211 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

Um, hello?

"Hero of Fereldan?"

"Warden Commander?"

"First Enchanter?"

Like, how did you just forget all of those?

So...you want a game where your elf character is always treated like dirt and cant become anything heroic or great?

Hero of Ferelden:  Earned by defeating the Archdemon:  Grey Warden, an elf couldn't do it w/out being a Warden, according to lore that we have.

Warden Commander:  Despite claims made in this thread, if you're not a Warden, you can't be Warden Commander.

Once you become a Warden, race quits being an issue, because, you guessed it, you're a Grey Warden, and even the Qunari know of and respect them.  Grey Wardens have saved known Thedas from the Blight 5 times after Origins, of course their race quits being important.

First Enchanter:  In who's eyes is a First Enchanter considered anything but another mage, with the responsibility of educating mages about being a mage?  What role do they have in the power structure outside of the Circle?  None.  In fact, by Chantry law, mages are forbidden from holding positions where they might be seen as ruling over men.  A fact that, with some people who are desperate to prove an elf could do this, point out as a fallacy of the game as is, since you can indeed gain a title as a Blood Mage.  I'll also note that, despite pointing to the First Enchanter as being somebody important, the two most important people going into Act III are Hawke, and Knight Commander Meredith, the First Enchanter doesn't even get a nod.

Now, before the refute of "But I did it on my elf" comes up, yet again, your elf was a Grey Warden.  Deal with this, internalize it, digest it, get over the gag reflex, what ever you need to do.  The only reason an elf got to be somebody important in Ferelden, and no matter how you slice it, they weren't even all that important since, even if you romanced Alistair and made him King, you couldn't be Queen as an elf, specifically because you were an elf, is because you survived the Joining.  Without being conscripted, it would have been the shortest game ever, because you'd be executed in the CE origin, or would have died, or worse, in the Dalish origin.
Edit for quote tags.

Modifié par robertthebard, 21 juin 2012 - 11:11 .

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

Why some argue against devs actually investing in their games is beyond me.

*sigh*  Who actually said that?  No one. 

You can make whatever arguments you want about what the budget should be or what one game costs vs another.   Not that it matters, because you don't know any of that information.

I don't think there is anyone who doesn't realize that DA2 was made on too tight a budget (of time, if not money, probably both).   What does that have to do with anything?

Regardless of the budget, resources spent in one place are not spent somewhere else.

I want the resources spent on things that enhance the story the game presents.   I don't give a rat's ass about mental space to invent my own 'headcanon'.  I don't buy *computer* games for that.  I play real RPGs when I want that kind of thing.   I expect computer games to provide me with things I can't get playing a p&p game.

If the devs can make culturally distinctive or otherwise meaningful background options that affect something besides the shape of my avatar, great.  I love that stuff.  If they are going to spend resources on making the same character in fourteen colors, screw it and spend those resources on more story.

[Wulfram]

If a Mage can become champion of kirkwall, so can an Elf.

[Vormaerin]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

See what just a little bit switching around can do?

Now you are talking about something completely different.  You are talking about creating additional characters, rewriting story elements, and generally making significant changes.   That's a lot more work.  That work means something else isn't done.   Whether the game is given DAO resources or DA2 resources.

Ghidorah14 wrote...
Um, hello?

"Hero of Fereldan?"

"Warden Commander?"

"First Enchanter?"

Like, how did you just forget all of those?

I didn't.  As another poster pointed out, all of those rely on a great big "Race-eraser" status.   Mages are lower than a ratman's dog anyway.  And the other three rely on the magic "i'm a gray warden" power.

Ghidorah14 wrote...
So...you want a game where your elf character is always treated like dirt and cant become anything heroic or great?

No.  I want a game where my elf is treated like dirt until I actually do something heroic and great.   And still has problems because of race even after being heroic and great.  Because that's what the lore says.   If that's not the way it is going to be, just don't make the lore like that.  Or give me another "get out of elf-dom free" card like being a warden (except don't pretend I'm hiding my warden-ness the entire time).

Its easy enough to write a world without racism if you don't want to show it.   But please don't give me a fake experience of your world.  What's the point?

[Vormaerin]

Wulfram wrote...

