211 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

robertthebard wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

You claimed an Elven champion goes against the lore. This lore (an ingame codex entry in fact), has been shown to you.  It matter of factly disproves your claim. Admit your error now.

Then come up with another reason why Elves shouldn't be Champions.... one that doesn't attemnpt to argue the status quo, which AGAIN, the lore renders irrelevant.

The codex doesn't disprove my point.  There's no law against an elf being champion.   There's no law against an elf being Queen of Ferelden either.  But its not going to happen.  That's how second class citizenship works.  Its not created by laws in most cases, its created by behaviors on the part of the dominant social group.

But, as I said earlier, they are willing to pretend the Chantry would ignore an apostate blood mage as Champion of Kirkwall, so sure, why not an elf.  Hell, I think you can get your apostate blood mage to be Viscount in direct defiance of church law IIRC.

Do you get it? That's what I want.  I want them to stop putting game play ahead of the lore.  Write the lore to match the gameplay if they don't match.  If you want elves and pixie-faeries ruling, great.  Fine.  Its easy to do.   Just don't tell me one thing and then show me another.

Champion of Kirkwall  is a title completely independent of Social status/Citizenship status.  It doesn't even necessitate the Approval of the society.

Do I need to copy the codex entry in crayon for you?

You could stop with the strawmen.  That's the only reason I posted the codex.  You are aware, I take it, that the original Viscount was Orlesian?  Which means that the Captain of the Guard likely was too, since you want people with your beliefs in positions of power.  Aveline didn't get Captain of the Guard handed to her on a silver platter either, she proved, with Hawke's help, that the Captain was corrupt, and sacrificing guardsmen to pay his debts.  Hence the "Who better..." speech when she's told she'll be promoted, from LT.  However, in the context of this discussion, this is another strawman; Aveline is human.  Now, if they made Fenris Guard Captain instead, you might have something closer to an actual point.

Are you, like, hallucinating or something? 

I never Brought up Avaline Vallen.  I was talking about Avaline the Knight... and how she shattered the Orlesian Status quo of "no women chevalliers"

Modifié par Yrkoon, 21 juin 2012 - 10:01 .

[Vormaerin]

Yrkoon wrote...

I never Brought up Avaline Vallen.  I was talking about Avaline the Knight... and how she shattered the Orlesian Status quo of "no women chevalliers"

Shattered in the "got murdered, so years later the law was changed" sense   


Interestingly enough, I don't think there's even evidence that Kaleva was punished for killing her.

[wsandista]

There seems to be a sentiment from some in this thread that elves are second-class citizens so they can't be Champion of Kirkwall. I would like to point out that Fereldans are also considered second-class by Kirkwallers, yet that doesn't stop one of them from becoming Champion.

Also, what about a Dwarf or Kossith Champion then? I've haven't seen evidence that either of them can't be Champion.

[Dakota Strider]

If being the Champion of Kirkwall requires that you were born into a noble family from the same city, then only a human...or possibly a half human/half elf would have a chance. But...they did not kick Fenris out of a mansion that he was squatting in, and they allowed Bertrand to buy a home in the wealthy district. It would therefore seem possible that they might have allowed non humans to rise in stature enough that they might be considered Champion. The odds would be against them, but not impossible.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

There seems to be a sentiment from some in this thread that elves are second-class citizens so they can't be Champion of Kirkwall. I would like to point out that Fereldans are also considered second-class by Kirkwallers, yet that doesn't stop one of them from becoming Champion.

Also, what about a Dwarf or Kossith Champion then? I've haven't seen evidence that either of them can't be Champion.

Nothing stops a darkspawn either.    A really vicious Nug would probably qualify.

And, again, you twist what is said into something it isn't.


The proposition was that you could just sub in elf or dwarf for human with Hawke and it would all work out.   All that is being asserted in response is that it wouldn't work like that.   An elf would need far more achievements to be accepted outside of the alienage than a scion of the local aristocracy, even a foreign born one.

Even if an elf could just walk up and buy a house in the nice parts of town, which flies in the face of human behavior in the real world, that's not the same thing as being accepted.   Even if the elf was completely badass and saved the day, a lot of people would be resentful of that or deny it. 

The story would need a lot of revision to accommodate an elf PC.   That is not the same thing as "it can never be done."   But if it really was exactly the same for the elf and the human, its a cop out and yet another nose thumbed at the lore. 

