126 réponses à ce sujet

[SirLugash]

How so ?
If you look around, you see the clams from the Crucible connected to the Citadel.
In front of you is the "energy connection point" between the Crucible above you and the Citadel beneath you.
If you look up, you clearly see the Crucible above you.
Therefore, the choices are, just as yourself, on the bottom side of the Presidium Tower on the Citadel.

Modifié par SirLugash, 27 novembre 2012 - 12:47 .

[JShepppp]

I like this.

[Davik Kang]

 

ABCoLD wrote...

Davik, sadly it's bad writing and bad design. This thread is really about trying to make something utterly nonsensical make sense.

After all, if you're charged with preserving life and have been doing so for billions of years, why would you point over to the corner and go, "Oh, btw, shoot that and you blow up all the life forms I've been preserving. Don't have an opinion on if you should or not, but it's an option!"

Put another way:  There isn't a deeper or hidden meaning, because they're not good enough to put that in there.  And if they did, structuring the story this way is a giant middle finger in any event.

I didn't see this yesterday, but no it's not bad writing and bad design.  I didn't realise this was yet another bad writing thread disguised as something else.  The number of people who seem to think that BW did an excellent job of designing their games, and then for no apparent reason, decided to sabotage their entire series by putting on their "bad writing" hats everytime they made adjustments to the ending is absolutely astounding.

The Child doesn't point to the corner.  The Child says "it is now in your power to destroy us" and details the level of ensuing devastation.  He in no way explains how to destroy the Reapers.  He is simply unable to stop you doing so.  You already know how to destroy the Reapers.  

Shepard is hallucinating, making sense of the information around her in a dream-like state.  Some of it appears to come from the child, others is the form of the objects she sees around her.  She's standing in space, talking to a floating ghost child you looks like the human child from her dreams.  I guess you think that the Reaper overlord just happens to look like a human child right?  And that Shepard had a synthetic upgrade installed that allows her to stand in outer space, on top of the Citadel near the connection point of the new giant space battery, without need for an external pressure suit?

"They're not good enough"?  You know, I am tired of this conversation now.  Becuase something confused and unsettled you, you immediately switch off your brain and go "la la la, these guys are idiots, what were they thinking, give me a boss battle damn it".

Video game story writers are typically lazy, or their stories are minimised to compensate for the Video Game format.  Bioware have CONSTANTLY proves themselves capable - exceptional, even - at making an excellent story form the heart of an excellent videogame.  And now they're "not good enough"?  Yeah.  Nice.

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't think the choices are on the Citadel. It may appear like it at first since they are attached to the platforms the Catalyst brings up, but if you look closely they're all part of the Crucible.

They clearly are not part of the crucible.  They are part of a six-pronged structure at the top of the central structure on the Citadel, whatever it is.  (Presidium tower?  No.  Look in ME1, the tower is big but nowhere near big enough to be visible from space like that.

The end-point of the Crucible is a four-sided opening, which we can see both from the end scene, and from the EMS-based cutscene after you open the Citadel arms.  It is nothing like the aforementioned six-pronged structure.  There is a diagram online somewhere trying to claim that the end-point of the Crucible 'dropped' the contraptioon onto the Citadel, but again it's trying to fit a four-sided shape onto a six-sided shape.

Crucible is power source with targeting systems.  Ending choice contraption has nothing to do with the Crucible, toher than being its connecting point.

I'm taking a break from these forums (to avoid Omega spoilers) so I won't be able to respond to any replies, but seeing as this thread is becoming yet another ENDING SUCKS LOL thread, I can't say I'm that bothered.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 27 novembre 2012 - 03:37 .

[ABCoLD]

Davik Kang wrote...

 

ABCoLD wrote...

Davik, sadly it's bad writing and bad design. This thread is really about trying to make something utterly nonsensical make sense.

After all, if you're charged with preserving life and have been doing so for billions of years, why would you point over to the corner and go, "Oh, btw, shoot that and you blow up all the life forms I've been preserving. Don't have an opinion on if you should or not, but it's an option!"

Put another way:  There isn't a deeper or hidden meaning, because they're not good enough to put that in there.  And if they did, structuring the story this way is a giant middle finger in any event.