If a Mage can become champion of kirkwall, so can an Elf.

Yeah, I know.  Once you throw the lore out the window, you might as well toss the rest of it out too.    But then, why bother having the lore?

[brushyourteeth]

Wulfram wrote...

If a Mage can become champion of kirkwall, so can an Elf.

Elf would actually probably be more likely.

[Yrkoon]

Vormaerin wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If a Mage can become champion of kirkwall, so can an Elf.

Yeah, I know.  Once you throw the lore out the window, you might as well toss the rest of it out too.    But then, why bother having the lore?

  Enough  of this rabid conjecture, already.   For  at least 6 pages now,  you  (and a couple others) have been citing this imaginary "lore" you believe exists in the game, and while you guys have already  been called to task for making   sh** up, you've yet to back your claims.  So I'm going to repeat myself.

Show me a single iota of text, dialogue, graphic, or ANYTHING, in the lore of either game, that states a race or class requirement (or  limitation) to acquiring the title of  "Champion of Kirkwall."

Your argument lives and dies on its existance, so do it.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 21 juin 2012 - 05:19 .

[Vormaerin]

Yrkoon wrote...

Show me a single iota of text, dialogue, graphic, or ANYTHING, in the lore of either game, that states a race or class requirement (or  limitation) to acquiring the title of  "Champion of Kirkwall."

Your argument lives and dies on its existance, so do it.

Gosh....  its not even possible to prove a Darkspawn couldn't be Champion of Kirkwall based on the tiny documentation provided.

If you don't accept that prejudice involves actual discrimination, fine.

But you are creating a BS argument anyway, since no one has asserted it was 100% impossible.  The point was that the path of an elf or a mage should not be the same as the path of a normal human.  The lore says that they are discriminated against and shunned.   Families in Kirkwall are avoided just for having had mages in their bloodline.

Elves are second class citizens with no examples anywhere in either game (or any of the books) of them having the least scrap of power or authority in human society outside the mage circles (who are supposed to be prohibited from having temporal authority anyway) or the gray wardens.

If you don't treat an elf or a mage PC differently than you do a human PC, then you are cr*pping all over the lore.  If my elf breezes through Kirkwall society the way a human Hawke does, I'm being cheated of the experience of being in Thedas.  I'm playing the DIsney version. 

[Yrkoon]

Vormaerin wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Show me a single iota of text, dialogue, graphic, or ANYTHING, in the lore of either game, that states a race or class requirement (or  limitation) to acquiring the title of  "Champion of Kirkwall."

Your argument lives and dies on its existance, so do it.

Gosh....  its not even possible to prove a Darkspawn couldn't be Champion of Kirkwall based on the tiny documentation provided.

Sure it is.  According to the Lore,   Standard Darkspawn are singular minded in their purpose of  the destruction of surface lands.  Therefore, it is impossible  to reconcile the notion of a community leader in Kirkwall  ever bestowing Champion of Kirkwall status to an entity who's sole motivation is the destruction of Kirkwall.

But you are creating a BS argument anyway, since no one has asserted it was 100% impossible.

Nice try.  But your claim was that it goes against the Lore.   a couple others have also claimed as such.    And so I'll ask AGAIN:  Cite me this lore.  Show me where  an Elf Champion of Kirkwall goes against it.

The point was that the path of an elf or a mage should not be the same as the path of a normal human.  The lore says that they are discriminated against and shunned.   Families in Kirkwall are avoided just for having had mages in their bloodline.

A Champion of Kirkwall is not a Normal Human, Mage, Dwarf or Elf.  He's the exception to the Rule.  He's the one who rose up and did something UNUSUAL:  He saved Kirkwall from peril against the all odds.   And Thedas lore is littered with Exceptional individuals shattering the status quo.    Look up  Avaline the Knight and how her pure skill in battle caused the Emperor of Orlais to scrap the actual, in the books law prohibiting women from becoming Chevaliers.

Elves are second class citizens with no examples anywhere in either game (or any of the books) of them having the least scrap of power or authority in human society outside the mage circles (who are supposed to be prohibited from having temporal authority anyway) or the gray wardens.

Is  Citizen status   a prerequisit to becoming the Champion of Kirkwall?

