211 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

TEWR, to nitpick one point... The nobles of High Town don't seem to mind a lyrium tattoo'd elf living in a noble manner estate abandoned and destroyed? The fact that Fenris is allowed to squat for near a decade in the house of a noble he helped kill kind of pokes at the theory that nobles would not accept an elven Hawke.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 juin 2012 - 01:50 .

[Yrkoon]

Not to mention that they let an Elf Be the Leader of the Mage circle. And a Dwarf be the leader of a powerful spy agency.

We can argue formalities and technicallities all we want w/ regards to  "what's a noble" but real power in Kirkwall is not "the Viscount", so why are we setting it as the standard to which non-humans will never reach, and therefore players can't be?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 juin 2012 - 02:50 .

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TEWR, to nitpick one point... The nobles of High Town don't seem to mind a lyrium tattoo'd elf living in a noble manner estate abandoned and destroyed? The fact that Fenris is allowed to squat for near a decade in the house of a noble he helped kill kind of pokes at the theory that nobles would not accept an elven Hawke.

It's brought up in-game that he tends to keep to himself and prefers the anonymity. Whispers and rumors went around of his existence, but nothing concrete was known save to Fenris' friends.

Yrkoon wrote...

\\Not to mention that they let an Elf Be the Leader of the Mage circle. And a Dwarf be the leader of a powerful spy agency.

Being the leader of a Circle doesn't grant "nobility". Mages aren't allowed to have titles, though you often see this circumvented by the rich or the determined. Additionally, Orsino has to practically fight tooth and nail just to be heard, due to how corrupt the Circle is.

And Varric is a merchant prince, not a noble. While he lives a rich life yes, he's not a noble.

We can argue formalities and technicallities all we want w/ regards to  "what's a noble" but real power in Kirkwall is not "the Viscount", so why are we setting it as the standard to which non-humans will never reach, and therefore players can't be?

 
Because until we hear of a non-human becoming a noble through their own hard work and not through the decree of a friendly royal, Elves cannot become nobles because the setting is deadset against it.

There are, however, ways to get around that. As I said on the previous page, there are four known ways to live in Hightown.

So perhaps instead of becoming a noble, there should be an Elven equivalent to something rich and powerful in White Chantry Thedas, but not necessarily "noble"?

Although, there doesn't seem to be any indication that such a thing could happen. If it can, we need to learn about it a bit. The Merchant's Guild is run entirely by Dwarves while the nobility in Kirkwall are all human -- unless a human takes an Elf to be their lover.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2012 - 03:02 .

[wsandista]

Yrkoon wrote...

Not to mention that they let an Elf Be the Leader of the Mage circle. And a Dwarf be the leader of a powerful spy agency.

We can argue formalities and technicallities all we want w/ regards to  "what's a noble" but real power in Kirkwall is not "the Viscount", so why are we setting it as the standard to which non-humans will never reach, and therefore players can't be?

The reason they removed race selection was to have a set-protagonist(yes DA2 fanbros Hawke is a set-protagonist). I don't really see how anyone can argue for any other reason(besides laziness) that DA2 didn't have race selection. It was not a good idea to remove race selection, but then almost every change made in DA2 was not a good idea.

[Issala]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TEWR, to nitpick one point... The nobles of High Town don't seem to mind a lyrium tattoo'd elf living in a noble manner estate abandoned and destroyed? The fact that Fenris is allowed to squat for near a decade in the house of a noble he helped kill kind of pokes at the theory that nobles would not accept an elven Hawke.

It's brought up in-game that he tends to keep to himself and prefers the anonymity. Whispers and rumors went around of his existence, but nothing concrete was known save to Fenris' friends.

All those bodies on the floor of his mansion? They're not just leftovers from seven years ago.
Plus Isabela kept the tax collectors away.

[robertthebard]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TEWR, to nitpick one point... The nobles of High Town don't seem to mind a lyrium tattoo'd elf living in a noble manner estate abandoned and destroyed? The fact that Fenris is allowed to squat for near a decade in the house of a noble he helped kill kind of pokes at the theory that nobles would not accept an elven Hawke.

