landsmeet that Eamon called for.

But she didn't. It isn't until after the Landsmeet after Ostagar that Anora begins to have doubts about Loghain, but by then it was too late for Loghain to step down successfully.

So the Bannorn shouldn't have tried to launch a civil war, because they were also going against the Queen's wishes at that time.

He could have prevented the civil war by stepping down from the Regency like the Bannorn wanted and allowed them to unite under someone else's banner to fight the darkspawn

Like who? Who would command enough respect over an army to fight the Darkspawn? At this time, not many people knew of Alistair's lineage. At this time, Eamon's respect and authority was limited. He had just enough to call a Landsmeet, but not enough for him to actually lead the armies. And Anora, despite being the Queen, is not fit to command an army. She studied government and diplomacy, rather then warfare and strategy.

Loghain was a general and a national hero. He was fit to command an army. And for that matter, so was the Warden, but that's after the Warden raises an army and takes down Loghain after Loghain's support begins to wane. The Warden earned that respect over the course of the game. During and immediately after Ostagar, Loghain was the only one who held the same level of respect.

Had he stepped down, sure the civil war might not have happened. Though given the split of the Bannorn that happened, who's to say that it wouldn't have still happened with people arguing that he should be back in the Regency? In fact, I feel confident in saying that the Bannorn would've continued the same squabbling and Loghain still might've been forced to try and quell the war.

And then the same actions Loghain made in-game may still have happened.

, but he choose to retain his position and try to force them into line instead of dealing with the darkspawn first.

Without unity, there was no way the Darkspawn could be defeated. You can't fight a war on two fronts. To say "He should've gone after the Darkspawn first instead of trying to unite the lands!" is naive.

He would've had to have split the forces under his command to contend with both wars, and then Ferelden would've been lost or damaged so severely that it couldn't possibly fight back against any other incursions.

And you're assuming he struck the first blow against the Bannorn. Given what we're told in-game, I'm led to believe it was the opposite. The Bannorn struck the first blow after the Landsmeet. 

He knew that the darkspawn were ravishing the country unchecked (thanks to his and other nobles' withdrawal from the south) and after several months of fighting, he could have ended the civil war at any time by resigning from the regency and allowing them to fight the darkspawn under someone else' banner

Again, who would lead them? Who commanded enough authority prior to the Landsmeet we take part in to command an entire nation's army?

And resigning from the regency and surrendering would equal one of two things: Death or imprisonment.

Both are serious morale killers when the man in question is a national hero. And morale means a lot when you're fighting a war.

. But he didn't. When he saw that the civil war that he helped to create and perpetuate was draining the country of money and resources, and supposedly could only be paid for by selling his people into slavery, he could have ended the civil war, called for foreign aid, something. But he didn't.

First: Foreign aid was accepted. In DAII, we find that Lord Harimann sent forces to Ferelden to fight the Blight. So Loghain did accept foreign aid. He just didn't want to accept Orlesian aid, because of their past history with nations weakened by the Blight.

Second: Civil wars aren't that easy to end, I think. I doubt that Loghain surrendering would've been accepted. The pro-Loghain faction might've continued the war and then what? The army would probably be even more devastated then it became in-game.
 

He decided that maintaining his position, his power, his authority, his direction, and his plan was more important than his own citizen's freedom. For that, he should be held responsible.

And no one's saying don't hold him responsible. But execution is not the only means of holding him responsible. You can allow him to atone for his mistakes. You can have him live the rest of his life with that guilt weighing down on him, which is just as much holding him responsible as execution.

Having that weigh on his conscience, knowing full well what monstrous acts he committed, is just as cruel -- if not more so -- then giving him a quick death by the sword. 

It may take him those 30 years or so of his life in the Wardens to actually make himself redeemed in the eyes of the masses -- if he doesn't commit the US -- but you should at least make use of his supposed tactical prowess*. And even if he's redeemed to the people, that doesn't mean he'll ever forgive himself for committing those acts in the first place.

Again, what Loghain feels is necessary doesn't always equate to morally acceptable.

*I say supposed because... well... Bioware sucks at warfare and we're informed of Loghain's ability, but we don't actually see it in-game other then a few no-brainers.

Furthermore, Blight would have wiped out humans just as well as elves if allowed to spread. The alienage is surrounded on all sides by sturdier Denerim buildings and stone walls. It doesn't matter that alienage buildings are weaker than other Denerim buildings; the darkspawn would still have had to infiltrate the city to get to the alienage, so the humans would have been killed along with the elves. Yet he did not make any decisions that compromised human freedom for the sake of fighting the darkspawn.