 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 21 juin 2012 - 06:38 .

[brushyourteeth]

I kind of get the impression that Alienage elves are typically too meek to rise up and make anything of themselves (someone like Shianni and possibly the Warden being the exception) and the Dalish are too secluded to desire any interference with the outside world.

Short story being that just because elves often don't become heroes doesn't mean that the world prohibits it. They seem to be preventing themselves from greatness at least 60% of the time. If they wished to change their lot in life there's every reason to expect that'd be hard, but definitely not socially unacceptable.

Closer to the topic, though - I think the most amazing thing about DA:O options was how no matter which option you chose, you still ended up wrapped up in almost every other option's story. Even if you never played as an Aeducan, for example, you still went to Orzammar and got wrapped up in their vote for King. You even find the dwarven commoner's body (yeesh) if you didn't play as him/her. You travel to the Circle tower and meet Cullen and Greagoir and Jowan even if you're not a mage - those places and people just hold specific content for you if you do. The only origins that don't have much to do with the story later are the Dalish elf and Human Noble.

I just think it's interesting that even if you don't play those origins your story is still tied to most of them, yet the content is specific for each. That's fantastic storytelling.

[robertthebard]

Yrkoon wrote...
Is  Citizen status   a prerequisit to becoming the Champion of Kirkwall?

I'll bite, when was the last time Kirkwall had a Champion?  In fact, when was the last time the Free Marches had one?  I'll give you a hint, 8:82 Blessed.  Almost 100 years prior to the events in Kirkwall, and Hawke is the first Champion of Kirkwall, ever, in 9:34 Dragon.  The fact that he is considered a foreigner clearly defeats that strawman.  He's even called a foreigner by the person that bestows the title on him/her.

Chantry Calendar

Dragon Age Wiki wrote...
Champion: an honor unique to the Free Marches. Other terms of reverence suffer the stains of their holders, the lingering baggage of office and entitlement. But champion is not an appointment that can be sought. It cannot be owned or willed, and the process by which it is bestowed is not argued through policy or guile. It is earned with blood and sweat and leadership in times of great turmoil. Always worthy, as their deeds are of true importance, a champion is greeted not by debate, but by nods of reverence.
The title was most recently granted in Tantervale, 8:82 Blessed, on the resolution of the bloody expansion of Nevarra. Their king, emboldened by the taking of Perendale and the quick yielding of Hasmal, thought the remainder of the Free Marches as easy claim. He who became the Champion. Cade Arvale of Rivain, did what Orlais had not: He stopped a nation in its tracks. There was blood and barter, but Tantervale is still free against all odds.
There is the contradiction of the honor. Champion is not itself a sign of approval. He or she can be respected or feared, their coming dreaded as much as desired. All that is common is that they have an effect and lives are changed.
Kirkwall now adds to the history of the title, a first for the city, on this 9:34 Dragon. The Qunari are repelled by the means respected or reviled, and it remains to be seen what follows for this Hawke, the Champion of Kirkwall.—From The Champion: History, Ancient and Current, excerpted by Philliam, a Bard!

  Source 

[Yrkoon]

^so there you have it.  in plain text.  I rest my case.   No Citizenship requirement, no race Requirement, No social status requirement. In fact, the lore specifically states that a Champion isn't even a sign of Approval

LOL @ you guys and your arguments against Elves being Champions.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 21 juin 2012 - 08:13 .

[Face of Evil]

It's not a sign of approval, simply a recognition of greatness.

[Yrkoon]

Exactly.

[Vormaerin]

Yrkoon wrote...

LOL @ you guys and your arguments against Elves being Champions.

Like I said, the exact same prohibitions exist for kossith and darkspawn.  There's nothing stopping the Architect from being Champion of Kirkwall either.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys have ever actually had the misfortune to live somewhere that is as racist as Thedas is. Greatness isn't good enough.   Jesse Owens never got invited to the White House (until many years later), unlike other Olympic Gold Medalists.  Gurkha Victoria Cross winners have been told they aren't good enough to live in England.  And Thedas is arguably worse than 20th century England or America.

