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Just did a run through of all the origin stories in DAO and


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#51
Wulfram

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cogsandcurls wrote...


Because the story of DA2 relied heavily on Hawke coming from a particular family with a particular history. Most of the big plot points were about Hawke's relationship with his/her family


You thought so?  The family seemed mostly tangential to me, aside from "All that remains" and a few weak nods towards connecting the "Get rich" plot of Act 1 to the threat from the Templars.

In practicaly terms, they probably couldn't have had a family member party member for act 1, but otherwise I don't see that DA2 was incompatible with having multiple origins.

#52
Yrkoon

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Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Where are you people getting these statistics from? Sources people, link them.

    It's industry standard

90% of gamers don't finish the games they play. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 juin 2012 - 10:27 .


#53
Uccio

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loaklt1 wrote...


Well, the hero of the game-Hawke-is the reason....

Firstly, he/she is voiced. Voiced heroes and race choice are quite incompatible, as most people (including myself) don't think that the characters of different races should share the same voices. And more than one voice actor per gender is expensive....no publisher will finance that.

Secondly, Bioware decided to connect the story with Hawks family. Which causes problems with different origins because there'd have to be constants in all of them: Hawkes father as a mage (not even possible for a dwarvish character), his relatives in Kirkwall, etc...
 



Well since Bio cut corners with most of the DAO features anyway with DA2 then I seen no reason why they could not have used the same voiced pc for differens origins. For all of the short comings of DA2 that would have been a really really minor one. Also I see no reason skip origins just because Hawkes father was a mage. So what, just come up with another reason for the "exile". There are tons of dwarves running around Thedas who have been exiled from the dwarven kingdoms from various reasons.

Modifié par Ukki, 15 juin 2012 - 10:35 .


#54
Yrkoon

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^and Elves. Merril's tribe recently migrated from the Bracilian forest themselves.

Want an example of squandered potential?   There it is.  How cool would it have been, if DA2   gave you the option of being a Dalish elf and starting the game from *there*?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 juin 2012 - 10:49 .


#55
Kaiser Arian XVII

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Ah I see what you did there. I mean the serious gamers who finish every good game they play, often.

#56
Fast Jimmy

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Melca36 wrote...

Um have you seen the new gamer statistics just released?   47% of gamers are now female. Its almost 50-50 and I think within 2 years it will be.


I'm not sure exactly where you are quoting this number from, but I've seeb similar claims that were rendered very inaccurate. If we're counting cell phone games, like Angry Birds or Words With Friends, sure. The split becomes almost even.

If you were to look at console ownership or a PC with a true $60 registered game on its harddrive, you'd find that percentage heavily swung towards males (although it has grown significantly in the past decade or so).

Not trying to disparage female gaming, just pointing out it is nowhere near a 50-50 split for AAA release games.

#57
Yrkoon

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Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

Ah I see what you did there. I mean the serious gamers who finish every good game they play, often.

Yeah, except  that when we're dealing with vital things like Budgets, resources and Sales, the fringe minority  does not constitute the rule.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 juin 2012 - 10:57 .


#58
AkiKishi

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Melca36 wrote...
Um have you seen the new gamer statistics just released?   47% of gamers are now female. Its almost 50-50 and I think within 2 years it will be.


I also happen to finish my games. For $60 I want my moneys worth.   I played each origin....but my preference was for noble, mage and then Dwarf Commoner.  

The Dalish took me the longest to finish but I did it.




Well we are both correct, but you in a more technical sense. Those stats are games as whole, where as RPGS are more heavily stacked. If you look at how the overall statistics break down by genre you will see where I was I coming from.

I finished DA 8 times, but I'm not a typical player. Statistics say most people don't finish games. I have no reason to doubt them.

#59
AkiKishi

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Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

Ah I see what you did there. I mean the serious gamers who finish every good game they play, often.


Serious gamers as you call them are a minority.

#60
Pzykozis

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Dayum I'm not even a serious gamer if thats the way you want to term it, tons of games I've enjoyed that I've not finished and the list gets longer as I go on, though my favourite games I have replayed multiple times.

