211 réponses à ce sujet

[FaWa]

 Why the HELL is this not in DA2?

[AkiKishi]

Money.

[loaklt1]

Well, the hero of the game-Hawke-is the reason....

Firstly, he/she is voiced. Voiced heroes and race choice are quite incompatible, as most people (including myself) don't think that the characters of different races should share the same voices. And more than one voice actor per gender is expensive....no publisher will finance that.

Secondly, Bioware decided to connect the story with Hawks family. Which causes problems with different origins because there'd have to be constants in all of them: Hawkes father as a mage (not even possible for a dwarvish character), his relatives in Kirkwall, etc...
 

[Jerrybnsn]

At the time (Before Origins became Bioware's most succesful game) it was decided that people would rather play a Mass Effect type of Dragon Age than what was to be released. Some people don't like inventories, customization, exploration and tactical, realistic combat...we call them jrpg fanboys.

[Loc'n'lol]

Jerrybnsn wrote...
customization, exploration and tactical, realistic combat...

TBH, there wasn't much of any of this to be found in DAO either...
unless you count the toolset as customization. Sure that was great, but the core game was lacking in that department too.

[coles4971]

You can customise all of your party members with practically anything in DA:O (mages in heavy plate, mages with swords, heavy plate rogues, lightly armoured warriors, warriors with bows etc. etc.) unlike DA2 when customising party member outfits (excluding the PC) is completely removed and you can only change accessories.

DA:O had more exploration than DA2 which stayed mostly in Kirkwall and it was far more interesting travelling in Origins because of the variety of places you visited than just Kirkwall.

Realistic combat, well ...

...i'm not a fan of DA2's combat at all, but I don't think DA:O's was that realistic. Had a greater level of verisimilitude IMO, sure, but it's not that hard to make a game with more realistic animations than swinging 6ft swords around with one hand, rogues flailing their daggers about and kicking flasks.

[loaklt1]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

At the time (Before Origins became Bioware's most succesful game) it was decided that people would rather play a Mass Effect type of Dragon Age than what was to be released. Some people don't like inventories, customization, exploration and tactical, realistic combat...we call them jrpg fanboys.

Which is a simplification of the real circumstances. Of course, there are " hardcore fans of western rpgs" and "jrpg fanboys", but I believe most players don't play or think in such categories but like what is fun for them. I, for example like inventories, exploration and realistic-looking combat, but prefer the voiced hero for reasons of orchestration.
Plus, as said above, DAO has problems in some of these issues, too...or which one was that game with the endless tunnel levels full with standard enemy hordes? Not exactly the best definition of exploration and tactical combat...

[AkiKishi]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

At the time (Before Origins became Bioware's most succesful game) it was decided that people would rather play a Mass Effect type of Dragon Age than what was to be released. Some people don't like inventories, customization, exploration and tactical, realistic combat...we call them jrpg fanboys.

Someones never played JRPGs.

[Jerrybnsn]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

At the time (Before Origins became Bioware's most succesful game) it was decided that people would rather play a Mass Effect type of Dragon Age than what was to be released. Some people don't like inventories, customization, exploration and tactical, realistic combat...we call them jrpg fanboys.

Someones never played JRPGs.

I admit I haven't played a jrpg since 2004.  But seriously, do you prefer tactical combat over more action?  Would you rather the story take you along the game in terms of exploration or would you like the freedom to go anywhere?

[AkiKishi]

Jerrybnsn wrote...
I admit I haven't played a jrpg since 2004.  But seriously, do you prefer tactical combat over more action?  Would you rather the story take you along the game in terms of exploration or would you like the freedom to go anywhere?

Depends on the game.
All those elements are in JRPGs of one type or another, so I was just pointing out you are way off base blaming them for anything.

If anything the blame lies squarely with Bioware and it's attempt to increase sales by trying to appeal to the fanbases of other games.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 juin 2012 - 02:39 .

[Jerrybnsn]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...
I admit I haven't played a jrpg since 2004.  But seriously, do you prefer tactical combat over more action?  Would you rather the story take you along the game in terms of exploration or would you like the freedom to go anywhere?

Depends on the game.
All those elements are in JRPGs of one type or another, so I was just pointing out you are way off base blaming them for anything.

I've read on this site from many posters who prefered not customizing their companions and have felt that story line trumps over exploration.  This is what you find in the jrpgs.  You're acting like there is no such difference in wrpgs and jrpgs, when in fact they are two very different styles.  DA2 is more of a jrpg than a wrpg.  Its those fans that Bioware is reaching out towards, but to do that they had to pull away from the wrpg features.

[AkiKishi]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...
I admit I haven't played a jrpg since 2004.  But seriously, do you prefer tactical combat over more action?  Would you rather the story take you along the game in terms of exploration or would you like the freedom to go anywhere?

Depends on the game.
All those elements are in JRPGs of one type or another, so I was just pointing out you are way off base blaming them for anything.

I've read on this site from many posters who prefered not customizing their companions and have felt that story line trumps over exploration.  This is what you find in the jrpgs.  You're acting like there is no such difference in wrpgs and jrpgs, when in fact they are two very different styles.  DA2 is more of a jrpg than a wrpg.  Its those fans that Bioware is reaching out towards, but to do that they had to pull away from the wrpg features.

I'd probably be one of those people. However Witcher2 and Deus Ex:HR have very little JRPG vibe going on.

On the flipside Xenoblade which is a JRPG offers HUGE maps and the ability to explore them (in fact they are so huge some sort of vehicle would have been nice). Fully customised armour (they do have prefered weapons) and non linear in the Bioware sense of the word gameplay.