Anyway, you are making up more strawmen.  The point wasn't that you couldn't possibly achieve anything as an elf.  The point was that the same path wouldn't work.    "Oh look, the elf found some money.  Of course we'll welcome him into aristocratic society!"    Not. A Friggin Chance.

Heck, the whole point of the Amell family background was to avoid a shunning of Hawke as mere nouveau riche  that would be pretty typical.


I can understand not wanting to put up with that kind of cr*p in a game played for fun,  but then just don't write the gameworld like that.   If you do, don't give the PC special immunity to reality.

[Yrkoon]

Your pathetic backtracking, and willful denial of plain back and white textual proof against your rants is beginning to bore me.

You claimed an Elven champion goes against the lore. This lore (an ingame codex entry in fact), has been shown to you.  It matter of factly disproves your claim. Admit your error now.

Then come up with another reason why Elves shouldn't be Champions.... one that doesn't attemnpt to argue the status quo, which AGAIN, the lore renders irrelevant.

oh wait.  you just did lol:

Vormaerin wrote...
The point wasn't that you couldn't possibly achieve anything as an elf. The point was that the same path wouldn't work. "Oh look, the elf found some money. Of course we'll welcome him into aristocratic society!" Not. A Friggin Chance.

 Well Duh.  It would be  an additional  path, one that  would stand side-by-side with the unchanged  Human path.  Just like the Origins do in DA:O.

And by the way,  "Champion of Kirkwall" is not an aristocratic title.  Stop posting BS, already.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 21 juin 2012 - 09:05 .

[Vormaerin]

Yrkoon wrote...

You claimed an Elven champion goes against the lore. This lore (an ingame codex entry in fact), has been shown to you.  It matter of factly disproves your claim. Admit your error now.

Then come up with another reason why Elves shouldn't be Champions.... one that doesn't attemnpt to argue the status quo, which AGAIN, the lore renders irrelevant.

The codex doesn't disprove my point.  There's no law against an elf being champion.   There's no law against an elf being Queen of Ferelden either.  But its not going to happen.  That's how second class citizenship works.  Its not created by laws in most cases, its created by behaviors on the part of the dominant social group.

But, as I said earlier, they are willing to pretend the Chantry would ignore an apostate blood mage as Champion of Kirkwall, so sure, why not an elf.  Hell, I think you can get your apostate blood mage to be Viscount in direct defiance of church law IIRC.

Do you get it? That's what I want.  I want them to stop putting game play ahead of the lore.  Write the lore to match the gameplay if they don't match.  If you want elves and pixie-faeries ruling, great.  Fine.  Its easy to do.   Just don't tell me one thing and then show me another.

[Yrkoon]

Vormaerin wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

You claimed an Elven champion goes against the lore. This lore (an ingame codex entry in fact), has been shown to you.  It matter of factly disproves your claim. Admit your error now.

Then come up with another reason why Elves shouldn't be Champions.... one that doesn't attemnpt to argue the status quo, which AGAIN, the lore renders irrelevant.

The codex doesn't disprove my point.  There's no law against an elf being champion.   There's no law against an elf being Queen of Ferelden either.  But its not going to happen.  That's how second class citizenship works.  Its not created by laws in most cases, its created by behaviors on the part of the dominant social group.

But, as I said earlier, they are willing to pretend the Chantry would ignore an apostate blood mage as Champion of Kirkwall, so sure, why not an elf.  Hell, I think you can get your apostate blood mage to be Viscount in direct defiance of church law IIRC.

Do you get it? That's what I want.  I want them to stop putting game play ahead of the lore.  Write the lore to match the gameplay if they don't match.  If you want elves and pixie-faeries ruling, great.  Fine.  Its easy to do.   Just don't tell me one thing and then show me another.

Champion of Kirkwall  is a title completely independent of Citizenship status/Social standing.  It doesn't even necessitate the Approval of the society.

Do I need to copy the codex entry in crayon for you?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 21 juin 2012 - 09:28 .

[Vormaerin]

Yrkoon wrote...

 Well Duh.  It would be  an additional  path, one that  would stand side-by-side with the unchanged  Human path.  Just like the Origins do in DA:O.

And by the way,  "Champion of Kirkwall" is not an aristocratic title.  Stop posting BS, already.

