Aller au contenu

Photo

Can someone explain to me why infiltrator is a problem


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
248 réponses à ce sujet

#226
Pitznik

Pitznik
  • Members
  • 2 838 messages

Malditor wrote...


On silver any class can dominate if you have the right set up, same can be said about gold to a certain extent. Also a lot has to do with your team mates, if they are sub par you will look better than if they are your equal or better. Basically if you only play silver you will get to a point where you "overgear the instance " to use your phrasing. At that point the difficulty level becomes trivial.

Every class can dominate, if other players will allow it, but Krysae Infiltrator does it effortlessly. Also, my weapons after reaching X won't get any better, my characters won't gain any more levels. At some point the only factor that keeps on changing is my skill, and that is another thing that shows ME3 is a shooter. I have every weapon I really need, I only could use some more gear, and max few URs, not because they're so good, but because they let me play in different (not better) way. I won't get anything better than Claymore X, Krysae X, or GPS X.

Modifié par Pitznik, 15 juin 2012 - 05:15 .


#227
Poison_Berrie

Poison_Berrie
  • Members
  • 2 205 messages

ryoldschool wrote...

Point (1), the 40% being a multiplier.   The reason I doubt this ( without an official source from a developer ) is that in ME2 the ammo power calculation was thought to be xyz and it was not until like six months after game release that a developer said that the actual game engine did not calculate the damage the way that the designer thought.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/347/index/10639449

This guy figured it out. There's no official word from Bioware, but this seems to be as close to it as possible.
Apparently the 40% modifies base weapon damage from which all other values are calculated.
Thus Widow I and passive damage bonus of 20%:
867*1.4*(1+0.9+0.2)  rather than 867*(1+0.9+0.4+0.2)

#228
seedubya85

seedubya85
  • Members
  • 368 messages
because the score matters to more people than admit it :D

#229
Kuato Livezz

Kuato Livezz
  • Members
  • 1 034 messages
Engineers are stripping shields and Infiltrators are getting all the kills without a "Thanks Bro" from the infiltrator. Engineers come to the forum all mad and start posting Nerf threads.

#230
my Aim is True

my Aim is True
  • Members
  • 533 messages
I don't understand it either. People used to complain about nova-spamming Vanguards, now the Infiltrator is the source of their ire.

#231
COLZ7R

COLZ7R
  • Members
  • 845 messages
Its not a problem really, if you take a closer look at the ****load of recent threads about this "issue" you will see the same dozen or so people goin on about the same thing all the time. these experts should really get their own little sub-forum so they stop turning this one into another bf3 nerf everything zone

#232
Arppis

Arppis
  • Members
  • 12 750 messages
Asking for nerfs is stupid when it's not stupidly overpowered.

I think Infiltrators are as fine as Vanguards are. Completely legit.

COLZ7R wrote...

Its not a problem really, if you take a
closer look at the ****load of recent threads about this "issue" you
will see the same dozen or so people goin on about the same thing all
the time. these experts should really get their own little sub-forum so
they stop turning this one into another bf3 nerf everything zone


When people see that developers are listening, they will keep on posting those opinions till they go trough.

This is the case with WoW too. When people see whining works, they will keep doing it till they get what they want.

Modifié par Arppis, 15 juin 2012 - 07:04 .


#233
heybigmoney

heybigmoney
  • Members
  • 1 192 messages

another reject wrote...

People are throwing around all sorts of nerf suggestions for TC to reign the damage an infiltrator can deal in a bit but quite frankly the vast majority of the suggestions don't seem like the posters have a good grasp of what they're asking for and the impact that would have, there are more efficient solutions.

You want to reduce the dps an infiltrator can put out? Then boost the base cooldown time of tactical cloak from 3 to 4 seconds.

This seemingly innocuous change will not significantly impact anybody's playstyles but will drop the dps output of a cloak>shoot>cloak>shoot>cloak>shoot player by up to a third with the cumulative delays in firing depending on if they are brave enough to fire non-cloaked shots while preserving the trademark spike damage infiltrators rely on to kill the boss targets while their team kills everything else in sight like how things are supposed to be.

