140 réponses à ce sujet

[Memnon]

The point isn't necessarily why Vorcha tie to EMS - it's more along the lines of, why does EMS affect your choices in the Crucible?

Modifié par Stornskar, 14 juin 2012 - 07:39 .

[Peranor]

What is this "multiplayer" people keep talking about?

[HellishFiend]

MegaSovereign wrote...
Vorcha, or any N7 specialist for that matter, can be used to replace regular ground forces that would be more useful doing something else. For example, they can be on ships defending the Crucible while it's being delivered to the Citadel.

EMS doesn't just determine how well built the Crucible is. It also determines how much fleets you have defending it when you are deploying it.

That is a headcanon explanation at best, and straw grasping at worst. We are given nothing in established lore, precedent, or codex to lead us to believe that reorganization of the deployment of ground troops can have any effect at all on the construction quality, strength, or options available to the Crucible. 

Hackett even goes out of his way to point out that there is a differentiation between Crucible assets and "other" assets. To paraphrase, he said something like "Find me people that can help with the Crucible. Aside from that, I'll take anything you can get. Troops, supplies, ships, anything!"

[Makrys]

Stornskar wrote...

And that is why I said I was cynical - as much as I would love for you to be right, and that this has all been a part of the master plan from the very beginning (which would be absolutely brilliant), my gut tells me they just ran out of time and threw something together at the last minute

You don't develop a game chronologically. The entire thing was rushed, not just the ending. So its not like they had 10 minutes to think of something for the end, and then just went with it. They had an idea from the start, and a timetable, albeit short, but a timetable to work within. So, they took said idea (possibly IT) and ran with the story.

Bioware confirmed that the endings were intended to be dreamy and confusing. So, make of that what you will.

Modifié par Makrys, 14 juin 2012 - 07:42 .

[HellishFiend]

Stornskar wrote...

The point isn't necessarily why Vorcha tie to EMS - it's more along the lines of, why does EMS affect your choices in the Crucible?

Yep, exactly. And promoting Vorcha from multiplayer was the most ridiculous example I could come up with. 

[luper567]

HellishFiend wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...
Thats fine, I accept that as a plausible explanation. But it's not a story-based explanation, which is what I'm looking for. Explanations like these are basically a fancy way of saying that there is no available answer to my question, therefore it is silly for me to ask. I wont accept that. 

I accept that you don't accept it, hehe. I'm actually in agreement with you - EMS rating as it ties to your end-game choices is completely baffling and makes absolutely no sense, and I've mentioned that many, many times.

Thanks, I'm glad at least some people understand the point of this topic. 

To be honest, I think it is an unanswerable question, and I will be shocked if anyone has a plausible explanation. 

I could try to fanwank one, if you like.  In effect, the promoted MP characters are added to Hammer, and contribute the same way a named war asset character (like Wrex or the VS if you told them to take the job with Hackett) would.  Each of the three forces contributes to the effectiveness of the Crucible.  Hammer and Sword contributes to the length of time it takes to get the Crucible docked (and thus, whether or not it takes damage); while, as you said, crucible assets affect how well the machine works, if at all.

EMS matters because it represents the active influence of the player in directing the allied forces before the end.  The more direction they had, the better they do,  and the fewer losses they took before the end.  It's a lot easier to see this connection with the Datapad app than with multiplayer.  There you're deploying fleets to strategic locations.  It's stylized, obviously, but we're not actually running a galaxy-wide war

At least, that's how it should work.  The fact that the ending doesn't make checks for specific war assets, ala the suicide mission, is a little lame.  That said, no one factor in something as big as this is likely to be decisive.

Anyway, that's my head-canon; do with it what you will.

[FellishBeast]

anorling wrote...


What is this "multiplayer" people keep talking about?

It's keeping me from playing Diablo 3. So it's something I both love and hate. Or hate to love. Or something.

I just reminded myself of an Alice in Chains song. I win.

