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[wsandista]

Realmzmaster wrote...

wsandista wrote...

snip

Realmzmaster wrote...

But many here on the forums say it is the job of the developers to give the majority what they want. Isn't it?

The job of the developers is to create a product. What is included in that product is up to them, but it has to appeal to what the majority of the target audience want if they want it to sell. Options are a good way to attract more people, because instead of having to play as a straight, male, human, Warrior wielding a greatsword, they have options to create a PC that reflects the character they want. Bioware can do this, as they have done in several excellent games(like BG, BG2, NWN, KOTOR, DAO). By removing one option, they somewhat homogenize all PCs in that game.

After Ostagar in DAO the PCs were mostly homogenized. The story was the same. The race had no real impact on the story. 95 % of the dialogue was the same. No one called the elf (city or dalish) warden knifeears even though racism against elves is front and center in Thedas. At least in Kirkwall Hawke was called a Ferelden dog by the nobles as he/she passed by. Hubert even denigrates Fereldens in front of Hawke and Hawke gets to calls Hubert on it.

You're confusing "PC" with "how the world reacts to the PC". Who the PC is(race, prientation, gender, background, etc.) matters quite a bit.

There is more than one way to roleplay a character you can create the character or step into the role of a pre-defined character. I have no problem doing either. I simply make the character my own by the choices I make which requires imagination. 

I never said there wasn't.

Some of the gamers on this forum have stated that other gamers lack imagination because they want a voiced protagonist. I could equally say that some gamers lack imagination because they are unable to step into a pre-defined (or semi pre-defined) role and make it their own. I have chosen not to state that until now.

I agree. I prefer player-generated, but I can stand pre-generated. The problem is(like Bobsmith101 has been saying) is that Bioware is trying to stand on a middle ground that doesn't exist. Hawke is a set PC who isn't defined enough to be a set PC, yet too defined to be a player-generated PC.

Options are always nice, but not always a necessity.

Of course. You can't be anything in an cRPG, there would just be too much resources to accomplish that. The problem is that BW is taking out options that were already in the series. When something that was well-received(as the origins were) is removed, there is going to be protest and complaints.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

So I take it that you made the exact same decisions in every playthrough? Your PC's origin had absolutely no effect on their outlook or personality?

No, I didn't make the exact same decisions. But, with the exception of the dwarf backgrounds (the best in the game, imho) nothing about the backgrounds particularly informed a particular decision.  I wonder why folks actually defend the origins, since they don't actually create choice.   You can only play one of two dwarves, not any dwarf.   You can only play 1 city elf, not any city elf.

Actually, BG and NWN2 only give you one origin.  They just pretend it makes sense for whatever race and class option you have.  I can't remembe what NWN said about your origin before the school, so you could imagine whatever you wanted (as long as that included joining a school for adventurers).

Playing Hawke as an elf or dwarf wouldn't be different in any meaningful way that wasn't entirely in your head.  You'd still be Hawke, just shorter.   And I don't know what they'd do about Bethany with a dwarf origin...  Or were you expecting them to take a couple of the existing quests out so they could make race specific starting origins?

Yrkoon wrote...
. What gave you the impression that they were supposed to be more than that?

I didn't say they were supposed to be more than that.  Actually, I said that their purpose was to provide information about the world and any benefit to character creation was incidental.

You
may think that five or ten minutes of content in 30 hours is flavor.   I
call 29 hours of burying everything under the "warden" label to be the opposite.  I'd rather have 3 more hours of quests/rp content than that kind of "flavor".

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

I agree. I prefer player-generated, but I can stand pre-generated. The problem is(like Bobsmith101 has been saying) is that Bioware is trying to stand on a middle ground that doesn't exist. Hawke is a set PC who isn't defined enough to be a set PC, yet too defined to be a player-generated PC.

This is where we meet, except that I prefer pre generated when done right.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...


No, I didn't make the exact same decisions. But, with the exception of the dwarf backgrounds (the best in the game, imho) nothing about the backgrounds particularly informed a particular decision.  I wonder why folks actually defend the origins, since they don't actually create choice.   You can only play one of two dwarves, not any dwarf.   You can only play 1 city elf, not any city elf.

Did the origins help define the PC at all? Do you think that maybe some people liked the origins because they gave their PC a backstory? You can play as quite a few different city elves, because unlike DA2, the origins did little to set the PC's characterization, they only helped to mold them.

Actually, BG and NWN2 only give you one origin.  They just pretend it makes sense for whatever race and class option you have.  I can't remembe what NWN said about your origin before the school, so you could imagine whatever you wanted (as long as that included joining a school for adventurers).