And while you're at it change the krysae from a sniper to an assault rifle or something, infiltrators aren't set up to be aoe death machines and this will significantly neuter the damage they can deal with this weapon while leaving it untouched for the rest of the classes and letting biotics have the spotlight back in their area of expertise.


I also agree with the slight cooldown nerf.  It doesn't drastically change their playstyle but succeeds in lowering their dps and forces infils to fight for a short period of time outside of cloak, somewhat alleviating the constant dump aggro problem.  I feel this is a change alot of ppl could live with.

1 more tc suggestion:  Make grenade use break cloak like powers do.  It is absolutely absurd that I can wipe out whole spawns with arc grenades without even breaking cloak.  At least the other grenadiers are under some risk for spawn nuking.  Not so for quarian male infiltrator.

#234
Feauce

Feauce
  • Members
  • 308 messages

Poison_Berrie wrote...

ryoldschool wrote...

Point (1), the 40% being a multiplier.   The reason I doubt this ( without an official source from a developer ) is that in ME2 the ammo power calculation was thought to be xyz and it was not until like six months after game release that a developer said that the actual game engine did not calculate the damage the way that the designer thought.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/347/index/10639449

This guy figured it out. There's no official word from Bioware, but this seems to be as close to it as possible.
Apparently the 40% modifies base weapon damage from which all other values are calculated.
Thus Widow I and passive damage bonus of 20%:
867*1.4*(1+0.9+0.2)  rather than 867*(1+0.9+0.4+0.2)


Thank you for that. Now, a fully upgraded Tactical Cloak with the damage upgrade at Rank 4 and the sniper upgrade at Rank 6, along with class bonuses and Rank 5 gear, will give a total damage modifier of +185.5%. While this sounds very large, consider an asari Adept (not the Justicar, the plain one). With their class bonus to power damage, gear, and both biotic explosion upgrades, that's a +157% bonus to all their explosions. Comparing the two, the biotic bonus is ~15% less than the sniper bonus, but also doesn't expend ammunition. Taking the sniper bonus away, a 90% damage Cloak with the other bonuses listed above will get a +132.5% damage increase; a little over 1/3 less than with the sniper modifier. So in terms of actual damage, you're not quite getting the full 40% in the first place.

I use these examples so that we're not comparing apples to oranges. Sure, the biotic can do more than just cause explosions, but the Infiltrator can also do more than just Cloak-and-fire. Spike damage should be compared to spike damage.

Modifié par Feauce, 15 juin 2012 - 08:27 .


#235
Kyerea

Kyerea
  • Members
  • 1 265 messages

Feauce wrote...

Poison_Berrie wrote...

ryoldschool wrote...

Point (1), the 40% being a multiplier.   The reason I doubt this ( without an official source from a developer ) is that in ME2 the ammo power calculation was thought to be xyz and it was not until like six months after game release that a developer said that the actual game engine did not calculate the damage the way that the designer thought.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/347/index/10639449

This guy figured it out. There's no official word from Bioware, but this seems to be as close to it as possible.
Apparently the 40% modifies base weapon damage from which all other values are calculated.
Thus Widow I and passive damage bonus of 20%:
867*1.4*(1+0.9+0.2)  rather than 867*(1+0.9+0.4+0.2)


Thank you for that. Now, a fully upgraded Tactical Cloak with the damage upgrade at Rank 4 and the sniper upgrade at Rank 6, along with class bonuses and Rank 5 gear, will give a total damage modifier of +185.5%. While this sounds very large, consider an asari Adept (not the Justicar, the plain one). With their class bonus to power damage, gear, and both biotic explosion upgrades, that's a +157% bonus to all their explosions. Comparing the two, the biotic bonus is ~15% less than the sniper bonus, but also doesn't expend ammunition. Taking the sniper bonus away, a 90% damage Cloak with the other bonuses listed above will get a +132.5% damage increase; a little over 1/3 less than with the sniper modifier. So in terms of actual damage, you're not quite getting the full 40% in the first place.

I use these examples so that we're not comparing apples to oranges. Sure, the biotic can do more than just cause explosions, but the Infiltrator can also do more than just Cloak-and-fire. Spike damage should be compared to spike damage.


