48 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

I think the Divine is pro mage ,but in a "chantry" way.Sure it's not very common for somebody in her position (maybe a first),but i think there's a big difference between wanting the mages to be better treated by the chantry and wanting the mages to be free.
What happened in Kirkwall , with a Knight Commander ignoring the request of Elthina , Grand Cleric and a circle of magi that also ignore the chantry by fleeing the circle and going "yes , Blood magic is great ", is a threat to the Chantry.So , i don't see why the Divine wouldn't want to go all exalted march , mage sympathy or not.People die in those kind of event anyway.

Now is a exalted march a good thing?I don't think so , I imagine it's a holy tornado , it gets rid of everything and then things can start anew for the Chantry.

[TEWR]

Reznore57 wrote...

I think the Divine is pro mage ,but in a "chantry" way

Correct. She doesn't support total mage freedom, but she does support reform and giving the Mages more rights.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Being in favour of a slight increase in mage rights doesn't equate to approving of open rebellion

I never said she favored open rebellion?

And it's easy to label it as such, if you ignore the actual context of things and that the Mages of Kirkwall were primarily not rebelling against the Chantry or the Circles or the Templar Order as an idea.

Just Meredith and her like-minded cronies.

Or are you talking about the current Mage-Templar War? If so, then that's something I can see her supporting because the Mages were given sufficient reason to rebel against the Chantry and the Circles, based on what Lambert was doing.

And besides, she's willing to give them more rights. The Mages want more rights, within reason.

She's probably going to support them and if they have any brains whatsoever they'd protect her because she serves their interest better if she's alive.

. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to call her "pro-mage".

By supporting more rights for the Mages, she's automatically pro-mage.

And she happens to state that abuses have been committed against them for centuries. We don't know the extent of how many rights she wants to give them -- unless you have a quote from Asunder? I haven't read it myself, only going off of the more notorious details.

If there isn't a quote from Asunder stating how many rights she's willing to give them, then I'm going to assume that she's going to give them the rights they deserve -- save for total mage freedom.

Meaning the right to love, not being abused by the Chantry and Templars, and probably the option for all mages -- not just the rich ones or the war heroes -- to eventually prove themselves able to leave the Circle and live in places with a Templar presence, with required checks in place to not make it total mage freedom.

Regardless, she's shown to have almost no actual power. The Templar and Seekers completely ignore her and she doesn't do anything to enforce her authority. They could easily call an Exalted March in her name wthout any actual input from her.

She has no actual power once her views on Mage rights become clear, which happens in Asunder as I understand it.

But prior to that, she still has power because the Templars and the majority of Seekers don't know her stance on the issue.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 juin 2012 - 03:54 .

[Reznore57]

Some spoil from Asunder:




She didn't wanted to made research to cure tranquility but how to get mage rid of magic.
That's worrying.And besides she sentences an ex tranquil to tranquility again to appease the Lord Seeker.
She's the Divine , she has a chantry agenda .I mean sure she sympathize ,that's nice and all , but mages are not the only "victim" of the chantry , the city elves are too.
I guess we 'll see in the future just how far her sympathy and devotion to her religion can go.
If she doesn't get killed by the mages/templars/seekers along the way .She has a lot of fans , Im' sure .

[TEWR]

She's the Divine , she has a chantry agenda

Yup. Those are some of the more notorious elements from the book.

And I'm not going to contest she has a Chantry agenda. I'm not contesting that in fact. But part of her agenda is making sure that no party has too much power.

Giving mages more rights automatically makes her pro-mage. And being pro-mage is not the same as being pro-Tevinter or in support total mage freedom with no oversights whatsoever.

It can be, but it isn't always that way. I'd say that in order for being pro-mage to mean any of those two things, you must first be in support of one of those two things.

In that pro-Tevinter makes you pro-mage in the most extreme sense, but being pro-mage doesn't make you pro-Tevinter.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 juin 2012 - 04:25 .

[cJohnOne]

An Exalted March kind of sucks all the attention to itself being of such high importance. Everything else seems trivial.

[The Elder King]

I really don't know how they're going to put the EM together with the plot of the next DA game. I doubt that the March is against the mages, considering the mindset of the Divine. It could be against Kirkwall, but there are some problems. From now on, there'll be spoiler from DA: Asunder, so stop reading if you don't know the contents of the book.