BG and NWN2 gave you an ambiguous origin that was quite open to player interpretation. NWN was almost completely undefined, and let the player create almost any backstory they wished.

Playing Hawke as an elf or dwarf wouldn't be different in any meaningful way that wasn't entirely in your head.  You'd still be Hawke, just shorter.   And I don't know what they'd do about Bethany with a dwarf origin...  Or were you expecting them to take a couple of the existing quests out so they could make race specific starting origins?

"In your head" is matters though. Race is a part of who the PC is, and will inform their decisions in some way. The PC's experiences shape who they are.

Did you play a homosexual Hawke? If so, did he/she act any differently than a heterosexual Hawke in any way at all? You know, like only hitting on those of the same sex?

[Yrkoon]

Vormaerin wrote...

I didn't say they were supposed to be more than that.  Actually, I said that their purpose was to provide information about the world and any benefit to character creation was incidental.

You
may think that five or ten minutes of content in 30 hours is flavor.   I
call 29 hours of burying everything under the "warden" label to be the opposite.  I'd rather have 3 more hours of quests/rp content than that kind of "flavor".

Why in the world would anyone measure color, flavor and detail by the minute?  What kind of backwards measuring stick is that?

The Value of the Origins comes in the beautifully subtle alterations of Dialogue and the ambiant changes that make the world feel like its "aware" of you  (something painfully absent in DA2, where if you chose to be a mage, Templars did not notice)  Have you ever played a Dalish Elf then talked to Lelianna at camp?  She has questions for you.  Questions she won't ask to any non-dalish PC.  Have you ever played a mage then returned to the Circle?  It's  a completely different feel.  period.  

And this is to say nothing of the  unique  Boons the monarch bestows upon you in the Epilogue... which are, again, based on your Origin.

Vormaerin wrote...
I'd rather have 3 more hours of quests/rp content than that kind of "flavor".

Except that  we got nothing of the sort.  Instead, we lost the Origins, then got a shorter game with less of practically everything.  The only thing we did get was a voiced protagonist, which, whatever one's opinion on it,  was not much of a tradeoff in its current state.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 juin 2012 - 01:17 .

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

Did you play a homosexual Hawke? If so, did he/she act any differently than a heterosexual Hawke in any way at all? You know, like only hitting on those of the same sex?

I don't think you were allowed to hit on anyone outside the party in DA2 and they are all herosexual...   Should be able to, but that's part of what I'm saying.  You aren't playing *your* character.  You are playing the DM's character and the only difference is how much of a clue he gives you about what the game will tolerate.   You can't play an Isabella type in DAO as a PC, because there's only two non party members who you can seduce and nothing in any of the dialogue choices support it.

On an unrelated note, did you know that that man of Morrigans' dreams is a dwarf thug with prison tats? 


As I've said in other threads, its entirely possible to create race options without creating these problems.   If you have the choice of being a surface dwarf from Denerim, a city elf servant in a merchant's household, or a human merchant, you will have characters that reasonably have the same frame of reference, speech patterns, and so on.

But when you claim characters are from wildly divergent cultures and locations, but then make them all behave and speak identically, I consider that a problem.

[brushyourteeth]

Vormaerin wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
... I still fail to see how having only one option available to us improves the game. I found Hawke no more immersive than the Warden and oftentimes less so. Just one player's experience, but there you go.

It depends on whether or not you buy into what I consider a cosmetic shell game.   IMHO, you only have one choice in DAO also:  being 'the warden" completely trumps every other aspect of your character.   You act, talk, and are treated exactly the same whether you are a human nobleman victim of a murderous plot or you are a ghetto raised elf woman wanted for murdering a noble.  Because you are "the warden."

As I said in the other thread, I consider the origins to be the roleplaying equivalent of a sucker punch:  they set you up with interesting options and then say "but they don't matter, hahaha."

*snip*

I guess I get what you're saying, but to me that switch from your origin identity to your Gray Warden status made perfect sense and felt completely organic. If a city elf escaped the authorities and moved to Redcliffe and became a baker no one would ever bring up her past much either - because they weren't aware of it/didn't care about it. Her status would be the most important thing. It would be "Elf, get me this!" or "Baker, get me that!" It was only because of your dumb luck in being given an elevated status as Grey Warden that only 1/8 of the people you met ever made a comment about where you came from. Alistair shared the same fate - until the world found out he was a Theirin nobody cared where he came from. He was just a Warden too.

At the end of the day, it wasn't so important to me that the world knew where my Warden came from. I knew (and even chose) where she came from, and that was what was important.