Wow, thanks for putting that in perspective dude. So, what are these Asari Adept players complainng about again? Lol.

I like how some of the players who complain about Infiltrators burst-dps modifiers are OP yet don't want to bring up their own gigantic biotic damage bonuses by comparison (of which does not need ammo and is constant).

Modifié par Kyerea, 15 juin 2012 - 09:10 .


#236
heybigmoney

heybigmoney
  • Members
  • 1 192 messages

Feauce wrote...

Poison_Berrie wrote...

ryoldschool wrote...

Point (1), the 40% being a multiplier.   The reason I doubt this ( without an official source from a developer ) is that in ME2 the ammo power calculation was thought to be xyz and it was not until like six months after game release that a developer said that the actual game engine did not calculate the damage the way that the designer thought.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/347/index/10639449

This guy figured it out. There's no official word from Bioware, but this seems to be as close to it as possible.
Apparently the 40% modifies base weapon damage from which all other values are calculated.
Thus Widow I and passive damage bonus of 20%:
867*1.4*(1+0.9+0.2)  rather than 867*(1+0.9+0.4+0.2)


Thank you for that. Now, a fully upgraded Tactical Cloak with the damage upgrade at Rank 4 and the sniper upgrade at Rank 6, along with class bonuses and Rank 5 gear, will give a total damage modifier of +185.5%. While this sounds very large, consider an asari Adept (not the Justicar, the plain one). With their class bonus to power damage, gear, and both biotic explosion upgrades, that's a +157% bonus to all their explosions. Comparing the two, the biotic bonus is ~15% less than the sniper bonus, but also doesn't expend ammunition. Taking the sniper bonus away, a 90% damage Cloak with the other bonuses listed above will get a +132.5% damage increase; a little over 1/3 less than with the sniper modifier. So in terms of actual damage, you're not quite getting the full 40% in the first place.

I use these examples so that we're not comparing apples to oranges. Sure, the biotic can do more than just cause explosions, but the Infiltrator can also do more than just Cloak-and-fire. Spike damage should be compared to spike damage.


Power dmg passives including the asari justicar tree, gear, and consumables DO NOT increase biotic explosion dmg.  Its based off of the talent rank, and the increased detonation dmg talent if available.

#237
donnyrides

donnyrides
  • Members
  • 316 messages
NeRf EvEyThInG!!!!

fact is, people dont like grinding an enemy down with BioExplosions and small arms just to have some ass clown invisa-geth come steal the glory with 1 invisa-shot from the 3 shot mini cannon known as the Krysae.

Yes, I know it's a team game, but if that is all people are going to use then we should just rubber band our sticks together, walk in circles and have a drink while the invisa-howitzers clean house.

#238
Poison_Berrie

Poison_Berrie
  • Members
  • 2 205 messages

Feauce wrote...

Thank you for that. Now, a fully upgraded Tactical Cloak with the damage upgrade at Rank 4 and the sniper upgrade at Rank 6, along with class bonuses and Rank 5 gear, will give a total damage modifier of +185.5%. While this sounds very large, consider an asari Adept (not the Justicar, the plain one). With their class bonus to power damage, gear, and both biotic explosion upgrades, that's a +157% bonus to all their explosions.

Biotic explosions are only effected by power rank and evolution changes, though they can get a 115% bonus (warp+shockwave) from those evolutions. How their damage is calculated is a bit more complex, their base damage is 100 - 250 and it supposedly compensates for difficulty level.

Their bloody powerfull, though.

#239
TheloniusBear

TheloniusBear
  • Members
  • 69 messages
Speaking from my personal experience, I rarely play with more than 1 Infil per game. While I do play mostely silver, at least 90% of my games I "outscore" the other 3. That's with either my MQE or HE. It most definitely comes down to player skill. Yes the infil has tons of utitily and damage. But in a silver and gold match, are they really doing so much that you are just sitting in the corner doing nothing? I highly doubt that ever happens. I play with an infiltrator buddy that train rolls through games with me. because we work well together. I know that I am helping him, especially on my MQE with tact scan, and even when I'm playing other classes. I can call out groups so that we can take them out together. Does he kill more than me? Yes. Do I still get my fair share? Absolutely. The goal is teamwork, and I honestly believe that is the heart of the issue. Most pugs don't use any. Fix that, and your issues will *mostly* go away.

