211 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Melca36 wrote...

And you have the right how you wish to play. I have nothing against characters with voices. I loved playing Hawke.

What I am tired of is the voiceless character being bashed constantly. 

Voiceless protagonists work well in non cinematic games but they are not great for cinematic games. Landsmeet in DA:O being a prime example, or anywhere the character needs to project beyond coversation. In such cases the duty falls to an NPC and turns you into a spectator.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Melca36 wrote...

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I will say this, people who whine about the voiceless characters obviously are too lazy or lack the imagination to play that sort of game. <_<

Not sure if serious... 

(In case you are): It's always refreshing seeing this 'argument' appear again and again and again. Not all people who complained about a silent PC did it because they are lazy and/or lack an imagination. Please get over yourself. Some people, like me, saw it as the natural step for BioWare games. Not because I'm lazy or lack imagination. I've always treated every BioWare game as a 3rd person game and have wanted a voiced PC for some time. Again, not because I'm lazy or lack imagination. Just that for my playstyle it fits very well.  

And you have the right how you wish to play. I have nothing against characters with voices. I loved playing Hawke.

What I am tired of is the voiceless character being bashed constantly. 

I'm sure you are just like I'm tired of hearing about how people that prefer voiced PC are (you guessed it) lazy or lacking an imagination. Like preferring one thing makes you so much better or smarter.  

[bEVEsthda]

Yrkoon wrote...

Ukki wrote...
That is strange. I have finished all of the games I have bought and installed to my pc, allways. And like with DAO, many times. I have hard time to believe those statistics even they might be true.

Same*  (but see below for an explanation)

But I don't doubt the stats.  Mainly because I'm related to a few gamers and have  observed their habits with my own two eyes..  My nephew  is a gaming junkie.   He got about 5 games for Christmas last year.   He test drove them  all   for a couple of hours during his holiday break  then moved on.  And the only time he's ever come back to any of them  was when they have Multiplayer  (Like COD), in which case, he'll play those games for countless hours all night.... but he'll do so  online,  never will he waste time with  the official campaign.   the Metrics we're discussing  here would see my Nephew as someone who doesn't finish games, despite the fact that  he  probably clocked about 500 hours into COD this year.


*which brings me to my situation.  Generally, I finish all games I buy.  In fact, I finish them twice.   And if they're any good, I'll finish them 10 times or more.     Except for Skyrim, which I'd rank as the best game purchase I've made in the last 5 years.     I've put more than 1000 hours into Skyrim and I'm still playing it.  But have never finished it.  Never totally completed the main quest line with any of my half dozen characters, and probably never will.  And I know *so* many people with similar habits when it comes to the Elder Scrolls, who's  very appeal  has nothing to do with "closure" or "completion".  I wonder what the metrics would say about that?  They'd probably report that  99% of  Elderscrolls gamers don't complete  an elder scrolls game... which is a complete irrelevancy. 

I do doubt the stats. I'm sure the data mining must miss many finishes and uses, simply because it doesn't fall into the interval (because of a number of different reasons) that the data-mining allows. But it really doesn't matter, anyway. How many cars which don't go faster than speed-limits are sold?

Personally, I claim to finish games. Because I do, those I play a lot. Problem is I have a lot of games I haven't finished. Heck, I haven't even removed the plastic on some of them. That doesn't mean I'm not interested. I still plan to play them and still plan to finish them. It's just that I haven't come around to it yet. (and realistically, never will, for many). That is true for a lot of gamers I think. Games are not finished because they become caught up in playing other games. But they did buy them for a reason. That is what is interesting.

[Ihatebadgames]

Melca36 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

There were also a number of people who complained about the lack of a voiced protagonist. As others mentioned, this would have been difficult to implement with multiple origins.

I have no problems playing both style of games. I enjoyed playing my Warden and I loved my Hawkes.


I will say this, people who whine about the voiceless characters obviously are too lazy or lack the imagination to play that sort of game. <_<

I agree,a lot of DA2 was made for people with a lack of imagination.I played all six Origins before deciding on human noble for the first playthrough.That playthrough was corrupted after I finished the game,with their little before the ending after the ending save,that also happend on a Hawke.My only remaing saves for the ending of DA:O has a male mage,fem Dalish and a male or female human noble to replace the on corrupted earlier.
I prefer unvoiced protagonist.They never sound like I think they should.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Ihatebadgames wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

There were also a number of people who complained about the lack of a voiced protagonist. As others mentioned, this would have been difficult to implement with multiple origins.

I have no problems playing both style of games. I enjoyed playing my Warden and I loved my Hawkes.


I will say this, people who whine about the voiceless characters obviously are too lazy or lack the imagination to play that sort of game. <_<

I agree,a lot of DA2 was made for people with a lack of imagination.I.

Like what?

...<_<

[Zanallen]

Melca36 wrote...

I will say this, people who whine about the voiceless characters obviously are too lazy or lack the imagination to play that sort of game. <_<

Oh please, a preference for a voiced protagonist has nothing to do with laziness or a lack of imagination. Stop being elitist.

[Vormaerin]

bEVEsthda wrote...