I guess I just don't buy "The first try wasn't detailed enough so let's take out all optional detail." as a great argument.  And that isn't me putting words into your mouth, Vormaerin - it's just something I've seen from a lot of other posters.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 20 juin 2012 - 01:33 .

[robertthebard]

Yrkoon wrote...


The Value of the Origins comes in the beautifully subtle alterations of Dialogue and the ambiant changes that make the world feel like its "aware" of you  (something painfully absent in DA2, where if you chose to be a mage, Templars did not notice)  Have you ever played a Dalish Elf then talked to Lelianna at camp?  She has questions for you.  Questions she won't ask to any non-dalish PC.  Have you ever played a mage then returned to the Circle?  It's  a completely different feel.  period.

You really didn't play Origins, did you?  How many NPC's called you by name outside of your Origin?  You know, I wrote about 250 scripts with the NWN's toolset for discussions/random NPC dialog that called the players name, and that toolset was developed by BioWare.  How many times did any NPC call you by name in Ostagar?  How many of your romances involved them calling you by name?  When addressed in cutscene dialog, how many times were you simply "insert race/background here" instead of "Warden" after you left Ostagar?  Where in the game did who you were matter more than what you were?

Playing a mage and returning meant only that I knew who the major players were, and they knew me, and yet, through it all, I was still "Warden".  What's up with that?  The last time your origin is really noted in plot related dialog is Cailin at Ostagar, just as you arrive.  After the Joining, you're simply a Warden to him too.  Of course, since the dialogs are done in cutscenes, and voiced, it has to be that way.  Limitation of the technology, and of course, the fact that they'd have to record the actor doing each set of dialog 10 billion times for each and every possible realistic name, and that doesn't include names like "FemShep Shepard".  As I said so many pages ago, there are references to your origin peppered throughout the game, but by and large, you're the Warden, and that's it.  This topic was beat to death in the Origin forums for months after release, and I could link 'em, but hey, you're every bit as capable of doing the foot work, and maybe it would do you some good to remember what it was actually like, instead of pretending it was all rainbows and butterflies.

[Vormaerin]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I guess I just don't buy "The first try wasn't detailed enough so let's take out all optional detail." as a great argument.  And that isn't me putting words into your mouth, Vormaerin - it's just something I've seen from a lot of other posters.

Well, I think you'll find that what most of those people mean (certainly what I mean) is "please put in the details, they are really important.  If you can put the details on all six, great.  But if you can't, I'd rather have 1 done right than 6 done half way (or less)."



Btw, I think you underestimate the impact of a arl's son being murdered by an elf.  People would be talking about it, especially since the murderer very publicly escaped justice by joining the Wardens.  That would get travelling merchants gossiping up and down the roads.

Now, most folk you meet don't even know you are a warden, supposedly.  Since there is a bounty on you head as a traitor and all that....  But, if that's the case, they should be treating you like a elf, not a warden.

[Yrkoon]

robertthebard wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...


The Value of the Origins comes in the beautifully subtle alterations of Dialogue and the ambiant changes that make the world feel like its "aware" of you  (something painfully absent in DA2, where if you chose to be a mage, Templars did not notice)  Have you ever played a Dalish Elf then talked to Lelianna at camp?  She has questions for you.  Questions she won't ask to any non-dalish PC.  Have you ever played a mage then returned to the Circle?  It's  a completely different feel.  period.

You really didn't play Origins, did you?  How many NPC's called you by name outside of your Origin?  You know, I wrote about 250 scripts with the NWN's toolset for discussions/random NPC dialog that called the players name, and that toolset was developed by BioWare.  How many times did any NPC call you by name in Ostagar?  How many of your romances involved them calling you by name?  When addressed in cutscene dialog, how many times were you simply "insert race/background here" instead of "Warden" after you left Ostagar?  Where in the game did who you were matter more than what you were?

Playing a mage and returning meant only that I knew who the major players were, and they knew me, and yet, through it all, I was still "Warden".  What's up with that?  The last time your origin is really noted in plot related dialog is Cailin at Ostagar, just as you arrive.  After the Joining, you're simply a Warden to him too.  Of course, since the dialogs are done in cutscenes, and voiced, it has to be that way.  Limitation of the technology, and of course, the fact that they'd have to record the actor doing each set of dialog 10 billion times for each and every possible realistic name, and that doesn't include names like "FemShep Shepard".  As I said so many pages ago, there are references to your origin peppered throughout the game, but by and large, you're the Warden, and that's it.  This topic was beat to death in the Origin forums for months after release, and I could link 'em, but hey, you're every bit as capable of doing the foot work, and maybe it would do you some good to remember what it was actually like, instead of pretending it was all rainbows and butterflies.

