211 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

I guess what I'm most confused about is what players think having only one available race option actually does to improve the game. One could argue that adding other options takes away resources from the rest of the game, but DAII was significantly shorter and less detailed than DA:O, if my memory serves me right. The game didn't suffer at all for the additional racial options and in a lot of player's opinions (including mine) it was one of the best features of the franchise until it was dropped.

We were told at the time that the devs just wanted to tell Hawke's story, and Hawke happened to be a human. If that's true, having a set protagonist should mean they're open to sometimes telling the story of a dwarf, kossith, fex, or elf. But that won't happen because people are hung up on humans.

... I still fail to see how having only one option available to us improves the game. I found Hawke no more immersive than the Warden and oftentimes less so. Just one player's experience, but there you go.

[Yrkoon]

brushyourteeth wrote...

... I still fail to see how having only one option available to us improves the game.

Because it doesn't improve the game. It only has the potential to improve it, provided the freed resources from not having to create and incorporate multiple player races actually goes, as you say,  towards enriching the game's other aspects.

But we didn't get that for DA2,  did we.  Instead, they went ahead and cut out multiple player races and their origin stories, then they  cut out level design and grotesquely reduced explorable areas and maps, then  they cut out Companion customization, then  they cut  out item descriptions, then  they cut out the top down camera, then they  cut out the skill trees, then  they reduced the Bestiary, then they decided to not waste with releasing a tool kit.

And the result is plain for all to see: a hollow soulless shell of a game. A completely lesser experience to DA:O

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 juin 2012 - 07:50 .

[Issala]

The problem with having multiple races in a game is that in the wide view of things -- how the majority of people who own the game play that game -- it doesn't matter because eight times out of ten gamers are always going to pick the default human. How many people who played Dragon Age played as a Cousland only? Look at Skyrim -- I hate to use it as an example for something because it's used as an example for everything nowadays -- but in Skyrim you had even more race options.
And so pretty much everyone picked a Nord.
Then there's the argument that beyond their origin stories, being a different race in DA:O didn't really amount to much.
Most people don't like elves or dwarves. They're silly and short. So why spend resources implementing them into a story when you can just slap a bearded man on the cover with melons for biceps, and everyone will eat it up?

[Yrkoon]

Semhaine wrote...

The problem with having multiple races in a game is that in the wide view of things -- how the majority of people who own the game play that game -- it doesn't matter because eight times out of ten gamers are always going to pick the default human. How many people who played Dragon Age played as a Cousland only? Look at Skyrim -- I hate to use it as an example for something because it's used as an example for everything nowadays -- but in Skyrim you had even more race options.
And so pretty much everyone picked a Nord.

Proof?

Not that it matters.  Your argument is nonsense anyway.   if Bioware decided to scrap Origins because the vast majority of players simply played the default Cousland in the first game then tell us why they decided to devote   an entire third of DA2's  Character skills list  to the Mage class, instead of, you know, doing the opposite:  scrapping the mage class all together since 80% of DA:O players didn't play them. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 juin 2012 - 08:08 .

[Vormaerin]

brushyourteeth wrote...
... I still fail to see how having only one option available to us improves the game. I found Hawke no more immersive than the Warden and oftentimes less so. Just one player's experience, but there you go.

It depends on whether or not you buy into what I consider a cosmetic shell game.   IMHO, you only have one choice in DAO also:  being 'the warden" completely trumps every other aspect of your character.   You act, talk, and are treated exactly the same whether you are a human nobleman victim of a murderous plot or you are a ghetto raised elf woman wanted for murdering a noble.  Because you are "the warden."

As I said in the other thread, I consider the origins to be the roleplaying equivalent of a sucker punch:  they set you up with interesting options and then say "but they don't matter, hahaha."

Hawke was a defined protagonist, but the story clearly wasn't polished and finished so you didn't get the payoff that comes from having a defined protagonist.  The way the story ended up being presented, Hawke was almost a secondary figure to everything going on around him or her.  Instead of playing off of Hawke, the story continuously stripped Hawke of connection to it (the steady erosion of his family, the NPC's plots being more important than any of his own, etc). 


The more choices that you give the player that actually matter, the less content you are can provide for the given amount of resources.   If it actually matters whether you are a dwarf with no previous contact with humans or the surface world vs a woman raised in the heart of Ferelden politics as the daughter of a powerful lord, then the developers need to provide a lot more dialogue and different scenes to make that pay off.    Six parallel tracks arent' going to run as far as one single track, even if they merge as often as possible.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 19 juin 2012 - 08:08 .