If you're unable to make that analysis, then you're a,.. eh,.. mhmm,.. guy with bad luck.

Try the failed metrics reasoning on other products, and try to guess the sales you'd achieve. What about cars, for instance? Smartphones? Sailing yachts? Shoes? Mustard? Mineral water?

If you don't think other industries do exactly that sort of market research as a component of their analysis, you are living in a fantasy land.

As for your conclusions, they are utterly specious.    Fact:   DAO sold better than DA2.     Now.... show me some evidence that it was race options or voiceless protagonists that accounted for that.   It seems rather more likely to me that the reason for that was the weaknesses in the DA2 story (not fleshed out properly, overly passive PC) and other elements of the rushed production (inadequate disguise of the reused  zones, overly blatant spawn/wave elements).

Consider....   lots of games with voiced protagonists and fixed characters sell well.    Few games with blatantly unpolished designed elements do.    But I am sure you are right that it was the voice acting that tanked the game....


Btw, I find it rather interesting that you assume everyone doing market research is too incompetent to consider elements that are Marketing 101 level if not lower.   I'm sure it never occurs to anyone at Bioware that their stats aren't a perfect representation of the universe.   Only someone with your obvious expertise could have figured that out...

Modifié par Vormaerin, 15 juin 2012 - 10:02 .

[FaWa]

My intention of this thread was not to make DAO fans look even worse by leading up to "People who prefer voiced companions have no imagination"

[Chromie]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...
customization, exploration and tactical, realistic combat...

TBH, there wasn't much of any of this to be found in DAO either...
unless you count the toolset as customization. Sure that was great, but the core game was lacking in that department too.

There was even less in DA2.

[bEVEsthda]

Vormaerin wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

If you're unable to make that analysis, then you're a,.. eh,.. mhmm,.. guy with bad luck.

Try the failed metrics reasoning on other products, and try to guess the sales you'd achieve. What about cars, for instance? Smartphones? Sailing yachts? Shoes? Mustard? Mineral water?

Remarkably, I find myself first commenting the quote of myself. The posted response, making this quote, doesn't concern anything in what I said there, so maybe I need to try clarifying.
The "analysis" concerns the fact (yes, it's a fact) that DA:O was responsible for most of DA2's sales. DA2 didn't sell itself.
The "failed metrics" concerns the idea that you can base expectations on what people want to buy, on what they seem to have use for, from stats about what people actually do, or have done before. It doesn't concerns market research as such.

If you don't think other industries do exactly that sort of market research as a component of their analysis, you are living in a fantasy land.

It's been done a long time. And there's a good deal of spectacular failures done before, by others. It's part of market research. The trick is not to just trust the numbers but to also wonder about the human element. You don't see the car industry try to sell cars that don't go faster than the speed limit much.

As for your conclusions, they are utterly specious.    Fact:   DAO sold better than DA2.     Now.... show me some evidence that it was race options or voiceless protagonists that accounted for that.   It seems rather more likely to me that the reason for that was the weaknesses in the DA2 story (not fleshed out properly, overly passive PC) and other elements of the rushed production (inadequate disguise of the reused  zones, overly blatant spawn/wave elements).

Consider.... lots of games with voiced protagonists and fixed characters sell well. Few games with blatantly unpolished designed elements do. But I am sure you are right that it was the voice acting that tanked the game....

I have been thinking about wether I would mention your condenscending tone. Now I've mentioned it.
No, that was not my conclusion. My point was that you have to look at what actually sells. There's a number of conclusions which cannot be made. Such as the one you  attributed to me, that voiceless protagonist sells games. But you can see that voiceless protagonist doesn't inhibit sales. You can see that all over the board (Skyrim). At the same time, you can't find any evidence for that a voiced protagonist sells games.

Btw, I find it rather interesting that you assume everyone doing market research is too incompetent to consider elements that are Marketing 101 level if not lower.   I'm sure it never occurs to anyone at Bioware that their stats aren't a perfect representation of the universe.   Only someone with your obvious expertise could have figured that out...

This last paragraph of yours is also "interesting". The only things I intend to respond with are these two:

What I encountered in this thread was a number of posters who seemed prepared to take these metrics for gospel for something. I'm sure Bioware has some kind of grip on this. They don't really worry me. For every mistake they make, they'll learn something.

EA have repeatedly done things that completely baffles me. Things which don't just seem obvious disasters well in advance, but often are also widely recognized as classic marketing mistakes. Trusting stats, as directly and unconsidered as was done in the three installs incident, is one example. This is a real life example.
As one Coca Cola boss once said: People tend to assume both that we're more stupid than we're are, and smarter than we are. 
It's all easy to assume that big companies must always know best, because they have so many highly paid experts etc. But they do mistakes. This doesn't make me a genius. But, otoh, me pointing out that they make mistakes doesn't make me an idiot either, which is what you seem to infer.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 16 juin 2012 - 10:50 .

[robertthebard]

This is all interesting and such, but doesn't the excerpt from the interview that was posted in this thread pretty much cover why individual origins weren't redone? This, beside the fact that they wouldn't mesh into the story that needed to be told for this game seems to answer the OP fairly well. In essence, the way I see it, we got one thing that was asked for in Origins, a Human Commoner origin.

