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[MegaSovereign]

Valmarn wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Some questions:
Why track the systems with Reapers inside, if you're just sending the energy wave throughout the galaxy indiscriminately?

It could be specific to the Control and Destroy functionality. Only in the Synthesis ending do we know that the Crucible's energy targets everything.

But even in the Destroy ending, the energy still goes to every relay. While it's not impossible for there to be Reapers in every star cluster, it's highly unlikely that there would be any in the Hourglass Nebula by the end of the game, since the Citadel is moved to Sol.

At the very least it would have been nice for the Destroy and Control endings to show the beam skipping some of the relays, simply to indicate that it was only targetting the Reapers. Still, that might have only led to confusion with some players who noticed that some relays were getting missed so, perhaps it's for the best that the movies mostly only differ color.

It hits every relay, but not every system has a relay.

It'd be a waste of energy for the Crucible to target a system with no Reapers.

[ABCoLD]

Valmarn wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Some questions:
Why track the systems with Reapers inside, if you're just sending the energy wave throughout the galaxy indiscriminately?

It could be specific to the Control and Destroy functionality. Only in the Synthesis ending do we know that the Crucible's energy targets everything.

But even in the Destroy ending, the energy still goes to every relay. While it's not impossible for there to be Reapers in every star cluster, it's highly unlikely that there would be any in the Hourglass Nebula by the end of the game, since the Citadel is moved to Sol.

At the very least it would have been nice for the Destroy and Control endings to show the beam skipping some of the relays, simply to indicate that it was only targetting the Reapers. Still, that might have only led to confusion with some players who noticed that some relays were getting missed so, perhaps it's for the best that the movies mostly only differ color.

If it makes you feel better, the Reapers likely left some destroyers in the Hourglass Nebula to interdict refugee ship and other craft still trying to escape to the safety of the Citadel.

[ABCoLD]

MegaSovereign wrote...

It hits every relay, but not every system has a relay. 

It'd be a waste of energy for the Crucible to target a system with no Reapers.

Not what he was complaining about, also not supported by in game evidence.

[Valmarn]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Valmarn wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Some questions:
Why track the systems with Reapers inside, if you're just sending the energy wave throughout the galaxy indiscriminately?

It could be specific to the Control and Destroy functionality. Only in the Synthesis ending do we know that the Crucible's energy targets everything.

But even in the Destroy ending, the energy still goes to every relay. While it's not impossible for there to be Reapers in every star cluster, it's highly unlikely that there would be any in the Hourglass Nebula by the end of the game, since the Citadel is moved to Sol.

At the very least it would have been nice for the Destroy and Control endings to show the beam skipping some of the relays, simply to indicate that it was only targetting the Reapers. Still, that might have only led to confusion with some players who noticed that some relays were getting missed so, perhaps it's for the best that the movies mostly only differ color.

It hits every relay, but not every system has a relay.

It'd be a waste of energy for the Crucible to target a system with no Reapers.

I know not every solar system has a relay; that's why I said "star cluster" in the first paragraph: "While it's not impossible for there to be Reapers in every star cluster..."

[SirLugash]

Good summary on your part, MegaSovereign.
Though I believe that the Crucible is what the Catalyst says it is, little more than a power source.
From what I understand is that the Crucible is not targeting through the Citadel, but the Citadel is targeting with the Crucible just powering it.
Even though it might sound similar, it is not.
The first one would mean that the Crucible is the active part in dealing with the Reapers, which I don't believe hence it's just a power source.
The Citadel is taking care of the Reapers, with energy provided from the Crucible.
That's why me make the decision on the Citadel and not on the Crucible.

[MegaSovereign]

SirLugash wrote...

Good summary on your part, MegaSovereign.
Though I believe that the Crucible is what the Catalyst says it is, little more than a power source.
From what I understand is that the Crucible is not targeting through the Citadel, but the Citadel is targeting with the Crucible just powering it.
Even though it might sound similar, it is not.
The first one would mean that the Crucible is the active part in dealing with the Reapers, which I don't believe hence it's just a power source.
The Citadel is taking care of the Reapers, with energy provided from the Crucible.
That's why me make the decision on the Citadel and not on the Crucible.

Well its a crucial part of the mechanism. The Catalyst over-simplified what the Crucible is in relation to the rest of the mechanism.

A TLDR version of this thread would be that the Crucible is a source that uses the Citadel to transfer energy accross the Mass Relay network.

Thanks for posting, btw.

