395 réponses à ce sujet

[D.Shepard]

Atheosis wrote...

Jernau11 wrote...

Nothing wrong w/ TC. When you couple TC with a skilled shooter it's balanced fine.

Problem is still the Krysae. There were few complaints about TC until Rocket Training Wheels came along. Think about it, if someone ran an aimbot with the Krysae it would make 0 difference in their gameplay. Take out the ability to miss and TC becomes OP more than any other class.

Infiltrators feel like easy mode to me with many other guns aside from the Krysae.

Tell this to the countless of Infiltrators I have carried through Gold matches with any possible class. Very easy mode....
Easy death,
Easy uselessness,
Easy fail,
Etc...

It's most often then about the player, another easy thing few persons refuse to accept.
Regarding the krysae: it a very overrated weapon: minimal DPS, low rate of fire. Not even it's AoE is enough to counter a three phantoms assault. Falcon staggers them better.

You have to consider even the casual players, the players who play with unskilled randoms. You know they have the same right to have fun then the "nerfers".

It's a game, it's about fun (for everyone, not just a small elite). If nerfers want to feel real badasses why they don't join the military or something like that. They may prove their" badassness" and make something useful... just my suggestion, though

[Jernau11]

D.Shepard wrote...

Regarding the krysae: it a very overrated weapon: minimal DPS, low rate of fire. Not even it's AoE is enough to counter a three phantoms assault. Falcon staggers them better.

You have to consider even the casual players, the players who play with unskilled randoms. You know they have the same right to have fun then the "nerfers".

It's a game, it's about fun (for everyone, not just a small elite). If nerfers want to feel real badasses why they don't join the military or something like that. They may prove their" badassness" and make something useful... just my suggestion, though

There are plenty of classes that work well for casual players. Most powers don't require aim. The point of a causal player is they shiuldn't be whipping out enemies like a snowplow.

In the hands of a relitively unskilled infitrator it means they can hit every shot. It benefits from a TC evolution that was never meant for an AOE weapon as evidenced by the fact that it was balanced by shieldgate. Add in sniper rifle rail and ammo and it 2 shots stuff on gold easily. Krysae is effectively in ingame aimbot. Developing good aim takes time and effort like most skills. It was how we weeded out the bad infilttrators from the good ones.

Aim should be rewarded. Last patch they removed headshots on bosses and brought in the Krysae. Now everyones crying for a TC nerf. To me at least its clear why.

Modifié par Jernau11, 19 juin 2012 - 03:43 .

[UKStory135]

I played with a GI using the Javelin last night. Even with full HM, TC, and Geth Passive bonuses, you still can't one-headshot a nemesis on Silver with the most powerful SR in the game. The idea that Sniper Infiltrators are OP is silly. The nerfers kind of have a point with shotgun Infiltrators, but they aren't much if any more powerful than Shotgun HS's.

If anyone is going to propose nerfing calls, they should at least think about what is OP. Sheild gating keeps SR's in check. A SR could do OVER 9000!!!!! damage, and still take two + shots to kill everything but troopers, cannibals, and husks.

[theFrEAk117]

signed

[D.Shepard]

Jernau11 wrote...

D.Shepard wrote...

Regarding the krysae: it a very overrated weapon: minimal DPS, low rate of fire. Not even it's AoE is enough to counter a three phantoms assault. Falcon staggers them better.

You have to consider even the casual players, the players who play with unskilled randoms. You know they have the same right to have fun then the "nerfers".

It's a game, it's about fun (for everyone, not just a small elite). If nerfers want to feel real badasses why they don't join the military or something like that. They may prove their" badassness" and make something useful... just my suggestion, though

There are plenty of classes that work well for casual players. Most powers don't require aim.

In the hands of a relitively unskilled infitrator it means they can hit every shot. Add in sniper rifle rail and ammo and it 2 shots stuff on gold easily. Krysae is effectively in ingame aimbot. Developing good aim takes time and effort like most skills. It was how we weeded out the bad infilttrators from the good ones.

Aim should be rewarded. Last patch they removed headshots on bosses and brought in the Krysae. Now everyones crying for a TC nerf. To me at least its clear why.

I can assure you you still need skill to aim with infiltrators. You are not completely invisible and most targets are very elusive.
I dind't say Infiltrator is for casual players ( you may have read I said I carried many infiltrators through Gold).
I wanted to say that a good player that want to complete a Gold match in a reasonable time with an unskilled random team needs every available asset . This include TC, if they like it.

I met a lot a Krysae users. Few of them survived three waves, not to mention outscoring other players. They ended at the bottom ranks.
I hade better performances with other weapons. It's about personal tastes and thus it's about that "variety" who demands balance in  MP game. TC nerf would reduce it.

[Poison_Berrie]

zerozen00 wrote...

Sniper Rifle bonus is multiplicative on base damage

Enemies are caught by surprise, so yeah, they suffer immense damage. Makes sense to me.