[Makrys]

HellishFiend wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

The point isn't necessarily why Vorcha tie to EMS - it's more along the lines of, why does EMS affect your choices in the Crucible?

Yep, exactly. And promoting Vorcha from multiplayer was the most ridiculous example I could come up with. 

Basically, Hellish is being brilliant here, and no one recognized it initally so many bashed him for his seemingly retarded idea.

Then later, Hellish revealed his true point, which was brilliant and wowed many.

Hmmm, sounds familiar.

[MegaSovereign]

HellishFiend wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...
Vorcha, or any N7 specialist for that matter, can be used to replace regular ground forces that would be more useful doing something else. For example, they can be on ships defending the Crucible while it's being delivered to the Citadel.

EMS doesn't just determine how well built the Crucible is. It also determines how much fleets you have defending it when you are deploying it.

That is a headcanon explanation at best, and straw grasping at worst. We are given nothing in established lore, precedent, or codex to lead us to believe that reorganization of the deployment of ground troops can have any effect at all on the construction quality, strength, or options available to the Crucible. 

Hackett even goes out of his way to point out that there is a differentiation between Crucible assets and "other" assets. To paraphrase, he said something like "Find me people that can help with the Crucible. Aside from that, I'll take anything you can get. Troops, supplies, ships, anything!"

"That is a headcanon explanation at best"

You asked for one, I gave it to you. Don't ask questions if you don't want a ****ing answer.

Next time don't be so rude. You responded positively to the non-serious answers. But whenever I gave you a plausible explanation you start saying I'm grasping at straws...

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 14 juin 2012 - 07:47 .

[HellishFiend]

Makrys wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

The point isn't necessarily why Vorcha tie to EMS - it's more along the lines of, why does EMS affect your choices in the Crucible?

Yep, exactly. And promoting Vorcha from multiplayer was the most ridiculous example I could come up with. 

Basically, Hellish is being brilliant here, and no one recognized it initally so many bashed him for his seemingly retarded idea.

Then later, Hellish revealed his true point, which was brilliant and wowed many.

Hmmm, sounds familiar.

Great minds think alike. *high five to Bioware*

[HellishFiend]

MegaSovereign wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...
Vorcha, or any N7 specialist for that matter, can be used to replace regular ground forces that would be more useful doing something else. For example, they can be on ships defending the Crucible while it's being delivered to the Citadel.

EMS doesn't just determine how well built the Crucible is. It also determines how much fleets you have defending it when you are deploying it.

That is a headcanon explanation at best, and straw grasping at worst. We are given nothing in established lore, precedent, or codex to lead us to believe that reorganization of the deployment of ground troops can have any effect at all on the construction quality, strength, or options available to the Crucible. 

Hackett even goes out of his way to point out that there is a differentiation between Crucible assets and "other" assets. To paraphrase, he said something like "Find me people that can help with the Crucible. Aside from that, I'll take anything you can get. Troops, supplies, ships, anything!"

"That is a headcanon explanation at best"

You asked for one, I gave it to you. Don't ask questions if you don't want a ****ing answer.

Next time don't be so rude.

Being rude was not my intention. I apologize, if that helps. 

[Erield]

HellishFiend wrote...

Yep, exactly. And promoting Vorcha from multiplayer was the most ridiculous example I could come up with. 

Ridiculous achieved!

[MegaSovereign]

Being rude was not my intention. I apologize, if that helps.

You responded positively to the non-serious answers. But whenever I gave you a plausible explanation you start saying I'm grasping at straws.

You're welcome to critique it. But don't dismiss it entirely be calling it headcanon. If we dismissed headcanons then things like IT wouldn't exist.

[Memnon]

Makrys wrote...

You don't develop a game chronologically. The entire thing was rushed, not just the ending. So its not like they had 10 minutes to think of something for the end, and then just went with it. They had an idea from the start, and a timetable, albeit short, but a timetable to work within. So, they took said idea (possibly IT) and ran with the story.