If you are going to go on and on about how elves are crapped on in the novels and in the games and then elf Hawke slides in, easy peasy, its BS.   So don't tell me there's nothing to adding race options to this story besides a new character model, which what was being discussed when this was pointed out.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 22 juin 2012 - 02:01 .

[Vormaerin]

Dakota Strider wrote...

If being the Champion of Kirkwall requires that you were born into a noble family from the same city, then only a human...or possibly a half human/half elf would have a chance. But...they did not kick Fenris out of a mansion that he was squatting in, and they allowed Bertrand to buy a home in the wealthy district. It would therefore seem possible that they might have allowed non humans to rise in stature enough that they might be considered Champion. The odds would be against them, but not impossible.

Being champion of kirkwall does not require being from the aristocratic families. Its actually probably pretty rare that they would be.  But a non human would have to be super extra double badass to do it compared to a human.  

I look at the kind of stuff the first female doctors, the first black baseball players, and other such "firsts" went through compared to their white male counterparts and naturally, I think  "oh, of course, they'll go from spitting on elves to making one champion, no problem.  Everyone will just be sooo impressed.  It'll be fluffy bunnies and butterflies."   And then we'll have Viscount ElfHawke.  Whee!



THough they didn't kick Fenris out because Avelline deliberately buried the evidence of his presence.  Just as an aside.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 22 juin 2012 - 01:59 .

[Dakota Strider]

Vormaerin wrote...

[Being champion of kirkwall does not require being from the aristocratic families. Its actually probably pretty rare that they would be.  But a non human would have to be super extra double badass to do it compared to a human.  

I would assert the only thing that really made Hawke special, was that his/her mother was from a noble family.  Without that, he would have not been taken in to handle delicate issues for the Viscount, nor would have any other nobles backed Hawke for anything.  Hawke would have just been another wealthy mercenary.  Not really that uncommon.

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...

Nothing stops a darkspawn either.    A really vicious Nug would probably qualify.

Average darkspawn is near mindless, Nug's aren't sentient. Nothing could stop an awakened Darkspawn, but those a very rare and have a great deal more fear associated with them than elves or Kossith.

And, again, you twist what is said into something it isn't.

No I didn't. Both an elf and a Fereldan refugee are considered second class in Kirkwall, and both commonly inhabit Darktown and Lowtown. They are actually more similar in socioeconomic terms than a Fereldan refugee is to a Kirkwaller.

The proposition was that you could just sub in elf or dwarf for human with Hawke and it would all work out.   All that is being asserted in response is that it wouldn't work like that.   An elf would need far more achievements to be accepted outside of the alienage than a scion of the local aristocracy, even a foreign born one.

Killing the leader of an army that is destroying your city is quite an accomplishment. Hawke was named Champion because of deed, not lineage.

Even if an elf could just walk up and buy a house in the nice parts of town, which flies in the face of human behavior in the real world, that's not the same thing as being accepted.   Even if the elf was completely badass and saved the day, a lot of people would be resentful of that or deny it. 

Just like some were resentful of the growing Fereldan presence? Did you play Aveline's quest in Act 3?

The story would need a lot of revision to accommodate an elf PC.   That is not the same thing as "it can never be done."   But it really was exactly the same for the elf and the human, its a cop out and yet another nose thumbed at the lore. 

Nope, rags to riches works for both. Doesn't fly in the face of the lore as there is no stated law that elves are forbidden titles due to skill.

If you are going to go on and on about how elves are crapped on in the novels and in the games and then elf Hawke slides in, easy peasy, its BS.   So don't tell me there's nothing to adding race options to this story besides a new character model, which what was being discussed when this was pointed out.

Did you play the beginning/Act 1 of DA2? Does "Fereldan dog" ring a bell perhaps? Human Kirkwallers seem to hate the refugees about as much as they hated elves.

If it doesn't work for elves, why wouldn't it work for a dwarf(who are respected more) or a Kossith(who don't seem to take as much sh*t)? You keep focusing only on one race and ignoring the other two.

[robertthebard]

Dakota Strider wrote...

If being the Champion of Kirkwall requires that you were born into a noble family from the same city, then only a human...or possibly a half human/half elf would have a chance. But...they did not kick Fenris out of a mansion that he was squatting in, and they allowed Bertrand to buy a home in the wealthy district. It would therefore seem possible that they might have allowed non humans to rise in stature enough that they might be considered Champion. The odds would be against them, but not impossible.

