173 réponses à ce sujet

[kevchy]

Fix the more jarring issues like the glitches first before we nerf/buff all the things, okay?

[paperbook]

kevchy wrote...

Fix the more jarring issues like the glitches first before we nerf/buff all the things, okay?

Bump ALL the TC balancing necrothreads.

[humes spork]

Feauce wrote...

Good stuff.

First, as I said,

That should be evident by the fact I specifically pointed out sabotage and cloak (and specifically excluded them for the purpose of making my point) for their utility and uniqueness ...

I recognize the utility cloak has to offer, and the utility and uniqueness of sabotage. That's why I excluded it, because it's a given and I'm questioning what else infiltrators bring to the table.

As far as proxy mine, if it's a must-sell then why would you bring an infiltratror opposed to a turian soldier? It's a rhetorical question, because the answer is obvious: because infiltrators can cloak, stupid! Well, if cloak's being only used as a damage buff, don't turians still have more survivability and utility by way of drawing fire from teammates without sacrificing (much) damage through marksman? Again, rhetorical: cloaking can do things that aren't damage-related, too!

Repeat those questions for tac scan and the MQE, ED and the SE, and (as laughable as it is to say right now, but needs be said nevertheless) cryo blast and the FQE. However you get to it, what makes infiltrators preferable always goes back to cloak, one way or another. What separates infiltrators from those classes, however, infiltrators are more or less beheld to taking six ranks in cloak and six ranks in their class passive; while they're not as beholden to fitness as other classes due to cloak, you have to sacrifice somewhere. That's something every class must do, but the difference is infiltrators' sacrifices to run a tight build are more likely to be in power damage and cooldowns.

It's great you run light on your infiltrator, and keep a focus on the team. That's how I play infiltrators, and how I think they should be run in a team environment. Though with that said, cloak's impact on objective completion comes into play approximately half the time on three out of eleven waves in a game. Three objective waves (3, 6, 10), two objectives out of four that are best-completed by an infiltrator (seek & destroy and disarming). Statistically, that utility comes into play once or twice in a given match. Revival has much more utility, especially in later waves, and will come into play much more often in an average game than an objective completion; even then, assuming competent players and a decent degree of coordination, you shouldn't be reviving terribly often as your teammates will be downed less. Outside that, you're cloaking and sniping.

...which is where cloak's minimum cooldown comes in. When doing the cloak-shoot cycle which is the most common use for cloak regardless how much utility cloaking you do, you're still eating a three-second cooldown whether you're carrying just a predator X, or a javelin I and claymore I. As I mentioned just a paragraph ago, the better your teammates are, the less that utility matters, which creates a circumstance in which better cohesion and higher competency results in less utility for cloak and more cloak-shooting.  In either case, you're being effectively penalized for running light, for the sake of utility.

Add to that the fact the other classes' utility shines through in normal play, while an infiltrator's doesn't. Novaguards, krogan, batarian and vorcha, for example, have utility in drawing fire and distracting/disrupting enemies. Their respective health pools and power sets are set up for engaging in close quarters, meaning those guys play to their strengths while providing their utility without changing up or disrupting their play significantly. Engineers send out their various goodies to distract the enemy while shield-busting and/or tech bursting. Adepts bluesplode while controlling and debuffing. Sentinels and soldiers do their damage while drawing fire from squishier teammates.

Infiltrators, on the other hand, have to drop whatever it is they were currently doing, cloak, perform their act of utility, wait for cloak to cool down, then return to their normally-scheduled program. Yes, that's how reviving and doing objectives work (with the sole exception of assassination waves), but on the other hand it disrupts the infiltrator's rhythm and forces them to multitask to perform the prescribed "team role". Indeed, that's more directly the result of player convention opposed to class mechanics (but for cloak's cooldown) but given the infiltrator's natural "fit" to those roles, cloak's mechanics should benefit that opposed to penalize it.

[molecularman]

N7 Rixus wrote...

Infiltrator TC it depends what part of the TC do you want it nerfed for example proper cooldown means less using the tactical cloak more chance for other classes to get more kills without the infiltrator spamming that TC, allowing one shot allowed for the TC but that makes it limited to 1 hit shotguns and and 1 hit sniper rifles like the widow, or maybe just lower the damage bonus, OR just do that all together.

Any of those can happen if it does get nerfed more people are just going for the damage bonus loss some are choosing something different other then lowering the damage bonus.

I'm all in for tweaking the ridiculous cooldown - what, you get 2.5 sec damage boost and your TC recharges in 3 secs? Basically continuous damage boost, oh right...

[ENRAGED PILLOWS]

Take away SOME not ALL. All would be stupid I agree. But some is perfect.

