173 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

I would rather have the damage output of soldiers buffed. And a salarian infiltrator doing far more power damage with his energy drain then the salarian engineer...
Its idiotic that cloak boosts power damage too.

[InfamousResult]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Oh I see.

Well for what it's worth I don't have a problem with TC, even though I'm more of a vanguard guy myself.

That's fair enough. And if you want to stick around and say why you don't think TC is unbalanced, you're free to do that too- that's what these forums are for, after all, is discussion.

I play Infiltrator and Vanguard- and sometimes I play an Adept. About 35-40% of my playtime is Infiltrator, so I don't feel I'm being too biased when I talk about why I think it's an unbalanced class / why TC is unbalanced.

[tonnactus]

codename2o2 wrote...

Don't worry about it. Bioware isn't going to listen to the inane rabble of fools that are only less than 1% of people who actually play the game.

They listen to the minority of idiots that wanted the removal of mako and elevators...

[humes spork]

Feauce wrote...

What you're missing is that it wasn't intended to be a weapons-only buff...

...and key here is that tactical cloak isn't intended to be a damage-only buff.

Seriously, what on Earth utility does an infiltrator bring to the table? What benefit are they to the team? How do they synergize with teammates and justify their presence in a cooperative game? Name me one thing that's not done just as well if not better by another class, that involves neither tactical cloak nor sabotage, and I'll give you a cookie. Better yet, give me an answer that doesn't involve the player being actually penalized for performing in that capacity and I'd give you my entire damn manifest if I could.

That's where the infiltrator is. They're a class in a team game whose only utility penalizes the player. No, killing enemies isn't utility -- anyone can do that. Moreover, what the class incentivizes -- solo play, at the cost of beggaring one's teammates -- runs entirely contrary to the very premise of cooperative play.

[mpompeo27]

I think Infiltrators are fine as they are and TC should not be nerfed, but I mean, seriously? You really think they'd become worthless if TC got nerfed? Do you really need a 90% damage bonus to function in this game and have fun? "Oh no, my damage bonus is ONLY 70% now! What ever shall I do?"

Again, they shouldn't get nerfed, but if they do they will still be a highly effective and highly playable class.

Just as a side note: I barely play Infiltrators but love having them on my team.

Modifié par mpompeo27, 13 juin 2012 - 11:44 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

What if, and I'm fully aware that I may be talking out of my ass here since I don't play an Inf on Gold... but what if they reduced the rank 6 damage bonus, but added in the ability to bypass shield gate while using any sniper rifle?

[E71]

InfamousResult wrote...

"Balance TC" =/= "Ruin TC"

Sorry if you believe that having ridiculous damage buffs AND cloaking are absolutely necessary to the Infiltrator and that ANY reduction to damage or cooldown would absolutely ruin the class, and the game, for you. That is truly a shame.

What really is a shame is that there's still people like you trying to speak for the other 99% -- what you think we all need ("balance").

[Gwyphon]

I don't think infiltrator is op, just easy. Sure I get massive scores when playing them, but I get teh same playing an adept or vanguard on gold. It's just a lot more about cover and movement due to the enemy actually being able to see you.
Don't think infiltrators need to be nerfed, just soldiers need to be buffed as they should have more weapon damage bonuses, just ****ty abilities. (Because we all know they're useless on gold).

[Gwyphon]

Oh and just as a side note, infiltrators who use smg's (pretty much just the hurricane) get FAR MORE points than ones that just use a sniper rifle. Sniper rifle infiltrators are not a problem because of shield gate.

[InfamousResult]

E71 wrote...

What really is a shame is that there's still people like you trying to speak for the other 99% -- what you think we all need ("balance").

Never said I was speaking for you, or anybody else.

Funny how that works- me not saying things, and you saying that I said them.