It's brought up in-game that he tends to keep to himself and prefers the anonymity. Whispers and rumors went around of his existence, but nothing concrete was known save to Fenris' friends.

Of course, anyone that ran Aveline and Fenris at the same time would get the banter about how Aveline found some of Jeven's reports about Fenris being there, or that she's shuffling patrols to avoid his squatter mansion.  It's not like the Captain of the Guard is anyone official, after all.  /sarcasm

Spoilers:

In the quest The Magistrate's Order, you are to retrieve his son from some ruins.  Once you get to the area, you meet some guards, and Lia's father, a wealthy merchant elf, who, if you have Varric in the party, has total faith in the fact that the law isn't going to care that elf children are being killed by the Magistrate's son.  Of course, the fact that he's an elf probably means he's lying about the inaction of the father, right?  Of course, that would mean that the son is too, since he'll tell you about all the elf children he's murdered, and still his father keeps him from prosecution.  Whether it's to protect the boy, or the position, he's not going to pursue it because it's his son, and it's only elves.  How is it that an elf is going to generate enough respect, without the benefit of being a Grey Warden, as our Origin elves were, to rise above that racial hatred?

/spoiler

To paraphrase another popular figure in DA lore:  You can dress up your pets if you want, but don't pretend that this is a proper wedding.  All the possible story/plot holes that go with the story have been laid out, twice now, by two different people, concerning trying to do it the same as Origins did.  For the way the story is written, it wouldn't work.  We can get all snarky about it if that's how it's got to be, but it's simple, in Origins, your elves were more than just elves, they were Grey Wardens.  Considered honored guests in Orzammar, and in all the Noble houses.  That is a far cry from being some random elf that was trying to escape from the Blight.  If that fact is to be ignored just to say "It can be done", then really, there's not much to talk about.

Modifié par robertthebard, 18 juin 2012 - 03:16 .

[Dakota Strider]

By all rights, DA2 should really have been DA Kirkwall, an expansion to DAO, much as Awakening was. Then, the Origins would not have been such a big issue, the shorter game play would not have been an issue, and the lack of choices would not have been such an issue. The developers could have had the chance "to try something different", and players' expectations would not have been raised so high. Because, that is basically all DA2 felt like, a large expansion, that did not quite feel like a whole game.

[brushyourteeth]

Dakota Strider wrote...

By all rights, DA2 should really have been DA Kirkwall, an expansion to DAO, much as Awakening was. Then, the Origins would not have been such a big issue, the shorter game play would not have been an issue, and the lack of choices would not have been such an issue. The developers could have had the chance "to try something different", and players' expectations would not have been raised so high. Because, that is basically all DA2 felt like, a large expansion, that did not quite feel like a whole game.

It's amazing how much I agree with this.

Which isn't to say that I didn't enjoy DAII, because I really did. But as a sequel it was not what I was hoping for.

[Arthur Cousland]

Most of the posts here sum up the reason for lack of origin stories in DA2: Bioware wanted to tell the story of Hawke, they wanted a voiced protagonist (which would be harder with multiple playable races), a vast majority of Origins players played as humans and etc.

My original DA2 import was as an elven arcane warrior, but I later went back and did a human arcane warrior for the Hawke family connections, and extra dialogue. I also had fun as a dwarf commoner rogue. It didn't matter to me that race didn't matter much once in Ostagar; I could see that my warden was a dwarf or elf, and I liked that they were the minority race that would go on to save the humans from the blight. I especially liked how my short dwarven tank looked in cut scenes, when standing next to his human companions, as it reminded me that I was playing a fantasy game, pretty much the same as if I was playing a pointy-eared elven mage.  Playing as the non-human races was against the norm, and I like being different.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 18 juin 2012 - 04:59 .

[Yrkoon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

We can argue formalities and technicallities all we want w/ regards to  "what's a noble" but real power in Kirkwall is not "the Viscount", so why are we setting it as the standard to which non-humans will never reach, and therefore players can't be?

 
Elves cannot become nobles because the setting is deadset against it.