Think about it this way: They didn't put in SIX classes for ONE to rule them all. Honestly, the nerf would help Salarian Inf. BW Energy Drain Spammers back down to Earth. Not gonna lie, I constantly abuse the Infiltrator to the max/ All Gold matches I use Salarian Inf/ Valiant why use anything else? It's not like anything can match the RIDICULOUS DPS of the Inf. WTF. I feel that if the damage was DECREASED not removed entirely, it would really help them be a TEAM PLAYER instead of THE PLAYER.

[Bergioynn]

I don't get you nerfers. Why is other people having fun so horrible idea to you that you have to crusade to ruin that fun?

[molecularman]

Bergioynn wrote...

I don't get you nerfers. Why is other people having fun so horrible idea to you that you have to crusade to ruin that fun?

Because OP stuff ruins the flow of the game and class variety? Maybe the game would be more fun if gold actually didn't feel like silver with infiltrators and krysaes everywhere? Agh, it's not so complicated...

[N7 Whiskey]

Schneidend wrote...

Making Tactical Cloak balanced against other powers won't make it useless. It would be very easy to make TC powerful instead of overpowered.

Personally, I think it should just follow standard cooldown/weight mechanics.

Somewhat agree.  The 90% damage increase is only 20% higher than HS AdrenRush spec'd for damage.  Nerf the sniper rifle damage bonus from an additional 40% to 15% and make TC subject to the normal cooldown mechanics and the class is fixed.

[Bergioynn]

If you don't like Infiltrators don't play them. And if you don't want other people playing them either (which is rather stupid IMHO) play private games with like minded individuals. And when it comes to class variety, nerfing infils lessen that, not the other way around.

[Bergioynn]

BuckshotSamurai wrote...
Nerf the sniper rifle damage bonus from an additional 40% to 15% and make TC subject to the normal cooldown mechanics and the class is ruined.

Fixed that for you.

[Grunt_Platform]

Bergioynn wrote...

BuckshotSamurai wrote...
Nerf the sniper rifle damage bonus from an additional 40% to 15% and make TC subject to the normal cooldown mechanics and the class is ruined.

Fixed that for you.

Normal cooldown mechanics would ruin TC.  Reducing its sniper rifle damage bonus? That would barely affect the class, and maybe let some sniper rifles have higher base damage. Maybe even weak points on bosses again, since the high end of Sniper Rifle damage wouldn't be quite so extreme.

[Bergioynn]

I wouldn't say barely, but if the damage reduction came with base damage buff for all the snipers it would be an even trade off, since it would benefit non-infiltrators using snipers without affecting infiltators that much either way.

[Dharvy]

What is wrong with people? Isn't snipers supposed to be one of, if not the highest damage dealer? And aren't sniper rifles some of the heaviest weapons in game? And screwing TC's cooldown just make an Infiltrator kill more slowly and then making the enemies die more slowly and then out the 10 waves, 3 of which is some kind of objective, it takes a little longer.

Is an infiltrator really killing everything in sight and someone is mad that they can't get a kill in? Is that the real problem? Are infiltrators OP that you need do nothing if one or two or three are in a gold game with you? Is it that they do so much damage that if you don't play one, you're bored with nothing to do in any given game with an infiltrator?

When someone brings up the "mad that infiltrators score more" point most everyone crying for the nerf/balance denies it but don't really state anything substantial as to WHY? I would love to hear some good reasons why? What are you all actually proposing? Do you want it to take more that 1-2 cloak cycles of precise shooting to kill some health/shield-health enemy? If everyone but a grenade soldier need to start worrying about cooldowns then who's gonna wield the heavy powerful sniper rifles?

Where are the reasons why? and how it affects the game that they do so much damage with TC?

[XFactor777]

I said it earlier I'll say it again rank 6 needs to be a headshot bonus not general damage bonus and TC is no longer OP

[quorkszz]

As broken as they are its the only thing they have going for them. Besides TC they're just horrible engineers. I'd rather have a broken class then a useless one.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Are the infiltrators going to boycott if it gets nerfed? If so yaaay less infiltrators swearing at us...

Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 15 juin 2012 - 12:42 .

[JiceDuresh]

They just need to change two things. 80% bonus damage when evolved at rank three, and rank 6 needs to be a choice between power damage doing an extra 40% from cloak or an extra 30% sniper damage from cloak. The only reason the GI and SI are so rediculous is because they can fire off powers, faster than other classes, while getting constant extra 90% weapon damage. A Turian has to choose between MM and PM, PM having a 4s CD. GI get's both at a 3s CD.

That change wouldn't hurt the granade users in the least, maybe even make them better.  The only thing that I can see needing changed after that, Cryo Blast on the Human.