[Grunt_Platform]

 So here's some math on Tactical Cloak, if anybody's interested:

The M-92 Mantis X has a base damage of 769.5, and a Geth Infiltrator can have the following bonuses to weapon damage:

• Networked AI: +22.5% (All weapon damage evolutions)
• Hunter Mode: +17.5%
• Tactical Cloak: +90%
• Tactical Cloak rank 6: Sniper rifles do 40% extra damage when cloaked

So with Tactical Cloak at Rank 4, the Mantis deals 1,769.9 damage, 4424.75 with headshots, enough to take out an Assault Trooper with a single body shot, and kill the other basic troopers with headshots, and two-shot anything short of armored bosses in two headshots. With the rank 6 bonus, it deals 2477.79 damage, and 6194.475 damage with headshots. At this point, if it could score headshots on Brutes and Ravagers, it could kill them in two hits. Just to be clear, this means the total damage multiplier for Tactical Cloak jumps from 230% at Rank 4, to 322% at Rank 6. It's enough to kill Marauders with two body shots on Gold. It would even be enough to kill a phantom with two body shots, if they didn't tend to block so much damage.

This is after the Hunter Mode nerf, and with only the common sniper rifle everybody can get to rank 10 easily, no ammo or weapon mods used.

The proposed nerfs people are talking about would be to either make the rank 6 bonus only 30%, or make it additive, and to pair this nerf to tactical cloak with a general buff to sniper rifles. Even without that buff, the proposed nerfs would have the following effects

• If the rank 6 bonus were only 30%: GI w/ Mantis X deals 2300.8 damage with a body shot.
• If it were made additive:  GI w/ Mantis X deals 2077.6 damage with a body shot
• At the worst, reducing Tactical Cloak's damage bonus to "only" +70%, with the rank 6 bonus made additive would drop the damage of the Mantis to 1923.7. One extended barrel away from killing a Canibal in one body shot, and a Marauder in two.

Neither of these proposed changes would "ruin" the class; a Cannibal has only 2025 Health on Gold, afterall. If sniper rilfes would be too weak, a general buff to their damage wouldn't be hard, and buffing the base damage of sniper rifles would improve them for everybody, not just Infiltrators.

The key thing here is that if that last multiplier for Tactical Cloak were smaller, new guns like the Krysae  would be much easier to balance.

Note: Comparing my math to Grimy Bunyip's damage calculator, my numbers seem a bit low. Not entirely sure why, but I know the damage calculation for Hunter Mode is apparently better than expected.

Modifié par EvanKester, 14 juin 2012 - 01:04 .

[Dream-Maker]

humes spork wrote...

Seriously, what on Earth utility does an infiltrator bring to the table? What benefit are they to the team? How do they synergize with teammates and justify their presence in a cooperative game? Name me one thing that's not done just as well if not better by another class, that involves neither tactical cloak nor sabotage, and I'll give you a cookie. Better yet, give me an answer that doesn't involve the player being actually penalized for performing in that capacity and I'd give you my entire damn manifest if I could.

That's where the infiltrator is. They're a class in a team game whose only utility penalizes the player. No, killing enemies isn't utility -- anyone can do that. Moreover, what the class incentivizes -- solo play, at the cost of beggaring one's teammates -- runs entirely contrary to the very premise of cooperative play.

That's how most people play the infiltrator, not how it should be played cooperatively. Therefore it's wrong to assume that infiltrators can't bring any utility to the team.

First, regarding sniper infiltrators, they can support the team by prioritizing targets that are dangerous to the team or immediately threatening teammates and not just killing everything in sight.

Second, the cloack power offers incredible utility in itself. It makes the infiltrators the best medic class in the game and also the best hacker for objectives. You can also use it as a sniper to safely change position to better protect your teammates. And no one forces you to cloack all the time, if you're in a difficult situation don't want your team to take more aggro just be smart and refrain from using it all the time.

Third, too many people associate infiltrators with and only with TC and forget that they have other powers that do provide utility to the team. Debuff with proximity mine, stripping defenses and setting/triggering tech bursts with energy drain or arc grenade, tactical scan (no need to talk about that), slowing or freezing targets with cryo blast, and let's not even talk about sabotage.

So infiltrators can be a great support class, it's just that people are too attracted by the easy side of the class which is "spam TC mindlessly and become a killing machine". IMO this class is a paradox, it's both the easiest class to play if you go on a selfish perspective, but also one of the hardest to play properly as a support role. The main difficulty here (if we can say that) being to not forget that infiltrators do have powers that aren't TC and work just as well as the other classes powers' do.

