395 réponses à ce sujet

[Seldon2639]

Every class is overpowered for a given idea of overpowered. At a certain point, Bioware needs to take a clue from their peers at Blizzard for online gameplay: eventually you have to stop tweaking in response to "OMG this specific spec is OP" unless it's so grossly overpowered that it's actually disruptive to gameplay.

In a competitive game, tweaking makes a lot more sense. In a cooperative game, why do I give a damn that someone else is kicking ass? **I** benefit from it, too. Instead, Geth hunter mode gets nerfed into the ground, along with the new sniper rifle, and now they want to make TC less useful.

Has anyone managed to give a good reason *why* a cooperative game needs to hew to strict balance between the classes? Is it really just e-peen issues?

[Poison_Berrie]

I do think too many people (on both sides) seem to unjustly think that these nerf calls actually are the source of all balance changes.

[Jernau11]

ZephyrAM wrote...
What I can't understand is how it's possible to not see the massive damage difference between it and any other class. This thing can outshine biotic explosions for gods sakes, and those are percentile damage.

Not all classes are focused primarily on damge. Infiltrators are. Also a good BE class well played can outshine an Infiltrator. Your just playing with crappy Biotics, they probably think tech powers override warp (it doesn't just use throw a few more times and your BE will work, its last in first out).

ZephyrAM wrote...
However, any decent player on an infiltrator can kill 'anything', and often hordes of most anything, easily and without fear.

The right build combo will also do this. Try a SE with a tempest and disrupter ammo. Its tech burst mayhem. When I play this class I outdo most infiltrators.

ZephyrAM wrote...
Sure, we all screw up or get hit with bad luck at some point and die, but TC makes infiltrator's simultaneously the most survivable and most damaging class in the game hands down.

Your experience is limited, again try the SE, you can stand up and shoot, cause tech bursts and your shields 80% of the time be full. Infitrators can run though large groups of enemy, sometimes. Bullets do not pass though them, they can and frequently do die cloaked. Also they have few hit points, no damage reduction (except SI) and weaker shields than a lot of class.

ZephyrAM wrote...
But mostly, it's just the sheer weapon damage bonus that bothers me, and it's effect on the overall game. For a classic quote, ' this is why we can't have nice things'. No well designed weapons will ever avoid the nerf hammer so long as TC is around to make them OP. TC ruins weapons for every other class.

Two things here, First the Krysae needs to be nerfed. Its not a well designed thing. Nice things does not = Aimbot, which is what the Krysae fundementally is. It broke the game and now people would rather break infistrators rather than loose it.  Two Shieldgate is the great equaliser. Doing butloads of damage to one target only instakills red bar enemies. It hardly does anything against Bosses and requires a lot of skill to use effectively. class that requires a lot of skill to use well are well designed class that give people room to grow into. Maybe you think you can't aim. I used to think that too, now I headshot everything. You get better.

Modifié par Jernau11, 19 juin 2012 - 06:28 .

[ElectroNeonPanda]

Jernau11 wrote...

Not all classes are focused primarily on damge. Infiltrators are.

Or not.  Just because their currently overbuffed prime ability lets them do insane damage doesn't mean they're supposed to be focussed on damage.  It could be equally argued their primary role is objective capper or battlefield medic.

[Jernau11]

ElectroNeonPanda wrote..

Or not.  Just because their currently overbuffed prime ability lets them do insane damage doesn't mean they're supposed to be focussed on damage.  It could be equally argued their primary role is objective capper or battlefield medic.

You could argue that yes. You could even believe it if you really tried hard. When I play my infiltrator I both revive and cap but only when it's needed. Defining our role by something we do maybe 10% of the time over what we do 90% of the time seems a bit mistaken.

If your going to nerf TC then you need to nerf Biotic Explosions, Tech Bursts, and anything else that does less than supersoaker scale damage because both of these well played can compete with TC for total damage. Most people just don't do it right. Some classes may need a buff, but you don't create an equal playing field by leveling everything, you just get a lot of rubble.

Modifié par Jernau11, 19 juin 2012 - 07:32 .

[Typhoniel]

/signed

Cloak is fine!

[D.Shepard]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

D.Shepard wrote...

You talk about balance without stating your "parameters" for balance, except "TC is unbalanced".

I gave them in another posts, but they weren't related to the point I was making. Which was that bringing in real world Spec Ops teams is irrelevant to the issue of wehther a power/class/weapon is balanced conform the rest of the pool inside the game.

The Spec Ops realism argument is important as it is the red-blue-green endings. If something makes no sense it forces many players to leave the game.

True to a certain extent, but in this case the matter isn't a grave breaker of suspension of disbelieve.

I explained why altering the damage bonus of TC will make it even more unbalanced. I may be wrong but at least I wrote an argument. All of this nerf requests are based on "It's OP, it's unbalanced" but no parameter has been provided.