I didn't see this yesterday, but no it's not bad writing and bad design.  I didn't realise this was yet another bad writing thread disguised as something else.  The number of people who seem to think that BW did an excellent job of designing their games, and then for no apparent reason, decided to sabotage their entire series by putting on their "bad writing" hats everytime they made adjustments to the ending is absolutely astounding.

The Child doesn't point to the corner.  The Child says "it is now in your power to destroy us" and details the level of ensuing devastation.  He in no way explains how to destroy the Reapers.  He is simply unable to stop you doing so.  You already know how to destroy the Reapers.  

Shepard is hallucinating, making sense of the information around her in a dream-like state.  Some of it appears to come from the child, others is the form of the objects she sees around her.  She's standing in space, talking to a floating ghost child you looks like the human child from her dreams.  I guess you think that the Reaper overlord just happens to look like a human child right?  And that Shepard had a synthetic upgrade installed that allows her to stand in outer space, on top of the Citadel near the connection point of the new giant space battery, without need for an external pressure suit?

"They're not good enough"?  You know, I am tired of this conversation now.  Becuase something confused and unsettled you, you immediately switch off your brain and go "la la la, these guys are idiots, what were they thinking, give me a boss battle damn it".

Video game story writers are typically lazy, or their stories are minimised to compensate for the Video Game format.  Bioware have CONSTANTLY proves themselves capable - exceptional, even - at making an excellent story form the heart of an excellent videogame.  And now they're "not good enough"?  Yeah.  Nice.

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't think the choices are on the Citadel. It may appear like it at first since they are attached to the platforms the Catalyst brings up, but if you look closely they're all part of the Crucible.

They clearly are not part of the crucible.  They are part of a six-pronged structure at the top of the central structure on the Citadel, whatever it is.  (Presidium tower?  No.  Look in ME1, the tower is big but nowhere near big enough to be visible from space like that.

The end-point of the Crucible is a four-sided opening, which we can see both from the end scene, and from the EMS-based cutscene after you open the Citadel arms.  It is nothing like the aforementioned six-pronged structure.  There is a diagram online somewhere trying to claim that the end-point of the Crucible 'dropped' the contraptioon onto the Citadel, but again it's trying to fit a four-sided shape onto a six-sided shape.

Crucible is power source with targeting systems.  Ending choice contraption has nothing to do with the Crucible, toher than being its connecting point.

I'm taking a break from these forums (to avoid Omega spoilers) so I won't be able to respond to any replies, but seeing as this thread is becoming yet another ENDING SUCKS LOL thread, I can't say I'm that bothered.

Well that was a lot of information to digest but I think it deserves a fair response.  I've pointed out what I want to respond to, just so it's easy to reference for other people.

1.  This is not another bad writing thread disguised as something else.  This is a thread for defining the nebulous nature of the Crucible and Catalyst interaction as well as can be reasonably inferred from in game information.  This means however that there are several gaps in our knowledge as the writers intentionally or not did not provide some information.
2.  More to the point of 'He can't stop you.'  The AI brought you to the point where you could stop him.  Shepard was lying on the floor dying of blood loss.  What's more, the pipe or cooling system or what have you is completely inaccessible and impossible to shoot until he willingly raises a walkway to it.  If he had not wanted Shepard to destroy the Reapers he could have either lied about the function of the pipe, not raised the platform, not explained the pipe or simply not brought Shepard to the juncture of the two facilities.
3.  This is a huge stretch.  It's also amazing that you could claim this and then go 'lol no, your interpretation is crap.'
4.  I don't get that either, I can't find any other tech explanation for it, other than that Leviathans could tap into a person's psyche as well, so perhaps this was their interface for their computer systems, some sort of direct neural link.  Pure speculation, there is no good answer.
5. It's either the top of the Citadel or the bottom, depending on your perspective, I always considered it the bottom.  As for an explanation... Joker's breathing mask and the kinetic barrier on the cockpit of the Normandy SR-1 during its destruction in ME2 show that they've either retconned how Mass Effect barriers work or the writers simply play loosey goosey with reality sometimes. Also see:  Every character who wears a face mask and doesn't have their eyeballs pop out and their ears bleed in hard vaccuum.
6.  This video clearly shows the docking of the Crucible.  It might not be the complete docking sequence, but it is the part that we all can see.  It clearly establishes an intended and visually distinctive point for the final confrontation later.  On another note, the Citadel's design has changed from ME1 to ME3.   This is not a re-write so much as their original design didn't do what they wanted so they just shifted it so that it did.

