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[Fallstar]

It's Cailan's fault for getting squished by a measly Ogre. 

On a more serious note, I think that Loghain had the right idea in gist. He needed to keep the majority of his forces alive to fight another day, the darkspawn horde was just too large to fight without reinforcements from Redcliffe, or other races.

But, I still think that he made a mistake. He should have asked Ser Cauthrien to lead a sortie into the horde to escort Cailan from the battle. He'd have lost a fair number of men for sure, but he should have made that sacrifice to give Cailan some breathing room. Even though Cailan wouldn't retreat willingly, I suspect Duncan would be wise enough to see how the battle was going, and Cailan would have listened to Duncan. Loghain absolutely had enough men to secure the king if he had wanted to. 

Is the king's life worth that of probably a hundred or more of Loghain's men? That depends on your idea of what it means to be king I guess, but in this situation, keeping Cailan alive means a unififed Ferelden, a Ferelden that can face the darkspawn without civil war. Obviously we succeeded anyhow  but it sure would have helped if we hadn't had to waste time calling a Landsmeet, and gathering evidence against Loghain. That difference in time could have made the difference in the armies you gather being able to strike at the horde before it reached Denerim.

As for why Loghain didn't do this? We don't know for sure, but it seems he felt that Cailan was not the kind of ruler Ferelden needed during a blight, and I'm sure the prospect of finally having power over the country he has saved so many times helped sweeten the deal.

Just as an aside, in a majority of my playthroughs I let Loghain live. Executing a man of his calibre is a terrible waste regardless of what he has done, and most of my Wardens just stick Alistair on the throne to shut him up. My canon Warden happened to be good friends with Alistair however, and in the end I chose to execute Loghain out of a sense of personal loyalty to Alistair, as this is so important to him. But that is the one decision where I'm still not sure I made the right choice, and I absolutely applaud Bioware for making such a fantastic anti-hero character.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 25 juin 2012 - 10:02 .

[TEWR]

DuskWarden wrote...

But, I still think that he made a mistake. He should have asked Ser Cauthrien to lead a sortie into the horde to escort Cailan from the battle. He'd have lost a fair number of men for sure, but he should have made that sacrifice to give Cailan some breathing room. Even though Cailan wouldn't retreat willingly, I suspect Duncan would be wise enough to see how the battle was going, and Cailan would have listened to Duncan. Loghain absolutely had enough men to secure the king if he had wanted to.

Is the king's life worth that of probably a hundred or more of Loghain's men? That depends on your idea of what it means to be king I guess, but in this situation, keeping Cailan alive means a unififed Ferelden, a Ferelden that can face the darkspawn without civil war. Obviously we succeeded anyhow but it sure would have helped if we hadn't had to waste time calling a Landsmeet, and gathering evidence against Loghain. That difference in time could have made the difference in the armies you gather being able to strike at the horde before it reached Denerim.

I can agree with this. The effort should've been made to save Cailan, even if it still failed.

Although I doubt they would've been able to get to Cailan in time, as Cailan and Duncan die not long after Loghain retreated. So even if he sent some men to rescue the King, I doubt they would've succeeded in rescuing Cailan.

Duncan maybe, but I doubt Cailan would've survived.

It all depends really on how far away Loghain was from Cailan and how many Darkspawn stood between the two of them.

Can't say I'm shedding any tears over Cailan's death though. He was the worst king Ferelden could've had and there's no contesting that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2012 - 02:26 .

[Treacherous J Slither]

GodWood wrote...

JSlither wrote...
Skills?!

Yes, skills.

Loghain's a formidable fighter, a powerful icon of Fereldan sovereignty and as such an effective morale booster for the people of Fereldan. Also he's another body to throw into the jaw of the archdemon.

He's much more useful alive then dead.

You're right man. He is actually more useful alive than dead. No doubt about that. Even if he were just another sword that's better than just another body. Very true.

I'm perfectly willing to work with the bad guys if I deem it necessary. Like when Shepherd had to work with Cerberus in order to stop the Collectors. It had to be done. Cerberus<Collectors. Simple. However, I didn't need Lowgain. I could have used him sure. But I didn't need him. Lowgains usefulness<Lowgains crimes. Simple. Whatever help he could be to me didn't outweigh all the crap he pulled so he died.

[Hayes1987]

thats1evildude wrote...

Not convincing. Never spared him, never will.

Sounds like your mind was made up before you saw this post. Did you even read it?

I suggest you read through it with as open a mind as possible because I find it inconcievable that you find NO convincing arguments. In my mind, there truly is no way not to at least acknowledge that........