Names?  That's not what your origin is, (although I could give you a rather long list of people After Ostagar who  do indeed refer to you as Cousland, or as Aeducan etc.)    But Your Origin is your race and where you came from.  Again,  Morrigan will notice and comment on your race when you meet her in the wilds; Lelianna will ask you questions about the Dalish and your clan. Oghren, Sten, and Zevran have unique lines for you depending on your Origin.  Teryn Logain will too.  So will Anora, so will Alistair.

The game  literally crawls with such examples.  From beginning to end.  And again, that is to say nothing of the Epilogue, which is specifically catered to your Origin choice.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

I don't think you were allowed to hit on anyone outside the party in DA2 and they are all herosexual...   Should be able to, but that's part of what I'm saying.  You aren't playing *your* character.  You are playing the DM's character and the only difference is how much of a clue he gives you about what the game will tolerate.   You can't play an Isabella type in DAO as a PC, because there's only two non party members who you can seduce and nothing in any of the dialogue choices support it.

No I'm playing my character in the DM's game. In a cRPG my PC is much more limited than in a PnP, but I still(ideally) retain control.

On an unrelated note, did you know that that man of Morrigans' dreams is a dwarf thug with prison tats? 

Nope, that is Alistair.

[robertthebard]

Yrkoon wrote...

Names?  That's not what your origin is, (although I could give you a rather long list of people After Ostagar who  do indeed refer to you as Cousland, or as Aeducan etc.)    But Your Origin is your race and where you came from.  Again,  Morrigan will notice and comment on your race when you meet her in the wilds; Lelianna will ask you questions about the Dalish and your clan. Oghren, Sten, and Zevran have unique lines for you depending on your Origin.  Teryn Logain will too.  So will Anora, so will Alistair.

The game  literally crawls with such examples.  From beginning to end.  And again, that is to say nothing of the Epilogue, which is specifically catered to your Origin choice.

Now we're starting to get somewhere.  The story in DA 2 has you as a direct descendant of a Noble family in Kirkwall, the Amells.  It is, in fact, your mother's last name before she marries your father.  There are codex entries in the game confirming that the Amells were indeed nobles, and did indeed have a lot of clout, it is, in fact implied with your discussion with Gamlen:  Don't expect our name to carry the kind of weight it used to.   However, it's your position that, unless it suits your position in this discussion, race and where you came from doesn't matter.  It's my position that it does.  It is my position that, despite your claim that Origins was full of references to what you were, or where you're from, that it's really not.  The one thing that you are, and rightfully so, since that's what Origins focused around, was a Grey Warden.  You choose to disavow this with claims that your Elf was the Hero of Ferelden, or the Warden Commander, but in truth, every race got that distinction, if you finished the game with it, and played Awakening.  It is not a unique situation to the Elven Warden.

This is the part of the lore that makes an elven version of this story really hard to write.  Hatred for the elven race in general is overshadowed in this installment of Thedas due to the focus being on the hatred of mages and the tension between them and the Templars/Chantry.  This does not mean, however, that it doesn't exist, and we have evidence that even influential elves are second class citizens, or worse.  The disdain that is held for being a Mage Hawke in this game would then be piled on the Elven protagonist, since it would seem that whole segments of the lore were disregarded for the sake of allowing one to play an Elf.

In Origins, it was intended that you would save the world, or most of it, from the Blight.  You indeed do, and remarkably well too, by all accounts.  In 2, you are not supposed to save the world.  You are a footnote in the History of Thedas, and that simply because you were there, and figured in to the events that lead up to open war between the Chantry and the mages.  As the story shows, you were not instrumental in starting it, and there's no way you can prevent it, but this story needed to be told.  Implementation could have been much better, especially from BioWare, but I do think it was the best way to go about it.

[Sylvianus]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I guess what I'm most confused about is what players think having only one available race option actually does to improve the game. One could argue that adding other options takes away resources from the rest of the game, but DAII was significantly shorter and less detailed than DA:O, if my memory serves me right. The game didn't suffer at all for the additional racial options and in a lot of player's opinions (including mine) it was one of the best features of the franchise until it was dropped.

We were told at the time that the devs just wanted to tell Hawke's story, and Hawke happened to be a human. If that's true, having a set protagonist should mean they're open to sometimes telling the story of a dwarf, kossith, fex, or elf. But that won't happen because people are hung up on humans.

... I still fail to see how having only one option available to us improves the game. I found Hawke no more immersive than the Warden and oftentimes less so. Just one player's experience, but there you go.

Absolutely.  Despite what all those specialists say about one available race option, what we've seen with hawk or DAII didn't show at all how it would be apparently better to get only one available race option. It failed compared to DAO. And now, it isn't surprising if many people want something else.