In the end what it amounts to is that there is a possibility that things were a hallucination or a dream and all will be revealed to us at a later date.  We also have several creators on record as saying it is not a hallucination, a dream, or a form of indoctrination.  I can't make you take anything from their writing other than what you want.  

[MegaSovereign]

Davik Kang wrote...

 

ABCoLD wrote...

Davik, sadly it's bad writing and bad design. This thread is really about trying to make something utterly nonsensical make sense.

After all, if you're charged with preserving life and have been doing so for billions of years, why would you point over to the corner and go, "Oh, btw, shoot that and you blow up all the life forms I've been preserving. Don't have an opinion on if you should or not, but it's an option!"

Put another way:  There isn't a deeper or hidden meaning, because they're not good enough to put that in there.  And if they did, structuring the story this way is a giant middle finger in any event.

I didn't see this yesterday, but no it's not bad writing and bad design.  I didn't realise this was yet another bad writing thread disguised as something else.  The number of people who seem to think that BW did an excellent job of designing their games, and then for no apparent reason, decided to sabotage their entire series by putting on their "bad writing" hats everytime they made adjustments to the ending is absolutely astounding.

The Child doesn't point to the corner.  The Child says "it is now in your power to destroy us" and details the level of ensuing devastation.  He in no way explains how to destroy the Reapers.  He is simply unable to stop you doing so.  You already know how to destroy the Reapers.  

Shepard is hallucinating, making sense of the information around her in a dream-like state.  Some of it appears to come from the child, others is the form of the objects she sees around her.  She's standing in space, talking to a floating ghost child you looks like the human child from her dreams.  I guess you think that the Reaper overlord just happens to look like a human child right?  And that Shepard had a synthetic upgrade installed that allows her to stand in outer space, on top of the Citadel near the connection point of the new giant space battery, without need for an external pressure suit?

"They're not good enough"?  You know, I am tired of this conversation now.  Becuase something confused and unsettled you, you immediately switch off your brain and go "la la la, these guys are idiots, what were they thinking, give me a boss battle damn it".

Video game story writers are typically lazy, or their stories are minimised to compensate for the Video Game format.  Bioware have CONSTANTLY proves themselves capable - exceptional, even - at making an excellent story form the heart of an excellent videogame.  And now they're "not good enough"?  Yeah.  Nice.

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't think the choices are on the Citadel. It may appear like it at first since they are attached to the platforms the Catalyst brings up, but if you look closely they're all part of the Crucible.

They clearly are not part of the crucible.  They are part of a six-pronged structure at the top of the central structure on the Citadel, whatever it is.  (Presidium tower?  No.  Look in ME1, the tower is big but nowhere near big enough to be visible from space like that.

The end-point of the Crucible is a four-sided opening, which we can see both from the end scene, and from the EMS-based cutscene after you open the Citadel arms.  It is nothing like the aforementioned six-pronged structure.  There is a diagram online somewhere trying to claim that the end-point of the Crucible 'dropped' the contraptioon onto the Citadel, but again it's trying to fit a four-sided shape onto a six-sided shape.

Crucible is power source with targeting systems.  Ending choice contraption has nothing to do with the Crucible, toher than being its connecting point.

I'm taking a break from these forums (to avoid Omega spoilers) so I won't be able to respond to any replies, but seeing as this thread is becoming yet another ENDING SUCKS LOL thread, I can't say I'm that bothered.

It's not an "ending sucks" thread. It's one of the most constructive threads since ME3 released, and that's being modest.

I just find it strange that the most powerful device in ME history has the least context given to it. I understand that it's widely contested whether the decision chamber scene is actually happening in real time. But that's really not what this thread is about.

[ABCoLD]

You wanna hear wild speculation? The Crucible originally linked to a Relay was used hijack a single relay and pulse that star cluster. (or perhaps send it to the linking cluster) Integrating the Citadel into the design allowed the wave to be transmissible to all clusters.

Mmmm, speculation.

Also it's totally immodest to say that your own thread is one of the most constructive.

[MegaSovereign]

ABCoLD wrote...