Modifié par JiceDuresh, 15 juin 2012 - 12:47 .

[Dharvy]

JiceDuresh wrote...

They just need to change two things. 80% bonus damage when evolved at rank three, and rank 6 needs to be a choice between power damage doing an extra 40% from cloak or an extra 30% sniper damage from cloak. The only reason the GI and SI are so rediculous is because they can fire off powers, faster than other classes, while getting constant extra 90% weapon damage. A Turian has to choose between MM and PM, PM having a 4s CD. GI get's both at a 3s CD.

That change wouldn't hurt the granade users in the least, maybe even make them better.  The only thing that I can see needing changed after that, Cryo Blast on the Human.

Actually they need to make it so  you can do skills while MM is on and that you can fire off more than 1 skill during AR. Therefore you can cast MM then PM then shoot what ever to death. Having to wait for the PM cooldown before MM just takes away from the time period you can do maximum damage and limits your manueverability using CC/PM in an emmergency.

And while I play all classes, (Sentinel/Vanguard a little less,) near equal with a little more play time for Infiltrators I never felt OP. Or I never felt if I was a non-infiltrator and there was an infiltrator on the team that they was OP. I do feel more comfortable with an adept/infiltrator mainly because they are damage dealers and I feel if **** hits the fan I can solo even the big ones, versus other classes having to use a missile because it'll take longer than I'm willing to invest.

[Shock n Awe]

InfamousResult wrote...

"Balance TC" =/= "Ruin TC"

Sorry if you believe that having ridiculous damage buffs AND cloaking are absolutely necessary to the Infiltrator and that ANY reduction to damage or cooldown would absolutely ruin the class, and the game, for you. That is truly a shame.

God forbid Tactical Cloak stayed Tactical Cloak, with the same functions it's had since ME2.

Modifié par Shock n Awe, 15 juin 2012 - 03:03 .

[humes spork]

Shock n Awe wrote...

God forbid Tactical Cloak stayed Tactical Cloak, with the same functions it's had since ME2.

Sometimes I wonder if folks defending TC and its "merely" adequate damage have any concept how to stack damage bonuses, or how much damage they're actually doing if they know how to stack damage bonuses properly.

Hint: a cloaked headshot from even a viper X when you've stacked your damage and debuffs properly is still enough to competely shieldgate or one-shot the health of any enemy in the game even in gold, sparing ravagers, brutes, banshees, atlases, and primes. Viper tops out at 2.8K on a cloaked headshot, and the biggest health/shield/barrier pool is a pryo's shields at 2.6K.

That's the low end. When you get to stuff like widow, black widow, javelin, valiant, even the mantis X, you're talking 5K+ on a cloaked headshot. The worst-case scenario there is trying to one-shot a pyro on silver from 100% shields and health which still only requires 8.3K damage given 75% DR shieldgate, 1700 health and shields -- doable, with a javelin or widow.

Modifié par humes spork, 15 juin 2012 - 07:17 .

[Princess Rolf]

/signed

[Esther]

Dharvy wrote...

Isn't snipers supposed to be one of, if not the highest damage dealer? And aren't sniper rifles some of the heaviest weapons in game?
If everyone but a grenade soldier need to start worrying about cooldowns then who's gonna wield the heavy powerful sniper rifles?

This. 
I just don't get you, nerfers. 

[Feauce]

humes spork wrote...

I recognize the utility cloak has to offer, and the utility and uniqueness of sabotage. That's why I excluded it, because it's a given and I'm questioning what else infiltrators bring to the table.

Tactical Cloak alone gives an Infiltrator a lot of utility, as multiple people have shown. On top of that, each one gets additional powers, such as Sabotage, Energy Drain, etc. Why does the class need more utility than these abilities already give it? It seems like you're either dismissing Infiltrator as less-than-optimal by excluding what makes it work, or calling for an overall buff to the Infiltrator with the false assumption that we don't already get enough, and I'm having a hard time figuring out which one it is.

humes spork wrote...


As far as proxy mine, if it's a must-sell then why would you bring an infiltratror opposed to a turian soldier? It's a rhetorical question, because the answer is obvious: because infiltrators can cloak, stupid! Well, if cloak's being only used as a damage buff, don't turians still have more survivability and utility by way of drawing fire from teammates without sacrificing (much) damage through marksman? Again, rhetorical: cloaking can do things that aren't damage-related, too!