[Yrkoon]

robertthebard wrote...

This is all interesting and such, but doesn't the excerpt from the interview that was posted in this thread pretty much cover why individual origins weren't redone?

Only if  the reader concludes that they're actual  honest reasons, rather than, you know,   justifications and/or excuses.


"We wanted to try something different"  <-----  Read the article.   This is  actually one of the so-called reasons they give.   A totally ridiculous answer, since  it's false. I can give you a huge laundry list of Past Bioware games (and bioware sequels) that  were just like DA2 in that they didn't contain multiple Origins.   So no. . They were NOT trying anything "different" by making DA2 only have one  pathetically  linear prologue.   What Nonsense.

The second  "reason" they give is a little better, but it still doesn't pass a truth test.  Or a logic test.   The second reason is: "We put multiple Origins in the first game  in order to better introduce players to  the  game world. We didn't need to do this for DA2 because our focus was no longer on introducing people to the game world.  Instead, our focus was on introducing them to the game world's.... evolution."    Translation:  Screw the newcomers.  No Intro-to-the-world for you!.   Yeah.  Actually,  When you can decipher what they're trying to say here, let me know.  In the meantime, I'm still trying to figure out  how game world evolution  suddenly rules out the notion of allowing the player to choose  from multiple Origins.

But really, I think we ALL know the real reason  they didn't put multiple prologues in DA2.    Time and Money.  It takes six times as long, and costs six times as much, to make six origins than  it does to make  just one.

robertthebard wrote...
This, beside the fact that they wouldn't mesh into the story that needed to be told for this game .

Oh, I beg to differ.  DA2 begins with Varric telling Hawke's  Story.  And who's to say how he  begins that story?  Does the Hawke family HAVE to be Humans escaping lothering?  Why couldn't they be, for example,    City Elves escaping from the Denerim Alienage?  or  Dalish Elves escaping the Bracilian forest with Merril's tribe?  Or Dwarves Escaping from Orzamar?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 16 juin 2012 - 03:44 .

[Vormaerin]

bEVEsthda wrote...


No, that was not my conclusion. My point was that you have to look at what actually sells. There's a number of conclusions which cannot be made. Such as the one you  attributed to me, that voiceless protagonist sells games. But you can see that voiceless protagonist doesn't inhibit sales. You can see that all over the board (Skyrim). At the same time, you can't find any evidence for that a voiced protagonist sells games.

If that is your point, its not saying anything.  You made the argument, it seemed to me, that the metrics were wrong and you used two examples.

The first, the Spore thing, I discount because I don't believe that was a metrics driven decision.  I don't believe anyone said "hey, the metric show that players only install three times, so lets put in an install limit."    I think they said "hey, how do we keep people from reselling their games, because we are jerks who like to think selling doesn't transfer ownership?  What can we get away with?  Let's BS it out with some stats to try to make it sound less dickish."

The second one, you said to look at what sells.   Since the discussion was about origins and voiced protagonists, I assumed you were attempting to make a correlation.  Because otherwise the discussion of sales was a total non sequitur.   As we've both said, you can't conclude anything about a specific feature or set of features just based on sales.  All sales tell you is that DAO did better than DA2.   Nothing about why.   "Looking at what sells" doesn't tell us anything about the topic under discussion.

Metrics are a valuable component of any analysis.  They are not the end of all analysis.   They are useful, however, when someone asserts that a little used element is a "key feature."    Sometimes a feature is iconic for a series even when its little used (DM client for NWN, for example).   Hardly anyone used it, but ditching it would have been a PR disaster (as was shown by their aboutface on the subject of not making one in NWN2).  But much more often, people just think that what they like is what everyone likes.  Data mining stats are a handy way of seeing a bigger picture than just one's own anecdotal experience. 

Perhaps I misread your posts, but I got the impression you were participating in the topic and not  just dismissing the whole idea of using metrics in general.  5% utilization of the dwarf origins doesn't mean "oh god, never do that again".  But it does undercut any assertion that its "must have."   That's the only point anyone was making with the use of the data Bioware has released.

[wsandista]

Yrkoon wrote...

The second  "reason" they give is a little better, but it still doesn't pass a truth test.  Or a logic test.   The second reason is: "We put multiple Origins in the first game  in order to better introduce players to  the  game world. We didn't need to do this for DA2 because our focus was no longer on introducing people to the game world.  Instead, our focus was on introducing them to the game world's.... evolution."    Translation:  Screw the newcomers.  No Intro-to-the-world for you!.   Yeah.  Actually,  When you can decipher what they're trying to say here, let me know.  In the meantime, I'm still trying to figure out  how game world evolution  suddenly rules out the notion of allowing the player to choose  from multiple Origins.

Well this looks like a contradiction on their part, seeing as Laidlaw said that DA2 was supposed to make entry into RPGs easier. How can entry be easier when there isn't a proper introduction?

[robertthebard]

Yrkoon wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

This is all interesting and such, but doesn't the excerpt from the interview that was posted in this thread pretty much cover why individual origins weren't redone?