You wanna hear wild speculation? The Crucible originally linked to a Relay was used hijack a single relay and pulse that star cluster. (or perhaps send it to the linking cluster) Integrating the Citadel into the design allowed the wave to be transmissible to all clusters.

Mmmm, speculation.

Yea, that makes sense. All the Crucible would really need to do is point and shoot.

Also it's totally immodest to say that your own thread is one of the most constructive.

Perhaps. I'm proud to say that the OP reads almost like an authentic Codex entry. Confidence is no weakness .

[kal_reegar]

 a really good summary. Threads like this are the best.

my personal interpretation of the crucible:

- it is truly "little more than a rude power source"; the crucible doesn't hack the catalyst and/or force him to help shepard -> otherwise the catalyst would be a "lying hacked AI". Almost an oxymoron

- the moment the crucible docked, it changed the variables, making the catalyst solution no longer effective (refusal ending proves it) and at the same time providing new solutions *** (old solution kapput + new solutions are both necessary consequences)-> otherwise, since the catalyst cannot be a hacked lying AI, there is no reason why the catalyst and the reapers should suddenly stop trying to kill Shepard and start "helping" him

- for some obscure reason, the catalyst/reapers can't destroy/remove/disactivate the crucible without relevant, negative consequences -> otherwise saying that "the variables have been altered" is not correct; the fact that the crucible exists and works is obviously a threat for the reapers but if the variables can be reset without damages, irrevocable statements like "my solution won't work anymore" are not justified.


***
destroy is obviously the crucible's main functionality.
i'm inclined to believe that control is a crucible's functionality as well (see prothean's faction who wanted to control the reapers)
i don't know what to think about synthesis. Could be the catalyst's "sorcery". Exploiting the citadel+crucible+shepard the choosen and ready one

[MegaSovereign]

simfamSP wrote...

No more updates? This was a really well written topic op!

If DLC adds more exposition on the Crucible then it will be updated accordingly. And thanks.

kal_reegar wrote...

 a really good summary. Threads like this are the best.

my personal interpretation of the crucible:

- it is truly "little more than a rude power source"; the crucible doesn't hack the catalyst and/or force him to help shepard -> otherwise the catalyst would be a "lying hacked AI". Almost an oxymoron

I don't take that statement too literally because if I did  then it would contradict his other statement about how the Crucible changed him and added more possibilities. If it's nothing more than an power source then those "possibilties" were always on the Citadel.

The Citadel handles the targetting and it controls what form the Crucible's energy is dispersed, but that doesn't mean that the Crucible is just one big battery.

- the moment the crucible docked, it changed the variables, making the catalyst solution no longer effective (refusal ending proves it) and at the same time providing new solutions *** (old solution kapput + new solutions are both necessary consequences)-> otherwise, since the catalyst cannot be a hacked lying AI, there is no reason why the catalyst and the reapers should suddenly stop trying to kill Shepard and start "helping" him

Yes, I agree with this interpretation. I too believe the Catalyst is helping Shepard on his own will. The AI isn't driven by power or vengenance, it has no reason to betray if Shepard can help him solve his problem.

- for some obscure reason, the catalyst/reapers can't destroy/remove/disactivate the crucible without relevant, negative consequences -> otherwise saying that "the variables have been altered" is not correct; the fact that the crucible exists and works is obviously a threat for the reapers but if the variables can be reset without damages, irrevocable statements like "my solution won't work anymore" are not justified.


***
destroy is obviously the crucible's main functionality.
i'm inclined to believe that control is a crucible's functionality as well (see prothean's faction who wanted to control the reapers)
i don't know what to think about synthesis. Could be the catalyst's "sorcery". Exploiting the citadel+crucible+shepard the choosen and ready one

My interpretation is that the Crucible's main functionality has always been Destroy, hence why the Reapers' always resisted any attempts of it deploying. That and the power conduit is not part of the Crucible's design. It's on the Citadel and it wouldn't make sense for the Crucible to be activated by shooting at a specific component. It was put in place to stop the Crucible from firing, probably part of why the other cycles could never get it to work. It's only until the Catalyst realized that his solution won't work anymore that he is open to other solutions.

The Catalyst has tried Synthesis before and has failed. We can logically infer that he probably used the Mass Relays to initiate it since it would have to be a galaxy wide transition for it to be an effective solution. So it could be that the Crucible + Shepard's energy + the Catalyst's own Synthesis formula allows for a successful Synthesis. But that's only loosely supported by the game.

