182 réponses à ce sujet

[molecularman]

Atheosis

Feel free to read this thread then http://social.biowar...ndex/12492321/1

HV gets completely overshadowed by GI melee and adepts

[RNG God]

Now for the first post actually on topic =P

MQI, 25 from the middle east.
Likes electricity, as well as surveys.
Prefers partners cook Bonanas.

Seriously though, and the Fagnan said "Let there be balance!" Balance was achieved, and it was good.

Modifié par SalvationThroughDestruction, 14 juin 2012 - 09:59 .

[Atheosis]

molecularman wrote...

Atheosis

Feel free to read this thread then http://social.biowar...ndex/12492321/1

HV gets completely overshadowed by GI melee and adepts

Oh do those get virtual indestructibility as well?

[molecularman]

Indeed virtual when charge unresponsiveness gets you killed just as often as other classes. Tanking adds no value to a good team

Wrong thread for arguing about this anyway

[Atheosis]

molecularman wrote...

Indeed virtual when charge unresponsiveness gets you killed just as often as other classes. Tanking adds no value to a good team

Wrong thread for arguing about this anyway

Many people have no problems charging when hosting.  I can't speak for your personal experience, but my point remains.  Human Vanguard are extremely powerful unless they glitch (client or host).  Balance changes are not going to fix such glitches.  Therefore buffing Human Vanguard would completely fail to address the actual issue.

[Dynamik78]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

We are looking at the Female Quarian for next week's balance changes

Cool

[DarkerCompanion]

Atheosis wrote...

Why would anyone complain about Incinerate getting buffed?  Only one truly great class has it, and the actual damage from Incinerate is not why it's really good.

I can back this. Most classes with Incinerate pass on it, or at least, they don't max it out, because there are higher priorities. Human and mQuarian Engineers are the only solid Engineers who frequently use it at a high rank, while fQuarians either rely on it as their ONLY good power, or neglect it for a rare chance to use Cryo/Turret. Salarians neglect it for Decoy/Shield Drain, and Krogan Sentinels . . . *laughs* I'm sorry, I couldn't take that seriously.

[bajsmongo66]

YAY more ppl will be playing QFE , my QMI got lonely! All quarians all day everyday , make it happen

[Atheosis]

DarkerCompanion wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

Why would anyone complain about Incinerate getting buffed?  Only one truly great class has it, and the actual damage from Incinerate is not why it's really good.

I can back this. Most classes with Incinerate pass on it, or at least, they don't max it out, because there are higher priorities. Human and mQuarian Engineers are the only solid Engineers who frequently use it at a high rank, while fQuarians either rely on it as their ONLY good power, or neglect it for a rare chance to use Cryo/Turret. Salarians neglect it for Decoy/Shield Drain, and Krogan Sentinels . . . *laughs* I'm sorry, I couldn't take that seriously.

Incinerate is squarely in the "usable but throughly underwhelming" category.  It's probably lower on the list of things that need a buff compared to Cryo Blast and Sentry Turret, but it still definitely needs a buff.

[Eire Icon]

I think the turret and Cryo are the skills that need the main buff

For me (and this only bronze and silver I'm talking about because I wouldnt go near Gold with a QFE) the turret is of absolutely no use unless its maxed out. Personally I would like to see it being able to do damage to shields/barriers as opposed to armour, Incinerate can already be used for armour and I think its essential that an engineer has some kind of direct power to sap shields/barriers. A Turret that can take out shields and become a realistic distraction to enemies (Bosses in particular) would be great

For Cryo I really think they need to improve its synergy with Incinerate. This should be the Engineers Warp/Throw. Look at what the adept has got for example, warp/throw - Boom with Stasis on top. I'd like to see movement speed decreased further with a buff on damage to chilled/frozen targets. With Cryo in its current form it dosen't do anything extra to Cryo Ammo. For my MQE I have Cryo and can basically do everything the QFE can do with Tactical Scan and Arc Grenades on top of that

QFE is prob my favourite class to play but I wouldn't even attempt to bring her onto Gold, which is a shame because the Gold lobbies need freshening up

Modifié par Eire Icon, 14 juin 2012 - 10:37 .