#240
Feauce

Feauce
  • Members
  • 308 messages

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Feauce wrote...

Thank you for that. Now, a fully upgraded Tactical Cloak with the damage upgrade at Rank 4 and the sniper upgrade at Rank 6, along with class bonuses and Rank 5 gear, will give a total damage modifier of +185.5%. While this sounds very large, consider an asari Adept (not the Justicar, the plain one). With their class bonus to power damage, gear, and both biotic explosion upgrades, that's a +157% bonus to all their explosions.

Biotic explosions are only effected by power rank and evolution changes, though they can get a 115% bonus (warp+shockwave) from those evolutions. How their damage is calculated is a bit more complex, their base damage is 100 - 250 and it supposedly compensates for difficulty level.


Any source for that one? Lol.

Poison_Berrie wrote...

[They're] bloody powerfull, though.


Yep. And useful for taking out the heavies.

Modifié par Feauce, 15 juin 2012 - 11:03 .


#241
Zeromarro4

Zeromarro4
  • Members
  • 521 messages

FPSBlake wrote...

 I'm not sure exactly why I see so many complaints about infiltrators. They do a lot of damage and can slip enemies but who cares? Aren't co op Games about fun? It just blows my mind to see so many people complaining about somone on their team being too good. I mean really all an infiltrator nerf would do is make another useless class and lead players to find something else just as good.If you don't like infiltrators don't play in lobbies with them it's that simple. Complaining about a class so it gets nerfed won't make you any better at the game so who cares. Let's just let things be and have fun.




I agree with you and I don't even use infiltrators! The people who want them nerfed or eliminated tend to be score board ****s in my eexperience. they are upset because someone has a play style that facilitates easy waves. 

#242
Malditor

Malditor
  • Members
  • 557 messages

donnyrides wrote...

NeRf EvEyThInG!!!!

fact is, people dont like grinding an enemy down with BioExplosions and small arms just to have some ass clown invisa-geth come steal the glory with 1 invisa-shot from the 3 shot mini cannon known as the Krysae.

Yes, I know it's a team game, but if that is all people are going to use then we should just rubber band our sticks together, walk in circles and have a drink while the invisa-howitzers clean house.


I love warp/throw spamming a couple of geth primes and blowing up any other enemies that wander into the kill zone. It's supremely satisfying. You don't even have to really be out of cover long enough to get shot if you time it and anything short of primes that wander close just get insta-grab killed.

#243
Gamemako

Gamemako
  • Members
  • 1 657 messages

Feauce wrote...

Any source for that one? Lol.


I'll see if I can find the old thread where a dev confirmed that the damage is normalized and not affected by power damage bonuses. I thought it was that old mechanics sticky, but I can't even find it anymore. :(

//EDIT: But yeah, damage is based on prime and detonator ranks (not evolutions, just ranks) and detonation bonuses. Not affected by power damage bonuses.

//EDIT 2: Derp, forgot to post:

http://social.biowar...index/9822648/1

Modifié par Gamemako, 15 juin 2012 - 11:10 .


#244
Thrillskr

Thrillskr
  • Members
  • 100 messages
Oh, this again. Awesome.
All the crying from people who only care about score.
Now, dont get me wrong, im all for balance, i dont even use Krysae or Reegar for that very reason.
But as its been pointed out time and again, infiltrators job is assassination, which means high spike damage. Thats their thing. If You try and nerf their damage bonuses, whats the point of the class ? Invisible revives for teammates ? Ill take high DPS class over that any day, thanks. Maybe that makes me sound like an arsehat but i play for my pleasure and for ME to have fun. I revive when i can but if infiltrator was to be nerfed and delegated to glorified medic role, id just go human soldier with her mad (and much longer lasting, and shield-charging) damage boost.
Crying about inf being able to do objectives unseen just makes me laugh. Its ONE out of 4 objective types that he can do, and i fail to see how thats such an unfair advantage. Have a cloakyface in the team ? Let him go and do it, and mop up the map in the meantime. Not ? You have to go in a bunch and cover the hacker or draw aggrow away. One thing id take away is cloak affecting arc grenades for mr quarian-i-zap-all-with-my-electricks. Grenades not breaking cloak is fine, but the fact they get damage bonus is a bit much. Or, buff other grenade wielders to get damage bonuses from the skill too (human soldier with ARush, for example).
Now, this thread has been done and done and done again. Stop crying so much or well all drown in Your tears.