[CosmicGnosis]

Excellent thread, MegaSovereign. I am impressed.

By the way, what do you think "Shepard's organic energy" actually means? I desperately need this to be explained...

[MegaSovereign]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Excellent thread, MegaSovereign. I am impressed.

By the way, what do you think "Shepard's organic energy" actually means? I desperately need this to be explained...

Probably something to do with Shepard's genetic material. He's considered an anomaly to the cycles by both Leviathans and the Reapers yet it's never fully explained why.

[kal_reegar]

[quote]MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't take that statement too literally because if I did  then it would contradict his other statement about how the Crucible changed him and added more possibilities. If it's nothing more than an power source then those "possibilties" were always on the Citadel.

The Citadel handles the targetting and it controls what form the Crucible's energy is dispersed, but that doesn't mean that the Crucible is just one big battery.
[quote]

yes, the two statements are apparentely inconsistent.

personally I prefer to interpret the other one (the crucible changed me) not too literally.

the crucible makes the catalyst's solution no longer effective + adds new solutions => variables have been altered permanently.
the fact that the crucible has changed the variables has consequently changed the catalyst, imo. The crucible changed him, yes, but indirectly. Changing the variables it has changed the catalyst's prospective, his approach to reality.

[quote]Probably something to do with Shepard's genetic material. He's considered an anomaly to the cycles by both Leviathans and the Reapers yet it's never fully explained why. [quote]

totally agree.
also quoting javik "experience is a genetic marker".
if the prohean is right, spreading shepard's genetic material around the galaxy somehow spreads also his experience... his "readiness".

[shepskisaac]

This thread should have much more pages, great compilation of information.

I would like to contribute the fact that the Crucible not only uses the Catalyst's (Citadel's) capabilities, it also directly influences/rewrites the Catalyst AI and forces it to present the capabilities of the Crucible-Citadel device. It is confirmed by the fact that the Catalyst says "the Crucible changed me" and later that he says that he is "bound by the these choices" and the fact that even Destroy is preferable to him than no choice at all. After rewrite, the Catalyst is forced to want to get the Crucible activated.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 10 janvier 2013 - 11:53 .

[MegaSovereign]

IsaacShep wrote...

This thread should have much more pages, great compilation of information.

I would like to contribute the fact that the Crucible not only uses the Catalyst's (Citadel's) capabilities, it also directly influences/rewrites the Catalyst AI and forces it to present the capabilities of the Crucible-Citadel device. It is confirmed by the fact that the Catalyst says "the Crucible changed me" and later that he says that he is "bound by the these choices" and the fact that even Destroy is preferable to him than no choice at all. After rewrite, the Catalyst is forced to want to get the Crucible activated.

Interesting. I've always done high EMS playthroughs so I've never come across this dialogue.

Also I thought low EMS locked you out of the Control ending unless you saved the Collector base. I need to re-evaluate things.

[shepskisaac]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Interesting. I've always done high EMS playthroughs so I've never come across this dialogue.

Also I thought low EMS locked you out of the Control ending unless you saved the Collector base. I need to re-evaluate things.

No wonder though, because this dialogue only appears when Synthesis is not available. I also learnt about its existance only this week. When Synthesis is available, the dialogue is cut short to present the last Synthesis choice so that's why pretty much everyone missed it.

Few people suggested on BSN in the past months that the Crucible forces the Catalyst to present the choices and get the Crucible activated (even if the choice is not what he likes) and I always thought this was a very likely scenario, already supported by the fact that he says "the Crucible changed me blah blah" and that he says during Control discussion that he would be forced to accept Shep deleting him and taking his place, but this new lines seals the deal for me.

[kal_reegar]

IsaacShep wrote...

This thread should have much more pages, great compilation of information.

I would like to contribute the fact that the Crucible not only uses the Catalyst's (Citadel's) capabilities, it also directly influences/rewrites the Catalyst AI and forces it to present the capabilities of the Crucible-Citadel device. It is confirmed by the fact that the Catalyst says "the Crucible changed me" and later that he says that he is "bound by the these choices" and the fact that even Destroy is preferable to him than no choice at all. After rewrite, the Catalyst is forced to want to get the Crucible activated.