Well... I could play semantics and say that the option to confront him on it says "Fereldan citizens" and not "Fereldan Elves", so that opens up the possibility of humans having been sold as well -- though the Elves would've been the ones to suffer more.

But all that's talked about upon confronting him with it are the Elves, so yes... he didn't sell any humans.

Or if he did, it's never truly talked about in-game.

But while the Darkspawn would've killed humans as well as Elves, Loghain's intention was for the Darkspawn to never make it that far.

He wanted the Bannorn to be united under him and stop the Darkspawn before they progressed too far northward. But then the civil war happened and took its toll on the nation's coffers while the Darkspawn moved forward. He could not wage a war with two enemies at different points, so he had to first quell the civil war.

But once it became apparent that he lacked the funds needed to continue the wars, he had to sell the Elves into slavery. The Darkspawn by this point had moved pretty far forward and were now capable of reaching Denerim.

While yes the Elves would've died anyway, there wouldn't have been any funds to wage a war against the Darkspawn and the nation would be bankrupt. Even if the Elves died and he didn't do the slave-trading act, the nation would likely have fallen due to the treasury's lack of funds.

The thing I want to know is if there were indeed other methods of procuring funds for the nation.

But at any rate, I really just wanted to stop at "It's not known if humans truly did suffer the same fate, but it's unlikely". Again, I'm not justifying or excusing his actions towards the Alienage.

Merely trying to see it from his viewpoint and factoring in other variables that may have contributed to that course of action. It's abhorrent, atrocious, and monstrous.

But I don't execute him for it, because I'm thinking practically. Sure I'm outraged by many of the acts he's done, but I'm also looking at the bigger picture.

[GodWood]

JSlither wrote...
Skills?!

Yes, skills.

Loghain's a formidable fighter, a powerful icon of Fereldan sovereignty and as such an effective morale booster for the people of Fereldan. Also he's another body to throw into the jaw of the archdemon.

He's much more useful alive then dead.

Modifié par GodWood, 25 juin 2012 - 07:42 .

[TEWR]

[quote]Faerunner wrote...


And they didn't. Instead of just accepting this and moving on[/quote]

Oh for crying out loud....

You cannot honestly have expected him to have waged a war on two fronts and won. That's just idealistic nonsense. 



[quote]Faerunner wrote...
Speculation. It's never stated that they would have done so. Arl Howe approaches Loghain in his study and tells him flat out: "There are demands that you step down from the Regency. It looks like there will be civil war after all." By those words, he could have prevented the civil war and gotten them to face the darkspawn by merely stepping down from the Regency. He knew this; he chose not to act on this. I do not pity him. [/quote]


Just because they demanded he step down does not negate the possibility of death or imprisonment. Considering that many of the anti-Loghain Banns are led to believe he abandoned King Cailan, he'd more then likely be charged with high treason against the crown.

That's punishable by death.









[quote]That's hardly canon proof. [/quote]

First, I never claimed what I was thinking would've happened or was even stated in-game to be possible.

Second, Caladrius does comment that Loghain was going to come after Caladrius when Caladrius was no longer useful.

Truth be told there was always a limit on how long we were going to be able to operate here. We've paid for many of Loghain's troops but once the Landsmeet is finished we become.... inconvenient. -- Caladrius

So yes, I do think it would've been a nice spin on the whole slaver issue, had it been done or hinted at in-game.

I consider it a possibility, but I won't use it as evidence to support why Loghain should be spared.

[quote]
As I said, the rest of Denerim surrounds the Alienage on all sides and would have had to fall in order for the darkspawn to reach the alienage at all.[/quote]

And it does. Quite easily, where many of the buildings are destroyed or on fire.



[quote]

Darkspawn rarely come to the surface. The few times they do, they come in small numbers of disorganized bands of mindless vagrants that attack merchant caravans or other easy targets. Humans believed darkspawn were extinct for centuries because they went up so rarely. Then suddenly they start emerging from underground en mass, leading organized attacks that are serious enough for the king’s army to combat them from a fortified position, and difficult enough for them to need reinforcements or to use guerilla tactics, yet they don’t believe it’s Blight?[/quote]


Humans believed that the Darkspawn were gone out of sheer stupidity, never bothering to ask the Dwarves of Orzammar -- who are known to have fought the Darkspawn constantly -- if this was so.

And the lack of Dragons made them think that foolish nonsense about the Fifth Blight. And they didn't go to Ostagar because it was a serious threat, but because it was the most advantageous position to easily stop the Darkspawn.

At that time, the army just thought it was an unusual Darkspawn raid. The battles up to that point were easily won and no dragons were sighted in the Wilds.