The origins in DAO do not stand side by side.  You get a couple lines of dialogue, in non plot relevant places, that are different.  Not one actual option is different, except the King/Queen marriage thing.

The aristocratic society refers to the whole of Chapter 2, where you are living in your mansion and mingling with society before actually killing the Arishok and becoming Champion.  You are an Amell long before you are a Champion.

[Yrkoon]

Vormaerin wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

 Well Duh.  It would be  an additional  path, one that  would stand side-by-side with the unchanged  Human path.  Just like the Origins do in DA:O.

And by the way,  "Champion of Kirkwall" is not an aristocratic title.  Stop posting BS, already.

The origins in DAO do not stand side by side.  You get a couple lines of dialogue, in non plot relevant places, that are different.  Not one actual option is different, except the King/Queen marriage thing.

And the entire epilogue...  And flavor to every main quest, including the Sacred Ashes quest.     And player freedom to be  the race he/she friggin wants to be.  The same can be done with an Elven Protagonist in DA2.

Vormaerin wrote...

The aristocratic society refers to the whole of Chapter 2, where you are living in your mansion and mingling with society before actually killing the Arishok and becoming Champion. You are an Amell long before you are a Champion.

You still don't have an argument.  Varric  sells Hightown estates in DA2.  He can sell one to his Elf Buddy.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 21 juin 2012 - 09:35 .

[Vormaerin]

Yrkoon wrote...

Champion of Kirkwall  is a title completely independent of Social status/Citizenship status.  It doesn't even necessitate the Approval of the society.

Champion of Kirkwall is bestowed by the population by popular acclaim, whether that is from love or fear.  Its entire power comes from the mandate of public opinion.

The story as written doesn't let you climb to power through terror, so actually it does involve popular approval.

[Yrkoon]

 

Vormaerin wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Champion of Kirkwall  is a title completely independent of Social status/Citizenship status.  It doesn't even necessitate the Approval of the society.

Champion of Kirkwall is bestowed by the population by popular acclaim, whether that is from love or fear.  Its entire power comes from the mandate of public opinion.

None of which has to do with social standing or race.    Just  DEEDS.

Question: can en elf drive out the Qunari and save Kirkwall?  Yes.  Therefore, an Elven Champion  works adequately in  DA2's setting.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 21 juin 2012 - 09:41 .

[Vormaerin]

Yrkoon wrote...
You still don't have an argument.  Varric  sells Hightown estates in DA2.  He can sell one to his Elf Buddy.

You've obviously never tried to buy a house in an upscale neighborhood as a minority, have you?  If you really have no understanding of how racism actually pervades society, I am wholeheartedly glad you are so fortunate  (assuming its not a case of "i'm white, so I never noticed"). 

Btw, not that its relevant, but does Varric actually buy and sell estates? I only recall that he was trying to sell his brother's.


It doesn't really matter, though.  You aren't talkign about the same thing the person we were disputing with was.  They were saying just sub in elfs in the same story.   You are talking about writing an specific elvish path to power.   Which was, in fact, what I and the other guy were saying.  It wouldn't work the same for an elf and human, so you'd have to do more than just change the character model.  You'd have to change the story.

[Yrkoon]

Vormaerin wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
You still don't have an argument.  Varric  sells Hightown estates in DA2.  He can sell one to his Elf Buddy.

You've obviously never tried to buy a house in an upscale neighborhood as a minority, have you?  If you really have no understanding of how racism actually pervades society, I am wholeheartedly glad you are so fortunate  (assuming its not a case of "i'm white, so I never noticed"). 

  LOL what?  What kind of moronic analogy is that? Were we discussing the real world?  No man,   Come back down.  Thanks.    Bottom line:   Varric sells a Hightown estate to  someone.  Period.  He has the connections to do it.  Therefore, he can sell one to his Elf Buddy. 

Or Not.    There's nothing stopping an Elf Champion of Kirkwall from living at the Hanged Man, and  solving All of DA2's mundane quests from right there. 

It doesn't really matter, though.  You aren't talkign about the same thing the person we were disputing with was.  They were saying just sub in elfs in the same story.   You are talking about writing an specific elvish path to power.   Which was, in fact, what I and the other guy were saying.  It wouldn't work the same for an elf and human, so you'd have to do more than just change the character model.  You'd have to change the story.