Only if  the reader concludes that they're actual  honest reasons, rather than, you know,   justifications and/or excuses.


"We wanted to try something different"  <-----  Read the article.   This is  actually one of the so-called reasons they give.   A totally ridiculous answer, since  it's false. I can give you a huge laundry list of Past Bioware games (and bioware sequels) that  were just like DA2 in that they didn't contain multiple Origins.   So no. . They were NOT trying anything "different" by making DA2 only have one  pathetically  linear prologue.   What Nonsense.

The second  "reason" they give is a little better, but it still doesn't pass a truth test.  Or a logic test.   The second reason is: "We put multiple Origins in the first game  in order to better introduce players to  the  game world. We didn't need to do this for DA2 because our focus was no longer on introducing people to the game world.  Instead, our focus was on introducing them to the game world's.... evolution."    Translation:  Screw the newcomers.  No Intro-to-the-world for you!.   Yeah.  Actually,  When you can decipher what they're trying to say here, let me know.  In the meantime, I'm still trying to figure out  how game world evolution  suddenly rules out the notion of allowing the player to choose  from multiple Origins.

But really, I think we ALL know the real reason  they didn't put multiple prologues in DA2.    Time and Money.  It takes six times as long, and costs six times as much, to make six origins than  it does to make  just one.

robertthebard wrote...
This, beside the fact that they wouldn't mesh into the story that needed to be told for this game .

Oh, I beg to differ.  DA2 begins with Varric telling Hawke's  Story.  And who's to say how he  begins that story?  Does the Hawke family HAVE to be Humans escaping lothering?  Why couldn't they be, for example,    City Elves escaping from the Denerim Alienage?  or  Dalish Elves escaping the Bracilian forest with Merril's tribe?  Or Dwarves Escaping from Orzamar?

No path is darker than when one's eyes are closed.  We can take this further to minds as well.  Reading this reply leaves me with only one conclusion, you weren't happy with DA 2.  I too can run off a list of BioWare games that didn't have origins, and none of them suffered for the lack of them.  You're certainly entitled to disliking the game, but since the story revolves around the mage/templar conflict, mostly, we even get hints of it before we ever leave Ferelden, I don't think changing the lore to allow a magic capable dwarf is justified.

As for deciphering, it's pretty easy.  If there had been only the HN origin, we wouldn't know first hand what conditions were like in Alienages, or for the Dalish, or Casteless dwarves.  We'd have a general idea about Dwarven Nobles, but even that is different enough from HN to not be the same, despite both being Noble.

However, why would a Dalish willingly strike out to make his/her fortune in the Alienage?  Do you really think life with the clan is so much worse than Alienage life that they'd want to go?  Are we going to have to fall back on "they were helping Merrill with her Blood Magic"?  How does Flemeth become involved?  Random encounter after some refugee brings the amulet?  I have no doubt that time and money restrictions may have played a part, but the fact is, none of the other races would have fit so neatly into the story, since it wasn't written for them.  Remember, the only reason the Dalish origin leaves the clan, despite how they may feel about becoming a Grey Warden, willing or not, is because they became tainted, and it was leave or die of the corruption, or worse.

City elves, maybe, but again, we lose out on some of the possible plot for future installments:  Flemeth, right off the top of my head, and Merrill, since with no amulet, there's no reason to go.  This is, of course assuming a Kirkwall elf.  I can't help but wonder how an elf living in Lothering, if we assume that part of the story stays true, which it would have to to involve Flemeth, would have the coin to book passage to Kirkwall.

[Yrkoon]

Well of course I was disappointed in DA2, it was a deliberate half-effort compared to the first game. On every conceivable level it was a lesser game. But that's neither here nor there. What I was discussing were the reasons the devs gave for not bringing back Multiple Origins.

You're certainly entitled to disliking the game, but since the story revolves around the mage/templar conflict, mostly, we even get hints of it before we ever leave Ferelden, I don't think changing the lore to allow a magic capable dwarf is justified.

Wat? Why would you think they'd have to change the lore to allow for a Dwarf Origin in DA2? Does the game require you to play a Mage? Nope. It doesn't. In fact, I've yet to do a mage Hawke playthrough in DA2, and from what I gather from players who Have played Mage Hawkes, the game narrative doesn't even recognize that you're a mage anyway (Mage Hawke is allowed total freedom to fling spells anywhere, including right in front of templars, without any repercussions at all)

No man, perhaps you forgot how DA:O incorporated The different races and their Origins, and how their purpose was simply to lead you into the main storyline, which stood on its own. That's called good writing. Something completely absent in DA2.

However, why would a Dalish willingly strike out to make his/her fortune in the Alienage?

Again, What? Who said they had to? There's Nothing stopping a Dalish Elf Hawke from  leaving his clan  (like he/she does in DA:O) and then either living with the Dalish outside of Kirkwall, or forging his own path anywhere he wants within Kirkwall. In My Game, Merril lives with her clan, then she moves to the Alienage, then she moves to a Noble estate in Hightown.   Hawke's so-called "rise to power" could have easily seen him do the exact same thing.  You're not thinking this through.