Most of the time on my turian Soldier, I'm spamming Concussive Shot. I leave Proximity Mine for my salarian and geth Infiltrators. Yes, a Cloaked Mine will one-shot most basic troopers, but that's not what I usually use it for unless they're in groups (such as a pack of Cannibals munching on a corpse). Most of the time I stay visible and use it to soften up bosses (particularly the Atlas and Brute) with its damage-increasing debuff.

humes spork wrote...


Repeat those questions for tac scan and the MQE, ED and the SE, and (as laughable as it is to say right now, but needs be said nevertheless) cryo blast and the FQE. However you get to it, what makes infiltrators preferable always goes back to cloak, one way or another. What separates infiltrators from those classes, however, infiltrators are more or less beheld to taking six ranks in cloak and six ranks in their class passive; while they're not as beholden to fitness as other classes due to cloak, you have to sacrifice somewhere. That's something every class must do, but the difference is infiltrators' sacrifices to run a tight build are more likely to be in power damage and cooldowns.

While it is true that I like the salarian Infiltrator for the abilities it gets, that's mostly because of Proximity Mine and Energy Drain. Tactical Cloak is just a really nice bonus to the combination, especially with the Power Use upgrade, making the salarian the only Infiltrator who can restore their shields while Cloaked. If the salarians swapped use of Proximity Mine and Incinerate, I would honestly be more likely to use the Engineer.

humes spork wrote...


It's great you run light on your infiltrator, and keep a focus on the team. That's how I play infiltrators, and how I think they should be run in a team environment. Though with that said, cloak's impact on objective completion comes into play approximately half the time on three out of eleven waves in a game. Three objective waves (3, 6, 10), two objectives out of four that are best-completed by an infiltrator (seek & destroy and disarming). Statistically, that utility comes into play once or twice in a given match. Revival has much more utility, especially in later waves, and will come into play much more often in an average game than an objective completion; even then, assuming competent players and a decent degree of coordination, you shouldn't be reviving terribly often as your teammates will be downed less. Outside that, you're cloaking and sniping.

The "outside that" depends on which one I'm using. The salarian scans around the map for targets and either Mines them or Drains then shoots with a Carnifex. Quarian female typically carries either Carnifex or Viper, and serves as distraction, Sabotager, and clean-up. Humans either run heavy damage with a Mantis/Widow or light powers with Viper/Phalanx/Carnifex. Very few of those follow the "cloaking and sniping" routine.

humes spork wrote...


...which is where cloak's minimum cooldown comes in. When doing the cloak-shoot cycle which is the most common use for cloak regardless how much utility cloaking you do, you're still eating a three-second cooldown whether you're carrying just a predator X, or a javelin I and claymore I. As I mentioned just a paragraph ago, the better your teammates are, the less that utility matters, which creates a circumstance in which better cohesion and higher competency results in less utility for cloak and more cloak-shooting.  In either case, you're being effectively penalized for running light, for the sake of utility.

I don't see how we're being penalized for running light, especially compared to other power-based classes like the Adept. Yes, you could run with a pair of heavy weapons, only Cloak when you had to, and deal with a 12+ sec recharge on your Cloak. You could do the same on a Vanguard, and only Charge when necessary. Most people I see don't do that because their powers are more useful to them. I guess I'm just not understanding where your complaint about the recharge speed is coming from; I've never had any issues balancing recharge with weapon loadout.

humes spork wrote...


Add to that the fact the other classes' utility shines through in normal play, while an infiltrator's doesn't. Novaguards, krogan, batarian and vorcha, for example, have utility in drawing fire and distracting/disrupting enemies. Their respective health pools and power sets are set up for engaging in close quarters, meaning those guys play to their strengths while providing their utility without changing up or disrupting their play significantly. Engineers send out their various goodies to distract the enemy while shield-busting and/or tech bursting. Adepts bluesplode while controlling and debuffing. Sentinels and soldiers do their damage while drawing fire from squishier teammates.

Infiltrators, on the other hand, have to drop whatever it is they were currently doing, cloak, perform their act of utility, wait for cloak to cool down, then return to their normally-scheduled program. Yes, that's how reviving and doing objectives work (with the sole exception of assassination waves), but on the other hand it disrupts the infiltrator's rhythm and forces them to multitask to perform the prescribed "team role". Indeed, that's more directly the result of player convention opposed to class mechanics (but for cloak's cooldown) but given the infiltrator's natural "fit" to those roles, cloak's mechanics should benefit that opposed to penalize it.

I throw my hands up at this one; it makes no sense. Those characters are built differently because they have a completely different focus. Most of their "utility" is in killing things fast, which is something you said we couldn't use to describe an Infiltrator's utility to the team. An Infiltrator won't likely soak up damage for a teammate, certainly, but they can take out what's beating on said teammate in a hurry. My main question with this is, what do you want? Because you can't have it both ways.