I'd say that DA2 requires a human, though that doesn't preclude Origins I guess. Aside from that I enjoyed the Origins but they were pretty inconsequential in the end, I'd prefer more mid game choice if I'm completely honest, or less choices and more meaningful impact for each of the remaining choice.

#61
Fallstar

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Having 6 origins fitted an rpg like DAO. They added a lot of replayability, as for every origin there is a part of the main game where the dialogue changed and you played some part of content that was specific to your Origin. It was a great idea, but DA2 was designed to be played by a human alone. As much as I hope we have multiple origins and races for DA3, I think forcing you down one path was better consdering the story of DA2.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 15 juin 2012 - 11:33 .


#62
Uccio

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BobSmith101 wrote...


Well we are both correct, but you in a more technical sense. Those stats are games as whole, where as RPGS are more heavily stacked. If you look at how the overall statistics break down by genre you will see where I was I coming from.

I finished DA 8 times, but I'm not a typical player. Statistics say most people don't finish games. I have no reason to doubt them.




That is strange. I have finished all of the games I have bought and installed to my pc, allways. And like with DAO, many times. I have hard time to believe those statistics even they might be true.

Modifié par Ukki, 15 juin 2012 - 11:46 .


#63
Yrkoon

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The Origins were simply another element of player freedom and customization. They were never supposed to compete with the main questline in prominence/significance.

To each his own on whether extra levels of freedom and character choice are a good thing in an RPG, but for a me, a game that offers such options, even if I don't end up using them gets my praise. I gave DA:O a straight 10/10. I would have given it a 9 had it not had 6 different prologues.

#64
syllogi

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm not sure exactly where you are quoting this number from, but I've seeb similar claims that were rendered very inaccurate. If we're counting cell phone games, like Angry Birds or Words With Friends, sure. The split becomes almost even.

If you were to look at console ownership or a PC with a true $60 registered game on its harddrive, you'd find that percentage heavily swung towards males (although it has grown significantly in the past decade or so).

Not trying to disparage female gaming, just pointing out it is nowhere near a 50-50 split for AAA release games.


So where are you getting your numbers?  According to NPD, the second highest selling game in 2011 in the US was Just Dance 3.  source. Are you going to claim that a large number of those sales weren't to female gamers?  Also, where is the proof that women don't play CoD, Skyrim, Battlefield, or any of the other top selling games on that list?

#65
fchopin

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I loved the different origin stories in DAO, i would pay for a game with just a few origins in the game.

#66
Yrkoon

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Ukki wrote...
That is strange. I have finished all of the games I have bought and installed to my pc, allways. And like with DAO, many times. I have hard time to believe those statistics even they might be true.

Same*  (but see below for an explanation)

But I don't doubt the stats.  Mainly because I'm related to a few gamers and have  observed their habits with my own two eyes..  My nephew  is a gaming junkie.   He got about 5 games for Christmas last year.   He test drove them  all   for a couple of hours during his holiday break  then moved on.  And the only time he's ever come back to any of them  was when they have Multiplayer  (Like COD), in which case, he'll play those games for countless hours all night.... but he'll do so  online,  never will he waste time with  the official campaign.   the Metrics we're discussing  here would see my Nephew as someone who doesn't finish games, despite the fact that  he  probably clocked about 500 hours into COD this year.


*which brings me to my situation.  Generally, I finish all games I buy.  In fact, I finish them twice.   And if they're any good, I'll finish them 10 times or more.     Except for Skyrim, which I'd rank as the best game purchase I've made in the last 5 years.     I've put more than 1000 hours into Skyrim and I'm still playing it.  But have never finished it.  Never totally completed the main quest line with any of my half dozen characters, and probably never will.  And I know *so* many people with similar habits when it comes to the Elder Scrolls, who's  very appeal  has nothing to do with "closure" or "completion".  I wonder what the metrics would say about that?  They'd probably report that  99% of  Elderscrolls gamers don't complete  an elder scrolls game... which is a complete irrelevancy. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 juin 2012 - 12:08 .