Plenty have been provided, but just as people don't give a reason for why TC is balanced, there are those who don't give their reason for why do think it's unbalanced. 
Likewise I don't need to reiterate my points every time, especially when I'm merely pointing out the flaw in your reasoning.

And you talk about flaws? Very funny, indeed.
Did you post your parameters regarding "overpowered/umbalance"? I didn't see them. I just read several opinions both pro and against TC but they are just opinions.
So my reasoning has flaws because I don't agree with you?

Just a suggestion: If you think my reasoning has flaws confute it. I have no problem in agreeing with you, if you can confute my reasoning.
Anyway everyone will keep his/her opinions, it's the web after all.

It seems TC will not be nerfedthis week  ! Eric Fagnan posted a topic about the delay of the next balance changes and he said there will be only buff.

So for now I have to suppose BW agrees with the pro TC point of view, since they aren't about to nerf it.

EDIT: corrected typing error. I mistyped Fagnan.. sorry Eric

Modifié par D.Shepard, 19 juin 2012 - 09:06 .

[Poison_Berrie]

The flaw in your argument was that you involved real world Special Forces as reason for TC not needing balance, rather than keeping at the topic at hand on whether or not TC is overpowered.

In essence that would mean you acknowledge that it's OP, but you feel it has to be for your suspension of disbelieve. (Which you don't, you later on state it)

Like I said this is a game, different consideration apply to it than the real world or realistic theoreticals.
It has nothing to do with whether you agree with me or not, since I wasn't arguing the specifics of TC with you.

[D.Shepard]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

The flaw in your argument was that you involved real world Special Forces as reason for TC not needing balance, rather than keeping at the topic at hand on whether or not TC is overpowered.

In essence that would mean you acknowledge that it's OP, but you feel it has to be for your suspension of disbelieve. (Which you don't, you later on state it)

Like I said this is a game, different consideration apply to it than the real world or realistic theoreticals.
It has nothing to do with whether you agree with me or not, since I wasn't arguing the specifics of TC with you.

So my only flaw is an intentional "witty remark" or even a joke, if you prefer. Why do you think I mentioned Seals and waterguns?
And when I made this remark I was referring to the "nerfing" attitude in general.
When did I acknowledged it is OP? Ah I forgot you decided I did it... of course

I just said it is useful. If useful means OP for you then I was right about the nerfing attitude.
You still failed in providing the parameters of "overpowered".
I said bonus damage is the trait of Infitrators, an intentional design. Remove damage bonus for infiltrator and what do oyu have? A limited invisibility, not very useful.

Since it's a game it's about fun but you want to change it because of your claims of "unbalance".
Anyway you are off topic too. This topic is not about whether TC is "OP" or not. Original poster made a petion about keeping it in the current state. If you don't agree don't sign the petition.

If you reserve the right to make off topic comments I reserve the same right too.

In few words your flaws are even more than I supposed, no offence intended.

P.S.: I'm still waiting for your "Overpowered parameters".
Beside realism is important too. Do you want bullets that don't follow laws of physics, for example?
Someone blame BW because the red-blue-green endings make no sense, other blame BW if they look for realism (it's a game who care about realism). Poor BW! What should they do to make everyone happy?

If it's a serious game I demand realism. If I'd not look for realism I would play games like the comical "Lego series". They allow you to have fun without caring about realism.

EDIT:

The flaw in your argument was that you involved real world Special Forces as reason for TC not needing balance

I'll try to polite because I don't want to violate the site rules. You have just acribed to me what I never said. Do not make disinformation, thank you. I'd like to discuss with you about this matter but if you turn this into disinformation, I can't continue it because I don't want to be rude. I already mentioned the nature of the "Special Forces remark" (not an argument on TC). So try to be accurate when you quote or interpretate other persons' words. Thanks.

Modifié par D.Shepard, 20 juin 2012 - 12:27 .

[Fallen Angel707]

Signed

[Poison_Berrie]

D.Shepard wrote...
So my only flaw is an intentional "witty remark" or even a joke, if you prefer. Why do you think I mentioned Seals and waterguns?
And when I made this remark I was referring to the "nerfing" attitude in general.
When did I acknowledged it is OP? Ah I forgot you decided I did it... of course

I just said it is useful. If useful means OP for you then I was right about the nerfing attitude.

Okay it was a joke and your point was that you thought it was merely usefull. That clears things up.
Also I never implied you actually acknowledged it as OP (it is in the post), that was a miscommunication of your point.
To be fair your initial post wasn't really reflective of what you said above and more a generalization of this fictional "nerfer faction" so many seem to think excist.

You still failed in providing the parameters of "overpowered".

Overpowered is something I rarely use. I'd guess the only thing I'd consider overpowered is the Sniper Damage boost. It's multiplicative rather than addiative and therefor ramps up the damage done by all other bonus by a huge factor (it's creates the new base damage on which all other damage bonuses are calculated).