Case in Point:

City elves, maybe, but again, we lose out on some of the possible plot for future installments: Flemeth

Because it's a technical impossibility for the writers to write up an encounter with Flemeth that takes place somewhere other than where it does in DA2. Right? I mean, Only a Human Hawke can meet Flemeth and be asked to take an Amulet to a specific mountain top outside of Kirkwall, and then perform a non-human ritual on it.   Can't be done any other way.

Yeah, get back to me when you're ready to have a real debate.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 juin 2012 - 04:21 .

[wsandista]

Skelter192 wrote...

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...
customization, exploration and tactical, realistic combat...

TBH, there wasn't much of any of this to be found in DAO either...
unless you count the toolset as customization. Sure that was great, but the core game was lacking in that department too.

There was none in DA2.

FIXED

[robertthebard]

Yrkoon wrote...

Yeah, get back to me when you're ready to have a real debate.

I must have been ready, since you cherrypicked 1/3 of my post to respond to, instead of responding to the whole thing.  I think perhaps you did forget what the Origins really accomplished, since barring one or two references late, they may as well have all been HN, unless you wanted to marry Alistair/Anora and rule.  You get some reactions in Ostagar, and one or two peppered throughout the game, but largely, origin was irrelevent.  You don't have to take my word for it, it was discussed a lot back in the day.  Their main purpose was to show you what life was generally like in an Alienage, or being Dalish.  They showed you the difference between being Casteless and Noble as a Dwarf.  They hinted at what life was like in the Circle, even though the message was mixed, since some didn't like it, Jowan for example, and some did, Wynne.  No human commoner origin was also a hot topic.  So I find the rose colored glasses used to view them now as inconsistent to the environment when they were released.

More choices in a game is always good.  I would like to be able to play an elf again, I like elves.  I also prefer that they aren't wedged into being the protagonist just to allow them.  I'll let The Magistrate's Order speak for how well a "noble" elf would be accepted in Kirkwall.  Elves in Origins didn't get to rise above their station through deeds, barring the fact that they lived through the Joining.  They got to rise to great influence, that they aren't even supposed to have, because they were a Warden.  The Dalish origin didn't just wake up one day and say "I'm going to go join the Wardens because I'm bored with life here.", they had a choice, which they didn't really have, since you couldn't tell Duncan to stuff it, and let yourself die or worse from the corruption.  The only City Elf we see in the Kirkwall area from Ferelden was already with the Dalish when they came over, Pol.  IIRC, you can speak to him in the Dalish Origin, he's being taught how to use a bow.  All the refugees we see in the Gallows are human.

[Yrkoon]

  Robert, you don't want me to respond to your every word.  Trust me, you won't like it.

robertthebard wrote...

I must have been ready, since you cherrypicked 1/3 of my post to respond to, instead of responding to the whole thing.  I think perhaps you did forget what the Origins really accomplished, since barring one or two references late, they may as well have all been HN, unless you wanted to marry Alistair/Anora and rule.  You get some reactions in Ostagar, and one or two peppered throughout the game, but largely, origin was irrelevent.  You don't have to take my word for it, it was discussed a lot back in the day.  Their main purpose was to show you what life was generally like in an Alienage, or being Dalish.  They showed you the difference between being Casteless and Noble as a Dwarf.  They hinted at what life was like in the Circle, even though the message was mixed, since some didn't like it, Jowan for example, and some did, Wynne.  No human commoner origin was also a hot topic.  So I find the rose colored glasses used to view them now as inconsistent to the environment when they were released.

Translation:  I, Robertthebard,  thought the other 5 origins were  ultimately pointless.    That's fine.  Why didn't you just say that from the getgo, instead of pathetically playing the apologist for Bioware's indefensable  corner-cutting and lazy writing?

Incidently, the so-called "minor details" you're outlining here aren't small things at all.  They're major things that make the difference between a good game and a bad game.

More choices in a game is always good.

Indeed.  Therefore, it's silly to defend a sequel that strips those choices away.  So why are you doing it? 

I would like to be able to play an elf again, I like elves.  I also prefer that they aren't wedged into being the protagonist just to allow them. 

Yep.  And that's what this discussion is about.  So again, why are you defending Bioware's decision to take that away from us?

 I'll let The Magistrate's Order speak for how well a "noble" elf would be accepted in Kirkwall. 

Because THAT's what makes or breaks DA2:  The Magistrate's fetch quest.  Do you even have a point here?  The fast majority of the Dwarven and Elven quests in DA:O also illustrate   that those races would be unaccepted in a Human city.  But  that  didn't prevent the inclusion of Origin stories.  in fact it did the opposite.  it enriched them.

 Elves in Origins didn't get to rise above their station through deeds, barring the fact that they lived through the Joining. 

Oh, you're right!  You don't get to be the Hero of Fereldan  if you play an Elf in DA:O.  And  don't get me started on Awakening, where an Elf cannot be the Warden Commander.

robertthebard wrote...
They got to rise to great influence, that they aren't even supposed to have, because they were a Warden. 

They got to be the....Hero of Fereldan.  Just like every other race.  Including the Human Noble, who ALSO couldn't become anything But the Hero of Fereldan.