No, you'd have to add  to the story.  Nothing already written needs to be changed.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 21 juin 2012 - 09:58 .

[robertthebard]

Yrkoon wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

You claimed an Elven champion goes against the lore. This lore (an ingame codex entry in fact), has been shown to you.  It matter of factly disproves your claim. Admit your error now.

Then come up with another reason why Elves shouldn't be Champions.... one that doesn't attemnpt to argue the status quo, which AGAIN, the lore renders irrelevant.

The codex doesn't disprove my point.  There's no law against an elf being champion.   There's no law against an elf being Queen of Ferelden either.  But its not going to happen.  That's how second class citizenship works.  Its not created by laws in most cases, its created by behaviors on the part of the dominant social group.

But, as I said earlier, they are willing to pretend the Chantry would ignore an apostate blood mage as Champion of Kirkwall, so sure, why not an elf.  Hell, I think you can get your apostate blood mage to be Viscount in direct defiance of church law IIRC.

Do you get it? That's what I want.  I want them to stop putting game play ahead of the lore.  Write the lore to match the gameplay if they don't match.  If you want elves and pixie-faeries ruling, great.  Fine.  Its easy to do.   Just don't tell me one thing and then show me another.

Champion of Kirkwall  is a title completely independent of Social status/Citizenship status.  It doesn't even necessitate the Approval of the society.

Do I need to copy the codex entry in crayon for you?

You could stop with the strawmen.  That's the only reason I posted the codex.  You are aware, I take it, that the original Viscount was Orlesian?  Which means that the Captain of the Guard likely was too, since you want people with your beliefs in positions of power.  Aveline didn't get Captain of the Guard handed to her on a silver platter either, she proved, with Hawke's help, that the Captain was corrupt, and sacrificing guardsmen to pay his debts.  Hence the "Who better..." speech when she's told she'll be promoted, from LT.  However, in the context of this discussion, this is another strawman; Aveline is human.  Now, if they made Fenris Guard Captain instead, you might have something closer to an actual point.

As to nonexistant lore, a point I was going to leave alone, let's go back to your dream game for a minute, shall we?  What social standing did your City Elf have in Denerim?  Were you afluent and influential in local politics?  Actually, if committing what should be self defence, but gets called murder is any measure, then yeah, you are, somewhat, since you just made the Arl have to have more kids if he's going to pass his little throne on to an heir.  Other than this little footnote, you are one step above a stray dog, and according to that same Arl's son, you aren't even that, as Mabari are probably treated better than elves.  This is the lore that doesn't exist.  This is the setting that we are shown, the squallor that elves are forced to live in if they are in an Alienage.  These are the people that Loghain sold into slavery to finance his war.  This is that nonexistant lore, the inconvenient truth to your posts.  You want to ignore it, you want to believe that your elf was equal to FR elves, that still live forever, practically, but the reality of Thedas is slap in the face to that, and this is what people are saying.  It's one thing to elevate a Warden to Hero status, they just about earn that by surviving the Joining.  It's another to claim that any elf could achieve it.

Is it impossible?  No, but it's not simply replace Hawke with Elven Superstar.  There are prejudices and hatreds that not having Grey Warden as your new identity won't overcome.  The problem I have with the whole thing, and I don't think I'm alone, is that if it had been done, that's what would have happened.  Handwave, presto, an elf can overcome centuries of being downtrodden w/out any crutch.  Of note is that it's not just the genereal population that feels this way, but the Chantry has as well.  What was the second Exalted March?  Against the Elves, because they wanted to have their own Gods, and their own culture, and the Chantry was having none of it.  They completely ignore the fact that elves fought alongside Andraste, and they completely forgot the teachings of their own faith to do it too.  Pretty common in religious circles:  Love thy neighbor as thyself, unless they are different than you.  This is my problem with it.  I was shown a world where elves were persecuted, and demoralized into accepting both the squallor they are forced to live in, and to worship their oppressor's God, and yet, they are going to rise up and save the day.  If they added an elf, I would expect them to add an option to sit back and watch Kirkwall, and every other city with an Alienage burn, instead of expecting me to risk it all to save them.