Bartrand is a member of the Merchant's Guild, which controls a lot of trade, and the lyrium trade with both the Circle and the Chantry.  He is a surface Dwarf Noble, in all but name, and it's unfortunate that this turned to non-human, because in my opinion, dwarves wouldn't have a hard time being Champion at all.  They would, however, be hard pressed to care about picking sides in an arguement where, if they are, like Bartrand/Varric, making money off both sides.  Surface dwarves have no stigma in surface cultures, it's only in dwarven culture that there is a stigma attached to being a surfacer.  In Orzammar, Surfacers are less than Casteless.  We can see that in any origin, once we get there, but it's made clear in one of the side quests in the DN origin.

Elves, on the other hand, have it rough.  This was by design, and there was a lot of time invested in painting that picture for us.  Some would disregard that background, all the while applauding it.  I think maybe BioWare should have released the Warden story later, rather than before any other parts.  They should have given people the chance to see that this is indeed a different universe than D&D/D&D based cRPG's.  Having the Origins mixed in with being a Warden left everyone confused into believing that all the races were created equal, and they're not.  We have never seen Arlathan, and frankly, we don't know if it ever really existed, and wasn't cooked up by some elven story teller to give his people hope, and over the centuries, it got warped into history, instead of fiction.  Of course, we don't know that it didn't either.  Truth be told, we know a lot less about elves in this setting than any one else.  We have lots of codex entries, but we have nothing that states definitively; this is what it means to be elven.  This is why Merrill obssesses about the mirror, she wants to know what that really means.  She believes that it will be significant to her people.  The Dalish, for all their attempting to keep the lore of their race, aren't much further along the path to enlightenment than the "flat ears" are.  Even amongst elves, there is a stigma attached to being an Alienage elf.

[Vormaerin]

wsandista wrote...

No I didn't. Both an elf and a Fereldan refugee are considered second class in Kirkwall, and both commonly inhabit Darktown and Lowtown. They are actually more similar in socioeconomic terms than a Fereldan refugee is to a Kirkwaller.

Yes, you did, because you are acting like I am saying its absolutely impossible that a non human would ever become a Champion.  I've said no such thing.  I said that it was impossible that you could just copy/paste the Hawke story onto another race and have it make sense.  A human Hawke would have a far easier time of it than elf, even a Ferelden human  (which Hawke's mother isn't, even if you want to say he is).

There are degrees of 2nd class in real life.   Look at the difference between "brown" and "black"  under Apartheid or the similar, but less extreme, version of that that exists in South and Central America.    "Poor white trash" could be cleaned up in the Old South in ways that even a much better off black never could.

But, yes, the Fereldens are in a bad way.  That's one of the important factors of the Amell ancestry.  It changes Hawke from "foreigner" to "foreign born local" once its reclaimed.

wsandista wrote..
Killing the leader of an army that is destroying your city is quite an accomplishment. Hawke was named Champion because of deed, not lineage.

I know.  But the problem would have been in the lead up to that, where "Mr. Amell" has a lot more social access than the elf would have.  Maybe ElfHawke would have had the same access to the Chantry, the Viscount, and so on.  But it seems unlikely.

wsandista wrote..
Just like some were resentful of the growing Fereldan presence? Did you play Aveline's quest in Act 3?

Nope, rags to riches works for both. Doesn't fly in the face of the lore as there is no stated law that elves are forbidden titles due to skill.

Again, it can work.  It just can't work by copy pasting the Human Hawke story onto an elf, which is what was being talked about when I objected.

wsandista wrote..
Did you play the beginning/Act 1 of DA2? Does "Fereldan dog" ring a bell perhaps? Human Kirkwallers seem to hate the refugees about as much as they hated elves.

If it doesn't work for elves, why wouldn't it work for a dwarf(who are respected more) or a Kossith(who don't seem to take as much sh*t)? You keep focusing only on one race and ignoring the other two.

It wouldn't work for a Kossith, because a Kossith would have a completely different relationship with the Arishok in Act 2. And a Tal Vashoth Kossith would have a harder time of it than a human would.  The Tal'Vashoth family would be quite different, too.  So, again, you'd be writing a significantly different storyline. 