The major problem is that we don't know how the Thedas nations reacted to the war between mages and templars. They might have huge problem in their places, and they could be unable to partecipare to the March.
And from Asunder we do know that in Orlais, the strongest Andrastrian nation, there'll be a civil war. If the next DA game will be set in Orlais, I think the major plot (or one of the major plots) will be the Orlesian Civil War. I doubt Orlais could partecipate in an eventual March.
Plus, the Chantry suffered a huge hit. They lost the majority of the Templars and the Seekers. I think the major concern of the Divine is stop the war. Unless the March is against the Imperium or the Qunari (they both might try to invade the Andrastrian nations, though is more likely the latter than the former), I don't think the Divine should risk to call a March, especially if it'll be against a single city.

[Teddie Sage]

I still want the Exalted March DLC... *cries*

[The Elder King]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

@hhh89

You allready said it in your reply I think. The next installment can begin with the threat of a war that will involve most of Thedas but that will be stopped with interference/help of the new MC. (Just a thought coming from me here....)

All kinds of other plot related things/storylines can start from there.

It could be, it the main plot will be the EM, or the mages-templar war. Those are definitely threats for a "world" war.
If the main plot will be around the other thing I mentioned in my post, the mages-templar war and the "possible" EM, could be dealt with the successive games.

[Wulfram]

Reznore57 wrote...

mages are not the only "victim" of the chantry , the city elves are too.
.

What does the Chantry do to the city elves?

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

mages are not the only "victim" of the chantry , the city elves are too.
.

What does the Chantry do to the city elves?

1) They tell the Dalish Elves to convert or die. Which basically means they're trying to force them to live as impoverished and hated citizens in their cities. In other words, they don't want City Elves to seek out the Dalish, because they don't want the Dalish to exist. If all the Dalish are dead or city Elves, then the Elves lose that last bit of hope that they can have a better life.

2) Their idea of being generous after the Exalted March of the Dales was for them to live in walled off slums

3) They removed the Canticle of Shartan after the Exalted March of the Dales, which was a source of inspiration for many Elves.

and a few others.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 juin 2012 - 12:31 .

[Sylvianus]

Actually they pointed out the city elves and not the dalish. His question is relevant because I don't remember anything the chantry has done against city elves. Or are we talking about humans overall and especially their Lords ?

[TEWR]

Sylvianus wrote...

Actually they pointed out the city elves and not the dalish. His question is relevant because I don't remember anything the chantry has done against city elves. Or are we talking about humans overall and especially their Lords ?

Petrice used the City Elves to further her plans against the Qunari, which as a result may cause the City Elves to face even more distrust despite how the Chantry was the source of those problems.

She's a fanatic of the Chantry, but nevertheless a part of the Chantry.

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

1) They tell the Dalish Elves to convert or die

Irrelevant to city elves, who are already Andrastean.  Though I'd note that elves can live in the city openly wearing tatoos proclaiming their allegiance to Elvish gods,

2) Their idea of being generous after the Exalted March of the Dales was for them to live in walled off slums

Yeah, the elves were treated horrifically after the Exalted March of the Dales.  But what is the Chantry doing to the City Elves now?  Not humanity in general, the Chantry.

The Chantry does not make them live in the Alienages

3) They removed the Canticle of Shartan after the Exalted March of the Dales, which was a source of inspiration for many Elves.

I doubt it was, since few elves were Andrastean until after the Exalted March.  Anyway, they can have in their canon what they wish - and it would be pretty odd to be singing songs about how cool the elves are while they were raping and murdering their way through Val Royeaux.  It's not like they suppress knowledge of it, or erased Shartan's place from history.

[Sylvianus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Actually they pointed out the city elves and not the dalish. His question is relevant because I don't remember anything the chantry has done against city elves. Or are we talking about humans overall and especially their Lords ?

Petrice used the City Elves to further her plans against the Qunari, which as a result may cause the City Elves to face even more distrust despite how the Chantry was the source of those problems.

She's a fanatic of the Chantry, but nevertheless a part of the Chantry.

It is a thought very expeditious. Petrice was alone, she did that alone ( some fanatics ), the chantry wasn't concerned, she did act against authorities's will.You're confusing me. You should not pretend that the policy of the chantry aims the city elves from an activist group acting alone, as if it were an installed system and enacted. Petrice had her own agenda and not that of the chantry. She acted secretly and not openly. There are black sheeps, extremists everywhere. From what I've seen the chantry does not care about the city elves. There are no premeditated aggressive thoughts against them.

 Otherwise, a group of mages in the circle killed a few civilians one day, they are all bad then. It's the same logic. Civilians are victims of the Mages's circle, they are their targets obviously. That's their policy. It's the same thing. 

 The city elves aren't at all victims of the chantry, but rather the human's society. Racism, discrimination, dirty politics. We can say they are influenced because of teachings of the chantry to the very least, ( that doesn't excuse them though ) but that's it.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 juin 2012 - 01:19 .

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

Irrelevant to city elves, who are already Andrastean

It's not irrelevant, if you look at the bigger picture that it possibly conveys -- which I tried to edit in to my post.