Anyway, OP, I really enjoyed reading that cuz Logain is definetly one of my fav villians of all time. TY

[RazorrX]

I am a true DA fan. I have all the books, comics, games and expansions. I played through Origins many times. Loghain lived exactly 1 time and 1 time only - and that was so that he could take the killing blow and redeem his evil actions.

Loghain is a traitor to the crown and people of Ferelden. He allowed his paranoia to betray his supposed best friend on many occasions, sacrificed his king and a large part of the Ferelden Army, engaged in slavery of his own subjects, colluded with blood mages, is responsible for nearly unleashing a cabal of abominations on Ferelden (circle fallout), etc.

His trial was by combat with me and when he was losing he asked for mercy. With 1 exception, I do not give it to him.

Done and done I say.

[Fallstar]

RazorrX wrote...

I am a true DA fan. I have all the books, comics, games and expansions. I played through Origins many times. Loghain lived exactly 1 time and 1 time only - and that was so that he could take the killing blow and redeem his evil actions.

Loghain is a traitor to the crown and people of Ferelden. He allowed his paranoia to betray his supposed best friend on many occasions, sacrificed his king and a large part of the Ferelden Army, engaged in slavery of his own subjects, colluded with blood mages, is responsible for nearly unleashing a cabal of abominations on Ferelden (circle fallout), etc.

His trial was by combat with me and when he was losing he asked for mercy. With 1 exception, I do not give it to him.

Done and done I say.

The battle was lost either way, but yes he did betray his king. Engaging in slavery was wrong. 'Colluding' with blood mages doesn't count against him, or do you have a problem with the Wardens too? What was wrong was not that he used a blood mage, but what he used the blood mage to do, assassinating a rival for political gain/stability. 

He isn't directly responsible for what happened at the circle: he made Uldred an offer, he did not ask Uldred to summon demons and basically destroy the Circle. You can lay the blame for that on Uldred for summoning the demons, the Templars for allowing such a thing to happen or the Circles for driving him to it in the first place.

In addition to that he still possessed an acute military mind, and his past deeds mean he deserves at least consideration. 

It's far from as cut and dry as you make out.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I can agree with this. The effort should've been made to save Cailan, even if it still failed.

Although I doubt they would've been able to get to Cailan in time, as Cailan and Duncan die not long after Loghain retreated. So even if he sent some men to rescue the King, I doubt they would've succeeded in rescuing Cailan.

Duncan maybe, but I doubt Cailan would've survived.

It all depends really on how far away Loghain was from Cailan and how many Darkspawn stood between the two of them.

Can't say I'm shedding any tears over Cailan's death though. He was the worst king Ferelden could've had and there's no contesting that.

 

It's not just the right thing to do for the good of Ferelden, it was the right move for him to make politically. It would have given the impression that he did his best to save his king's life when he realised the horde was too big, rather than seeming like a purely politically motivated retreat.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 26 juin 2012 - 02:04 .

[Treacherous J Slither]

DuskWarden wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

I am a true DA fan. I have all the books, comics, games and expansions. I played through Origins many times. Loghain lived exactly 1 time and 1 time only - and that was so that he could take the killing blow and redeem his evil actions.

Loghain is a traitor to the crown and people of Ferelden. He allowed his paranoia to betray his supposed best friend on many occasions, sacrificed his king and a large part of the Ferelden Army, engaged in slavery of his own subjects, colluded with blood mages, is responsible for nearly unleashing a cabal of abominations on Ferelden (circle fallout), etc.

His trial was by combat with me and when he was losing he asked for mercy. With 1 exception, I do not give it to him.

Done and done I say.

The battle was lost either way, but yes he did betray his king. Engaging in slavery was wrong. 'Colluding' with blood mages doesn't count against him, or do you have a problem with the Wardens too? What was wrong was not that he used a blood mage, but what he used the blood mage to do, assassinating a rival for political gain/stability. 

He isn't directly responsible for what happened at the circle: he made Uldred an offer, he did not ask Uldred to summon demons and basically destroy the Circle. You can lay the blame for that on Uldred for summoning the demons, the Templars for allowing such a thing to happen or the Circles for driving him to it in the first place.

In addition to that he still possessed an acute military mind, and his past deeds mean he deserves at least consideration. 

It's far from as cut and dry as you make out.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I can agree with this. The effort should've been made to save Cailan, even if it still failed.

Although I doubt they would've been able to get to Cailan in time, as Cailan and Duncan die not long after Loghain retreated. So even if he sent some men to rescue the King, I doubt they would've succeeded in rescuing Cailan.

Duncan maybe, but I doubt Cailan would've survived.

It all depends really on how far away Loghain was from Cailan and how many Darkspawn stood between the two of them.