[Irkalla]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

We are looking at the Female Quarian for next week's balance changes

<3<3<3

[DarkerCompanion]

Atheosis wrote...

Incinerate is squarely in the "usable but throughly underwhelming" category.  It's probably lower on the list of things that need a buff compared to Cryo Blast and Sentry Turret, but it still definitely needs a buff.

Absolutely! This is how I describe Incinerate all the time. Its like a solid B student, in a classroom full of A+ geniuses and F student delinquents. Its neither good enough to get attention, use and praise, or bad enough to immediately reject or lobby for improvement. That being said, it DOES need improvement to compete with other tech powers.

Eire Icon wrote...
For Cryo I really think they need to improve its synergy with Incinerate. This should be the Engineers Warp/Throw. Look at what the adept has got for example, warp/throw - Boom with Stasis on top. I'd like to see movement speed decreased further with a buff on damage to chilled/frozen targets. With Cryo in its current form it dosen't do anything extra to Cryo Ammo. For my MQE I have Cryo and can basically do everything the QFE can do with Tactical Scan and Arc Grenades on top of that

My issue with improving the synergy is that it doesn't actually improve cryo! It improves a combo, which is only usable by one class in the game. However, what about the Human Infiltrator? While this thread is about the fQuarian, this is a firm example of why the power itself needs an inherent buff, and not just a specific combo improvement. I also dislike it severely when people say Cryo isn't bad because of its Incinerate combo. That doesn't help the Human Infiltrator one bit. But then they say the Infiltrator doesn't need a buff because he has Tactical Cloak, but honestly, how often do HI's show up in Gold lobbies?

I agree about the Ammo synergy. Overloading a Disruptor target causes Tech Bursts, or so I thought. Ammo Piercing Ammo with an Ammo Piercing Mod stacks and adds piercing and armor negation. Why not Cryo Blast and Cryo Ammo?

Truly though, I think its the fQuarians lack of shield stripping which truly hurts her. She is the only Engineer with absolutely no anti-shields power. Furthermore, as an additional punishment for that, since she has no Shock based powers, it also means she has no insta-travel powers, only projectile powers, so she is more subject to enemy dodge than the other Engineers.

I think Cryo needs a SIGNIFICANT duration increase; as it stands, its only 6 seconds, with a delay upon targetting. I'd say 10 seconds at least, with an inherent damage debuff at level one, rather than requiring the high ranks to unlock. Also, the slowdown should be increased, as its not nearly strong enough, and the Slowdown evo conflicts with the damage evo. I've never seen a power where every single evolution is so necessary for the power to actually viable as in the case with Cryo Blast.

I'd like to point out that Tac Scan can do everything that Cryo Blast does, except fully freeze unprotected targets and cause cryo explosions. And everything else it does, it does soooo much better.

Modifié par DarkerCompanion, 14 juin 2012 - 11:02 .

[kevosama]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

We are looking at the Female Quarian for next week's balance changes

Woot! Just unlocked the FQE and was really looking forward to a match with her despite all the smack talk... then realized the smack talk was there for a reason. Hopefully the buff will make her viable!

[Seifer006]

Tyeme Downs wrote...

Of all the playable classes/characters in MP, the QFE really needs some love from the developers.  No matter how much I want to try to love her, she rejects my advances.

As said in pervious posts, her turret is broken.  I guess it must be salvaged parts from shot up Geth turrets that the Quarians never got working properly.  It's targeting function needs serious calibration (where's Garrius when you need him?).  It's shield generator must be on the fritz since it dies so fast....even in bronze.  The flamethrower port needs constant cleaning judging from the way it sputters.

Cryo blast does not live up to its hype.  Sure it's nice against the grunts, can't argue that.  Yes, it does weaken armor.  However, it's weaksause against anything with a shield or barrier.  Also, the chilled aspect does not appear to be working.  You know, the whole double damage thing.  Out of the freezer it's good, out of the frige it's not.

Incinerate is a good power.  However, a girl just can't live on this alone.  On grunts, it synergizes well with cryo because grunts can be frozen.  On everything else, there is no synergy since chill is broken.