 

The Dalish origin didn't just wake up one day and say "I'm going to go join the Wardens because I'm bored with life here.", they had a choice, which they didn't really have, since you couldn't tell Duncan to stuff it, and let yourself die or worse from the corruption.  The only City Elf we see in the Kirkwall area from Ferelden was already with the Dalish when they came over, Pol.  IIRC, you can speak to him in the Dalish Origin, he's being taught how to use a bow.  All the refugees we see in the Gallows are human.

Er.... are you trying to make a comparison here?  Really?  You can't even BE an elf in DA2, let alone be an elf, and have a choice of destiny. And what's this have to do with  multiple Origins?  Oh yeah, nothing.  You've shamelessly changed the subject.  <gag>

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 juin 2012 - 06:13 .

[Sriep]

FaWa wrote...

 Why the HELL is this not in DA2?

I quite like the origens, and I palyed the human mage as well as the human nobel start. However if its a choice I think having the main character voiced makes for better immersion.

I guess they could have done three different starts for the three classes. But maybe that would not fit in with the storyline they were telling.

[FaWa]

Sriep wrote...

FaWa wrote...

 Why the HELL is this not in DA2?

I quite like the origens, and I palyed the human mage as well as the human nobel start. However if its a choice I think having the main character voiced makes for better immersion.

I guess they could have done three different starts for the three classes. But maybe that would not fit in with the storyline they were telling.

Use "story" loosely. On paper it looks better then DAO, but like 75% of DA2...The execution...* oh god why*

Orsino using blood magic for an extra boss fight because extra boss fight is not exactly a story. 

Modifié par FaWa, 17 juin 2012 - 07:20 .

[robertthebard]

Yrkoon wrote...

  Robert, you don't want me to respond to your every word.  Trust me, you won't like it.

robertthebard wrote...

I must have been ready, since you cherrypicked 1/3 of my post to respond to, instead of responding to the whole thing.  I think perhaps you did forget what the Origins really accomplished, since barring one or two references late, they may as well have all been HN, unless you wanted to marry Alistair/Anora and rule.  You get some reactions in Ostagar, and one or two peppered throughout the game, but largely, origin was irrelevent.  You don't have to take my word for it, it was discussed a lot back in the day.  Their main purpose was to show you what life was generally like in an Alienage, or being Dalish.  They showed you the difference between being Casteless and Noble as a Dwarf.  They hinted at what life was like in the Circle, even though the message was mixed, since some didn't like it, Jowan for example, and some did, Wynne.  No human commoner origin was also a hot topic.  So I find the rose colored glasses used to view them now as inconsistent to the environment when they were released.

Translation:  I, Robertthebard,  thought the other 5 origins were  ultimately pointless.    That's fine.  Why didn't you just say that from the getgo, instead of pathetically playing the apologist for Bioware's indefensable  corner-cutting and lazy writing?

Incidently, the so-called "minor details" you're outlining here aren't small things at all.  They're major things that make the difference between a good game and a bad game.

More choices in a game is always good.

Indeed.  Therefore, it's silly to defend a sequel that strips those choices away.  So why are you doing it? 

I would like to be able to play an elf again, I like elves.  I also prefer that they aren't wedged into being the protagonist just to allow them. 

Yep.  And that's what this discussion is about.  So again, why are you defending Bioware's decision to take that away from us?

 I'll let The Magistrate's Order speak for how well a "noble" elf would be accepted in Kirkwall. 

Because THAT's what makes or breaks DA2:  The Magistrate's fetch quest.  Do you even have a point here?  The fast majority of the Dwarven and Elven quests in DA:O also illustrate   that those races would be unaccepted in a Human city.  But  that  didn't prevent the inclusion of Origin stories.  in fact it did the opposite.  it enriched them.

 Elves in Origins didn't get to rise above their station through deeds, barring the fact that they lived through the Joining. 

Oh, you're right!  You don't get to be the Hero of Fereldan  if you play an Elf in DA:O.  And  don't get me started on Awakening, where an Elf cannot be the Warden Commander.

robertthebard wrote...
They got to rise to great influence, that they aren't even supposed to have, because they were a Warden. 

They got to be the....Hero of Fereldan.  Just like every other race.  Including the Human Noble, who ALSO couldn't become anything But the Hero of Fereldan.

 

The Dalish origin didn't just wake up one day and say "I'm going to go join the Wardens because I'm bored with life here.", they had a choice, which they didn't really have, since you couldn't tell Duncan to stuff it, and let yourself die or worse from the corruption.  The only City Elf we see in the Kirkwall area from Ferelden was already with the Dalish when they came over, Pol.  IIRC, you can speak to him in the Dalish Origin, he's being taught how to use a bow.  All the refugees we see in the Gallows are human.