I disagree.
On the contrary, the catalyst would be rewritten only if shepard chooses control ("I will be forced to accept it" "not if I refuse" "TRUE")

and the fact that they both are "bound"... well, shepard can refuse. And the catalyst can continue the cycle.
so, the crucible isn't really forcing anybody to do something.
Both Shepard and the catalyst mantain their free will. Simply, whatever the choice is (even refuse), they will be bound by its consequences (not by the fact of being forced to choose), and that's because the variables have been altered.

[shepskisaac]

kal_reegar wrote...

I disagree.
On the contrary, the catalyst would be rewritten only if shepard chooses control ("I will be forced to accept it" "not if I refuse" "TRUE")

He has already been rewritten when Crucible docked, he hays it himself that the Crucible changed him. There's a difference between rewritten and deleted/OVERwritten as in Control

kal_reegar wrote...

and the fact that they both are "bound"... well, shepard can refuse. And the catalyst can continue the cycle.
so, the crucible isn't really forcing anybody to do something.
Both Shepard and the catalyst mantain their free will. Simply, whatever the choice is (even refuse), they will be bound by its consequences (not by the fact of being forced to choose), and that's because the variables have been altered.

But he's not bound by consequences but by these choices. And Shepard is not bound by anything because he's not connected to the Crucible and the Crucible can't control him like it can with an AI program.

And if the Catalyst retains free will, why does he present Destroy choice to Shep? Why won't he just kill Shep, why won't he just find a new solution himself? It was his task to find a solution, if he gets destroyed he fails his task

[Wayning_Star]

IsaacShep wrote...

kal_reegar wrote...

I disagree.
On the contrary, the catalyst would be rewritten only if shepard chooses control ("I will be forced to accept it" "not if I refuse" "TRUE")

He has already been rewritten when Crucible docked, he hays it himself that the Crucible changed him. There's a difference between rewritten and deleted/OVERwritten as in Control

kal_reegar wrote...

and the fact that they both are "bound"... well, shepard can refuse. And the catalyst can continue the cycle.
so, the crucible isn't really forcing anybody to do something.
Both Shepard and the catalyst mantain their free will. Simply, whatever the choice is (even refuse), they will be bound by its consequences (not by the fact of being forced to choose), and that's because the variables have been altered.

But he's not bound by consequences but by these choices. And Shepard is not bound by anything because he's not connected to the Crucible and the Crucible can't control him like it can with an AI program.

And if the Catalyst retains free will, why does he present Destroy choice to Shep? Why won't he just kill Shep, why won't he just find a new solution himself? It was his task to find a solution, if he gets destroyed he fails his task

catalyst bound by the crucible, Shep bound by the choices menu and duty...

The Leviathan pretty much screws the pooch on 'free will'. Even in refuse, circumstances beyond Sheps ability,even 'essence' is thwarted. Life in the galaxy is expected to be of a destined origin, but intialized by chance. Everyone must ask, why is Shep destined to be in the MEU, or better yet, destined to be shackled to the choices menu?

[kal_reegar]

[quote]IsaacShep wrote...
]He has already been rewritten when Crucible docked, he hays it himself that the Crucible changed him. There's a difference between rewritten and deleted/OVERwritten as in Control

[quote]

rewritten in the sense that he now must consider the new variables? yes
rewritten in the sense that the catalyst "hacked" him? no


the crucible hacking the catalyst leads to strange scenarios.
first, the catalyst explicitly said that "the crucible is little more than a power source, RUDE but effective".
There is really little margin for interpretation here. "Little more than a rude power source".
Is he lying? Not likely. He is telling the truth about almost everything (shoot the red tube and kill me, I kill the leviathans etc), but he's lying about the crucible... a lying hacked AI?
Is he wrong? Could be, but that's a slippery slope. If we admit that he's wrong about the crucible, why not about synhtesis=good too? Or about the geths being killed? etc.

second, there is a discussion in these days " How could so many diverse cycles design a device that surpasses the technology of the Reapers? "
well, if the crucible really hacked the collective intelligence of the reapers... the crucible is a huge nonsense.
no way they can build something so advanced. And if they did, no way the catalyst can define it "a rude power source"


new informations and new variables can change a person. And an AI too. There's no need to be hacked or forced to change, there's no need of something "physical", like a brainwash or a virus or a new program...

the mere presence of a working crucible is enough to justify a change. The reapers are like fire, but now the catalyst knows that water exist and can be used.
There's no need to add another hypothetic functionality to the crucible, the "hacking".