Modifié par Thrillskr, 15 juin 2012 - 11:29 .


#245
Gamemako

Gamemako
  • Members
  • 1 657 messages

Thrillskr wrote...

All the crying from people who only care about score.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Thrillskr wrote...

But as its been pointed out time and again, infiltrators job is assassination, which means high spike damage. Thats their thing. If You try and nerf their damage bonuses, whats the point of the class ? Invisible revives for teammates ?Ill take high DPS class over that any day, thanks.


Infinite repositioning? Ability to stealth-hack objectives and kill targets without facing the wall of Banshees in front of them? Instant aggro drop?

If you want to play a high-DPS class, you should be playing a Soldier. That's the purpose of the Soldier. The Infiltrator is supposed to be a stealthy tech specialist, not an infinite-damage win button.

Thrillskr wrote...

Maybe that makes me sound like an arsehat but i play for my pleasure and for ME to have fun. I revive when i can but if infiltrator was to be nerfed and delegated to glorified medic role, id just go human soldier with her mad (and much longer lasting, and shield-charging) damage boost.


Except that the Infil's damage boost is twice that of a Soldier's and can be kept up for up to 62.5% of the time (2.5s of damage buff over the course of 1 seconds of cloak and 3 seconds of cooldown). If the infiltrator's damage bonus was cut in half, you'd still be smarter to take the Infil because he'd still do just as much damage and get the many other perks of TC to boot.

Thrillskr wrote...

Crying about inf being able to do objectives unseen just makes me laugh. Its ONE out of 4 objective types that he can do, and i fail to see how thats such an unfair advantage.


He also excels at the assassination objective. The only one he doesn't excel at is the new objective. Of course, I'm totally fine with his ability to do objectives. It's a good thing. It's what you'd want an infiltrator to do. Now, an infiltrator being a combat deity? Not so much. More infiltrate, less obliterate.

Thrillskr wrote...

One thing id take away is cloak affecting arc grenades for mr quarian-i-zap-all-with-my-electricks. Grenades not breaking cloak is fine, but the fact they get damage bonus is a bit much. Or, buff other grenade wielders to get damage bonuses from the skill too (human soldier with ARush, for example).


It's really just that Arc Grenades aren't total ****, unlike sticky grenades. I'm sure you recognize how much damage you can do with Proxy Mines as well.

Modifié par Gamemako, 16 juin 2012 - 12:21 .


#246
Scudman_Alpha

Scudman_Alpha
  • Members
  • 547 messages
 wel co-op games are about fun but they're also supposed to be ya  know co-op it requires co-operation and fun while doing it
thats what a co-op game is meant to be

now there are a few infiltrators that do nothing but keep a t the fartest point of the map away form the team and just snipe with TC to kill enemies and not helping the team on objectives and reviving (in which TC helps out...A LOT)


those types of guys are just a bad thing in the team because they kill yes but they don't help in anything else :/

thats why i want Tc to be nerfed,so there can be less infiltrators that don't help the team but kill things and never acutually leave the same place to get an objective or anything

Tactical Cloak is useful for other things instead of killing things people!

#247
smokesheller87

smokesheller87
  • Members
  • 85 messages
I'm more surprised everyone hasn't gotten tired of posting in all these threads that are essentially the same ****ing thing. People need to stop posting new ones and actually use the search and go post there.

As for my thoughts, leave TC alone, AR has more benefit's for DPS than TC does imo(auto reload, full shields, lasts longer) and not sure if this happens to anyone else lol but my TC gets bugged rather often(don't use Krysea) so what they need to do is fix it, and that should be all they do to it!

#248
Poison_Berrie

Poison_Berrie
  • Members
  • 2 205 messages

Feauce wrote...

Any source for that one? Lol.

Gamemako already gave the source. It's straight from the developers this time.