[ABCoLD]

The interesting thing that you have to note is that each Relay fires two pulses. The first relay pulse is a slow moving wave that accelerates that delivers the energy wave to the local cluster. The second is when the Mass Relay fires to 'send it on down the line.' What this means is that the Relay discharges and then destroys itself generating enough energy to send the pulse to the next Relay. So yeah, every relay gets a dose of it.

[MegaSovereign]

ABCoLD wrote...

The interesting thing that you have to note is that each Relay fires two pulses. The first relay pulse is a slow moving wave that accelerates that delivers the energy wave to the local cluster. The second is when the Mass Relay fires to 'send it on down the line.' What this means is that the Relay discharges and then destroys itself generating enough energy to send the pulse to the next Relay. So yeah, every relay gets a dose of it.

In the beginning of the Destroy epilogue, you can see a relay that still has the rings intact.

I wonder if the Crucible's energy affects each Relay differently. Perhaps it has to do with how much energy each Relay receives.  The last few relays to receive the Crucible's energy could be less damaged because there would naturally be less energy at the end of the firing cycle.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 26 novembre 2012 - 04:38 .

[ABCoLD]

MegaSovereign wrote...

ABCoLD wrote...

The interesting thing that you have to note is that each Relay fires two pulses. The first relay pulse is a slow moving wave that accelerates that delivers the energy wave to the local cluster. The second is when the Mass Relay fires to 'send it on down the line.' What this means is that the Relay discharges and then destroys itself generating enough energy to send the pulse to the next Relay. So yeah, every relay gets a dose of it.

In the beginning of the Destroy epilogue, you can see a relay that still has the rings intact.

I wonder if the Crucible's energy affects each Relay differently. Perhaps it has to do with how much energy each Relay receives.  The last few relays to receive the Crucible's energy could be less damaged because there would naturally be less energy at the end of the firing cycle.

One of the updates to the EC was varying the damage to the Relays depending on your EMS.  In the best case scenario only the rings are blown out.  Presumably it's 'easy' to fix them.

[ABCoLD]

Also I just finished my perfect Insanity playthrough and noticed that the Catalyst didn't say that all AIs would be wiped. He just said advanced technology or something like that...

[MegaSovereign]

ABCoLD wrote...

Also I just finished my perfect Insanity playthrough and noticed that the Catalyst didn't say that all AIs would be wiped. He just said advanced technology or something like that...

He says synthetics will be "targetted." I think Bioware intentionally made it more vague, which is ironic because the EC was suppose to provide clarity.


It makes sense though. The Destroy+ ending only seems to destroy advanced AIs. Even Kasumi's greybox was intact in the epilogue.

How the Crucible differentiates between VI programs and full-fledged AIs is still uncertain. It could be that anything with Reaper code gets wiped out.

[ABCoLD]

Except that would require an energy pulse to read computer code and selectively delete it. I half suspect that it affects quantum computing devices, but that's another can of worms. Of course it would also mean that Geth are safe.

[Davik Kang]

MegaSovereign wrote...
A TLDR version of this thread would be that the Crucible is a source that uses the Citadel to transfer energy accross the Mass Relay network.

Yes I think that summarises it quite well.  The Crucible does seem to have some targeting systems built in... however, from memory, I think all the other adjustements are to do with energy and computatinal power.

Exactly how much of the end choices come form the Crucible and how much they are generated by the Citadel is hard to determine.  The Crucible, upon docking, directs an energy beam into the Citadel, but at that point does nothing more.

In the final scene (which tbh I think is a hallucination), we see a tube somewhat connected to the right-hand side of the device that connects to the Crucible.  On the left we see some kind of electronic connection, with smaller electrical energy beams bunning down, and four handles on the pour connection points.

Shooting the tube begins Destroy.  Is it something getting in the way of Crucible functionality?  It seems odd to break something in order for it to work.  Why is it there, and if it's designed to obstruct the Crucible or other device, why is it exposed and so easily breakable?

Grabbing the handles begins Control.  The handles seem superfluous if we look at the ending as it happens, because the 'controller' is immediately disintegrated.

Beginning Synthesis involves simply leaping into the Crucible beam.  Both Destroy and Control begin some kind of enormous explosion as a reaction.

I think Child says something along the lines of "adding [your] energy to the Crucible".  Is adding energy to the Crucible what we are doing in each case?  Explosion adds destrouctive energy, handles add - what? mental energy?  electrical energy?  Middle adds organic energy, DNA energy, something like that...