[Issala]

Yrkoon wrote...

Semhaine wrote...

The problem with having multiple races in a game is that in the wide view of things -- how the majority of people who own the game play that game -- it doesn't matter because eight times out of ten gamers are always going to pick the default human. How many people who played Dragon Age played as a Cousland only? Look at Skyrim -- I hate to use it as an example for something because it's used as an example for everything nowadays -- but in Skyrim you had even more race options.
And so pretty much everyone picked a Nord.

Proof?

Not that it matters.  Your argument is nonsense anyway.   if Bioware decided to scrap Origins because the vast majority simply played the default Cousland then tell us why  an entire third of DA2's  Character skills list is devoted to the Mage class. 

Do you spit on everyone as a matter of principle, or is that just a reflex?

Not that it matters. Your strange sense of superiority is nonsense anyway.
I really have no desire to explain anything to you. You're just all fired up for no reason at all. People picking default characters in not the sole reason BioWare offed the origin stories  -- but it could be a factor to think about when making games designed to appeal to everyone at once, albeit even a small one. I was just pointing something out that I didn't think anyone else had brought up already.

And obviously I wasn't even being entirely serious. I think the last bit of my post that you snipped off would have made that clear.

Modifié par Semhaine, 19 juin 2012 - 08:11 .

[Vormaerin]

Semhaine wrote...

Do you spit on everyone as a matter of principle, or is that just a reflex?

Not that it matters. Your strange sense of superiority is nonsense anyway.
I really have no desire to explain anything to you. You're just all fired up for no reason at all. People picking default characters in not the sole reason BioWare offed the origin stories  -- but it could be a factor to think about when making games designed to appeal to everyone at once, albeit even a small one. I was just pointing something out that I didn't think anyone else had brought up already.

Its reflexive as far as I can tell from observation.

Anyway, there is some confusion about metrics and their use.  Bioware doesn't make decisions about including origins or not "because 80% of players don't use them."   Metrics are support for decisions more than the causation.   The thinking was probably more like   "hmm, we want to tell a very unique story of events over a ten year period from a particular perspective.   That would be easier if we had  a defined viewpoint.   Think that will be a problem?"    "Some folks will be unhappy, but there are lots of successful games with defined protagonists.  Besides, 80% of our players only played the human noble.  So it should be fine."

[Yrkoon]

Semhaine wrote...
 I was just pointing something out that I didn't think anyone else had brought up already.

So you missed the first 3 pages of this thread,  LOL

Semhaine wrote...
 You're just all fired up for no reason at all. People picking default characters in not the sole reason BioWare offed the origin stories -- but it could be a factor to think about when making games designed to appeal to everyone at once, albeit even a small one. I was just pointing something out that I didn't think anyone else had brought up already.

And obviously I wasn't even being entirely serious. I think the last bit of my post that you snipped off would have made that clear.

Spare us.  You don't even have the Developers on your side here.  Not a single one of them has even indirectly claimed that they scrapped origins and player races because of lack of usage/interest in them.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 juin 2012 - 08:21 .

[Lasien]

Melca36 wrote...

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

I will say this, people who whine about the voiceless characters obviously are too lazy or lack the imagination to play that sort of game. <_<

Not sure if serious... 

(In case you are): It's always refreshing seeing this 'argument' appear again and again and again. Not all people who complained about a silent PC did it because they are lazy and/or lack an imagination. Please get over yourself. Some people, like me, saw it as the natural step for BioWare games. Not because I'm lazy or lack imagination. I've always treated every BioWare game as a 3rd person game and have wanted a voiced PC for some time. Again, not because I'm lazy or lack imagination. Just that for my playstyle it fits very well.  

And you have the right how you wish to play. I have nothing against characters with voices. I loved playing Hawke.

What I am tired of is the voiceless character being bashed constantly. 

My only problem with the voiceless protag was the same problem I had with the voiced one. The reactions to the dialog tell me I didn't say what I thought I did. With the voiceless, there were many instances in which I got a hostile reaction to a dialog choice that didn't make any sense to me. The same with the voiced - Hawke frequently said something different from the representative text on the wheel.

[Issala]

Yrkoon wrote...

Semhaine wrote...
 I was just pointing something out that I didn't think anyone else had brought up already.