. Though I'd note that elves can live in the city openly wearing tatoos proclaiming their allegiance to Elvish gods,

Most humans probably don't know the significance of Vallaslin. Brother Genitivi knows, but he had to go out of his way to find it out. And besides, it's a tattoo. A tattoo doesn't automatically mean you still worship the religion. It's stuck in your skin. You could be an Andrastian Elf that has a Dalish tattoo.

And IIRC, when playing a City Elf in DAO you can't choose Dalish tattoos. I believe it was just human tattoos available.

But it's been a long time since I played a City Elf.

That said, there are some Alienage Elves in DAII with Dalish tattoos.

I doubt it was, since few elves were Andrastean until after the Exalted March

You don't have to be Andrastian Elf to be inspired by what Shartan did.

Although I should correct myself. It's not the Canticle so much that was an inspiration, but Shartan himself. However, the canticle does tell of Shartan's thoughts and actions, so it's possible that it may have been important to the Elves of the Dales. They may have read it, for nothing more then to understand what Shartan himself wrote.

And indeed, if we were to take the codex on the Dark Moon as being penned by a Dalish Elf, then that would mean they did read it.

If we were to take it as such, anyway.

and it would be pretty odd to be singing songs about how cool the elves are while they were raping and murdering their way through Val Royeaux.

First, I said they removed it after. Not during. They did it after, which is adding insult to injury.

Second, I doubt the Elves were raping anyone. The way Leliana told the story of the Exalted March of the Dales, it seemed like the Chantry were the aggressors at first despite their claim that the Elves struck first, saying that the Elves' worship of their gods angered the Chantry.

Third, the Dissonant Verses aren't really allowed to be read. Or peope are at least faced with hostility in doing so. Anyone that wants to study them has to do so in anonymity, as we see in Awakening in regards to the Canticle of Maferath -- another one of the Dissonant Verses.

Since study of the Dissonant Verses is frowned upon, discretion is of the utmost importance

Source Around the 14:50 mark.

Fourth, most people now want to believe Andraste didn't wage war on the Imperium with the Elves at her side. By removing the Canticle of Shartan, they are now changing history as the common people understand it.

The Chantry does not make them live in the Alienages

They could at least give them their land back. But since the Chantry and Orlais are so deeply intertwined it's sickening, I don't see this happening anytime soon unless Justinia V can get things back together.

Orlais now owns the Dales. I doubt the Chantry would even consider to give that land back to them, and I'm willing to bet if Justinia V even talked about doing such a thing she'd face opposition against that as well.

She's already faced multiple assassination attempts, while others were contemplated.

The Chantry's very much corrupt -- at least, from the Orlesian side -- and so long as they're corrupt then the Chantry is basically forcing the Elves to live in Alienages, from how I see it.

Not actually forcing them to, but so long as Elves don't have a chance of getting a homeland of their own and constantly hear that the Dalish are "savage brutes", then they're pretty much stuck there.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 juin 2012 - 01:29 .

[Pzykozis]

Reznore57 wrote...

Some spoil from Asunder:

She didn't wanted to made research to cure tranquility but how to get mage rid of magic.

I distinctly remember this being the other way around in the way that she orchestrates all of the circles gaining the knowledge that tranquility can be reversed...

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but..

[Wulfram]

Merrill and Feynriel's mother live in the Alienage, with no sign of objection. And the Dalish Clan sits around outside Kirkwall for years, and only appears to be harassed because it chooses to harbour a fugitive mage.

The Orlesians were likely the aggressors, but the Dalish sacked Val Royeaux. Sacking a city without rape and murder would be unheard of. Though I suppose the Elves might be concerned that such contact with humans might contaminate them.

In Origins, the Chantry seems to be quite happy to talk to random elves in the street about Shartan and the Dissonant Verses, with little prompting. The same dialogue also says the Canticle of Shartan was removed during the Exalted Marches. And of course Leliana clearly knows the story - and she's not a scholar, if she knows the tale it's likely part of popular history.

The Dalish obviously are inspired by Shartan, but by their own tales of him, not by his place in the chant of light.

As for the Dales, expelling the current occupants would be as great a crime as expelling the elves in the first place. And the Dalish Elves certainly wouldn't be willing to live side by side, since their whole ideology is based on avoiding the pollution of contact with humans.

[Dormiglione]

The expansion "Exalted March" was a good idea because i think it would have expanded the DA2 story line. But i wouldnt have bought it because im absolute not interested in Hawke or anything related to DA2. Loved DAO, but dislike very much DA2.

[Mercedes-Benz]

An Exalted March on the Qunari lands would be interesting.