Er.... are you trying to make a comparison here?  Really?  You can't even BE an elf in DA2, let alone be an elf, and have a choice of destiny. And what's this have to do with  multiple Origins?  Oh yeah, nothing.  You've shamelessly changed the subject.  <gag>

You know, I totally don't have a clue how to respond to this post.  Answering things you submit is blatantly changing the subject.  Oh, wait, it's me that's blatantly changing the subject, despite your derail of "how it could work".  I can totally see how responding to you was a mistake though, since you're misinformed about a game you evidently loved.  I'm sorry that you couldn't come up with anything better than that last line to comment on why Dalish would be tricky to work into DA 2's story, and so felt it was better to gag on it.  Oh wait, I see what the problem is, you think I'm comparing to something, instead of responding to you.  I'll just link the post you made to show what I was responding to, and then you can go gag some more about it?

Actually, for ease of use this is exactly what I was referring to:  Again, What? Who said they had to? There's Nothing stopping a Dalish Elf Hawke from leaving his clan (like he/she does in DA:O) and then either living with the Dalish outside of Kirkwall, or forging his own path anywhere he wants within Kirkwall. In My Game, Merril lives with her clan, then she moves to the Alienage, then she moves to a Noble estate in Hightown. Hawke's so-called "rise to power" could have easily seen him do the exact same thing. You're not thinking this through.

Somebody isn't thinking it through.  Like you said, Nothing says that a Dalish Hawke can't up and leave his clan, like he did in DA: O, which made you gag when I responded to why the Dalish elf in Origins left his clan.  No comparison, explanation, because you evidently missed that in the Origin story.

Modifié par robertthebard, 17 juin 2012 - 10:09 .

[Yrkoon]

robertthebard wrote...

You know, I totally don't have a clue how to respond to this post.  Answering things you submit is blatantly changing the subject.  Oh, wait, it's me that's blatantly changing the subject,

Yes, in fact it  Was  (and still is) you who's been trying to change the subject.    Me, and just about everyone else on this thread have been discussing the Origins, and the lack of them in DA2, while your last post was about....  God knows what... some tripe about How Humans don't like Dwarves, or how  the Magistrates Orders quest proves that  Elves are not respected.   Irrelevant  nonsense that  is  completely unrelated to the question of whether Origins would  work.

despite your derail of "how it could work".  I can totally see how responding to you was a mistake though,

Translation:  Waah!  

 since you're misinformed about a game you evidently loved.

Nope.  I've made exactly zero false or uninformed statements about DA:O or DA2.  Not sure where this  empty accusation stems from.  Nowhere, is my guess.

I'm sorry that you couldn't come up with anything better than that last line to comment on why Dalish would be tricky to work into DA 2's story,

 Begging your pardon?   before you ever even posted on this thread,  I came here and made a valid  (and still unrefuted) argument on how *perfectly* and *awesomely* a Dalish Origin would work in DA2.   Go back and read this thread before wailing blindly into matters that are beyond your comprehension.

Actually, for ease of use this is exactly what I was referring to:  Again, What? Who said they had to? There's Nothing stopping a Dalish Elf Hawke from leaving his clan (like he/she does in DA:O) and then either living with the Dalish outside of Kirkwall, or forging his own path anywhere he wants within Kirkwall. In My Game, Merril lives with her clan, then she moves to the Alienage, then she moves to a Noble estate in Hightown. Hawke's so-called "rise to power" could have easily seen him do the exact same thing. You're not thinking this through.

Somebody isn't thinking it through.  Like you said, Nothing says that a Dalish Hawke can't up and leave his clan, like he did in DA: O, which made you gag when I responded to why the Dalish elf in Origins left his clan.  No comparison, explanation, because you evidently missed that in the Origin story.

Are you going to actually refute anything being said?

Show me how a Dalish Origin wouldn't work in DA2.  Is there not a Dalish tribe already in the game?  Is there not already Dalish lore (and gameplay) tied to Flemeth?  Does the game not already contain Dalish elves?  Are there not already Dalish Elves inside Kirkwall?  Are there not already Dalish mages in the Game?  In short, given all the groundwork *already* in place right at the start of   chapter 1, There is literally no logical reason to think that a Dalish Origin wouldn't work.


^There you go, I've countered  every single one of your examples on why it wouldn't work.  So no, you don't have  any sort of remaining argument.  Your best bet now, buddy, is to fall back on the shameless apologist's schtick you  first entered this debate with.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 17 juin 2012 - 11:37 .

[TEWR]

Yrkoon wrote...

Wat? Why would you think they'd have to change the lore to allow for a Dwarf Origin in DA2? Does the game require you to play a Mage? Nope. It doesn't. In fact, I've yet to do a mage Hawke playthrough in DA2, and from what I gather from players who Have played Mage Hawkes, the game narrative doesn't even recognize that you're a mage anyway (Mage Hawke is allowed total freedom to fling spells anywhere, including right in front of templars, without any repercussions at all)

No man, perhaps you forgot how DA:O incorporated The different races and their Origins, and how their purpose was simply to lead you into the main storyline, which stood on its own. That's called good writing. Something completely absent in DA2.

And boy, do I drink a lot of it. Created by yours truly.

Anyway.... I'm going to respond to this using primarily if not entirely the theoretical concepts of Dragon Age II as it was being developed.

The game was supposedly centered around the Mage-Templar Conflict/Rise to Power, tied to the family aspect where someone in the family is at risk of being caught by the Templars.