Semhaine wrote... Look at Skyrim -- I hate to use it as an example for something because it's used as an example for everything nowadays -- but in Skyrim you had even more race options.
And so pretty much everyone picked a Nord.

I remember a review I read and It showed otherwise, all races were used, some more than others, that's for sure.  Not even with all the fan's polls I've seen on internet have shown what you are claiming.

Dunmers, high elves, Imperials, orcs, etc are popular too. Nords are certainly more popular with Skyrim,, because the story happens in their country, they fight for freedom, etc, but that's the only result I've seen. As far as I remember, it was more like :

29 % nords, 26 % dunmers, etc etc.

There are absolutely no metrics like dragon age origins. And this argument for me isn't really good.

If the next metrics show that almost everyone has chosen a male character in the next DA, would you want to remove the female pc ? Because with the voice acting, cinematics, etc, we would have less resources wasted and better used, with only one available male option, since apparently there wouldn't many people who played with a female hero in the last game. You wouldn't be happy. It wouldn't happen compared to that result only because Bioware wants to offer that option no matter how it costs them.

You must also have a vision for your game, the experience you want to offer. Even, if in Skyrim almost everyone would pick the nords, It wouldn't change at all what Skyrim's devs decide in this area. Origins are what they want in their games, what they want their players enjoy.

I'd rather try to get true answers, to improve the other race options, to make them more attractive instead of figuring out false assumptions from doubtful metrics that nobody understands.... It was one game morever, it could be different with another one. I don't get why so many people are so affirmative against the origins used by most people as if they had experienced such cases all their life.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 20 juin 2012 - 04:02 .

[brushyourteeth]

Sylvianus wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I guess what I'm most confused about is what players think having only one available race option actually does to improve the game. One could argue that adding other options takes away resources from the rest of the game, but DAII was significantly shorter and less detailed than DA:O, if my memory serves me right. The game didn't suffer at all for the additional racial options and in a lot of player's opinions (including mine) it was one of the best features of the franchise until it was dropped.

We were told at the time that the devs just wanted to tell Hawke's story, and Hawke happened to be a human. If that's true, having a set protagonist should mean they're open to sometimes telling the story of a dwarf, kossith, fex, or elf. But that won't happen because people are hung up on humans.

... I still fail to see how having only one option available to us improves the game. I found Hawke no more immersive than the Warden and oftentimes less so. Just one player's experience, but there you go.

Absolutely.  Despite what all those specialists say about one available race option, what we've seen with hawk or DAII didn't show at all how it would be apparently better to get only one available race option. It failed compared to DAO. And now, it isn't surprising if many people want something else.

Semhaine wrote... Look at Skyrim -- I hate to use it as an example for something because it's used as an example for everything nowadays -- but in Skyrim you had even more race options.
And so pretty much everyone picked a Nord.

The Elder Scrolls have pretty much always had a suggested canon protagonist but still allowed the player a ton of choice. The Dragonborn is most likely going to be a Nord - so players choose to play a Nord.

In Morrowind the Nerevarine is most likely a Dunmer, which encouraged many players to play as a Dunmer. But we still had the choice. If I remember right, Redguard forced the gamer to play as a male Redguard but Bethesda's developers moved into race and gender selection, realizing that RPG gamers want as many choices as you can possibly throw at them. And don't we? That's what this is all about. Even players who are anti-origins options argue that way because they want to free up space for more choices in other parts of the game.

I'm not convinced that those two things are at odds. Bioware has proven to us that they can give us great character options and a great story. DA:O was fantastic and played just as long as DAII even if you cut out the gameplay before Ostagar. The problem is that DAII in many ways didn't do what a sequel does - take what fans love about the original and expand/improve them. It junked the origins instead of tweaking them. It gave us fewer choices that mattered instead of more. And now we're encouraging the company to cut more features in the hope that they'll succeed in redistributing those resources in an impressive way the next time. The truth is that cuts to player customization absolutely do not need to happen in order to make DAIII a great game.

Some of us have lost their faith in the vision and talent behind Dragon Age and should just admit it.
I for one haven't, so I'll keep rooting for both more player options and better gameplay and storytelling. I believe Bioware can still do that for us.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 20 juin 2012 - 04:12 .

[bEVEsthda]

Vormaerin wrote...

[The first, the Spore thing, I discount because I don't believe that was a metrics driven decision.  I don't believe anyone said "hey, the metric show that players only install three times, so lets put in an install limit."    I think they said "hey, how do we keep people from reselling their games, because we are jerks who like to think selling doesn't transfer ownership?  What can we get away with?  Let's BS it out with some stats to try to make it sound less dickish."