What's this "noble" tripe you keep bringing up?

LOL  lets get one thing straight before we get carried away with our imaginitive theories.  The stated  goal of this game (stated on the game box, in fact)  is  "Rise to Power", not "Rise to Nobility".  So no,  Ethereal, the fact that an Elf can't become a noble is not relevant.... at all. 

You might have half a disputable argument if there was anything whatsoever in the Setting  (or the lore) that states that only a Human can become the "Champion of Kirkwall", but even then, you won't be able to overcome the fact that the title itself doesn't  actually gain you a damn thing in the game, aside from maybe the right to engage  Orsino and Merideth in a 2 minute long debate  (but not actually affect its outcome) at the start of Chapter 3.  Which means the  title itself is not of vital importance to the story, so even if they were to allow for different Protagonist races and then rule that only a Human can be Champion of Kirkwall while all other races have to settle for being  "Heros of Kirkwall", or  "Friends of Kirkwall", or "Saviors of Kirkwall" or whatever, it would still work, and work well.


PS:

Because until we hear of a non-human becoming a noble through their own hard work and not through the decree of a friendly royal,

Doesn't Bartrand have an estate in Hightown?   And doesn't Varric possess the power to SELL estates in Hightown to people?   Who's Royal Decree did  those two  non-humans acquire?  Hmm?



But enough of this navel-gazing drivel.  Lets get back to Reality.

wsandista wrote...
The reason they removed race selection was to have a set-protagonist(yes DA2 fanbros Hawke is a set-protagonist). I don't really see how anyone can argue for any other reason(besides laziness) that DA2 didn't have race selection. It was not a good idea to remove race selection, but then almost every change made in DA2 was not a good idea.

Yeah, ^ This.  Money and time are the reason for the removal of Race selections and Origins.

And you all are grotesquely underestimating Bioware's writers if you think that they couldn't, if they had the time and money, create 6 different Origins and place them seamlessly within  the already existing DA2  storyline. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 juin 2012 - 09:54 .

[nightscrawl]

Yrkoon wrote...

Only if  the reader concludes that they're actual  honest reasons, rather than, you know,   justifications and/or excuses.


"We wanted to try something different"  <-----  Read the article.   This is  actually one of the so-called reasons they give.   A totally ridiculous answer, since  it's false. I can give you a huge laundry list of Past Bioware games (and bioware sequels) that  were just like DA2 in that they didn't contain multiple Origins.   So no. . They were NOT trying anything "different" by making DA2 only have one  pathetically  linear prologue.   What Nonsense.

I'll open by saying that since (1) you don't work at Bioware, and (2) these are just your opinions, you certainly can't testify with regard to truth, but only rather truthiness. So I think it is wrong that you are basically calling Bioware, or their representatives at PAX East, liars.

Since I posted it, transcribed it, and therefore watched it numerous times, I think you're taking this out of context. I don't believe they are referring to something different from the whole gamut of past Bioware games, they are referring to something different than what they had just been working on for the past six years, which you left out of your quoting of the statement.

Considering that, I really don't think it's unreasonable for the devs to have wanted to go in a bit of a different direction with the same franchise. If they were really that burned out by working on DAO, it seems to me that the other alternative would have been to design a game in an another world entirely and move away from the DAverse. But they didn't do that. They wanted to stay in Thedas.

As polarizing as DA2 has been, whether or not people like this feature or that feature, or this and that change from DAO, it undeniably did advance the story in Thedas, which they are going to build on for future games.

The second  "reason" they give is a little better, but it still doesn't pass a truth test.  Or a logic test.   The second reason is: "We put multiple Origins in the first game  in order to better introduce players to  the  game world. We didn't need to do this for DA2 because our focus was no longer on introducing people to the game world.  Instead, our focus was on introducing them to the game world's.... evolution."    Translation:  Screw the newcomers.  No Intro-to-the-world for you!.   Yeah.  Actually,  When you can decipher what they're trying to say here, let me know.  In the meantime, I'm still trying to figure out  how game world evolution  suddenly rules out the notion of allowing the player to choose  from multiple Origins.