I'm not saying they were justified in that belief. I personally hold the entire army as culpable for the majority of the fault that Ostagar belongs to, but that is why they were thinking it.

Like I said, both sides were at fault. The army more so in my opinion, but the Wardens do have some blame on their shoulders.

I'd say the army is 60% at fault, while the Wardens are only 40% at fault. Hell, I might even bump it up to 70/30.


[quote] 
Furthermore, the Grey Wardens are an ancient order of elite warriors that dedicate their entire lives to not only fighting darkspawn, but observing their behavior for any unusual activity that could indicate a greater problem; namely, a Blight. When brought to fight and observe at Ostagar, the Grey Wardens assure the army up and down that they feel very strongly that based on their knowledge of darkspawn, it is a Blight. Considering both the darkspawn’s unusually organized behavior and the darkspawn experts’ testimony, Cailan, Loghain and the army should have gotten a clue. [/quote]

I don't contest that. I've said before that common sense was lacking on their part -- maybe not in this thread, but definitely in others where Ostagar was a central topic or at least came up.

They should've pressed the issue if they were unsure. Both sides should've. That's why they're at fault.


[quote]
“Both sides were at fault”? If the Wardens needed to say “We’re connected to the darkspawn hive mind from drinking darkspawn blood and that's how we know it's a Blight” in order to get the army to believe them despite all the evidence already, then Cailan was literally too stupid to live. As was Loghain, in his own way.[/quote]

It's not even just that. No one outside of the Order knows why Wardens are needed to defeat the Blight. No one outside of the Order knows that an Archdemon has only ever been killed and can only ever be killed if a Warden strikes the final blow. At least, insofar as history has depicted the Blights. Morrigan found a loophole, and whether or not it was performed in the past is a matter of much speculation.

But if a non-Warden struck the final blow, the Archdemon wouldn't die.

So that's definitely the information the Wardens should've told Cailan and Loghain, but the reason why they know it's a Blight should also have been told. Additionally, Duncan doesn't tell his own recruits about why the Wardens are needed -- though he does say he'd explain it to them later. But you'd think since Alistair has been a dedicated Warden for 6 months, he'd know the specifics on why Wardens end the Blights aside from "We kill the Archdemon".

Because there's more to it then "Stab the Archdemon".

History may have painted them as the order dedicated to fighting the Darkspawn, but history has never said why they are experts against them. And so the army was left in the dark.

And it is both sides' fault. I personally hold the army as being more responsible then the Wardens, based partially on the very reasons you have stated -- reasons I've said in the past.

I've even wondered in the past if I should pity Fereldans or admire them, because of what the games show us about them.



[quote]
But he never tries to prevent the purges either, namely the one committed right under his nose by Arl Howe[/quote]

Well, remember, he was often out in the field leading his men against the Bannorn that was launching the civil war. It's possible that Howe took that opportunity to purge the Alienage, because Loghain wasn't there to say otherwise.

Again, it's possible. More so due to the fact that David Gaider himself said Howe did commit many acts when Loghain wasn't around, but by the time Loghain found out about them he was already too reliant on Howe's mind -- one I find to be useless politically. 

[quote]David Gaider wrote....

Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.[/quote]

And then it's not so much that Loghain tacitly allowed it but that it happened when he was nowhere near Denerim to prevent it in the first place.

[quote]
. The active evil and the passive evil are both evil, remember?[/quote]

Only to you, they are.






[quote]The latest of which was several months long and was committed right under Loghain's nose. [/quote]

Where's the proof that it happened under Loghain's nose? We have proof that he was out in the field leading his men against the Bannorn, but none that he was in Denerim when the purges were going on.

[quote]
He might not have actively instigated it, but he still allowed it to happen. He is just as responsible.[/quote]

Again, proof. Show me that he knew they were going on when they were going on, rather then that he knew they happened after the fact.



[quote]Arl Eamon and Teyrn Loghain: [Continue talking as if the Warden never spoke.[/quote]
 
Personally, I never liked how they just went on talking as if you didn't say anything. You'd think they'd at least talk about it a little bit before moving on to the other dialogue.

I've considered it a flaw of the conversation, rather then having anything to do with the characters themselves.





[quote]Give me undeniable proof that he actively tried to stop the slaughter and the slavery even when he knew it was happening.[/quote]

Give me the proof that he let it go on when it was going on, rather then having learned about it after the fact. 

[quote]
Considering that he green-lit the slavery, justified the slavery to himself with the damage done in the latest purge (that he did not prevent), and doesn't so much as bat an eye when the Warden brings up the purge right front of him, I somehow doubt he gives a feather or a fig.[/quote]

Eamon doesn't comment on the purge either. Does that mean Eamon doesn't care either?