I have never understood why she has cryo blast (Mordian's power) instead of energy drain (Tali's power).  The Quarian outlook has centered around getting their home planet back from the Geth for 300 years.  Why doesn't the QFE have powers that reflect that?  The Geth absolutly stomp the QFE since everything but troopers have shields.

She's cute, she's got the jiggly bum bum, you date her a few times.  Then she gets dumped for someone more practical and never gets taken home to meet your mother.  Single QFE looking for love.

this is probably the best post I've read on asking the Developers for a Buff on a character class.

Very Well Done

Tyeme Downs wrote...
She's cute, she's got the jiggly bum bum, you date her a few times. 
Then she gets dumped for someone more practical and never gets taken
home to meet your mother.  Single QFE looking for love.

*ahem* wow:whistle:

[Atheosis]

DarkerCompanion wrote...

I'd like to point out that Tac Scan can do everything that Cryo Blast does, except fully freeze unprotected targets and cause cryo explosions. And everything else it does, it does soooo much better.

And what's really funny is a lot of people don't really like Tactical Scan that much.

[astheoceansblue]

Incinerate is primarily used as as primer or detonator with other powers or ammo types. It's got low CD, good AoE, and so can be spammed for its purpose.

If you spec it for single target use or to use alone, it's not so good.

Overall though, it's one of my favourite powers.

[Tortugueta]

DarkerCompanion wrote...
I'd like to point out that Tac Scan can do everything that Cryo Blast does, except fully freeze unprotected targets and cause cryo explosions. And everything else it does, it does soooo much better.

Tactical scan is a great ability, but it is not thaaaat much better than cryoblast. They represent two different approaches to the same concept: debuff enemies.

Sure, tactical scan lasts much more, but then again, the scanning animation is so long that using it in anything weaker than a Brute is wasting time. Plus, it can only affect one enemy at a time.

Cryoblast, on the other hand, can affect multiple enemies at the same time and can set up cryo explosions. Casting it is quick, so it's useful against lesser enemies and is still useful agains bosses, although admittedly less so than tactical scan due to the shorter duration).

So, while I agree that tactical scan is very good indeed (the male quarian engineer is one of my favorites and I would not dream of a build without tactical scan maxed up), I don't think it's better or worse than cryoblast. They are just different approaches to debuffing enemies and of course are played quite differently. If you try to use tactical scan as if it were cryoblast you will fail, and the other way around.

In fact, for what I've read in this thread, I get the feeling that many people are trying to play the femQuarian engineer as if it were an asari adept with tech instead of biotic powers, which is to say, trying to base the damage output of the character on the powers. That approach will only lead to failure, at least in gold.

The damage output of this chick comes from the weapon. All the builds I've seen out there for the femQuarian engie stress the fact that you should get 200% cooldown. While I would not oppose getting 200% cooldown bonus, I think this is not a priority. The priority is getting the most powerful weapon that will not hamper too much the cooldown, and in my experience 140% bonus cooldown is more than enough to get the most out of her powers, and that without taking the "increase recharge speed" evolution of any of the powers.

Keep that in mind and the femQuarian engie is great in any difficulty.

[DarkerCompanion]

Tortugueta wrote...

Tactical scan is a great ability, but it is not thaaaat much better than cryoblast. They represent two different approaches to the same concept: debuff enemies.

I entirely disagree with this assessment.

For instance, you claim the animation is long; it is somewhat noticable, but not significantly long. However, you can do it FROM COVER, to enemies IN COVER, and its undodgeable. Cryo Blast cannot be cast while behind cover, has travel time and can be dodged; particularly on Gold, and the odds of curving around cover are as inconsistant as any projectile power.

I will concede that Cryo Blast can effect multiple targets, even in the same cast; however, its duration is so pitifully short that by the time you've cast it on a second target, the first is almost thawed, so thats not even practical. The Radius upgrade for multi targets is nice, but its on the same evo as the extended duration, meaning you get 4.8 seconds of freeze on your targets.