There are two points to take away from their original statement.

The first is that DAO was certainly an introduction to Thedas; all it's diverse peoples, cultures, and religions; it's conflicts; and in particular with a focus on the nation of Ferelden. I believe, and have believed this since I finished the game the first time, that along with a sort of "developer refresh," DA2 was a bridge game, and was intentionally designed to be a bridge game. It was also a testing ground for introducing the voiced PC and dialogue wheel-style choices into the franchise. Whether, or how much, they succeeded is certainly a matter of opinion. In a way, in being a bridge game, DA2 was probably the best time to introduce players to these things, because they can now be refined and fine tuned so you don't have situations where you "punched a guy when I just said 'I like cake'" as Mike mentions.

For the next game, they have the opportunity of keeping these elements from DA2 (which we know they are going to do), and go big, perhaps really big, without having to worry about blowing players away with something the same scope as DAO, with several new features that are totally unexpected.

But really, I think we ALL know the real reason  they didn't put multiple prologues in DA2. Time and Money.  It takes six times as long, and costs six times as much, to make six origins than  it does to make  just one.

I do agree here that time and money did contribute, but I don't think it was the sole deciding factor.

This goes to my second point. I don't understand why no one ever just imagines that they actually wanted to make a single-race-centric story for DA2. If you go with their concept of "What about someone who wasn't in charge of the army [at Ostagar]? What happened to them?" then it would have no dwarves or elves, because there were no dwarves or elves (aside from servants) who fought there.

And too -- here is where the time and money comes in -- I certainly don't believe it's as simple as giving us free reign in the character creation screen, like you had with Neverwinter Nights, to make whatever race you want. Because the various races are so divided in Thedas, with the potential for great animosity among them (particularly elves and humans), there has to be a story reason for any given race to be there.

I've seen people argue for elves in DA2 citing the elven refugees that we see in Lothering in DAO. Again, they did not fight in the army, they are simply refugees. Even if Hawke is a mage, the family component of Carver having been at Ostagar, perhaps putting in your mind the image of him rushing home to try and get his family out when the army was routed, gives a connection to that story element that they wanted to preserve.


In the end, people can cite sales figures, reviews, and all sorts of other things. If DA2 had not been successful enough, we would not be getting another game**. But the powers that be, the head honchos, at Bioware and EA apparently think that it did do decently enough to warrant another go. Make of that what you will.

** Which, technically, hasn't been announced or confirmed yet.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 18 juin 2012 - 09:58 .

[TEWR]

Yrkoon wrote...

Doesn't Bartrand have an estate in Hightown? Who's Royal Decree did he acquire? Hmm?

I said on the previous page Dwarves were allowed to acquire an estate in Hightown, and elaborated after that segment of my post that you quoted that I was specifically referring to Elves.

My apologies if I was unclear on that.

Yrkoon wrote...

LOL lets get one thing straight before we get carried away with our imaginitive theories. The stated goal of this game (stated on the game box, in fact) is "Rise to Power", not "Rise to Nobility". So no, Ethereal, the fact that an Elf can't become a noble is not relevant.... at all.

So then you'd be content with not being a noble, so long as you had the Elven equivalent of something that brings with it a decent lifestyle -- better then a slummed out Alienage at any rate -- and money. And that's assuming that something like that exists for Elves in human cities.

Humans have the nobility, Dwarves in Kirkwall have the Merchant's Guild, and Elves.... well we don't know what the hell they might have. What social strata is there for Elves? Where in the lore we've seen has any non-Warden/non-Tevinter Elf gained something equivalent to nobility, sans the noble aspect?

Nowhere.

That isn't to say it doesn't exist, but if it does I'm having a hard time myself trying to figure out how an Elf would gain something like that in a human city.

You've got Lowtown and you've got Hightown. Hightown consists of humans and Dwarves. Elves aren't able to own property up there. I still maintain that the nobility wouldn't allow an Elf to gain an estate up there -- even if that Elf wasn't trying to be noble, but just gain a decent living.