#67
Wrathion

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Fast Jimmy wrote...


I'm not sure exactly where you are quoting this number from, but I've seeb similar claims that were rendered very inaccurate. If we're counting cell phone games, like Angry Birds or Words With Friends, sure. The split becomes almost even.

If you were to look at console ownership or a PC with a true $60 registered game on its harddrive, you'd find that percentage heavily swung towards males (although it has grown significantly in the past decade or so).

Not trying to disparage female gaming, just pointing out it is nowhere near a 50-50 split for AAA release games.


Source. Source. Source.

#68
AngryFrozenWater

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In the recent trend of artistic integrity BW has decided that streamlining the origins was an innovation which would allow iconization of the player character. Translation: It was cheaper to remove it from the game.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 15 juin 2012 - 12:41 .


#69
robertthebard

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It's kinda funny, but I finished NWN's once, but I played it for 5 years, on various servers. In the end, I was spending more time in the toolset than actually playing. In that time, I met plenty of people that never finished any of the campaigns, including my GF at the time, who went straight into playing online. For every Origins game that I have finished, I have 10 that never got done. I currently have 2 running that may never get done. I can say the same thing about DA 2, so far, anyway. Although it's probably not 1 finished to 10 played, or playing.

I, like many others I suspect, get distracted by "What if I'd done this differently" and just start over, instead of going back to an earlier save to try. I notice this problem really bad in MMO's where my friends know me as something of an altaholic, and this is exactly why. I have never finished Oblivion, even though I own it, nor have I ever finished The Witcher, to the point where I didn't even blink when AoK came out. I consider myself to be a typical gamer, even if some games that people talk about often don't appeal to me. I recently picked up Mass Effect 1, so I could start trying to see what the buzz is about, and I have 4 games running, no finishes.

I don't have a problem believing that a large percentage of gamers don't finish games, especially games with MP aspects that may be more appealing. I also know, from years of gaming in MMO's of various qualities, that "there are no girls on the internet" is a lie, or, more accurately, a misconception. I was in a 150 person guild in one game where around 1/3 of the members were female. Some of the married couples in this game were in different guilds, My expreiences with legions in Aion didn't affect this perception either, since even though I gravitated towards smaller legions, there were a goodly percentage of female players there too.

#70
nightscrawl

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FaWa wrote...

Why the HELL is this not in DA2?


Because they didn't feel like it, and they already did it with DAO.


From PAX East...

Q: Dragon Age I was basically the player fighting a horde of ravenous monsters, whereas Dragon Age II was more of a inter, human-inter-species conflict. And I'm curious which one you think worked better, and which one you think the players enjoyed more.

A Mike: Which story worked better: you know, a man versus monster essentially, or a man versus situation? Would that be kind of a good way to sum it up? So I think probably from a fulfillment of something we wanted to do with Origins, which was build out a world and show what it was like in terms of peril, that definitely The Blight was the right way to do it; because The Blight mandated bring societies together and so you had to see all these disparate groups then come together. To be fair though, this structure of Origins was something that we've done before. It's familiar, which is good, but it's also, you know, maybe a bit too familiar? So we wanted to try and do something a little bit different with Two. If only because as a team we've been working on Origins for a very long time... Dave had been on it, what, five years at that point?

A David: Six.

A Mike: Six. And just going right back into a very similar story was a bit, kind of, nerve wracking. So we said "Let's see if we can challenge ourselves, shake ourselves up a bit." And so that's where a more personal story, someting that kind of dealt with "What about someone who wasn't in charge of the army [at Ostagar]? What happened to them?" So I think the DA2 story worked. I think that it let us explore themes we hadn't done before like family and loss in a way we had never done. The hero doesn't lose much in BioWare games -- well Mass [Effect] 3 excepted -- (playful whap by David) And everything Dave does 'cause he takes your heart away. Mass 3, it's just so brutal. Anyway... so the um, and Alistair...

A David: Yes, Alistair never loved you...