In this regard, I personally think that TC could use a nerf on the damage department as long as it still allows people to one shot (or two shot with a valiant whatever people can already do today) weaker enemies with the proper setup, in order to remind players that this class isn't and shouldn't only be about pure damage. It makes no sense that they are also the best at boss killing.

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 14 juin 2012 - 12:47 .

[Xaijin]

Infiltrators already get passive boosts through race upgrades. The very simply solution is to make the +40% additive. Problem solved.

[Xaijin]

Dream-Maker wrote...

wall of text

So essentially, people should ignore the actual designed benefit to the class, and play according to an abstract "politeness" motif.

Perchance, have you actually played MP lately?

[Rodrrigoww]

LOL @ the pepper avatar guy saying soldier should have the highest dps , so let me get this straight , besides having shields that can actually regenerate decently , unlike infs , a whole 100% buff to their shields , 40% dr , spamable grenades , they should be able to do more damage than an infi with their guns ?Ok then.
Pull this crap move and I , along with others will quit this game , people that actually spent money on this and supported the dlc you play will be quitting , then i can only wih good luck to the reamining whiners.Will probably visit this forum for the laughs.

[Dream-Maker]

Xaijin wrote...

Dream-Maker wrote...

wall of text

So essentially, people should ignore the actual designed benefit to the class, and play according to an abstract "politeness" motif.

Perchance, have you actually played MP lately?

What ? You're making me say things I didn't say. In short what I am saying is that infiltrators already have everything they need to be played as a great support class and are not forced to be "selfish" or "useless to the team". I'm not saying that the DPS side should be ignored right now, and considering the numbers it would be stupid to do so. That's what I think is the problem with this class because it completely overshadows the many possibilities the infiltrators do have.

And by the way I don't see what right now prevents infiltrators to actually play as an asset to the team while still pulling out awesome DPS.

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 14 juin 2012 - 01:04 .

[Feauce]

Personally, I run a Viper on most of my Infiltrators for its quick deployment as a support rifle. I've even gotten some of the friends I play with to reconsider their initial evaluation of it.

[Hyperionyht]

As an avid and enthusiastic Infiltrator, I'm confused as to what these suggested nerfs are aimed to accomplish. The class is a variant of an old RPG archetype, the rogue, which gets squashed like a bug but does high burst damage to single targets if it manages to mitigate potential damage through evasion. The reason that the Infiltrator seems to be so much more effective than the other classes is because it was purposely designed to be the class that does the most damage to single targets in the game, in addition to the utility of invisibility when tackling certain objectives. Nerfing the cloaking damage bonuses work against one the primary/necessary assets of the class: killing all lower-ranked mooks in one shot so you won't die from a glancing blow. What is 20% less bonus damage supposed to accomplish except get the rogue killed? The only situation in which this change would have a tangible effect would be one in which the infiltrator would not kill an enemy when he otherwise would have, thus exposing himself to enemy fire and very likely getting himself killed. This kind of nerf, one that fails to even recognize the basic design of the game and would make no positive impact to its playability if implemented, is senseless and should be resisted. Now, a change that emphasizes the class's role, say by lowering an infiltrator's shields by 50% for the duration of a tactical cloak, would be quite interesting to discuss.

In addition, let me say that we infiltrators rely on the rest of our team much more heavily then we care to admit. Their sheer existence helps us to be as effective as we are, and no amount of extra damage bonuses matters when our GIs are under fire and have lost their shields. After all, feigning death doesn't work in this game if you're the only one left. An infiltrator can only be as effective as his team enables him to be.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I don't see what the big deal is. What is everyone crying about? Infiltrators do high damage to single targets. So what? So do biotics. Those explosions tear armor apart. Nice to look at too. If anything they need to BUFF the Infiltrator so that Tactical Cloak works 100% of the time just like it does in storymode.

Infiltrators have it hard enough what with some enemies seeing right through our invisibility and being squishy and our shields not recharging.

Vanguards need to be nerfed if anything. Biotic Charge is just too powerful. They shouldn't be allowed to get their barrier back lol.

[humes spork]

Dream-Maker wrote...

Stuff.