The purpose doesn't matter. Sure it was metric driven. They tried to predict what they could get away with. I'd like to think that if anyone had been alone with his own thoughts, in formulating that decisison, it would have been 5 plus uninstall rollback, from the beginning. That is what is reasonable. Stats, and looking at each others ("he seem to think it's ok, so maybe it is) convinced them that 3 and nothing was reasonable. Anyone, who thinks that is reasonable, has bypassed reason some way. People do that all the time. One doesn't have to be stupid to do it.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 20 juin 2012 - 06:50 .

[Dakota Strider]

I forget who first mentioned it, but if Bioware saw statistics that showed most players in DAO played the Human Noble Origin, and decided that is why DA2 should use a Human Noble as the only choice for a background, they misinterpreted their data.

Yes, most of my playthroughs in DAO were the Human Noble. But not because I wanted to be a Noble. Because I wanted my human to be either a rogue or a warrior, and I wanted to try all the different combat specializations available with different characters. I actually hate having characters that start as nobility. I much prefer starting out as a nobody, and then earning any status that my character receives. It is rather demeaning to say that someone is important, just because their Mommy or Daddy was important, or worse yet, their Grandparents are the reason why someone has to respect them.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 20 juin 2012 - 06:44 .

[Vormaerin]

Dakota Strider wrote...

I forget who first mentioned it, but if Bioware saw statistics that showed most players in DAO played the Human Noble Origin, and decided that is why DA2 should use a Human Noble as the only choice for a background, they misinterpreted their data.

Ugh.  NO ONE SAID THAT.   EVER.  

The data mining was not brought up as point about why Bioware did something.  It was brought up as a refutation of the assertion that Dragon Age games need race options to satisfy the fans.  

No rational person thinks that Bioware sat down and said  'Hmm, most folks are human males.  Let's just make a game with human male protagonists.  Eh, we'll cater to the forums by letting them be gay or female too."

I am quite sure that Bioware's writers decided that the story they wanted to tell in DA2 works best with a single character, because of the emphasis on family, local attachment, etc.   They may have also been influenced by resource limitations, in which case the data mining might have been part of the cost/benefit analysis.  No way to be sure from outside, of course.   But there is no way it was *the reason* for the decision.   The only way you could believe that is if you are one of those tinfoil hat sorts who believe that Bioware is full of malignly incompetent people out to ruin gaming forever.

[Yrkoon]

robertthebard wrote...

Now we're starting to get somewhere.  The story in DA 2 has you as a direct descendant of a Noble family in Kirkwall, the Amells.  It is, in fact, your mother's last name before she marries your father.  There are codex entries in the game confirming that the Amells were indeed nobles, and did indeed have a lot of clout, it is, in fact implied with your discussion with Gamlen:  Don't expect our name to carry the kind of weight it used to.   However, it's your position that, unless it suits your position in this discussion, race and where you came from doesn't matter.  It's my position that it does.

Just a note, I was not trying to imply that  the PC's family name doesn't matter, just that it doesn't constitute the totality of what defines your Origins.    I also would never claim  that NPCs in DA2's game world are oblivious to your name, only that they're oblivious to everything else,  such as your class  (there is NO justification for Templars not responding to a PC blood Mage.  NONE AT ALL.  It is literally a flaw that kills the game, kills its lore, kills its setting and kills its immersion) We can't really make a comparison here though, since with DA2,  it's quite SIMPLE to have everyone call you by name, since it's the only option the game has

  It is my position that, despite your claim that Origins was full of references to what you were, or where you're from, that it's really not. 

It's not?

Lets see...  References to your Origins:

-Cailen makes them
-Jory makes them
-Logain makes them
-Alistair makes them'
-Wynne makes them
-Morrigan makes them
-Harramount makes them
-Bhelan makes them
-an entire Dalish clain in the Bracialian forest makes them
-Bann Teagan makes them
-Sten makes them
-Zeveran makes them
-Lelianna Makes them
-Oghren makes them
-Arl Howe makes them


And that's just people.  There is of course, The various Hub locations of the main questline, which  are altered according to your Origin  (A dwarf returning to Orzammar;  A mage returning to the circle; a Human going to Redcliffe.  A human going to Howe's estate; a Dwarf conducting Business with  Gorim.  A Dalish being Welcomed by Zatherian's clan in  the Bracilian forest,    The option to marry Anora if you're Human;  A ghostly member of your Origin appearing   near the mountain top to the Sacred Ashes to give you a necklace;  etc) And of course  the Epilogue, which is an entire in-game ceremony based on your Origin.

Your "position" perhaps needs some adjustment.