A Mike: (Mike looks chagrinned) This panel is over! (laughs) ... So anyway, it was a different story, it was one that I think for us a good thing that kind of, you know, challenge ourselves. I think, given that we'd like to do bigger scope, we might have to go "bigger enemy" again, which is not entirely a bad thing, but I think we've learned some really valuable lessons on it too, in a lot of different fronts. So I'm honestly very glad we did it.

A David: From my perspective, they both had perfectly valid approaches, I would not pick one over the other. But I don't think that just because what we did last was that personal story, that we necessarily would do that again. I think we'll, for the Third, or future versions of the game, we'll try something a little bit different again.


And...

Q: I was actually very pleasantly surprised at the story and the ending of Dragon Age II where it wasn't necessarily [that] we saved the world, but it could have large implications. Was this a conscious decision when you made Dragon Age II?

A Mike: We were kind of trying to shake ourselves up a little bit and see what we could do with storytelling that was different. And to be quite frank, the story of Dragon Age II is setting up, it's really the catalyst moment for the Thedas that Dragon Age is going to turn into. Origins was very much a project designed to introduce everyone to the world, Two was to introduce them to, I guess, to an evolution of that world. And where we're heading I think will give people a better sense of, kind of the "fuller situation" that Thedas is going to face over time. And that's what we'd like to do with it.

A David: Yeah.

A Mike: I think, we really wanted to have that moment, that catalyst moment be something that you played through, instead of being a separate kind of entity.

A David: It's [an] exciting time because back when we built our own IP, our Intellectual Property, we built our own world -- because we moved away from, you know, Dragon Age, from working in other people's worlds -- one of things we kept saying, that one of the main reasons to do that, was that if we wanted to tear down our world, we could do that. Because it's OUR world. So it's an exciting time because, I think anybody who played Dragon Age II can feel that we're on the verge of doing that, of kicking down our own sandcastle, and having you not only witness the beginning of momentous change, but actually seeing that promise fulfilled.


Modifié par nightscrawl, 15 juin 2012 - 01:53 .


#71
Melca36

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Um have you seen the new gamer statistics just released?   47% of gamers are now female. Its almost 50-50 and I think within 2 years it will be.


I'm not sure exactly where you are quoting this number from, but I've seeb similar claims that were rendered very inaccurate. If we're counting cell phone games, like Angry Birds or Words With Friends, sure. The split becomes almost even.

If you were to look at console ownership or a PC with a true $60 registered game on its harddrive, you'd find that percentage heavily swung towards males (although it has grown significantly in the past decade or so).

Not trying to disparage female gaming, just pointing out it is nowhere near a 50-50 split for AAA release games.



Um....Read this link that JUST CAME OUT

http://www.theesa.co...ESA_EF_2012.pdf

Sorry but it is 47%

EDIT  here is the NON PDF link to the new statistics..............

http://www.theesa.co.../gameplayer.asp


So the 47% is true.  

Modifié par Melca36, 15 juin 2012 - 05:33 .


#72
Melca36

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BobSmith101 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...
Um have you seen the new gamer statistics just released?   47% of gamers are now female. Its almost 50-50 and I think within 2 years it will be.


I also happen to finish my games. For $60 I want my moneys worth.   I played each origin....but my preference was for noble, mage and then Dwarf Commoner.  

The Dalish took me the longest to finish but I did it.




Well we are both correct, but you in a more technical sense. Those stats are games as whole, where as RPGS are more heavily stacked. If you look at how the overall statistics break down by genre you will see where I was I coming from.

I finished DA 8 times, but I'm not a typical player. Statistics say most people don't finish games. I have no reason to doubt them.




I think they need to do more stats.  My bet is younger gamers under 25 don't finish their games but older games do.  

I think one of the most saddest stats I've read is how many people consider those Facebook and Google+ games to be actual games.

#73
bEVEsthda

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Vormaerin wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...
And we also return to these old problems of drawing conclusions from data-mining metrics. Are they representative? Who are we mining? And when? Who are we not? What is the story the metrics don't tell? And, very important, what people have sofar done, has little to do with what they intend to do, expect to do, or want to do.