So in other words, considering what I said that you quoted -- cite utility the infiltrator has that doesn't involve TC or sabotage and is something other classes can't do better -- the best you have is "killing high priority enemies". When I already brought that up, and that killing is no real form of utility at all given anyone can do it and with a little skill and finesse just as well as infiltrators. So...you got nothin'.

Which was my point to begin with, that the class has precious little to add in the support/utility game, which limits their role and place within a cooperative game that was built on the foundation of synergy and coordination between players and classes. And moreover, what support and utility the class has comes at the cost of penalizing the player -- using cloak for utility sends its cooldown through the roof, being a dedicated debuffer (at which you're inferior to the other tech classes and some biotics) eats cooldown cycles whether it be cloak's or the global, and keeps you from doing the infiltrator's "core" role of killing high-priority targets (which, as I said is no real form of utility in and of itself, let alone unique).

So, in the end we seem to completely agree with each other -- the class' utility needs a buff, even if that comes at the loss of damage. Honestly, I mentioned earlier in this thread (I think) changing TC's cooldown could potentially do it, by making the minimum cooldown effected by encumbrance and hard-capping the maximum cooldown. Therefore, no penalty for using cloak for utility, and a lower turnover rate on cloak-snipe allowing for equal burst damage but not total damage by way of fewer cloak cycles, meaning infiltrators will actually have to prioritize their targets for maximum effect.

Modifié par humes spork, 14 juin 2012 - 04:01 .

[Dream-Maker]

humes spork wrote...

I think you're dismissing my points too easily, and no we do not agree because in my opinion infiltrators already have enough utility that is only being overshadowed by cloack's unreasonable damage bonuses. I don't see why they would need more, they may not be a better support class than engineers or sentinels for example but saying that they can't do it is just wrong.

I can agree though that killing high priority targets is not an exclusivity of the infiltrators, however they are the best to do that because they can do it fast and with minimal exposure, at least for the sniper oriented builds.

Still you didn't mention at all the other powers the infiltrators have and I particularly insisted on that point. Most if not all of them can help allies, some of them even synergize with other tech user's powers to produce tech explosions.

And I'm sorry but I don't get your point on how using TC for utility actually hurts the class because of cooldowns. Nothing forces you to take super heavy weapons with you to start with. Using the cloack for revive you risk nothing if you cloack right before reviving. For objectives your cloack indeed runs out a bit before you finish activating the objective. Most people do not see this as a problem, for those who do, there is an extended duration evolution here that fills that purpose. As for the powers breaking cloack cycle there is also an evolution that can allow for one power to be used while staying invisible, so here again where is the problem ? And even if you don't select this evolution nothing prevents the power you just used before shooting to be used by your allies for tech bursts or debuff reinforcement. With a heavy loadout you can even use this power with less cooldown that you should normally have without TC so how could this be bad ?

All in all for a player that wants to be helpful to his team, having TC his certainly better than not having it. The main reason people overlook the utility it can provide is because they focus on all damage builds. And they rigthfully do, because the way TC is right now heavily incites people to do so.

Finally, I don't see why we shouldn't talk about TC and Sabotage's utility values. You want to try to prove that infiltrators cannot be good team players by completely omitting a power that all have in common and another that can turn some enemy units on your team's side and provide debuff for tech powers ? That seems like a pretty illogical and partial way to engage a rational discussion to me but whatever. If you wanted me to prove that without citing those two powers because that's your rule, then I'll gladly admit I failed. But I'm sorry, I don't see the point...

Modifié par Dream-Maker, 14 juin 2012 - 05:09 .

[Feauce]

humes spork wrote...

So in other words, considering what I said that you quoted -- cite utility the infiltrator has that doesn't involve TC or sabotage and is something other classes can't do better -- the best you have is "killing high priority enemies". When I already brought that up, and that killing is no real form of utility at all given anyone can do it and with a little skill and finesse just as well as infiltrators. So...you got nothin'.

You don't get to demand that we justify the class we enjoy, and you certainly don't get to claim that we must do it by ignoring key pieces of what the class is designed to do. Tone down the disrespect or kindly take your unwelcome manner elsewhere.

[LULZferBAKON]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

InfamousResult wrote...