No I mean the Sniper Rifle damage evolution is seperate from all other bonuses. 

(Base Dam * 1.4) * (1 + 0.9 + Other Damage bonuses)

This is a tremendous boost to every shot a Sniper Infiltrator does.

Which is longer than most power cooldowns. And snipers weigh a lot, so it makes sense to me. The bonus damage is because you take the enemy by surprise, so again it makes sense to me.

Sure a Salarian Infiltrator can't spam ED like an Engineer, but it can use both a stonger version and do massive damage with his weapon. It's can use powers really well and do exeptional damage on top.
An Infiltrator can use (without investing in a special evolution) two powers with a cooldown of 4 seconds while carrying the heaviest weapons.

It's a very weapon oriented class, and TacCloak is the power without which Infiltrators would just be a shooting decoy. It's logical Infiltrator builds revolve around TC.

No I'm saying internally TC offers little incintive for taking a longer duration of 40% extra damage or for picking the bonus power over investing points in another skill.

[Jernau11]

I'm actually against the nerf D.Sheppard. I just believe the reason so many people are up in arms is because of the Krysea.

Im talking about the kind of skill that headshots 8/10+ not the kind that scores body shots on atlases.

Modifié par Jernau11, 19 juin 2012 - 03:48 .

[Megakoresh]

I'll sign. Cloak is what makes inf a good team player. If the damage buff is decreased all it's gonna do is make matches longer and decrease the fun. Before screaming "NERF!" think of what that nerf will do with the game.
Same as Krysae. You screamed "KILLS EVERYTHING! NERF!" so they nerfed it. Made it hit less instead of nerfing projectile size to require aim. Result? Same skill-less crap and easy win, but just takes longer time now.
Community can work for pointing out issues, but please. When it comes to balance changes, go and ask your top N7 ranked hardcore base about those. Because only those people have actually played the game enough to understand what a certain change will do.

[Samurai Knecht]

Signed.

[D.Shepard]

Jernau11 wrote...

I'm actually against the nerf D.Sheppard. I just believe the reason so many people are up in arms is because of the Krysea.

Im talking about the kind of skill that headshots 8/10+ not the kind that scores body shots on atlases.

I didn't want to appear rude Jernau
Krysae may seems to make "target acquisition" easy but when you reach mid waves when you are swarmed by enemies the "autoaim-like" trait of the weapon will be of no use. The slow rate of fire will put the unskilled players in danger.

However I agree with you. It's all due the Krysae, rightly or wrongly, it is the cause of this nerf requests.

For the records when I feel the desire to show my shooting abilities scoring 20+ headshots I use a Claymore, wonderful weapon.

[Jernau11]

No sugestion of rudeness taken. Good discussion. Love the claymore. Try out that paladin of yours, its a beast.

Modifié par Jernau11, 19 juin 2012 - 03:58 .

[D.Shepard]

Jernau11 wrote...

No sugestion of rudeness taken. Good discussion. Love the claymore.

Claymore is amazing.... GPS is another fun gun...
It would be  a pity ruining a class just because someone fear the "Krysae Effect".
I use nerly every class but I like the style of Infiltrator. I always loved cloaking devices in warfare.

[.458]

/Signed

PS: It isn't about the gun that makes one a good player, especially not on any infiltrator. It's how it teaches you to look at the surroundings and watch and listen. It is about learning triage of killing order (firing solution if you want). The reason the infiltrator gun kills so well is not because it hits a little harder...that helps...the real reason is because of how it teaches one to play.

Also, the cloak is not as good as people think it is. Players see cloak and think the player goes invisible...not true. Only the lesser units can't see past it.

Modifié par .458, 19 juin 2012 - 04:04 .

[Fang92]

My solution. Make all weapon damage on the tactical cloak power headshot damage.

Modifié par Fang92, 19 juin 2012 - 04:34 .

[Poison_Berrie]

D.Shepard wrote...

A game that simulate special operations in a Sci-Fi setting. How many times did you see a movie and you though it was boring illogical because it made no sense. Well fighting Reapers with waterguns make no sense. Call it good sense if you don't like the word realism.

Loads of times, but I've been kind of spoiled by Atomic Rockets. 
But the heart of my arguments is that whether a theoretical Spec Ops team would be refitted because of too powerful weapons is irrelevant to this discussion. It's about balance and whether Tactical Cloak or whatever is considered to break that balance or not. 

Beside do you know TC works half of the times if you are not hosting? And you even claim it is unbalanced. I saw many examples of "undesired de-cloaking". Leave or reduce TC damage bonus and Infiltrator becomes very unbalanced, namely useless.

Many things are wonky when not hosting. That's a bug, not an inbalance.
I also get undesired misses with Incinerate even when the lag doesn't seem that bad. I have BE's not detonating, even though I've set them up. I have missiles and projectiles dissappearing.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 19 juin 2012 - 04:43 .

[Jernau11]

Fang92 wrote...

My solution. Make all weapon damage on the tactical cloak power headshot damage.