Mostly I'm concerned with unbalanced, though. Unbalanced is when countering factors (negatives or checks) on a weapon/skill are too few.
In the case of Tactical Cloak we have a power that grants a massive damage bonus to both power and shots in a small timeframe at the same time, that can circumvent the encumberance issue every other class faces. 
 

I said bonus damage is the trait of Infitrators, an intentional design. Remove damage bonus for infiltrator and what do you have? A limited invisibility, not very useful.

I don't think there is anyone who actually wants the entire damage bonus removed and only a few who really want to cut it down much (well except for the Sniper Damage).
I certainly don't think the damage (other than Sniper Damage) should be touched too much.

[darkblade]

/signed

[krysohmy7]

/signed

I may be willing to accept tuning down the damage bonuses, but cloak itself is just fine, thank you

[D.Shepard]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Okay it was a joke and your point was that you thought it was merely usefull. That clears things up.
Also I never implied you actually acknowledged it as OP (it is in the post), that was a miscommunication of your point.
To be fair your initial post wasn't really reflective of what you said above and more a generalization of this fictional "nerfer faction" so many seem to think excist.

A miscommunication can occur, especially when the poster is not native English like me. I suppose I have a least a moderate knowledge of that language but I may create some misunderstanding when I quickly type a long reply in forum post. Sadly I have to be fast because I don't have a lot of time to spend on forums 

Don't blame me for that. At least I can talk a foreign language, I suppose most users would make even greater misundertanding if they talked in my language (it's not a very "famous" one, so no one study it )

Overpowered is something I rarely use. I'd guess the only thing I'd consider overpowered is the Sniper Damage boost. It's multiplicative rather than addiative and therefor ramps up the damage done by all other bonus by a huge factor (it's creates the new base damage on which all other damage bonuses are calculated).

Mostly I'm concerned with unbalanced, though. Unbalanced is when countering factors (negatives or checks) on a weapon/skill are too few.
In the case of Tactical Cloak we have a power that grants a massive damage bonus to both power and shots in a small timeframe at the same time, that can circumvent the encumberance issue every other class faces

But this is the intentional "design" for a class that cannot do anything more than boosting its own damage output.
For the records I don't even sniper rifles with my infiltrators. In ME3 I finally found a purpose for shotguns I tend to equipe infiltrators with them.

Honestly the first time I discovered about TC recharge time I was puzzled. However this is still an intentional mechanic like "reload cancel".  I tried to explain how changing any of the infiltrators mechanics could alter the class to the point of altrerinf its very nature. That's why I hope BW will be very cautious. In other words I'd like to not make things worse.
Anyway usually infiltrators, a part from Quarian Male, have issues with crowd control. Even QMI cannot spam "crowd control" powers since grenades are very limited even with the grenade capacity gear, especially if there are other grenades user on the map.

I don't think there is anyone who actually wants the entire damage bonus removed and only a few who really want to cut it down much (well except for the Sniper Damage).
I certainly don't think the damage (other than Sniper Damage) should be touched too much.

Do you know a slight reduction won't change the current situation? Consider Hunter Mode for example.
7.5% damage reduction mean about 75 less damage on weapon that inflicts 1000 damage. I doubt it makes claymore builds for GI much different.

I suppose leaving the base damage at the current level and reducing the sniper damage bonus of small percentage could be possible "arrangement". (don't call me selfish, since I said I sued mostly shotguns on infiltrators )
However I still believe the matter is very difficult since it affect the very core of this class, thus requires a great amount of caution, hence the reason I signed the petition.
I prefer the "status quo" to a nerf that ruins the class' fun.
I believe it's a reasonable opinion, after all.

[BoomDynamite]

BUMP

[paperbook]

BoomDynamite wrote...

BUMP

Why?

[Gockey]

paperbook wrote...

BoomDynamite wrote...

BUMP

Why?

Because it has one week left till the nerfbat connects.  Probably hoping that a plethora of /signed may forestall the inevitable.

[ibor4you]

The Infiltrator class is always powerfull class in almost all games, there is no need to be different here.
If u don't like it = don't use it

Modifié par ibor4you, 22 juin 2012 - 02:36 .

[DNC Protoman]

It's happening. All you nerfers cried and cried for weapon nerfs that would hurt all classes so your overpowered infiltrators could be maintained. NO MORE. This is for the good of all.

[BoomDynamite]

paperbook wrote...

BoomDynamite wrote...

BUMP

Why?

Because someone else created a petition a day ago, while this is a week old.

Modifié par BoomDynamite, 22 juin 2012 - 02:45 .

[ElectroNeonPanda]

BoomDynamite wrote...

paperbook wrote...

BoomDynamite wrote...

BUMP

Why?

Because someone else created a petition a day ago, while this is a week old.

It's dropped off the front page for a reason, constantly bumping your own thread in the foolish belief that you'll sway the devs' decision amounts to nothing more than spam.  If you disagree with that then maybe you need to go back earlier in this thread where you bumped your own bump.  

Modifié par ElectroNeonPanda, 22 juin 2012 - 03:30 .