"Balance TC" =/= "Ruin TC"

Sorry if you believe that having ridiculous damage buffs AND cloaking are absolutely necessary to the Infiltrator and that ANY reduction to damage or cooldown would absolutely ruin the class, and the game, for you. That is truly a shame.

Taking away damage buffs = ruining TC.

I have TC specced to level 4 for max duration, and I use it as a cloak, not a super damage buff.

Works fine for me.

[humes spork]

Dream-Maker wrote...

Lots of stuff.

I'm not assuming infiltrators have no utility. I'm questioning what utility they do have and how that fits within the team play focus of the game. That should be evident by the fact I specifically pointed out sabotage and cloak (and specifically excluded them for the purpose of making my point) for their utility and uniqueness, especially for the latter for the fact using cloak for utility penalizes the player by lengthening its cooldown. There's a subtle, but important, distinction there which I think you're not quite grasping to understand my greater point.

Like, for example, cloaking for objectives, to displace for fire support, and reviving as you rightfully pointed out. When you do that cloak's cooldown increases, and in the case of having to use it's maximum duration (reviving a faraway target, displacing or disarming) you end up sitting in cover twiddling your thumbs until one of the lengthiest cooldowns in the game -- made worse by the fact infiltrators tend to (and want to) run heavy, and for their squishiness can't really do much during that cooldown -- refreshes. You're being penalized for being a team player. That's immensely stupid.

As far as the other powers, other classes have those as well and with the latitude to use them to greater effect via passive bonuses, alternate evolutions, lower cooldowns, more latitude to spend skill points, and such. 

You're right to point out infiltrators can be a great support class. I'm not denying that. What I'm pointing out is that infiltrators are difficult to play as support in part because doing so penalizes you, and that infiltrators' utility is rather counter-intuitive unlike any other class in the game, and that runs entirely contrary to the notion of a cooperative game.

[Feauce]

humes spork wrote...

I'm not assuming infiltrators have no utility. I'm questioning what utility they do have and how that fits within the team play focus of the game.

So let me get this straight... Cloaking to capture an objective or revive a teammate, Sabotaging a Geth Prime or Atlas to temporarily remove threat they pose to your team, Proximity Mining a group or a boss to increase the damage your team does to them... These things aren't within the focus of a team-oriented game? Interesting...

humes spork wrote...

There's a subtle, but important, distinction there which I think you're not quite grasping to understand my greater point.

Then perhaps you should explain yourself more clearly.

humes spork wrote...

Like, for example, cloaking for objectives, to displace for fire support, and reviving as you rightfully pointed out. When you do that cloak's cooldown increases, and in the case of having to use it's maximum duration (reviving a faraway target, displacing or disarming) you end up sitting in cover twiddling your thumbs until one of the lengthiest cooldowns in the game -- made worse by the fact infiltrators tend to (and want to) run heavy, and for their squishiness can't really do much during that cooldown -- refreshes. You're being penalized for being a team player. That's immensely stupid.

The recharge times on all of my Infiltrators are swift, for precisely this reason. I use pistols or light snipers to keep my weight in check. An Infiltrator of mine typically has between +160~180% recharge bonus. If you ask me, a recharge speed much longer than 3~3.5 seconds on Tactical Cloak means you're doing something wrong.

humes spork wrote...

As far as the other powers, other classes have those as well and with the latitude to use them to greater effect via passive bonuses, alternate evolutions, lower cooldowns, more latitude to spend skill points, and such.

Most characters have Fitness or an equivalent, and many class powers are fairly similar in design. To what are you referring?

humes spork wrote...

You're right to point out infiltrators can be a great support class. I'm not denying that. What I'm pointing out is that infiltrators are difficult to play as support in part because doing so penalizes you, and that infiltrators' utility is rather counter-intuitive unlike any other class in the game, and that runs entirely contrary to the notion of a cooperative game.

So just because being a support-focused Infiltrator is difficult, that makes it counter-intuitive? If you look at it from a team-focused viewpoint, the class has a lot of utility in that regard without the huge penalties you describe. If you try and be both a team-oriented support character and a hard-hitting one-man-army killing machine, it's bound to cause problems.