This would in effect discourage skilled aiming. It would also buff the Krysae which doesn't need it.

Poison_Berrie wrote...
Many things are wonking when not hosting. That's a bug, not an inbalance.
I
also get undesired misses with Incinerate even when the lag doesn't
seem that bad. I have BE's not detonating, even though I've set them up.
I have missiles and projectiles dissappearing.

Get MEPinger.

Modifié par Jernau11, 19 juin 2012 - 04:43 .

[Poison_Berrie]

Jernau11 wrote...

Get MEPinger.

Thank you kind sir. 

[Malditor]

MEPinger huh, not sure where I'd get that.

[Dr Derp]

signed

[Jernau11]

Malditor wrote...

MEPinger huh, not sure where I'd get that.

ME Pinger curtosy of Creakazoid

It only works on PC I think, but Steven Hawking will tell you what country your connected to and sometimes your ping.

Modifié par Jernau11, 19 juin 2012 - 05:10 .

[D.Shepard]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

D.Shepard wrote...

A game that simulate special operations in a Sci-Fi setting. How many times did you see a movie and you though it was boring illogical because it made no sense. Well fighting Reapers with waterguns make no sense. Call it good sense if you don't like the word realism.

Loads of times, but I've been kind of spoiled by Atomic Rockets. 
But the heart of my arguments is that whether a theoretical Spec Ops team would be refitted because of too powerful weapons is irrelevant to this discussion. It's about balance and whether Tactical Cloak or whatever is considered to break that balance or not. 

Beside do you know TC works half of the times if you are not hosting? And you even claim it is unbalanced. I saw many examples of "undesired de-cloaking". Leave or reduce TC damage bonus and Infiltrator becomes very unbalanced, namely useless.

Many things are wonky when not hosting. That's a bug, not an inbalance.
I also get undesired misses with Incinerate even when the lag doesn't seem that bad. I have BE's not detonating, even though I've set them up. I have missiles and projectiles dissappearing.

You talk about balance without stating your "parameters" for balance, except "TC is unbalanced".
I may agree about the bug nature. However it still make the power unbalanced and needed to be fixed, maybe before calling for nerfs.
The Spec Ops realism argument is important as it is the red-blue-green endings. If something makes no sense it forces many players to leave the game.
Obviously you missed the "irony" of my statement. Sorry, but if you missed my joke anout Nerfers is not my problem. In fact it's not a problem at all

I explained why altering the damage bonus of TC will make it even more unbalanced. I may be wrong but at least I wrote an argument. All of this nerf requests are based on "It's OP, it's unbalanced" but no parameter has been provided.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Jernau11 wrote...

Fang92 wrote...

My solution. Make all weapon damage on the tactical cloak power headshot damage.

This would in effect discourage skilled aiming. It would also buff the Krysae which doesn't need it.

How so?

[Malditor]

Jernau11 wrote...

Malditor wrote...

MEPinger huh, not sure where I'd get that.

ME Pinger curtosy of Creakazoid

It only works on PC I think, but Steven Hawking will tell you what country your connected to and sometimes your ping.

Thank you

[ZephyrAM]

Okay, I can understand loving TC for what it is. Conceptually, it's a great ability and isn't innately OP.

What I can't understand is how it's possible to not see the massive damage difference between it and any other class. This thing can outshine biotic explosions for gods sakes, and those are percentile damage.

And no, it isn't an automatic 'I win' button as far as the entire match goes. Just having an infiltrator does not guarantee a match win. However, any decent player on an infiltrator can kill 'anything', and often hordes of most anything, easily and without fear. Sure, we all screw up or get hit with bad luck at some point and die, but TC makes infiltrator's simultaneously the most survivable and most damaging class in the game hands down.

But mostly, it's just the sheer weapon damage bonus that bothers me, and it's effect on the overall game. For a classic quote, ' this is why we can't have nice things'. No well designed weapons will ever avoid the nerf hammer so long as TC is around to make them OP. TC ruins weapons for every other class.

[Poison_Berrie]

D.Shepard wrote...

You talk about balance without stating your "parameters" for balance, except "TC is unbalanced".

I gave them in another posts, but they weren't related to the point I was making. Which was that bringing in real world Spec Ops teams is irrelevant to the issue of wehther a power/class/weapon is balanced conform the rest of the pool inside the game.

The Spec Ops realism argument is important as it is the red-blue-green endings. If something makes no sense it forces many players to leave the game.

True to a certain extent, but in this case the matter isn't a grave breaker of suspension of disbelieve.

I explained why altering the damage bonus of TC will make it even more unbalanced. I may be wrong but at least I wrote an argument. All of this nerf requests are based on "It's OP, it's unbalanced" but no parameter has been provided.

Plenty have been provided, but just as people don't give a reason for why TC is balanced, there are those who don't give their reason for why do think it's unbalanced. 
Likewise I don't need to reiterate my points every time, especially when I'm merely pointing out the flaw in your reasoning.