[quote]Why was the Tower of Ishal overrun with darkspawn despite it being “secured” by Loghain’s men leading up to the battle?[/quote]

It wasn't "secured". It was, in the words of the guard, "being secured".

Which I still find to be laughably idiotic, because anyone with a brain can see that it needs to be collapsed so the Darkspawn can't use it.

But I blame Bioware for that, because they don't understand warfare in the slightest.






[quote]Were you not the one who said “[Loghain] only decided to do so [abandon the king’s army] upon seeing the strength of the horde, how late the signal was, and how fractured the King's forces now were.” If Loghain could see the battlefield just fine, then what the hell did he need the signal for?[/quote]
 
If I wasn't clear on this point enough, then my apologies. I may have left out important information given to us by the devs.

Loghain could see enough of the battlefield to understand the battle would fail even if he charged, but he didn't have a complete view of it. To that end, the beacon was necessary to signify when no more Darkspawn were pouring out of the Wilds

Remember that his forces had to stay hidden from the Darkspawn. So they were hiding somewhere behind the trees, which blocked some of their line of sight. Had they been out in the open, the Darkspawn would've seen them.

So Loghain must've had a limited view of the field, but enough to understand that the Darkspawn were still pouring out and the army was falling apart in the valley. But not enough to understand himself when the Darkspawn were all there.

That's originally what I wanted to convey, but I may have just cut it short due to typing out many walls of text -- it tends to strain the mind  -- and only typed out the bare minimum.

Here's some notes from the toolset itself on what Loghain says if you confront him about Cailan.

PC: "You were the one who fled the battle and left him to die!"
[Coerlic mocks the PC depending on origin/race]
Loghain: "You goaded him into making the charge! He believed the tales, Warden! He thought that your handful of men would turn the tide for him, strategy and consequences be hanged!

(Comments): Genuinely angry, and grieving just a little for his friend's son. He's rather believe that it was the Warden's fault that Cailan was an idiot than Cailan's fault.

(first PC's line must be about Howe)
PC: "What do you know about justice? You left Cailan to die!
Loghain: "Warden, Cailan was Maric's son. Had there been any chance of reaching him at Ostagar, I would have fought to my last breath to save him.

(Comments): He believes this. It's not true, exactly, but he believes it.

But since a lot of this information that pro-Loghain posters use -- myself included among them, obviously -- is given to us by the devs, it's hard to truly understand what Loghain was seeing himself, due largely to Bioware's lack of understanding regarding warfare.

Loghain's decision, per Word of God, was the one that needed to be done in that moment. But we don't really see it in-game, and at times it's hard to make a cohesive statement on just what Loghain saw due to the lack of visual imagery. on the matter.

But it was the right decision



[quote]
Why did he declare Grey Wardens traitors immediately after the battle? He knew that King Cailan was a fool and that other Wardens thought the plan to rush headlong into the front lines was foolish too (or at least Duncan, the freaking Grey Warden Commander in Fereldan), so why lie about them deliberately, maliciously leading Cailan to die out in battle?[/quote]

Historically, the Grey Wardens did at one point serve the interests of Orlais, extending their influence. By saying the Wardens led Cailan to his death, it's making it out to mean Orlais was plotting to undermine Ferelden's strength.

And this is supported by the idea that he may have believed the Wardens deliberately delayed the beacon, because he didn't know about the Darkspawn in the Tower.

Additionally....

[quote]
Why would he lie about the Wardens' treachery unless he needed a scapegoat? Why would he need a scapegoat unless he knew he did something wrong and needed to pass the blame onto someone else?[/quote]

What he did was right given the cirumstances, although he never saw it as morally acceptable.

How people would view what he did was why he needed the scapegoat.

I doubt people would've believed him had he told the truth, but I can't say. He could've said the battle was truly unwinnable because of the strength of the horde, but people might've narrow-mindedly focused on the fact that Cailan died after Loghain retreated rather then the reasons why he retreated.

But given how he didn't know the Tower was overrun by Darkspawn -- due to Bioware's severe lack of knowledge on warfare -- he may have earnestly believed they were working for Orlais. Obviously wrong for the part of the Fereldan Wardens, but understandable on why he would've thought that.

He probably thought that their intention was to weaken Ferelden to the point where they had to rely on Orlais' aid to defeat the Darkspawn, wherein history would repeat itself -- both the Orlesian Occupation of Ferelden and Orlais' history of "helping" nations defeat the Blights.

Again, it's all wrong, but it's not a baseless accusation itself. There's a lot to support it, and had he known the circumstances of the Tower's delay then he probably wouldn't have labeled them as traitors.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2012 - 09:12 .