If it was just DA2 that showed these results, you might have some basis for disputing.   But its pretty consistent across games that many of these "neat" features are barely used outside the hardcore fanbase.    Given NWN's focus on toolset and downloadable content, you'd expect that most people would have tried it.  But you'd be wrong.  The vast majority of NWN buyers never downloaded a single thing.   The vast majority of ME players played a male soldier shepard.   The bulk of DAO players played the human nobleman origin.

These are facts.   They are not, however, the reason decisions were made.  No one said  "hmm, no one plays the dorfs, lets cut them."    Instead, it was more likely  "Hmm, voiced protagonists give us these options. W hat will it cost us?  No origins?   Well, ,most of our fanbase doesn't use them, I suppose that's a reasonable sacrifice."


It doesn't matter. Both those versions are the same fallacy. I also see that my main point failed to stick. So I'm going to elaborate on this a bit, that you maybe may see the light.
When Spore originally shipped, the game was limited to only three installs, for ever. Faced with the market's outrage, EA's marketing directors were so clueless they actually tried to publically defend their decision by pointing to metrics, thereby shamelessly exposing their own,.. eh,.. mhmm,... bad luck Posted Image . Do you think three installs is reasonable? If metrics show most gamers don't install games more than three times? Given that customers knew a lot of hardware or system changes would require a reinstall? You have to remember that most users then still believed Spore would be a great simulation, Maxis style, that they would live with a long time.

A fool only sees metrics, and figures it's a basis for being clever.
A customer, otoh, knows desires and can imagine needs. A customer have plans. A customer feels much better about lots of features and options. What is ever used doesn't matter at all, which is also why such metrics don't matter at all.

What is far more interesting to keep track of, is what they will actually flock to buy. We then see, for instance, that retailers refuse to receive any DA2:ultimate edition. And between the lines there's been pretty fair evidence for DA2 late dlc to have sold dismally. DA:O otoh, did very good indeed. I still remember DA:O ultimate outselling DA2 for instance, when the latter was still new. DA2 also achieved most of its sales in the early days. Preorder was almost a mil, other purchased it in the first days, before the sh, hit the fan. Did DA2 then make these sales? Dialogue wheel? Voiced protagonist? Nope! DA:O sold those DA2 games. If you're unable to make that analysis, then you're a,.. eh,.. mhmm,.. guy with bad luck. Posted Image

Try the failed metrics reasoning on other products, and try to guess the sales you'd achieve. What about cars, for instance? Smartphones? Sailing yachts? Shoes? Mustard? Mineral water?

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 15 juin 2012 - 06:06 .


#74
Cutlasskiwi

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Melca36 wrote...

I will say this, people who whine about the voiceless characters obviously are too lazy or lack the imagination to play that sort of game. <_<


Not sure if serious... 

(In case you are): It's always refreshing seeing this 'argument' appear again and again and again. Not all people who complained about a silent PC did it because they are lazy and/or lack an imagination. Please get over yourself. Some people, like me, saw it as the natural step for BioWare games. Not because I'm lazy or lack imagination. I've always treated every BioWare game as a 3rd person game and have wanted a voiced PC for some time. Again, not because I'm lazy or lack imagination. Just that for my playstyle it fits very well.  

#75
Melca36

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Cutlasskiwi wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I will say this, people who whine about the voiceless characters obviously are too lazy or lack the imagination to play that sort of game. <_<


Not sure if serious... 

(In case you are): It's always refreshing seeing this 'argument' appear again and again and again. Not all people who complained about a silent PC did it because they are lazy and/or lack an imagination. Please get over yourself. Some people, like me, saw it as the natural step for BioWare games. Not because I'm lazy or lack imagination. I've always treated every BioWare game as a 3rd person game and have wanted a voiced PC for some time. Again, not because I'm lazy or lack imagination. Just that for my playstyle it fits very well.  



And you have the right how you wish to play. I have nothing against characters with voices. I loved playing Hawke.

What I am tired of is the voiceless character being bashed constantly.