 The one thing that you are, and rightfully so, since that's what Origins focused around, was a Grey Warden.  You choose to disavow this with claims that your Elf was the Hero of Ferelden, or the Warden Commander, but in truth, every race got that distinction, if you finished the game with it, and played Awakening.  It is not a unique situation to the Elven Warden.

So what?  You've yet to establish that one title is mutually exclusive to the other.   It's not.   DA:O weaves both masterfully into the game, assuring the player, over and over and over again, that they're Both a Grey Warden, AND their own person, with their own background.  Period.  And this is a response to the rest of your post, which, while interesting to read, does not make any new points, but simply attempts to justify the same stance that's already been addressed here..

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 juin 2012 - 10:26 .

[Ghidorah14]

Here's the thing that's really bothered me about being a human in DA2 and the so-called "need" to tell a story surrounding this one human family; it's a bunch of crap. Just like being "champion of kirkwall," there's nothing to it.

Lemme explain.

When you first arrive in Kirkwall, Leandra says "our family has always been highly regarded in Kirkwall."

Ok. But later she kind of contradicts that when you ask about the Amell family. She says magic has "been a stain in our lineage," and that "no family would marry into a line with magic." That doesnt seem "highly regarded" to me. And of course, there's Gamlen. Need I say more on him?

So once Hawke buys the family estate back, apparently we're back to being "highly regarded," but all that ever comes of that is Cullen saying "Hawke! The new scion of the Amell family. Welcome." Oh, and people now address you as "Serah Hawke." Great.

Being a descendant of the "highly regarded" Amell family does nothing for you, because you have to work your way up from the slums to hightown to champion status anyway! Literally, if you removed the family connections, DA2 would still be DA2.

I mean, Bartrand OWNS an estate in hightown as well, and he's just a dwarf. If he can own property in hightown, why couldnt a fellow surface dwarf do the same after getting the money to buy one from the deep roads expedition? I highly doubt nobility has anything to do with it, because all of that stays behind in Orzammar. You want a family connection? Say that your dwarven family has connections with the Dwarven Merchants Guild that is already established in Kirkwall! Dwarf origin and family DONE.

And why cant an elf do the same? We have an elf first enchanter. I dont think owning an estate is too out of the question. And for an origin, just say "there's another alienage in kirkwall. One of our bretheren went there to marry a few years ago. Maybe we can live with them." Elven origin and family DONE.

[Vormaerin]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

I mean, Bartrand OWNS an estate in hightown as well, and he's just a dwarf. If he can own property in hightown, why couldnt a fellow surface dwarf do the same after getting the money to buy one from the deep roads expedition? I highly doubt nobility has anything to do with it, because all of that stays behind in Orzammar. You want a family connection? Say that your dwarven family has connections with the Dwarven Merchants Guild that is already established in Kirkwall! Dwarf origin and family DONE.

And why cant an elf do the same? We have an elf first enchanter. I dont think owning an estate is too out of the question. And for an origin, just say "there's another alienage in kirkwall. One of our bretheren went there to marry a few years ago. Maybe we can live with them." Elven origin and family DONE.

Uh huh.  And Bethany could be the first ever dwarf mage!   And Carver?  Who knows?  Maybe there are elf templars.  Never seen one, of course.   Though the elves in Ferelden are supposedly much better treated than those in the rest of the Thedas.   Which, given the way the elves in Ferelden are treated, ought to tell us something.    I doubt the elf version could have been champion of kirkwall, no matter how wealthy or badass.  A successful, badass elf is more likely to be considered a social threat than a hero.

The short version?  Yes, you could have added racial origins.   But it would have costs associated with it, even if you used the same voice actor and dialogue.  Which would get folks on the forums whinging about how elfHawke and dwarfHawke sound the same.

Its easy to pick on the DA2 story, because it wasn't nearly as polished as intended.  Bioware's folks have said as much; not to mention its obvious.  Just because Hawke ended up a little too detached and generic in the end isn't reason to plan for that outcome by diluting the connections to start with.


I know that a lot of foks just want the look of being and elf or a dwarf.  But I know that, for me, if I play an elf and I'm not treated the way the lore says, I feel cheated. 

Modifié par Vormaerin, 21 juin 2012 - 12:14 .

[Yrkoon]

Vormaerin wrote...


Uh huh.  And Bethany could be the first ever dwarf mage!  

Straw man.

The inclusion of a Dwarf Origin does not necessitate the omission  of Bethany as a human.  Nor does it omit the Amell family as a whole or any of their struggles from being in the game.

