211 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

bEVEsthda wrote...

I would argue that, regardless, it results in a much lesser game. Obvious lesser game.

You could argue that, but its pure opinion.  Its certainly not "obvious" that DA2 was a lesser game for that reason.  There are plenty of people on both sides of the "focused storyline" and "many options" divide.

bEVEsthda wrote...
And we also return to these old problems of drawing conclusions from data-mining metrics. Are they representative? Who are we mining? And when? Who are we not? What is the story the metrics don't tell? And, very important, what people have sofar done, has little to do with what they intend to do, expect to do, or want to do.

If it was just DA2 that showed these results, you might have some basis for disputing.   But its pretty consistent across games that many of these "neat" features are barely used outside the hardcore fanbase.    Given NWN's focus on toolset and downloadable content, you'd expect that most people would have tried it.  But you'd be wrong.  The vast majority of NWN buyers never downloaded a single thing.   The vast majority of ME players played a male soldier shepard.   The bulk of DAO players played the human nobleman origin.

These are facts.   They are not, however, the reason decisions were made.  No one said  "hmm, no one plays the dorfs, lets cut them."    Instead, it was more likely  "Hmm, voiced protagonists give us these options. W hat will it cost us?  No origins?   Well, ,most of our fanbase doesn't use them, I suppose that's a reasonable sacrifice."

[Direwolf0294]

Fandango9641 wrote...

FaWa wrote...

 Why the HELL is this not in DA2?

Because voiced protaganist.

I don't see how that would have an effect on whether or not a game has origin stories.

I think the main reason was because with the story they wanted to tell in DA2 they wanted the PC to have a family and family ties to Kirkwall and that would have been harder if there had been multiple origin stories. I hope origins return in DA3 though because it was the best feature of DA:O.

[Ghidorah14]

Because Bioware wanted to tell a deep, personal tale about about a family and....

Oh wait.

[Teddie Sage]

"Voiced" protagonist is a lame excuse by now. Saints Row 2 had multiple voices for male and female, both could be done easily in Dragon Age 3 for all the races options. It seems it a human main character fits way better in Dragon Age 2's storyline though.

[CuriousArtemis]

Teddie Sage wrote...

"Voiced" protagonist is a lame excuse by now.

Yep.  I mean someone like Varric's VA could just as easily voice a human and an elf.  And all women sound the same in fantasy games.  

I don't think being a different race would have added anything to Hawke's story.  

I don't think being a different race really added much to the Warden's story, either.  It should have, but it didn't... well, I think a voiced Warden would have changed the game drastically and made it that much more enjoyable, perhaps even highlighted the racial differences (that sounds so bad lol).

[wsandista]

Teddie Sage wrote...

"Voiced" protagonist is a lame excuse by now. Saints Row 2 had multiple voices for male and female, both could be done easily in Dragon Age 3 for all the races options. It seems it a human main character fits way better in Dragon Age 2's storyline though.

The problem isn't that it is easy, but that it is expensive. Take a look at the sheer amount of dialogue lines in DAO, imagine how much it would cost to have all of them voiced with just two VA's. It is a very large hunk of money.

[Absafraginlootly]

They didn't put origins and races in DA2 because they wanted a more personal family oriented story and having multiple race/origins would have been impractical for the story they wanted to tell.

And that was fine and enjoyable for one game, but I wouldn't want the entire series to be without them.

Personally I hope that The Next Thing has either multiple origins or races (I accept that we probably won't get both). I figure that you could still have one voice actor per gender that way, if an elf, a human and a dwarf all grew up the same way/raised by same people/had the same origin than it is reasonable to expect that they would have the same or simaliar accents. Or you could have one race but multiple origns, and there wouldn't need to be as many as there were in DAO.

There could also be some kind of compromise by having say only 2-3 origins and 2-3 races, but I do suspect we'll only get one or the other.

Personally, as much as I enjoyed playing all the races in origins, if I had to choose I'd prefer they added origins.

[hussey 92]

Bioware decided a DA Comander Shepard would be better than Origin stories.

[Realmzmaster]

bEVEsthda wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Most people play the default option. Like in ME more people play soldiers than the other classes combined by quite a large %.

I would argue it would be bad resource management to spend the same money on something 5-15% of people played vs 80-85%. Which is what you would be doing if you had additional VA. How many people never bought DA2 because there were no races ?

I would argue that, regardless, it results in a much lesser game. Obvious lesser game.

And we also return to these old problems of drawing conclusions from data-mining metrics. Are they representative? Who are we mining? And when? Who are we not? What is the story the metrics don't tell? And, very important, what people have sofar done, has little to do with what they intend to do, expect to do, or want to do.

Frankly, I just think voice acting the PC came much cheaper than Origins.