A surface dwarf would probably work pretty well.   The problem with a dwarf background would be with the siblings.  You'd have to do something about Bethany.   I suppose there's no reason you can't have a dwarf templar, though I don't think any non human templars have ever been shown.




You seem to think I am opposed to other races or think they can never be used.  I'm not.  I'm opposed to the idea of race as some interchangeable characteristic that hardly affects the story.    The Hawke story is not well suited for that.  You can write stories that are.   Baldur's Gate and NWN2 both used "your race is irrelevant, because you were raised in the same place by the same person regardless of your race" backgrounds.   And they were telling personal revenge stories (at least at first), which works for anyone.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 22 juin 2012 - 11:22 .

[wsandista]

Vormaerin wrote...


There are degrees of 2nd class in real life.   Look at the difference between "brown" and "black"  under Apartheid or the similar, but less extreme, version of that that exists in South and Central America.    "Poor white trash" could be cleaned up in the Old South in ways that even a much better off black never could.

But, yes, the Fereldens are in a bad way.  That's one of the important factors of the Amell ancestry.  It changes Hawke from "foreigner" to "foreign born local" once its reclaimed.

The proper comparison would be the Fereldans to the Irish and Kirkwallers to the English. "Poor White Trash" in the American soth are undesirables, but not outsiders. Elves and Fereldans are outsiders in Kirkwall.

Do you know how the English treat the Irish? Compare that to how Blacks were treated during the 16th-19th centuries and you will see a stunning similarity.

Ferldans trying to live inKirkwall couldn't be "cleaned uo" to where they were always natives.

I know.  But the problem would have been in the lead up to that, where "Mr. Amell" has a lot more social access than the elf would have.  Maybe ElfHawke would have had the same access to the Chantry, the Viscount, and so on.  But it seems unlikely.

Not really. Hawke was still a nobody even when (s)he got rich and moved into Hightown. Not to mention that not only does the Amell family carry the stigma of magc, but Hawke is the child of a Fereldan(who are looked down upon in Kirkwall) Apostate(who are really disliked by the population). Everything about Hawke translates to "second-class" citizen in Kirkwall.

As far as access, The Viscount first hires Hawke to save his son, something that does not require Hawke to be a noble. Then the Arishok calls for hawke, not the Viscount. Nothing about Hawkes' background influenced either one of those actions.

Again, it can work.  It just can't work by copy pasting the Human Hawke story onto an elf, which is what was being talked about when I objected.

Step1:Flee from Ferledan
Step2:get rich in an expedition
Step3: Save the city
Step4: Be Champion

Nothing about those steps require any background at all.

It wouldn't work for a Kossith, because a Kossith would have a completely different relationship with the Arishok in Act 2. And a Tal Vashoth Kossith would have a harder time of it than a human would.  The Tal'Vashoth family would be quite different, too.  So, again, you'd be writing a significantly different storyline. 

The Kossith could be born ouside the Qunari, Tal'Vashoth are Qunari who have left the Qun. So if the Kossith has never been a Qunari, then he would be no different than any other individual to the Arishok.

A surface dwarf would probably work pretty well.   The problem with a dwarf background would be with the siblings.  You'd have to do something about Bethany.   I suppose there's no reason you can't have a dwarf templar, though I don't think any non human templars have ever been shown.

The PC's family don't need to be involved. The Dwarf could run across Leiandra and Bethany as they were fleeing Lothering. The tale would play out differently, but I thought that's what you wanted from Origins.

You seem to think I am opposed to other races or think they can never be used.  I'm not.  I'm opposed to the idea of race as some interchangeable characteristic that hardly affects the story.    The Hawke story is not well suited for that.  You can write stories that are.   Baldur's Gate and NWN2 both used "your race is irrelevant, because you were raised in the same place by the same person regardless of your race" backgrounds.   And they were telling personal revenge stories (at least at first), which works for anyone.

Race effected story in DAO, several character mentioned your race, your race effected the epilogue and most importantly you knew what race the PC was. The wardenhood of the PC just seemed to play a bigger part, but that was probably because on most main quests, the PC pretty much declared "I'm with the Wardens and you need to help us out".

Modifié par wsandista, 22 juin 2012 - 06:26 .

[indyracing]

Sakanade wrote...

artistic integrity

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