Having an Elven protagonist would quite simply go against the actual setting. No Elf would be allowed to acquire an estate in Hightown legally. Any Elf that lives in Hightown is either A) a part of the brothel, in a relationship with someone influential, C) living there illegally, or D) possibly a servant of some noble.

The nobility in Kirkwall is especially anti-Elven, evident based on some of the quests we see.

It'd really just be too weird. It'd fall into the same line of thought as "Why does a Mage Hawke not get noticed by the Templars?"

The question would then become "Why does an Elven protagonist become able to acquire an estate in Hightown, when no other Elf can?"

Doesn't matter how much coin an Elf has. Humans would just see that the protagonist is an Elf and never allow it.

So that negates the Rise to Power aspect.

Now, I'm sure there could be other reasons why you could gain an estate. Maybe when the Arishok requests your presence, Viscount Dumar gives you an estate in Hightown because of your connections to him.

Though I'm not sure how valid that'd play out, considering Dumar has no authoritative power -- or backbone -- whatsoever.

As for a Dwarf, playing as a Dwarf eliminates the Mage-Templar Conflict based on the personal family connection aspect.

You can still Rise to Power -- Dwarves aren't reviled by humans after all -- but you would have no connection to the Mage-Templar conflict.

Again, based on the theoretical concepts DAII was about.

Additionally, two of the companions are met on the flight out of Lothering. So how would you go about having Aveline be a companion, if you're an Elven or Dwarven protagonist?

Not saying it's entirely impossible, but it'd definitely require a lot of work and in the end, it might have actually hindered the story despite the fact that it allowed more choices.

More choices are always great -- I do want to play as a Dwarven character again -- but they also can't go against the story, setting, and gameplay IMO.


Still, DAII could've had class-based origins, if not race based ones. That would've been fine with me. It's what I expected, going in to the game.

Again, What? Who said they had to? There's Nothing stopping a Dalish Elf Hawke from  leaving his clan  (like he/she does in DA:O) and then either living with the Dalish outside of Kirkwall, or forging his own path anywhere he wants within Kirkwall.

Eh, Hawke's a Fereldan name based on a lineage made by a Human mage. Calling a Dalish Elf protagonist Hawke would just be.... absurd, to say the least.
 

In My Game, Merril lives with her clan, then she moves to the Alienage, then she moves to a Noble estate in Hightown.   Hawke's so-called "rise to power" could have easily seen him do the exact same thing.  You're not thinking this through.

That would require a new human companion that ends up living in Hightown. That'd cost even more resources.

Not to say it's a bad idea, but it's not really feasible. At best, with EA. At worst would be at all if you don't want to run into financial issues.

So while an Elven protagonist wouldn't be able to get to Hightown on their own -- they'd need some real help in that regard -- this idea might work better, but would also come at more of a cost.

Yrkoon wrote...

 Irrelevant  nonsense that  is  completely unrelated to the question of whether Origins would  work.

It's not irrelevant. It goes to the state of mind of the nobility in regards to Elves acquiring titles and property in Hightown. If they're not respected when they live in Lowtown and are successful, they won't be respected no matter how much coin they acquire.

A bloody King had to decree that the Elves could have their own bann, and even that was met with ire.

It would run detrimental to the established setting of DA, if it was to play out straight as DAII did for how you acquire an estate in Hightown.

If you created alternate scenarios for how you do so, it might work better sure.

But I personally maintain that DAII's intended story works best with a human protagonist. And I also maintain that some games in the series will have a set race while others will allow for Origins.

Depends on what works best really, rather then what would be liked the most by the fanbase.

Yrkoon wrote...

Show me how a Dalish Origin wouldn't work in DA2.  Is there not a Dalish tribe already in the game?  Is there not already Dalish lore (and gameplay) tied to Flemeth?

You'd need to figure out a way for how Flemeth -- who wanted to keep an appointment with the Warden and the Dalish have already left Ferelden by Hawke's encounter -- would hand them an amulet containing a piece of her soul. Well, really just how the Dalish could acquire the amulet, when it was in Flemeth's possession.

Again, it probably could be done, but it might come at a cost. Not financial, but story. It might actually make no sense if Flemeth just handed the clan an amulet of hers that required the clan to wait there for a year.

Perhaps, however, you could have little references to the other origins. Maybe Hawke dropped it, and DE PC picked it up and saw some Elven script on the back of it.

And then you go to Sundermount and see Hawke.

Might work. It could work, maybe.

But it's a gamble of long odds, methinks.

Yrkoon wrote....

Oh, you're right!  You don't get to be the Hero of Fereldan  if you play an Elf in DA:O.  And  don't get me started on Awakening, where an Elf cannot be the Warden Commander.

You're a Warden. Race is irrelevant once you're a Warden, because people see you as part of this order of great warriors that are to be respected, no matter their race.

You're a hero to the people because you're a Warden, not because you're an Elf.

A DE protagonist in DAII would have no such excuse as to why they can gain titles or be a noble. Not unless some other influential noble was giving out a decree that they are to receive a title and land.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2012 - 12:59 .