Having a data collection module is one way of gathering data on how the gamer is playing. The other way is to do surveys which have a very low return rate both mail or online. The surveys have the same problem as the data collection module not everyone will participate so the results are still be skewed.

Another way is to gage the opinion presented on the forum which can be very skewed in one direction or the other. There is no guarnteed fool proof method of data collection that will allow a conclusive decision . Data mining may not be exact but it is one of the tools used to reach a decision.

If gamers refuse to participate then the results will be skewed in the favor of those who do. Male human noble was the origin that was played the most. 

Origins are cheaper than voicing the character. The origins at best account for the first 30 minutes. After Ostagar the game is basically the same for all origins. Given the number of lines of text that the warden could speak in one of two voices the cost would not be cheap.

[Plaintiff]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

At the time (Before Origins became Bioware's most succesful game) it was decided that people would rather play a Mass Effect type of Dragon Age than what was to be released. Some people don't like inventories, customization, exploration and tactical, realistic combat...we call them jrpg fanboys.

Which is complete nonsense, because plenty of JRPGs feature those things, but don't let reality get in the way of bias.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Considering the % of people who've ever played anything but human noble is ridiculously low, the resources could be spent better elsewhere.

Yeah, different human origins. I can guarantee that number is so high because of the fact that it's a human origin, not a noble one.

Dear god if everything about a game was left to the vast majority of gamers, Call of Duty would have 50 sequels by now.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Well on it's way, Gibb.

CoD, CoD 2, CoD 3, CoD: MW, CoD: WaW, CoD: MW 2, CoD: BO, CoD: BO 2, CoD: MW 3.

As for Origins, I liked them. Not perfect mind you, but easily the most innovative or unique aspect of the franchise. But the development schedule combined with the changes in protagonist design (voiced, more elaborate cinematics, etc) made it impossible.

Plus, having Origins for multiple games hamstrings the writers in having continuity between games, especially in regards to the protagonist. It's why I suspect Dragon Age 2's choices regarding the protagonist were minimal: it'd be easier to write in a canon one for future games.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 15 juin 2012 - 08:53 .

[TEWR]

Because despite DAII's numerous faults, playing as a human really was the best way to tie into the Mage-Templar issue and connect that to the personal narrative.

In theory. Didn't really feel that way when I played, and thus I personally consider it to have failed. As do some other people who felt the same way I did.

But Elves wouldn't be allowed to gain an estate in Hightown due to the massive level of prejudice/racism that's seen. And Dwarves -- current Dwarves anyway -- can't have a Mage sibling. Unless the family is comprised of half-Dwarves.

But I think it's very rare for a Dwarf to be with a non-Dwarf, let alone sire a child with a non-Dwarf due to their already low fertility rate when with a fellow Dwarf.

However, playing as a Human doesn't mean there couldn't have been class-based origins. At least two should've been present -- Mage and Non-Mage -- but ideally three would be seen (Warrior, Rogue, Mage).

And they could've been tied into Lothering and Ostagar -- if you're playing a non-Mage -- and your flight from there.

[Urzon]

thats1evildude wrote...

Because apparently the vast majority of people only played Human Noble.

Seriously, that makes me cry on the inside. The human noble origin was the most boring one for me personally. It was just so..... typical in a fantasy storyline. Your perfectly wholesome noble mother and father get betrayed by a moustache twirling villain type, now it is your job to avenger them!

Dwarven Noble >>>>> Human Noble

Everytime.

[AkiKishi]

Realmzmaster wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Most people play the default option. Like in ME more people play soldiers than the other classes combined by quite a large %.

I would argue it would be bad resource management to spend the same money on something 5-15% of people played vs 80-85%. Which is what you would be doing if you had additional VA. How many people never bought DA2 because there were no races ?

I would argue that, regardless, it results in a much lesser game. Obvious lesser game.

And we also return to these old problems of drawing conclusions from data-mining metrics. Are they representative? Who are we mining? And when? Who are we not? What is the story the metrics don't tell? And, very important, what people have sofar done, has little to do with what they intend to do, expect to do, or want to do.

Frankly, I just think voice acting the PC came much cheaper than Origins.

Having a data collection module is one way of gathering data on how the gamer is playing. The other way is to do surveys which have a very low return rate both mail or online. The surveys have the same problem as the data collection module not everyone will participate so the results are still be skewed.

Another way is to gage the opinion presented on the forum which can be very skewed in one direction or the other. There is no guarnteed fool proof method of data collection that will allow a conclusive decision . Data mining may not be exact but it is one of the tools used to reach a decision.

If gamers refuse to participate then the results will be skewed in the favor of those who do. Male human noble was the origin that was played the most. 

Origins are cheaper than voicing the character. The origins at best account for the first 30 minutes. After Ostagar the game is basically the same for all origins. Given the number of lines of text that the warden could speak in one of two voices the cost would not be cheap.