[quote]And if the Catalyst retains free will, why does he present Destroy choice to Shep? Why won't he just kill Shep, why won't he just find a new solution himself? It was his task to find a solution, if he gets destroyed he fails his task[/quote]

because his solution won't work anymore. This the key.
if he kills Shep and the crucible is not used (which is exactly the refusal ending scenario), NEXT CYCLE WILL WIN. Refusal ending proves it.
There's nothing the catalyst can do to avoid it, and he knows it.
The variables have been altered, and his solution won't work anymore. Why can't he find a new solution himself? I don't know, probably because the reapers (or synthesis) are the only solution. He didn't find an alternative in billions of years. Now he has only 50 thousand before the inevitable defeat. 

But this cycle is exceptional, with an exceptional leader. The catalyst himself admit it, Javik too.
So, if shepard refuse both synthesis and control, for the catalyst the alternative is between letting THIS exceptional cycle win (and maybe find a new solution) or being defeated by next - probably not exceptional - cycle (and next ordinary cycle should find the solution)
The catalyst likes destroy more than refuse.

[Wayning_Star]

[quote]kal_reegar wrote...

[quote]IsaacShep wrote...
]He has already been rewritten when Crucible docked, he hays it himself that the Crucible changed him. There's a difference between rewritten and deleted/OVERwritten as in Control

[quote]

rewritten in the sense that he now must consider the new variables? yes
rewritten in the sense that the catalyst "hacked" him? no


the crucible hacking the catalyst leads to strange scenarios.
first, the catalyst explicitly said that "the crucible is little more than a power source, RUDE but effective".
There is really little margin for interpretation here. "Little more than a rude power source".
Is he lying? Not likely. He is telling the truth about almost everything (shoot the red tube and kill me, I kill the leviathans etc), but he's lying about the crucible... a lying hacked AI?
Is he wrong? Could be, but that's a slippery slope. If we admit that he's wrong about the crucible, why not about synhtesis=good too? Or about the geths being killed? etc.

second, there is a discussion in these days " How could so many diverse cycles design a device that surpasses the technology of the Reapers? "
well, if the crucible really hacked the collective intelligence of the reapers... the crucible is a huge nonsense.
no way they can build something so advanced. And if they did, no way the catalyst can define it "a rude power source"


new informations and new variables can change a person. And an AI too. There's no need to be hacked or forced to change, there's no need of something "physical", like a brainwash or a virus or a new program...

the mere presence of a working crucible is enough to justify a change. The reapers are like fire, but now the catalyst knows that water exist and can be used.
There's no need to add another hypothetic functionality to the crucible, the "hacking".



[quote]And if the Catalyst retains free will, why does he present Destroy choice to Shep? Why won't he just kill Shep, why won't he just find a new solution himself? It was his task to find a solution, if he gets destroyed he fails his task[/quote]

because his solution won't work anymore. This the key.
if he kills Shep and the crucible is not used (which is exactly the refusal ending scenario), NEXT CYCLE WILL WIN. Refusal ending proves it.
There's nothing the catalyst can do to avoid it, and he knows it.
The variables have been altered, and his solution won't work anymore. Why can't he find a new solution himself? I don't know, probably because the reapers (or synthesis) are the only solution. He didn't find an alternative in billions of years. Now he has only 50 thousand before the inevitable defeat. 

But this cycle is exceptional, with an exceptional leader. The catalyst himself admit it, Javik too.
So, if shepard refuse both synthesis and control, for the catalyst the alternative is between letting THIS exceptional cycle win (and maybe find a new solution) or being defeated by next - probably not exceptional - cycle (and next ordinary cycle should find the solution)
The catalyst likes destroy more than refuse.

[/quote]

I think that the catalyst doens't have the option to 'like' or 'dislike' any choice. It's experiment is altered by the crucible interrupt, 'making for choices' and the realization of it's failure, or solution(not like a cure/results of experiment, so much as combination/in solution) The catalyst in the solution...

edit: had to add 'results of' for clarity

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 11 janvier 2013 - 02:11 .