And then Lowtown is a downtrodden cesspool of criminal activity and shoddy homes.

Unless there's a Midtown where it's between the slums and the estates in terms of living conditions, I just can't fathom how an Elf could acquire an estate in Hightown -- trying to be a noble or not.

And power, however, implies there is influence. Short of being a Grey Warden, Elves have no influence in society.

At best, you'd gain such influence when you're named Champion. But I doubt even that would happen, simply because to the human noble's mind in Thedas Elves and titles don't mix. And to some, it's because they don't see Elves as people.

They're just.... things. You see them sold into slavery -- by Orlais and Ferelden -- and see their words as being taken for less then bronto ****.

If they're not respected as people, they cannot live like people.

Yrkoon wrote...

You might have half a disputable argument if there was anything whatsoever in the Setting (or the lore) that states that only a Human can become the "Champion of Kirkwall", but even then, you won't be able to overcome the fact that the title itself doesn't actually gain you a damn thing in the game, aside from maybe the right to engage Orsino and Merideth in a 2 minute long debate (but not actually affect its outcome) at the start of Chapter 3. Which means the title itself is not of vital importance to the story, so even if they were to allow for different Protagonist races and then rule that only a Human can be Champion of Kirkwall while all other races have to settle for being "Heros of Kirkwall", or "Friends of Kirkwall", or "Saviors of Kirkwall" or whatever, it would still work, and work well.

It's a title. Like any title, Elves cannot gain it through their own means. Unless they are a Grey Warden or in Tevinter. The former negates their Elvenhood while the latter focuses on survival of the fittest and power = glory.

And the title is, in theory, important to the story. That the game failed to live up to it and appropriately display it is, while sad and unfortunate, irrelevant to its intended importance in the lore.

And what you said -- "Heroes", "Saviors", "Friends" -- would IMO seem like it's deliberately trying to cater to those who want Origin stories for the sake of their inclusion. And IMO, that would run detrimental to the lore, setting, story, and possibly gameplay.

And that's exactly what I want to avoid.

Yrkoon wrote...

And you all are grotesquely underestimating Bioware's writers if you think that they couldn't, if they had the time and money, create 6 different Origins and place them seamlessly within the already existing DA2 storyline.

I don't doubt that they could create 6 origin stories, but I do doubt that it would mesh well with what we currently know of the setting. And I don't doubt that time and money certainly contributed to DAII, but as was said above I don't think it was the sole deciding factor either.

At any rate, I'm not against more origin stories. I just find that DAII's intended story really and truly only would've worked with a human protagonist. Based on what we were given, sure it's easy to state that origins would've worked. But what we were given =/= to what was intended, per developer comments and marketing -- of which the former tended to echo what was said in the latter.

I'm laboring under the assumption that some iterations in the series will have race selection while others will have a set race.

1) DAO -- race selection
2) DA2 -- set race
3) DA3 -- race selection
4) DA4 -- race selection
5) DA5 -- set race
6) DA6 -- set race.

Something like that anyway.

Is it optimism? Sure. Is it blind optimism? Maybe.

But they have said the story is about Thedas and what happens to it and not any one character -- which one could argue is something that supports race inclusion, all the time. I'd find it to be a wrong standpoint, but it could be argued -- and so I think that's what they're going to go for.

Question for you Yrkoon: Though you probably wouldn't have been as satisfied by it, would you at least have been satisfied by class-based origins in DAII? At least 2 for non-Mage/Mage, but preferably one for each class -- with the two non-mage ones taking place at Ostagar in different areas?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2012 - 10:03 .

[nightscrawl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So then you'd be content with not being a noble, so long as you had the Elven equivalent of something that brings with it a decent lifestyle -- better then a slummed out Alienage at any rate -- and money. And that's assuming that something like that exists for Elves in human cities.

Humans have the nobility, Dwarves in Kirkwall have the Merchant's Guild, and Elves.... well we don't know what the hell they might have. What social strata is there for Elves? Where in the lore we've seen has any non-Warden/non-Tevinter Elf gained something equivalent to nobility, sans the noble aspect?