As the explosion seems sonmethat unconstrained in both Destroy and Synthesis, I wonder if the purpose of the contraption atop the Citadel is basically control of the Reapers.  This would make sense given that Child says he controls the Reapers, and resides here.

However (this is getting OT now) I do think the whole scene is an illusion.  I think the choices are more symbolic more than anything.  Maybe there are four handles because the Child is really a Keeper?

In short, I think understanding the Crucible could require understanding the Citadel too, which hopefully we'll learn more about in upcoming DLCs.

[ABCoLD]

Davik, sadly it's bad writing and bad design. This thread is really about trying to make something utterly nonsensical make sense.

After all, if you're charged with preserving life and have been doing so for billions of years, why would you point over to the corner and go, "Oh, btw, shoot that and you blow up all the life forms I've been preserving. Don't have an opinion on if you should or not, but it's an option!"

Put another way:  There isn't a deeper or hidden meaning, because they're not good enough to put that in there.  And if they did, structuring the story this way is a giant middle finger in any event.

Modifié par ABCoLD, 26 novembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[Davik Kang]

ABCoLD wrote...
Except that would require an energy pulse to read computer code and selectively delete it. I half suspect that it affects quantum computing devices, but that's another can of worms. Of course it would also mean that Geth are safe.

I think Legion's sacrifice involved uplifting the Geth minds with Reaper code?

MegaSovereign wrote...
Even Kasumi's greybox was intact in the epilogue. 

Was it?  It could have been wiped... or even just temporarily switched off... I think the brain damage stuff only happens if a greybox is removed by surgery - and even then, only sometimes.

I figured that the blast would 'knock out' sysnthetic machinery, meaning non-sentient machines could be easily repaired (in the High EMS scenario), but living matter would be 'reset' and so the individual personality resident before would be lost.  This is just how I make sense of it though, I can't prove it.

[MegaSovereign]

Yea don't get me started on having to shoot the power conduit in order to activate it. Whatever symbolism they were trying to display damaged the psuedo-science of the Crucible.

I created this thread because it bothered me how vague the entire concept of the crucible had been. One thing I want to address, but can't, is the fact that the Crucible's energy obliterates husks but only "switches off" Reapers. I'm curious as to why that is.

[MegaSovereign]

I think Legion's sacrifice involved uplifting the Geth minds with Reaper code?

Yes but they're still networked AIs. The Geth being wiped out implies that the Crucible actually targeted their virtual consensus. That actually makes sense since the Reapers themselves are networked AIs. Except they're "free of all weaknesses" which probably means they can operate just fine individually. Maybe the Reaper code frees the Geth of those "weaknesses."

[KingZayd]

MegaSovereign wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Some questions:
Why track the systems with Reapers inside, if you're just sending the energy wave throughout the galaxy indiscriminately?

It could be specific to the Control and Destroy functionality. Only in the Synthesis ending do we know that the Crucible's energy targets everything.

If the Citadel carries out most of the function of the Crucible, and the Crucible is basically a power source, what was the point of the Crucible before it was adapted to be used with the Citadel?

It's implied that the design had been changed to incorporate the Citadel. The Crucible could have originally been designed to handle targetting and be used as its own power source. Apparently it wasn't very efficient. The Citadel is the center of the mass relay network, so it's a lot more efficient to integrate that into the overall design. Also, I think Vendetta (?) said that it amplified its energy, so it could have been for that reason as well.

We see the wave go everywhere. It doesn't necessarily affect everything it touches, but it does seem to touch everything.

Vendetta suggested that the Citadel might be used to power the Crucible. The Starchild tells us that the Crucible is basically just a power source. This suggests the Crucible is used to give the Citadel extra power.

[ABCoLD]

Davik Kang wrote...

ABCoLD wrote...
Except that would require an energy pulse to read computer code and selectively delete it. I half suspect that it affects quantum computing devices, but that's another can of worms. Of course it would also mean that Geth are safe.

I think Legion's sacrifice involved uplifting the Geth minds with Reaper code?

Yes it did, but an energy pulse that can wipe computer programs of a specific type while leaving others untouched is space magic.  At least if it targeted only certain types of processors that would make sense.  And the Geth don't need quantum processors to be AIs... they're just really advanced.

[ABCoLD]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Yea don't get me started on having to shoot the power conduit in order to activate it. Whatever symbolism they were trying to display damaged the psuedo-science of the Crucible.

I created this thread because it bothered me how vague the entire concept of the crucible had been. One thing I want to address, but can't, is the fact that the Crucible's energy obliterates husks but only "switches off" Reapers. I'm curious as to why that is.