So you missed the first 3 pages of this thread,  LOL

Semhaine wrote...And obviously I wasn't even being entirely serious. I think the last bit of my post that you snipped off would have made that clear.

Spare us.  You don't even have the Developers on your side here.  Not a single one of them has even indirectly claimed that they scrapped origins and player races because of lack of interest in them.

Because reading six pages of Internet forum discussions is something I do regularly, LOL. Note: "didn't think anyone else had brought it up yet." Not: "No one else has brought it up yet." I had an opinion, I stated it. It is neither better nor worse than yours because it is an opinion.
"Spare us"? Do you stick out your pinky when you drink coffee, too? What the heck do the Developers have to do with anything? Opinion. Stated.

[Dave of Canada]

Yrkoon wrote...

Character skills list  to the Mage class, instead of, you know, doing the opposite:  scrapping the mage class all together since 80% of DA:O players didn't play them. 

Mage abilities were created for companions as well, handing them over to a player does not cost resources that Origins did and still allows variety of play. While Origins served no purpose other than wasting resources which could've been spent elsewhere as little of the playerbase experienced them.

You'd have made a point if you compared Carver or Bethany potentially being resource wasteful.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 juin 2012 - 08:27 .

[Yrkoon]

Semhaine wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Semhaine wrote...
 I was just pointing something out that I didn't think anyone else had brought up already.

So you missed the first 3 pages of this thread,  LOL

Semhaine wrote...And obviously I wasn't even being entirely serious. I think the last bit of my post that you snipped off would have made that clear.

Spare us.  You don't even have the Developers on your side here.  Not a single one of them has even indirectly claimed that they scrapped origins and player races because of lack of interest in them.

Because reading six pages of Internet forum discussions is something I do regularly, LOL.
Note: "didn't think anyone else had brought it up yet." Not: "No one else has brought it up yet." I had an opinion, I stated it. It is neither better nor worse than yours because it is an opinion.
"Spare us"? Do you stick out your pinky when you drink coffee, too? What the heck do the Developers have to do with anything? Opinion. Stated.

By the way, found that proof  that just about all Skyrim players  played Nords, yet?

Or is that another  one of your "I think"  moments?

[Yrkoon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Character skills list  to the Mage class, instead of, you know, doing the opposite:  scrapping the mage class all together since 80% of DA:O players didn't play them. 

Mage abilities were created for companions as well, handing them over to a player does not cost resources that Origins did and still allows variety of play. While Origins served no purpose other than wasting resources which could've been spent elsewhere as little of the playerbase experienced them.

You'd have made a point if you compared Carver or Bethany potentially being resource wasteful.

Well there's also the matter of all the other mage things.  items companions can't wear; and  specializations not avaliable to companions.

As for Origins... yeah no purpose to them at all in the first game....  Despite what Gaider and Laidlaw have claimed.  Hell, one wonders why they even called the  game  Dragon Age: Origins

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 juin 2012 - 08:43 .

[Issala]

Yrkoon wrote...

Semhaine wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Semhaine wrote...
 I was just pointing something out that I didn't think anyone else had brought up already.

So you missed the first 3 pages of this thread,  LOL

Semhaine wrote...And obviously I wasn't even being entirely serious. I think the last bit of my post that you snipped off would have made that clear.

Spare us.  You don't even have the Developers on your side here.  Not a single one of them has even indirectly claimed that they scrapped origins and player races because of lack of interest in them.

Because reading six pages of Internet forum discussions is something I do regularly, LOL.
Note: "didn't think anyone else had brought it up yet." Not: "No one else has brought it up yet." I had an opinion, I stated it. It is neither better nor worse than yours because it is an opinion.
"Spare us"? Do you stick out your pinky when you drink coffee, too? What the heck do the Developers have to do with anything? Opinion. Stated.

By the way, found that proof  that just about all Skyrim players  played Nords, yet?

Or is that another  one of your "I think"  moments?

So absolutely every single thing you've ever posted on a website forum is cold, hard fact?
You present proof, back it up by citing numerous sources of references that you can pull up off your Wordpad at any given moment?
If not, then you need to just sit down and chill out.
If so, you need help.

Besides, you missed my point a long time ago.
I'll remember never to make jokes about the size of a character's biceps being directly proportional to the success of a game.

[Yrkoon]

So the answer is no.  You were just "guessing" again.