DA2 was targetting the people who play CoD,Assasins Creed and games with character building which would be action/adventures (not creation). Not JRPG players.There is an interview to that effect, but I don't care enough to search. Google Bioware targets CoD crowd or something, if you are interested.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 juin 2012 - 02:49 .

[Jerrybnsn]

I think the CoD reference was over the number of people that played those games given that CoD was succesful because of it multiplayer and not because of its six hour storyline.

I see I set myself up for a circular argument on what makes a jrpg and what makes a wrpg, and then next thing I'll know is we'll be arguing over what makes a role playing game. Let's just say I'll admit the lines are blurred today as they have been for the last five years or so. But ten years ago, the lines weren't so blurred as wrpgs were mostly for the computers and jrpgs were for consoles. I think with Origins return to Baldur's Gate style and then completely going away from that with DA2 was targeting as many people as possible, and those changes moved the game more towards jrpg.

[brushyourteeth]

FaWa wrote...

 Why the HELL is this not in DA2?

Good question.

[Sakanade]

artistic integrity

[thats1evildude]

Because apparently the vast majority of people only played Human Noble.

[Dave of Canada]

Considering the % of people who've ever played anything but human noble is ridiculously low, the resources could be spent better elsewhere.

[Realmzmaster]

Many experienced gamers decide to turn off the data collection module for DAO. Those who did not know how to or did not care left it on. Data was collected from those gamers and the vast majority played human noble.

Bioware decided to go with a voiced protagonist for DA2. The easiest way to have resources for that was to remove multiple origins that according to the data gamers were not playing anyway. Therefore you would need only two voices: one male and one female for the PC.

[Zanallen]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Many experienced gamers decide to turn off the data collection module for DAO. Those who did not know how to or did not care left it on. Data was collected from those gamers and the vast majority played human noble.

Bioware decided to go with a voiced protagonist for DA2. The easiest way to have resources for that was to remove multiple origins that according to the data gamers were not playing anyway. Therefore you would need only two voices: one male and one female for the PC.

This. Plus, in the long run, the origins just did not matter in DAO. It was a bit of flavor for the first hour or so of the game and then was never mentioned again (barring one or two references) once you hit Ostagar. Granted, Bioware could have refined the mechanic and improved upon it, but when has Bioware ever done that? If something doesn't work the way they want it to, they generally cut it completely and do something different.

[bEVEsthda]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Many experienced gamers decide to turn off the data collection module for DAO. Those who did not know how to or did not care left it on. Data was collected from those gamers and the vast majority played human noble.

Bioware decided to go with a voiced protagonist for DA2. The easiest way to have resources for that was to remove multiple origins that according to the data gamers were not playing anyway. Therefore you would need only two voices: one male and one female for the PC.

If this is true then it's a spectacular failure and horrible resource management. I have to say I find it hard to imagine such,..  eh,..    (bear with me, trying to avoid permabanning here), mhmmm,..  such bad luck.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 14 juin 2012 - 07:58 .

[thats1evildude]

There were also a number of people who complained about the lack of a voiced protagonist. As others mentioned, this would have been difficult to implement with multiple origins.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 14 juin 2012 - 07:32 .

[AkiKishi]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Many experienced gamers decide to turn off the data collection module for DAO. Those who did not know how to or did not care left it on. Data was collected from those gamers and the vast majority played human noble.

Bioware decided to go with a voiced protagonist for DA2. The easiest way to have resources for that was to remove multiple origins that according to the data gamers were not playing anyway. Therefore you would need only two voices: one male and one female for the PC.

If this is true then it's a spectacual failure and horrible resource management. I have to say I find it hard to imagine such,..  eh,..    (bear with me, trying to avoid permabanning here), mhmmm,..  such bad luck.

Most people play the default option. Like in ME more people play soldiers than the other classes combined by quite a large %.

I would argue it would be bad resource management to spend the same money on something 5-15% of people played vs 80-85%. Which is what you would be doing if you had additional VA. How many people never bought DA2 because there were no races ?

[bEVEsthda]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Most people play the default option. Like in ME more people play soldiers than the other classes combined by quite a large %.

I would argue it would be bad resource management to spend the same money on something 5-15% of people played vs 80-85%. Which is what you would be doing if you had additional VA. How many people never bought DA2 because there were no races ?

I would argue that, regardless, it results in a much lesser game. Obvious lesser game.

And we also return to these old problems of drawing conclusions from data-mining metrics. Are they representative? Who are we mining? And when? Who are we not? What is the story the metrics don't tell? And, very important, what people have sofar done, has little to do with what they intend to do, expect to do, or want to do.

Frankly, I just think voice acting the PC came much cheaper than Origins.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 14 juin 2012 - 08:13 .

[cogsandcurls]

FaWa wrote...

 Why the HELL is this not in DA2?

Because the story of DA2 relied heavily on Hawke coming from a particular family with a particular history. Most of the big plot points were about Hawke's relationship with his/her family; can you imagine having to write six different versions of all those plotlines (including riffs on Leandra and the siblings) and voice them all and have them be at all relevant to the plot?

There's a reason you come from a magical family, are either a mage or have a mage sister. You have an in-built stake in the plot. I know some people don't like the Mage/Templar focus in DA2, but can you imagine how completely awkward and shoehorned the whole thing would feel if you were playing it as a (completely unmagical) dwarf?

I know there are varying opinions on DA2's story, and I don't want to open that can of worms, but; IMHO the racial origins would straight-up not have worked with the story DA2 told. (For what it's worth I loved the origin stories, but I also loved the Hawke family. I'm not saying either approaches are objectively better for any future games.)

Modifié par cogsandcurls, 14 juin 2012 - 09:56 .