This is an interesting topic you've got going here. I don't have much to contribute, but I will point out that Lia's father, Elren (who I think is a merchant?), does seem to be a bit of a higher status among the elves. His line "For all my coin, I'm still only an elf to these shemlen," seems to suggest this. Of course, as we see in that example, it doesn't gain him anything.

I'll also add that the term "nobility" can be a bit iffy. What is it defined by? Living in Hightown? The ability to have a title or hold high office (in this case a mage could never legally be nobility). Simply having a lot of money? The respect/fear of minions (or lower classes)?

According to dictionary.com...

1. distinguished by rank or title.

2. pertaining to persons so distinguished.

3. of, belonging to, or constituting a hereditary class that has special social or political status in a country or state; of or pertaining to the aristocracy.

Synonyms: highborn, aristocratic; patrician, blue-blooded.

Also, as we know, it is not unheard of for common/low-born persons to be raised to noble status by being given a title, as Loghain was. The Ice and Fire novels basically have the royal schemers using titles and castles as bargaining chips and payment for loyalty, and not even necessarily valorous deeds like Loghain's. I'm sure GRRM exaggerated somewhat, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if such things did happen in real life as well. Thinking along those lines, anyone could be made a noble, or the founder of a house, simply by being given a title by the reigning person in whatever nation, kingdom, empire, city-state (Kirkwall), which could, hypothetically, be anybody.


Edit...
I thought I might add that people seem to forget that Hawke is nobility by birth, because of Leandra. She only has to reclaim the house with the money from the Deep Roads Expedition and BOOM, fully established in Kirkwall. As far as Bartrand buying the mansion in Hightown, well he is also from dwarven noble house Tethras. The fact that, according to Orzammar and their traditions he's lower than a brand because he's now a surface dwarf, might not necessarily mean much to humans, if anything at all.

So the title might have more influence than mere money.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 18 juin 2012 - 11:19 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Just to add to the nobility argument as pertaining to real history.

"King not I, nor prince nor duke nor count either, but I am the lord of Coucy!"

Some ruling families recognized that power didn't reside in titles but land and castles.

[Yrkoon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I said on the previous page Dwarves were allowed to acquire an estate in Hightown, and elaborated after that segment of my post that you quoted that I was specifically referring to Elves.

Well?  Just saying... so now  we've established that a Dwarf fits.  So lets add a Dwarf Origin.  Great.  That leaves one race left.  Lets discuss it now.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So then you'd be content with not being a noble, so long as you had the Elven equivalent of something that brings with it a decent lifestyle -- better then a slummed out Alienage at any rate -- and money. And that's assuming that something like that exists for Elves in human cities.

Yes?  And isn't  the lifestyle a  given?  We'd be talking about an Elf who  goes on the  Deep Roads expedition  (there's your money), and then later drives the Qunari out of Kirkwall  (there's your influence, respect and  status)

Not sure why Nobility matters.  Nothing more is needed than the above.  Again, it's rise to POWER, not rise to Nobility.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
It's a title. Like any title, Elves cannot gain it through their own means.

Where are you getting this from?  Show me the Codex entry that states it's a human only title.  And then be prepared for a counter, because lets not forget who GIVES you that title..... even if you're a friggin BLOOD MAGE

And IMO, that would run detrimental to the lore, setting, story, and possibly gameplay.

How so?  Replace Champion with hero and  nothing changes.    Not the setting, Not even the lore. 

And it doesn't matter anyway, especially because of the lore of Thedas, which is littered with Tradition-breaking figures already. Orlais used to not allow women to be Chevaliers, until an exceptionally talented woman came and shattered the status quo.    Hell, DA2 already breaks a tradition.  There are no more Mage Circles in Thedas.

Question for you Yrkoon: Though you probably wouldn't have been as satisfied by it, would you at least have been satisfied by class-based origins in DAII? At least 2 for non-Mage/Mage, but preferably one for each class -- with the two non-mage ones taking place at Ostagar in different areas?

  Sure.  It would have been an authentic compromise, and this thread would not exist today.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 juin 2012 - 11:31 .