PS:  Don't compare me to you.   Whenever I've made a statistical claim on this thread, I did, indeed, back it up with links the moment I was asked to.  But then, you'd have to have read the first 3 pages of this thread to see that,  Which you've already admitted you haven't

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 juin 2012 - 08:48 .

[Vormaerin]

Yrkoon wrote...



As for Origins... yeah no purpose to them at all in the first game....  Despite what Gaider and Laidlaw have claimed.  Hell, one wonders why they even called the  game  Dragon Age: Origins

They did have a purpose.  But that purpose wasn't replayability or roleplaying per se.   Those were set pieces to establish game world lore.   "This is what the Dalish are like"   "This is what the dwarfs are like".

If they were about roleplaying choices, the game wouldn't slam an impenetrable force field of "Warden" on your character that blocks out all else as soon as you leave them.

[wsandista]

Maybe all PCs should be Warriors because most players do that.

Maybe Warriors should just use greatswords because the majority of players do that.

Maybe the PC should just be predefined as a straight male because that is what the majority of players do.

The point about Orgins is that they gave the player options. More options is usually desirable as I understand.

To all those complaining that the world didn't react enough to the origin of the PC, did you react to their origins?

[Dakota Strider]

wsandista wrote...

Maybe all PCs should be Warriors because most players do that.

Maybe Warriors should just use greatswords because the majority of players do that.

Maybe the PC should just be predefined as a straight male because that is what the majority of players do.

The point about Orgins is that they gave the player options. More options is usually desirable as I understand.

To all those complaining that the world didn't react enough to the origin of the PC, did you react to their origins?

In addition:

Maybe all the companions should be hot looking females, because that is what the majority of players want...

Maybe ...

[Realmzmaster]

Dakota Strider wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Maybe all PCs should be Warriors because most players do that.

Maybe Warriors should just use greatswords because the majority of players do that.

Maybe the PC should just be predefined as a straight male because that is what the majority of players do.

The point about Orgins is that they gave the player options. More options is usually desirable as I understand.

To all those complaining that the world didn't react enough to the origin of the PC, did you react to their origins?

In addition:

Maybe all the companions should be hot looking females, because that is what the majority of players want...

Maybe ...

But many here on the forums say it is the job of the developers to give the majority what they want. Isn't it?

[Yrkoon]

Maybe they should stop making DLC since the majority of players don't purchase them.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

The point about Orgins is that they gave the player options. More options is usually desirable as I understand.

To all those complaining that the world didn't react enough to the origin of the PC, did you react to their origins?

Options are desirable in general.  It doesn't mean they are appropriate to every story.   I don't need to allow Kender and Dragonmen in a Greyhawk campaign just because they are options in the D&D rules.

Options have to fit with the story and pay for themselves, because they are taking resources from other kinds of options on the devs' part. 

And, yes, I did react to my origin.  I played the dwarf commoner first.   Unfortunately, once I left the "origin zone" I almost never got to refer to anything about me.   Couldn't talk about my sister, couldn't be weirded out by my first experiences outside, and so on.   It wasn't really annoying until my second playthrough as a city elf.  When I got the same dialogues in 99% of the content, I realized the origins were a joke.   You weren't roleplaying based on the origins.  You were just "The warden" no matter what.   After that, I just played the rest of the origins and stopped at Ostagar.    I like my options to be more than "Do I wear the blue suit or the gray suit?"

[Yrkoon]

There were references to each origin all over the place in DA:O, from beginning to end. Whole unique dialogue trees with your companions opened up depending on your Origin.   Each one of the main questline Hubs  (mage circle, Bracialian forest, Denerim, Orzammar) contained unique dialogue depending on your Origin.   That's called Flavor. That's what  Character creation options are for. What gave you the impression that they were supposed to be more than that? Or that they were "inappropriate" because they didn't flat out branch the main storyline off to another direction  (or whatever you believe they should have done)?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 juin 2012 - 11:11 .

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

wsandista wrote...

The point about Orgins is that they gave the player options. More options is usually desirable as I understand.

To all those complaining that the world didn't react enough to the origin of the PC, did you react to their origins?

Options are desirable in general.  It doesn't mean they are appropriate to every story.   I don't need to allow Kender and Dragonmen in a Greyhawk campaign just because they are options in the D&D rules.

Options have to fit with the story and pay for themselves, because they are taking resources from other kinds of options on the devs' part. 