Most gamers are male and if you look at data from ME most gamers play the default option. Human Noble was the default option so most people started with that. Now if the data also shows that most people don't finish games, let alone replay them, that leads to a very big majority for the default option.

The origns gave a good insight into how the world was for different people. If you carry that into the game too much you are left with DA2 where you get railroaded.
My first character was a Dwarf Commoner, he chose the king based only on how it would advance his sisters status. But that was not the only option, unlike in DA where your siblings removal is a forced event.

[Melca36]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Most people play the default option. Like in ME more people play soldiers than the other classes combined by quite a large %.

I would argue it would be bad resource management to spend the same money on something 5-15% of people played vs 80-85%. Which is what you would be doing if you had additional VA. How many people never bought DA2 because there were no races ?

I would argue that, regardless, it results in a much lesser game. Obvious lesser game.

And we also return to these old problems of drawing conclusions from data-mining metrics. Are they representative? Who are we mining? And when? Who are we not? What is the story the metrics don't tell? And, very important, what people have sofar done, has little to do with what they intend to do, expect to do, or want to do.

Frankly, I just think voice acting the PC came much cheaper than Origins.

Having a data collection module is one way of gathering data on how the gamer is playing. The other way is to do surveys which have a very low return rate both mail or online. The surveys have the same problem as the data collection module not everyone will participate so the results are still be skewed.

Another way is to gage the opinion presented on the forum which can be very skewed in one direction or the other. There is no guarnteed fool proof method of data collection that will allow a conclusive decision . Data mining may not be exact but it is one of the tools used to reach a decision.

If gamers refuse to participate then the results will be skewed in the favor of those who do. Male human noble was the origin that was played the most. 

Origins are cheaper than voicing the character. The origins at best account for the first 30 minutes. After Ostagar the game is basically the same for all origins. Given the number of lines of text that the warden could speak in one of two voices the cost would not be cheap.

Most gamers are male and if you look at data from ME most gamers play the default option. Human Noble was the default option so most people started with that. Now if the data also shows that most people don't finish games, let alone replay them, that leads to a very big majority for the default option.

The origns gave a good insight into how the world was for different people. If you carry that into the game too much you are left with DA2 where you get railroaded.
My first character was a Dwarf Commoner, he chose the king based only on how it would advance his sisters status. But that was not the only option, unlike in DA where your siblings removal is a forced event.

Um have you seen the new gamer statistics just released?   47% of gamers are now female. Its almost 50-50 and I think within 2 years it will be.


I also happen to finish my games. For $60 I want my moneys worth.   I played each origin....but my preference was for noble, mage and then Dwarf Commoner.  

The Dalish took me the longest to finish but I did it.

[Melca36]

thats1evildude wrote...

There were also a number of people who complained about the lack of a voiced protagonist. As others mentioned, this would have been difficult to implement with multiple origins.

I have no problems playing both style of games. I enjoyed playing my Warden and I loved my Hawkes.


I will say this, people who whine about the voiceless characters obviously are too lazy or lack the imagination to play that sort of game. <_<

[Yrkoon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Considering the % of people who've ever played anything but human noble is ridiculously low, the resources could be spent better elsewhere.

thats1evildude wrote...

Because apparently the vast majority of people only played Human Noble.

LOL   If anyone from Bioware actually  gave that as a reason  (and I seriously doubt they did) then they deserve no respect from anyone  over the age of 10.

For that matter, 80% of  DA:O players didn't finish the game, either.  Yet that didn't stop bioware  from spending resources into   making an ending  for DA2.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 juin 2012 - 11:06 .

[Yrkoon]

Hell, we can also take that a step further. If the vast majority of DA:O players played just the Human Noble Origin, then that means the vast majority of Players  didn't play as Mages.  But, again, that didn't stop Bioware from bringing back the Mage class in DA2, and in fact, catering the protagonist's story and background around magic itself.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 juin 2012 - 11:17 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Yrkoon wrote...

For that matter, 80% of  DA:O players didn't finish the game.  Yet that didn't stop bioware  from spending resources into   making an ending  for DA2.

You found this statistics from the sewers?
Because only less than 1% of DA:O players has abandoned the game in their first run.

[Wrathion]

Where are you people getting these statistics from? Sources people, link them.

[Sabariel]

FaWa wrote...

 Why the HELL is this not in DA2?

Cuz BioWare never loved you.

[Yrkoon]

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

For that matter, 80% of  DA:O players didn't finish the game.  Yet that didn't stop bioware  from spending resources into   making an ending  for DA2.

You found this statistics from the sewers?

I got them from Mike Laidlaw.

Edit:  Excuse me, I was grossly understating things.  According to Laidlaw, the metrics say that a significant number of players quit  DA:O after just one hour.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 juin 2012 - 11:06 .