Furthermore, you indicate that the fQuarian should be used as a weapon damage based character, relying on Cryo Blast as a damage debuff. This is another area where Tac Scan is superior. First, it lasts significantly long, while Cryo Blast will require CONSTANT reapplication, which prevents Incinerate spam. The chances for continued dodges is a serious threat as well. Tac Scan can spec for as much as 32% weapon damage and 25% headshot damage, while Cryo Blast is only 25%, and only at rank 6, while TacScan has serious damage bonuses at even rank 1. Other alternatives include Proxy Mine with its 20% damage buff at rank 5 (to Cryo Blast's 10% at Rank 5), with not only a longer duration, but damage dealing potential and a much easier time hitting targets (plus better radius!). Its also found on classes with superior weapon handling potential (Sala/Geth Infils and Turian Soldier), meaning that 20% damage bonus will count for a LOT more from the high weapon damage which the Quarian just can't match.

Even Warp is capable of 15% damage debuff at level 5, with DoT, a longer duration, and being found on classes which are just not so seriously handicapped by their powers (H. Sentinel, A. Adept, T. Sentinel). In fact, the Turian Sentinel is an example of someone who can do the job of a Quarian better. More tanky, similar damage debuff potential, better tech powers, but better with weapons.

Your explanation of how to use the fQuarian Engineer is logical, and I am not saying its not useable; but in this area, it is outperformed by a variety of classes, both those with higher weapon damage AND better powers.

[Eire Icon]

DarkerCompanion wrote...

My issue with improving the synergy is that it doesn't actually improve cryo! It improves a combo, which is only usable by one class in the game. However, what about the Human Infiltrator? While this thread is about the fQuarian, this is a firm example of why the power itself needs an inherent buff, and not just a specific combo improvement. I also dislike it severely when people say Cryo isn't bad because of its Incinerate combo. That doesn't help the Human Infiltrator one bit. But then they say the Infiltrator doesn't need a buff because he has Tactical Cloak, but honestly, how often do HI's show up in Gold lobbies?.

I have to to hold my hands up and say I don't think I have played as a Human Infiltrator since day 1 of the demo!, that in itself does say something though. I do agree with you 100% however that as a stand alone power Cryo is not even a poor relation of other powers, it does need a radical overhaul. Now that you mention it Human Infiltrator never even pops into my mind, its as if I've forgotten the class exists. I can't remember the last time I've seen it in any lobbies, Gold, Silver or Bronze.

DarkerCompanion wrote...
Truly though, I think its the fQuarians lack of shield stripping which truly hurts her. She is the only Engineer with absolutely no anti-shields power. Furthermore, as an additional punishment for that, since she has no Shock based powers, it also means she has no insta-travel powers, only projectile powers, so she is more subject to enemy dodge than the other Engineers.
.

This I agree with 100% and it really did surprise me when the demo came out that a Quarian Engineer seemed more suited to fighting Reapers then Geth !

For stripping shields and barriers they are completely dependent on either consumables or their squadmates. When I ready up I have this permanent vision of Admiral Hackett looking perplexed saying "So what kind of Engineer are you exactly" ?

DarkerCompanion wrote...
I think Cryo needs a SIGNIFICANT duration increase; as it stands, its only 6 seconds, with a delay upon targetting. I'd say 10 seconds at least, with an inherent damage debuff at level one, rather than requiring the high ranks to unlock. Also, the slowdown should be increased, as its not nearly strong enough, and the Slowdown evo conflicts with the damage evo. I've never seen a power where every single evolution is so necessary for the power to actually viable as in the case with Cryo Blast.

I'd like to point out that Tac Scan can do everything that Cryo Blast does, except fully freeze unprotected targets and cause cryo explosions. And everything else it does, it does soooo much better.

Again I agree and I think your point on the Human Infiltrator feeds into this. A major buff on Cryo is not going unbalance anything as the classes that have it (Am I correct in saying QE and HI only ??) are majorly underpowered

I would like to see Cryo as a "Go to" power like Energy Drain, Reave or even Stasis, rather then the afterthought it currently is.