And, yes, I did react to my origin.  I played the dwarf commoner first.   Unfortunately, once I left the "origin zone" I almost never got to refer to anything about me.   Couldn't talk about my sister, couldn't be weirded out by my first experiences outside, and so on.   It wasn't really annoying until my second playthrough as a city elf.  When I got the same dialogues in 99% of the content, I realized the origins were a joke.   You weren't roleplaying based on the origins.  You were just "The warden" no matter what.   After that, I just played the rest of the origins and stopped at Ostagar.    I like my options to be more than "Do I wear the blue suit or the gray suit?"

So I take it that you made the exact same decisions in every playthrough? Your PC's origin had absolutely no effect on their outlook or personality?

Realmzmaster wrote...

But many here on the forums say it is the job of the developers to give the majority what they want. Isn't it?

The job of the developers is to create a product. What is included in that product is up to them, but it has to appeal to what the majority of the target audience want if they want it to sell. Options are a good way to attract more people, because instead of having to play as a straight, male, human, Warrior wielding a greatsword, they have options to create a PC that reflects the character they want. Bioware can do this, as they have done in several excellent games(like BG, BG2, NWN, KOTOR, DAO). By removing one option, they somewhat homogenize all PCs in that game.

Yrkoon wrote...

Maybe they should stop making DLC since the majority of players don't purchase them.

If that means more content included in the game, or actual expansions, then hell yes! DLC seems to be getting too pricy anyways.

Modifié par wsandista, 19 juin 2012 - 11:45 .

[Korusus]

Semhaine wrote...

The problem with having multiple races in a game is that in the wide view of things -- how the majority of people who own the game play that game -- it doesn't matter because eight times out of ten gamers are always going to pick the default human. How many people who played Dragon Age played as a Cousland only? Look at Skyrim -- I hate to use it as an example for something because it's used as an example for everything nowadays -- but in Skyrim you had even more race options.
And so pretty much everyone picked a Nord.

I understand your opinion, and BioWare uses that example a lot (DA2 is a horrible game because they focus grouped everything in DA:O to death), but Skyrim is a bad example for you to pick.

The reason is this:  The Elder Scrolls series is all about creating your own character, not playing a preset character.  The races available in Skyrim are the same available in Oblivion, Morrowind, Daggerfall, and Arena.  I imagine the Bethesda developers have absolutely zero sympathy for BioWare's position in this regard.  Why include different racial options if 90% are just going to pick human anyway?  Because artistically it's the right thing to do, now get over it and quit whining.  From my perspective as a consumer, there is no statistic that justifies removing the Origins from the series, just as removing Argonians from The Elder Scrolls would be unjustifiable even though I as a player may not ever play an Argonian, or Khajiit or whatever the case may be.  The fact that those options are there are worth waaay more than a voice actor ever will be.

And I'm not aware of Bethesda ever releasing any statistics on players racial choices.  Do you think the majority of the player base played a Dark Elf in Morrowind? 

Modifié par Korusus, 19 juin 2012 - 11:29 .

[Realmzmaster]

wsandista wrote...

snip

Realmzmaster wrote...

But many here on the forums say it is the job of the developers to give the majority what they want. Isn't it?

The job of the developers is to create a product. What is included in that product is up to them, but it has to appeal to what the majority of the target audience want if they want it to sell. Options are a good way to attract more people, because instead of having to play as a straight, male, human, Warrior wielding a greatsword, they have options to create a PC that reflects the character they want. Bioware can do this, as they have done in several excellent games(like BG, BG2, NWN, KOTOR, DAO). By removing one option, they somewhat homogenize all PCs in that game.

After Ostagar in DAO the PCs were mostly homogenized. The story was the same. The race had no real impact on the story. 95 % of the dialogue was the same. No one called the elf (city or dalish) warden knifeears even though racism against elves is front and center in Thedas. At least in Kirkwall Hawke was called a Ferelden dog by the nobles as he/she passed by. Hubert even denigrates Fereldens in front of Hawke and Hawke gets to calls Hubert on it.

There is more than one way to roleplay a character you can create the character or step into the role of a pre-defined character. I have no problem doing either. I simply make the character my own by the choices I make which requires imagination. 

Some of the gamers on this forum have stated that other gamers lack imagination because they want a voiced protagonist. I could equally say that some gamers lack imagination because they are unable to step into a pre-defined (or semi pre-defined) role and make it their own. I have chosen not to state that until now.

Options are always nice, but not always a necessity.