[FaWa]

I vote for two origin stories per class. Boom-DAO's count has been matched.

I can think of five right now:

Rouge-
Slum-life

Warrior-
Noble something

Warrior/Rouge-
Regular Homebody

Mage-
Circle Mage
Apostate on the run

In all 5 scenarios you live life until omg darkspawn but omg yay flemeth is pulling a Duncan and saving us just in time

Modifié par FaWa, 18 juin 2012 - 02:27 .

[wsandista]

DP

Modifié par wsandista, 18 juin 2012 - 02:42 .

[wsandista]

wsandista wrote...

To make non-human Origins work

Dwarf: You are a Dwarf running from a group of darkspwan pursuing you. You join up with Aveline, her husband, to combat the darkspawn only to be overwhelmed. Flemeth swoops down and rescues you from certain death. she then requests that you take an item to some Dalish in the Free Marches, and informs Aveline that her husband is dying. You and Aveline head to Kirkwall where you are barred from entering. An acquaintance of your family makes a deal with a mercenary company and a smuggler for you and Aveline to be smuggled into the city.

Elf: You are a Dalish elf scouting for your tribe when darkspawn attack you in a forest and kill a variable companion depending on your class. Flemeth swoops down and saves you and a lady knight and her husband from the darkspawn. She then requests that you take an item to some Dalish in the Free Marches, and tells the lady knight her husband is dying. Your clan sends you with your variable companion and the lady knight(Aveline)to the city closest to the tribe of Dalish. You arrive in Kirkwall but are barred from entering. You have to side with either mercenaries or smugglers who offer to help you after an ex-Dalish sets you up with them.

Kossith: You are a Kossith mercenary(Tal-Vashoth) working with a Mage and a Warrior to stop a wave of darkspawn from destroying a small town. During the battle Aveline and Wesley join you, nut Wesley gets injured and a variable companion dies. Flemeth swoops down and saves you from the darkspawn. She requests that you take an amulet to some Dalish in the Free Marches, and informs Aveline that Wesley is dying. You travel to Kirkwall where you are not allowed to enter. A thug sets you up with either a mercenary company or a smuggler(in exchange for a finders fee) who get you into Kirkwall.

After the origins the game can play almost exactly the same, with the differences being a few dialogue lines, just like in DAO.

FaWa wrote...

I vote for two origin stories per class. Boom-DAO's count has been matched.

I can think of five right now:

Rouge-
Slum-life

Warrior-
Noble something

Warrior/Rouge-
Regular Homebody

Mage-
Circle Mage
Apostate on the run

In all 5 scenarios you live life until omg darkspawn but omg yay flemeth is pulling a Duncan and saving us just in time

Mage
Circle Mage
Apostate

Warrior
Militia
Mercenary

Rogue
Thug
Spy

I'll take it one step further with a race origin for every race

Elf-Dalish
Dwarf-Surface Dwarf
Kossith-Sten(or other Qunari Leader)
Human-Chasind

Modifié par wsandista, 18 juin 2012 - 02:42 .

[nightscrawl]

^ Still doesn't take into account that they (Bioware) appear to have wanted the Lothering connection to the first game.

[wsandista]

nightscrawl wrote...

^ Still doesn't take into account that they (Bioware) appear to have wanted the Lothering connection to the first game.

You are never in Lothering in DA2, you see it in the distance but you never go there. After leaving, Lothering gets mentioned a few times and has maybe 5 minutes of dialogue dedicated to it.

That being said, they could have connected the Kossith to Lothering, had the Elf be by Lothering, or had the Dwarf running through Lothering.

[brushyourteeth]

wsandista wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

^ Still doesn't take into account that they (Bioware) appear to have wanted the Lothering connection to the first game.

You are never in Lothering in DA2, you see it in the distance but you never go there. After leaving, Lothering gets mentioned a few times and has maybe 5 minutes of dialogue dedicated to it.

That being said, they could have connected the Kossith to Lothering, had the Elf be by Lothering, or had the Dwarf running through Lothering.