Having said all that I do believe there should a stronger synergy with Incinerate then there currently is. I saw the comment on a previous post that the QE "does its damage with its gun", True or not to me this just dosen't sit well as an Engineer is not a Soldier/Infiltrator, they are a support class who should be contributing through their powers (or maybe I'm just being selfish because its how I like to play !)
Unfortunately the Quarian Male Engineer is vastly superior to his female counterpart. Yes Tac Scan dosen't freeze grunts, but lets face it, its seldom you need to freeze them. If there in a group well then yes, a cryo explosion is handy, but thats situational. If they're on their own, freezing them just wastes time, shooting them in the head or incinerate is quicker

Modifié par Eire Icon, 14 juin 2012 - 12:06 .

[DarkerCompanion]

Eire Icon wrote...

Again I agree and I think your point on the Human Infiltrator feeds into this. A major buff on Cryo is not going unbalance anything as the classes that have it (Am I correct in saying QE and HI only ??) are majorly underpowered

I would like to see Cryo as a "Go to" power like Energy Drain, Reave or even Stasis, rather then the afterthough it currently is.

Having said all that I do believe there should a stronger synergy with Incinerate then there currently is. I saw the comment on a previous post that the QE "does its damage with its gun", True or not to me this just dosen't sit well as an Engineer is not a Soldier/Infiltrator, they are a support cast who should be contributing through their powers (or maybe I'm just being selfish because its how I like to play !)
Unfortunately the Quarian Male Engineer is vastly superior to his female counterpart. Yes Tac Scan dosen't freeze grunts, but lets face it, its seldom you need to freeze them. If there in a group well then yes, a cryo explosion is handy, but thats situational. If they're on their own, freezing them just wastes time, shooting them in the head or incinerate is quicker

You are correct; the Quarian Engineer and Human Infiltrator are the only ones that have it. They are also the least used of their respective classes.

I'm afraid Cryo will never be the go to power, partly because it does NO damage, and partly because it doesn't provide significant effect on shielded/armored targets. It could though.

The "Quarian Engineers are gun users with a debuff" isn't something that was ever written down as the intended build of the class. This is what happens when a handful of resourceful players find SOMETHING good about a bad class, and take it to its full potential. You end up with a tiny aspect of the class being played as the way and the only way, even though it may be entirely counter-intuitive. In this case, it is turning a tech spam class into a weapon damage class to play off of a rank 5/6 damage debuff available on one move.

There is a precedent for this; its called Proximity Mine. Proximity Mine is a slow cooldown power with only moderate damage potential, which I might add, makes for a BAD proximity mine. However, the power is now beloved and used to death as a sort of instant-impact concussive shot because people realized it has a rank 5 damage debuff. I guarantee you, if it did not have that debuff, almost no one would use it. I've seen threads about its other rank 5 evo (a slowdown effect which actually applies chill animations, ironically) and half the responses just said "why bother? The only reason to take PM is for the damage debuff". In my opinion, its a sign of poor balance when a power is exploited and used only for a minor side benefit; if you took away that minor side benefit, the entire meta-game developing around it would collapse, and it would be almost never used.

Solidly designed powers rarely have such one-sided potential. And this applies to classes as well. Its especially bad when a single rank 5 Evo has a significant impact on the entire worth of a whole class (Proxy's rank 5 damage debuff on Turian Soldiers is a good example). In this case, if you were, for some reason, to remove the damage debuff on Cryo Blast, the entire Gunslinging Quarian build would disintegrate, as it would be, at best, an inferior Stasis Asari.

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Rifneno wrote...

Banshees will love you long time.

That's a lie. They hug you once and then drop you.

[IronRush]

Great news!
Quarian Turret and Cryo need serious buff (on cryo case, fix).

[GGW KillerTiger]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

We are looking at the Female Quarian for next week's balance changes

Took you far too long enough ....

[ParthianShotX]

Eire Icon wrote...

QFE is prob my favourite class to play but I wouldn't even attempt to bring her onto Gold, which is a shame because the Gold lobbies need freshening up

I absolutely love my QFE.  One of the classes I got the hang of rapidly and usually perform the best with at the end of the day.

[ParthianShotX]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Banshees will love you long time.

That's a lie. They hug you once and then drop you.

Nice.