#249
Thrillskr

Thrillskr
  • Members
  • 100 messages

Gamemako wrote...


Infinite repositioning? Ability to stealth-hack objectives and kill targets without facing the wall of Banshees in front of them? Instant aggro drop?

If you want to play a high-DPS class, you should be playing a Soldier. That's the purpose of the Soldier. The Infiltrator is supposed to be a stealthy tech specialist, not an infinite-damage win button.


Says who, You ? You want them to be glorified engineers who can go invisible. No. Fact is, Infiltrators default weapon is and always has been a sniper rifle, which suggests hes supposed, oh i dont know, KILL WITH IT. Sniper rifle means high spike damage as opposed to sustained wall of DPS, and therefore his abilities are suited for spike damage attacks. Also, note that most infs have ONE tech ability. How is that a techy class? And id argue about proxy mine being a tech ability, its a proximity mine. Nothing techy about it, apart from its classification as tech to allow for tech bursts. 
As for instant aggro-drop its semi-true, the amount of times ive been killed while cloaked and trying to revive or just trying to repisition is unreal.
Soldier is supposed to be jack-of-all-trades frontline man/woman, and thats what they are in game. They put out very good dps and they can take a fair beating. Its never been stated that soldier should be the damage dealer, its all in Your head. Stop using Your personal opinions as facts. 
Also, im sure Youve seen, amount of appauling infs in the game is huge, people who die constantly and cant use the utiliry and high damage the class provides. So clearly, not so much 'i-win' button. It can be when used right. But so can be kroguard, AA HS and few others.

Gamemako wrote...

Except that the Infil's damage boost is twice that of a Soldier's and can be kept up for up to 62.5% of the time (2.5s of damage buff over the course of 1 seconds of cloak and 3 seconds of cooldown). If the infiltrator's damage bonus was cut in half, you'd still be smarter to take the Infil because he'd still do just as much damage and get the many other perks of TC to boot.

 
Its twice that of a soldier assuming You use a sniper rifle and spec TC for sniper damage. Lot of people use shotguns and i personally use a harrier.
Also, soldiers boost is suited for sustained DPS, preferably for an assault rifle. Problem is, the way armor works renders most assault rifles far too weak to be considered seriously on gold. I personally think assault rifles should have innate bonus to armor piercing or at least have the damage reduction from armor cut in half. But, thats completely another matter, and also not infiltrators fault.


Gamemako wrote...

He also excels at the assassination objective. The only one he doesn't excel at is the new objective. Of course, I'm totally fine with his ability to do objectives. It's a good thing. It's what you'd want an infiltrator to do. Now, an infiltrator being a combat deity? Not so much. More infiltrate, less obliterate.


How about old stationary hack where you cant get away from aggro? As for assassination i should damn well think so, they are assassins after all. They do and are supposed to do spike damage versus single target. And it pretty much never matters in game, everyone goes after the target, infiltrators or not. Except FBW farmers i guess - but again - not infiltrators fault.


Gamemako wrote...

It's really just that Arc Grenades aren't total ****, unlike sticky grenades. I'm sure you recognize how much damage you can do with Proxy Mines as well.


I do, but its nothing compared to well specced arc grenade user. I use Warfighter V and i go around with 4 grenades and let me tell you, i can obliterate enemy spawn without even having to break cloak. If i used grenade capacity it would be even more ludacris. Thing is this, sticky grenades are too weak, and proxy mine You can only use once - itll either decloak You or, if You have bonus power trait, use another one after sitting there in cloak and waiting for it to recharge. Uh-huh. And arc's You can spam from cloak as long as you have any in Your pockets and then You can shoot them in the face too.
This is just my opinion but as i said, i use QMI with aggressive grenade/harrier build and let me tell You, those things are simply silly. As long as You have them geth and cerberus simply cant touch You, if You happen to get ambushed just zap them with a grenade stun and shoot them to death. Get out of jail free card.

Now that ive reread it, this post may seem hostile. That was not my intention, it just kinda turned out that way. Dont think of this as an attack, i just think Your view on infs is a bit wrong is all, but Youre entitled to it just the same as i am to my view.

Modifié par Thrillskr, 16 juin 2012 - 11:18 .