It's true - it wouldn't be the first time a Qunari had passed through Lothering. Maybe it was someone tracking Sten? We saw elven refugees in Lothering in DA:O (the bridge bandits had stolen their stuff) and we saw dwarven merchants passing through also (Bodahn and Sandal, but they weren't necessarily the last to do it). Sounds reasonable to me.

[Vormaerin]

I'm not sure what's being argued here. Of course they could have altered the story to once again have an entirely cosmetic and irrelevant race choice.

Elves would be the biggest problem, but given how much violence they do to the storyline to allow PC mages, I can't honestly say that an elf PC would be any more egregiously lore destructive. There's be some problem with the Dwarf or Elf being the Champion, but the nature of that title could me massaged I'm sure.

So, yeah, if you wanted to run through the exact same dialogues/voices, etc except being able to say "ooh, I'm an elf", it could have been done. However, if you actually wanted the game modified so that it actually mattered what race you were, fat chance. The game was already severely short on zots. They couldn't have pulled more resources from the story side if they wanted to.

Might've cost more art and cinematics resources even still, since you'd need elf and dwarf clothes and probably different angles for certain scenes. 

Modifié par Vormaerin, 18 juin 2012 - 04:59 .

[ChaosAgentLoki]

Well, personally speaking, most of the origins sucked anyways. The only ones I actually enjoyed were the Dwarf Commoner (I think that's the right name) and the City Elf. So, I wasn't really that sad to see them go.

However, I can also see how they'd be missed and really do not understand why Bioware didn't include them. It could've been costs or any other number of reasons that have probably already been mentioned. That doesn't mean it was the best decision, or that what they did was right. It was their gamble and it was clearly one that probably didn't pay off as much as they would've liked. I'm not entirely sure since I don't have all the numbers surrounding this game.

On a different topic did anyone notice that DA2 actually seemed like it was a game built around the concept of a Human Commoner origin that was missing from DA:O?

[freche]

Jerrybnsn wrote...
... customization, exploration and tactical, realistic combat...

O_o
I must have played a different version of DAO. The one I played had quite limited customization, not much exploration, and borderline hack&slash combat.

[robertthebard]

freche wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...
... customization, exploration and tactical, realistic combat...

O_o
I must have played a different version of DAO. The one I played had quite limited customization, not much exploration, and borderline hack&slash combat.

The tactical combat arguement always makes me smile at the amount of nostalgia that clouds the actual circumstances.  Yeah, it's pretty tactical to go through the effort of setting up a counter ambush, only to have your whole party teleport right to the center of the enemy's ambush if there's a cutscene, which of course, for most of the major battles where tactics would really matter, there was.  I'm too lazy to research it, but I have to wonder how many of the people that cite tactical combat actually had negative posts about that in DA: O.

Customization in these discussions always revolves around making Morrigan wear heavy armor, and use a greatsword instead of being a mage, for example.  While there are parts of the customization angle I can buy into, such as having ranged weapons on Warriors, some of it just didn't matter to me, Morrigan was always a mage in my parties, and Leliana was always a rogue, now, she might be ranged one time, and melee another, but she never wore heavy armor and swung a great sword around, even with the respec mod installed.

Regarding exploration, what?  Every ambush happened in recycled environments, although there were a few variations to pick from.  There were maybe 4 side quests in the game with unique locations, and they were also in recycled areas.  This is, of course, overlooked, since it was DA: O that did it.  I'm not overly concerned about making DA 2 look like a smash hit, it's really not, but I am concerned with at least factual estimations of both games, which doesn't happen a lot.  DA: O fanpersons have rose colored glasses about all the faults with DA: O when discussing DA 2.  Some of the things listed as faults in DA 2 are lauded in DA: O, despite them being about the same.  Recycled areas, for example, and exploration.  Even in the Deep Roads, it's very linear exploration.  There are no areas that aren't tied into the quest, or getting to the quest areas, and I can only recall a couple of side quests, none of which opened up any areas that weren't related.  The Deep Roads are a very big place, and even with Stone Prisoner installed, we don't see much of them.  But hey, that's exploration, right?