Instead, what would happen is an alternate reality based on your Origin.  Just like what happens in DA:O, when you decide to be a Human Noble instead of a Dwarf Noble.  There's still an Aeducan son, who still gets exiled to the deep roads.  the game simply makes it so that you're not him.

Vormaerin wrote...
Yes, you could have added racial origins. But it would have costs associated with it

 Costs!   Perish the Thought!

Damn, I concede!  That's good enough for me.  Indeed, why would anyone ever want a  rich, deeply cost-invested game, when we could have a lesser, shorter, cheaply made  game instead!

Modifié par Yrkoon, 21 juin 2012 - 01:16 .

[Ghidorah14]

Vormaerin wrote...

Uh huh.  And Bethany could be the first ever dwarf mage!   And Carver?  Who knows?  Maybe there are elf templars.  Never seen one, of course.  

Who says the Hawke/Amell family speficially needs a racial counterpart?

In Bethany's case of the Dwarf origin, her charater could be discarded altogether. Or, she could simply by a mage that you happened to meet on the run, and like with Aveline and Wesley, decided it was best to band together.

I'm not talking about merely swapping out character models, I'm talking about replacing key characters for individual origin that takes the place of another.

As for Carver's role, the elf character in his place could simply NOT have the option to go templar. Just warden.

Or hey, maybe instead of a templar, the elf-carver character could run off on his own and join the dalish, just like so many others have.

See what just a little bit switching around can do?

Though the elves in Ferelden are supposedly much better treated than those in the rest of the Thedas.   Which, given the way the elves in Ferelden are treated, ought to tell us something.    I doubt the elf version could have been champion of kirkwall, no matter how wealthy or badass.  A successful, badass elf is more likely to be considered a social threat than a hero.

Um, hello?

"Hero of Fereldan?"

"Warden Commander?"

"First Enchanter?"

Like, how did you just forget all of those?

The short version?  Yes, you could have added racial origins.   But it would have costs associated with it, even if you used the same voice actor and dialogue.  Which would get folks on the forums whinging about how elfHawke and dwarfHawke sound the same.

People will always complain. i dont see the problem in giving them less to complain about.

Its easy to pick on the DA2 story, because it wasn't nearly as polished as intended.  Bioware's folks have said as much; not to mention its obvious.  Just because Hawke ended up a little too detached and generic in the end isn't reason to plan for that outcome by diluting the connections to start with.


I know that a lot of foks just want the look of being and elf or a dwarf.  But I know that, for me, if I play an elf and I'm not treated the way the lore says, I feel cheated. 

So...you want a game where your elf character is always treated like dirt and cant become anything heroic or great?

[wsandista]

Yrkoon wrote...
Straw man.

The inclusion of a Dwarf Origin does not necessitate the omission  of Bethany as a human.  Nor does it omit the Amell family as a whole or any of their struggles from being in the game.

Instead, what would happen is an alternate reality based on your Origin.  Just like what happens in DA:O, when you decide to be a Human Noble instead of a Dwarf Noble.  There's still an Aeducan son, who still gets exiled to the deep roads.  the game simply makes it so that you're not him.

If you look at a post I made on the last page, I gave an example on how to do origins for each race. Hawke already warped reality if you consider the LI's to be "herosexual" and consider the "variable sibling", so why couldn't different PCs of different races exist in DA2?

 Costs!   Perish the Thought!

Damn, I concede!  That's good enough for me.  Indeed, why would anyone ever want a  rich, deeply cost-invested game, when we could have a lesser, shorter, cheaply made  game instead!

You know I payed $60 for both DAO and DA2. I also payed $60 for Skyrim, and regardless of how one feels about the game, it would be disingenuous to state that Skyrim has less content than DA2. If I payed the same amount of money for all games, is it unreasonable to desire the same amount of resources/effort put into all products? Why some argue against devs actually investing in their games is beyond me.

[brushyourteeth]

wsandista wrote...

You know I payed $60 for both DAO and DA2. I also payed $60 for Skyrim, and regardless of how one feels about the game, it would be disingenuous to state that Skyrim has less content than DA2. If I payed the same amount of money for all games, is it unreasonable to desire the same amount of resources/effort put into all products? Why some argue against devs actually investing in their games is beyond me.

Wow. Well said.

I'd say DA fans are suffering from a serious case of lowered expectations. To the point that "give us less but do it better" is becoming our mantra. Scary, really, since Bioware is still one of the most talented companies in the business. Surely they can improve on DAII, or at least find ways to make their new games as extensive and immersive as the first game in the franchise. For them to give us (or for us to expect) less is kind of insulting all around.

So everyone stop it.

[brushyourteeth]

first.double.post.ever.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 21 juin 2012 - 05:30 .