This makes sense if you think that the wave actively obliterates Reaper tech, because then the superstructure of the Reaper, which is just fancy metal would be fine.  But Husks are actively re-written.  Perhaps the destruction of the tech causes a temporary superheating of the processors that causes the rest of the husk to incinerate?

[SirLugash]

MegaSovereign wrote...
A TLDR version of this thread would be that the Crucible is a source that uses the Citadel to transfer energy accross the Mass Relay network.

And that's the point I tried to make.
I don't think that the Crucible used the Citadel but the Citadel used the Crucible.
As I said, we make our choice on the Citadel and after making the choice, the Crucible gets activated by the Citadel which controld the energy spread.

At least that's how I interpret this ^^

€dit: As a side note: If the Crucible was responsible for controlling the energy wave (and therefore would include the 3 versions of it), it would mean that the Crucible design was modified in past cycles to include Control and Synthesis and I don't really think that any race facing the Reapers would do that.
Since the Catalyst is focused to achieve Synthesis, and the choices are on the Citadel, I'm pretty sure that the Citadel is responsible for the energy spread.

Modifié par SirLugash, 26 novembre 2012 - 11:02 .

[MegaSovereign]

SirLugash wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...
A TLDR version of this thread would be that the Crucible is a source that uses the Citadel to transfer energy accross the Mass Relay network.

And that's the point I tried to make.
I don't think that the Crucible used the Citadel but the Citadel used the Crucible.
As I said, we make our choice on the Citadel and after making the choice, the Crucible gets activated by the Citadel which controld the energy spread.

At least that's how I interpret this ^^

€dit: As a side note: If the Crucible was responsible for controlling the energy wave (and therefore would include the 3 versions of it), it would mean that the Crucible design was modified in past cycles to include Control and Synthesis and I don't really think that any race facing the Reapers would do that.
Since the Catalyst is focused to achieve Synthesis, and the choices are on the Citadel, I'm pretty sure that the Citadel is responsible for the energy spread.

Well we know from the narrative that there had always been a war between the factions of the previous cycle over Control vs Destroy. Perhaps the "indoctrinated" faction added the Control functionality. Or maybe a previous cycle who had been entirely dependent on synthetic technology and didn't want to risk the Crucible backfiring added it.

Synthesis, IMO, looks like a modified version of the Destroy ending. If you notice in the cutscenes, the Crucible in the Destroy ending fires almost identically to the Synthesis ending (except for the obvious difference in color). The reason I think that Synthesis is not part of the original design is because the Catalyst seems to have made it sound like the perfect solution to its problem. If the Reapers knew about the Synthesis functionality, they probably would have built it themselves.

[Heimdall]

I always thought of the Citadel as a transmission vector for the effect of the Crucible.

[SirLugash]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Well we know from the narrative that there had always been a war between the factions of the previous cycle over Control vs Destroy. Perhaps the "indoctrinated" faction added the Control functionality. Or maybe a previous cycle who had been entirely dependent on synthetic technology and didn't want to risk the Crucible backfiring added it.

Synthesis, IMO, looks like a modified version of the Destroy ending. If you notice in the cutscenes, the Crucible in the Destroy ending fires almost identically to the Synthesis ending (except for the obvious difference in color). The reason I think that Synthesis is not part of the original design is because the Catalyst seems to have made it sound like the perfect solution to its problem. If the Reapers knew about the Synthesis functionality, they probably would have built it themselves.

I agree with you on the war with indoctrinated agents, even though I don't really think they were powerful enough to actually implement something into the Crucible (I'd really like to know where the Crucible originates from btw, my best guess would be the Leviathans themselves).
If Reaper-controlled units were to find out about it I'm sure they'd rather destroy it completely.
But of course, I can't say for sure.

I don't think that Synthesis is a modified version of Destroy since it does something completely different (Destroy fries circuits basically, Synthesis merging Organics and Synthetics).

For the last part I feel kind of dumb to repeat it again as you most likely understood what I'm trying to say:
IMO, the choices, Control, Synthesis and Destroy, are not embedded in the Crucible (and therefore not part of it's design= but on the Citadel.
It would make the most sense since all 3 outcomes could end the Catalyst's job once the preconditions are set.
Also, as said before, they are located on Citadel which is the home of the Catalyst.

[MegaSovereign]

I don't think the choices are on the Citadel. It may appear like it at first since they are attached to the platforms the Catalyst brings up, but if you look closely they're all part of the Crucible.