[Wayning_Star]

it's getting more obvious that the CatKid isn't the actual brains of the outfit...

[shepskisaac]

kal_reegar wrote...

because his solution won't work anymore. This the key.
if he kills Shep and the crucible is not used (which is exactly the refusal ending scenario), NEXT CYCLE WILL WIN. Refusal ending proves it.
There's nothing the catalyst can do to avoid it, and he knows it.
The variables have been altered, and his solution won't work anymore. Why can't he find a new solution himself? I don't know, probably because the reapers (or synthesis) are the only solution. He didn't find an alternative in billions of years. Now he has only 50 thousand before the inevitable defeat. 

But this cycle is exceptional, with an exceptional leader. The catalyst himself admit it, Javik too.
So, if shepard refuse both synthesis and control, for the catalyst the alternative is between letting THIS exceptional cycle win (and maybe find a new solution) or being defeated by next - probably not exceptional - cycle (and next ordinary cycle should find the solution)
The catalyst likes destroy more than refuse.

But it is his primary programming to find a solution. This is an AI construct that has one goal - find a solution. Such an entity can't just 'capitulate'. If he's not forced by the Crucible, then it means he should be already thinking of how to prevent getting destroyed by this or next cycle so he can continue to search for solution to organic survival problem. Commiting suicide opposes his directive of finding a solution. And synthesis is not even available in all endings so it can't count as a reason for caputilation because "he can't get it now". It makes sense for him to admit his current solution won't work. It makes no sense for an AI construct to commit suicide and stop following its primary directive of looking for a solution.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 11 janvier 2013 - 02:23 .

[MegaSovereign]

IsaacShep wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Interesting. I've always done high EMS playthroughs so I've never come across this dialogue.

Also I thought low EMS locked you out of the Control ending unless you saved the Collector base. I need to re-evaluate things.

No wonder though, because this dialogue only appears when Synthesis is not available. I also learnt about its existance only this week. When Synthesis is available, the dialogue is cut short to present the last Synthesis choice so that's why pretty much everyone missed it.

Few people suggested on BSN in the past months that the Crucible forces the Catalyst to present the choices and get the Crucible activated (even if the choice is not what he likes) and I always thought this was a very likely scenario, already supported by the fact that he says "the Crucible changed me blah blah" and that he says during Control discussion that he would be forced to accept Shep deleting him and taking his place, but this new lines seals the deal for me.

I'm still a little skeptical about this interpretation. It creates some gaps in the narrative in terms of the Crucible's origins. Like...How did the previous cycles design the Crucible to manipulate an ancient AI that they have never met? 

I mean don't get me wrong. I can see how it those lines could be interpreted as such, but I'm taking his words at face value. The Reapers don't work as a solution anymore. Destroy is the Catalyst's least preferred option considering he spends a great deal of time warning Shepard about the ramifications of it. However, Destroy is still better then continuing a harvest that will ultimately achieve nothing. The proof is in the Refusal ending: eventually a future cycle will defeat the Reapers.

On the other hand, the low EMS endings make no sense at all without your interpretation. The low-EMS Destroy ending vaporizes most life in the galaxy and the relay explosion actually causes "unpredictable damage" according to the Catalyst. At that point the Crucible would be doing more damage than the Reapers could.

[kal_reegar]

IsaacShep wrote...
But it is his primary programming to find a solution. This is an AI construct that has one goal - find a solution. Such an entity can't just 'capitulate'. If he's not forced by the Crucible, then it means he should be already thinking of how to prevent getting destroyed by this or next cycle so he can continue to search for solution to organic survival problem. Commiting suicide opposes his directive of finding a solution. And synthesis is not even available in all endings so it can't count as a reason for caputilation because "he can't get it now". It makes sense for him to admit his current solution won't work. It makes no sense for an AI construct to commit suicide and stop following its primary directive of looking for a solution.

But destroy IS a solution. And now it's a better solution than continue harvesting.

people always forget about one thing: the crucible. The crucible can be re-build any time.

reapers > organics without crucible
but organics with crucible > reapers (and all synthetics in general)

the catalyst think that organics will continue to build synthetics which will rebel against the creators, but... now the creators have the crucible.
Which is more effective protection than the reapers as they are now (under the control of the catalyst)

so the caos will continue, yes, but now the organics can defend on their own.