Can't say I'm shedding any tears over Cailan's death though. He was the worst king Ferelden could've had and there's no contesting that.

 

It's not just the right thing to do for the good of Ferelden, it was the right move for him to make politically. It would have given the impression that he did his best to save his king's life when he realised the horde was too big, rather than seeming like a purely politically motivated retreat.

Lowgain premeditated Cailan's death. Even if the battle were to go well, Lowgain would've made sure Cailan never left the field alive. Failure to do so would result in those painted Orlesian fops stepping foot in dog country which Lowgain simply could not allow no matter what. So the pos effectively killed a man he swore fealty to and threw his beloved country into disarray.

His "acute military mind" failed to see the darkspawn as a threat despite their numbers. Failed to realize that maybe just maybe the Wardens knew what the **** they were talking about seeing as how they're a centuries old order of freaking darkspawn experts! Failed to keep his country from falling apart when he was at the reins. Failed to keep his own countrymen safe from predatory foreigners which is the very thing he betrayed the king for in the first place.

Oh, and when I best him in combat he has the nerve to ask for mercy. What a turd. I wish there were more dialogue options at that particular point. It should've went like this:

Lowgain: "Mercy Warden!"

Warden: "Give me one good reason why I should spare your life."

Lowgain: "I-I'm a brilliant general!"

Warden: "All evidence to the contrary." *brutally eviscerates Lowgain*

[TEWR]

DuskWarden wrote...

It's not just the right thing to do for the good of Ferelden, it was the right move for him to make politically. It would have given the impression that he did his best to save his king's life when he realised the horde was too big, rather than seeming like a purely politically motivated retreat.

To be fair, Loghain's a horrible politician. It's definitely the obvious course of action, but.... well... Loghain sucks at understanding the minds of politicians, despite being the Teyrn of Gwaren himself.

DuskWarden wrote...

It's far from as cut and dry as you make out.

Most anti-Loghain posters tend to try to make it so, ignoring facts produced in-game or by David Gaider himself.

JSlither wrote...

Lowgain premeditated Cailan's death

No he didn't. We have dev comments along with in-game facts to say otherwise.

His "acute military mind" failed to see the darkspawn as a threat despite their numbers.

Prior to the battle we take part in, their numbers were manageable, albeit steadily increasing with each battle.

And we have dev comments that he was planning out various eventualities, based on the increase of numbers.

Frankly, there are only a few things at Ostagar that I consider tactical failures, but the blame for them rests on the shoulders of Bioware or Cailan, not Loghain.

Bioware doesn't know **** about warfare, if you'll pardon my bluntness. And Cailan is the definition of an Idiot Hero.

Failed to keep his country from falling apart when he was at the reins

Well, he is a horrible politician. No one's saying otherwise. He had to rely on Howe just to make political decisions.

And given how much I detest Howe and find that Howe doesn't have a political mind either, I'd place blame on Howe and the Bannorn more then Loghain for causing the country to fall into ruin.

Some of what Loghain did didn't help matters, but I don't primarily place blame on Loghain.

Oh, and when I best him in combat he has the nerve to ask for mercy.

He didn't ask for mercy. He yielded. There's a difference between begging for your life and saying "I surrender. Do what you will".

He's content to be executed, if that's what you desire. And if you do so, he goes to his grave knowing that there's someone else capable of leading the armies and hasn't made the mistakes he has.

But like I said on the previous page, I would find him living the 30 Warden years the Joining gives him to be a much better punishment, because he has to live with the knowledge of everything he now considers to have been a mistake -- the slavery, the bounties on the Wardens, etc.

He makes it known in Return to Ostagar that he knew just how much he sacrificed there and what he lost. He makes it known in certain dialogue options that the actions of a general are not easy and one must live with it -- sometimes even find methods to cope with it.

He'll be burdened by those things for the rest of his life.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 juin 2012 - 04:28 .

[Ducky MoMo]

I have killed him, and spared his life. At the time i spared his life ( yes i talk to myself when playing games ) i was thinking that if i showed no mercy, that would make me as low as he. Yes, his ideas were twisted, but if one can not SHOW mercy, how can one's self be excepted to HAVE mercy bestowed upon them? When Alistair started throwing a fit, i almost gave in, but that would be like giving into a child's temper tantrum whn they don't get their way. Did i feel bad for betraying Alistair? Of course. But in the long run, Loghain did have more experience in the field than i. And at the end he WANTED to atone for his crimes. Does that make the crimes he commited excusable? Of course not, but at least he wanted to TRY and make things right in the only way he KNEW how.

Well that's my opinion anways