Bioware confirmed that the endings were intended to be dreamy and confusing. So, make of that what you will.

Again, I will call myself cautiously optimistic but cynical re: IT, and I would be very much pleasantly surprised if it comes to pass. Having said that, when making a game you have a design from the beginning that you follow, but that document is not engraved in titanium and can (and most likely will) be changed. My guess is they built to the original plans and requirements, but the plans were edited towards the end.

When I play Rannoch and Tuchanka, it it flows well, feels complete and part of the story ... when I move past that, it feels like I hit a part where they thought, eh we need to get this done in a hurry. When I reach the Citadel I feel like I'm at a part where they said, "just put something out there asap and we'll call it art"

[HellishFiend]

luper567 wrote...

I could try to fanwank one, if you like.  In effect, the promoted MP characters are added to Hammer, and contribute the same way a named war asset character (like Wrex or the VS if you told them to take the job with Hackett) would.  Each of the three forces contributes to the effectiveness of the Crucible.  Hammer and Sword contributes to the length of time it takes to get the Crucible docked (and thus, whether or not it takes damage); while, as you said, crucible assets affect how well the machine works, if at all.

EMS matters because it represents the active influence of the player in directing the allied forces before the end.  The more direction they had, the better they do,  and the fewer losses they took before the end.  It's a lot easier to see this connection with the Datapad app than with multiplayer.  There you're deploying fleets to strategic locations.  It's stylized, obviously, but we're not actually running a galaxy-wide war

At least, that's how it should work.  The fact that the ending doesn't make checks for specific war assets, ala the suicide mission, is a little lame.  That said, no one factor in something as big as this is likely to be decisive.

Anyway, that's my head-canon; do with it what you will.

Thanks.

Hmm, that could make a bit of sense I suppose. The problem is that I cant see how additional Vorcha ground forces could logically make such a significant impact on the Catalyst's attitude and your available choices. When it comes to most general assets, sure, but there are a lot of assets, such as Vorcha ground troops, that should contribute absolutely nothing to the final decision chamber choices. At that point the explanation has to dip into the game mechanics territory, which somewhat invalidates it as a storyline justified explanation. 

[HellishFiend]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Being rude was not my intention. I apologize, if that helps.

You responded positively to the non-serious answers. But whenever I gave you a plausible explanation you start saying I'm grasping at straws.

You're welcome to critique it. But don't dismiss it entirely be calling it headcanon. If we dismissed headcanons then things like IT wouldn't exist.

Unlike most posters, I dont use the word headcanon (or grasping at straws, for that matter) to be dismissive. That is probably where the misunderstanding came from.

Modifié par HellishFiend, 14 juin 2012 - 07:56 .

[HellishFiend]

Stornskar wrote...


Again, I will call myself cautiously optimistic but cynical re: IT, and I would be very much pleasantly surprised if it comes to pass. Having said that, when making a game you have a design from the beginning that you follow, but that document is not engraved in titanium and can (and most likely will) be changed. My guess is they built to the original plans and requirements, but the plans were edited towards the end.

When I play Rannoch and Tuchanka, it it flows well, feels complete and part of the story ... when I move past that, it feels like I hit a part where they thought, eh we need to get this done in a hurry. When I reach the Citadel I feel like I'm at a part where they said, "just put something out there asap and we'll call it art"

I agree with your perceptions on the flow and quality of the various parts of the game. The difference is that I choose to see them as clues rather than dip outside the storyline and see them as unfortunate casualties. Both valid viewpoints, of course. 

[luper567]

No one factor is decisive, but that doesn't mean they aren't important. The crucial ten seconds that Gork the vorcha sentinel (my name for him) bought by being on the field instead of some half-trained conscripted colony kid slowed the reaper ground forces enough to cover Sheperd while he was in transit to the teleport pad, or resulted in the Crucible not taking blowing a flux capacitor. And the better and faster everything happens, the more likely the GC is to say "new options are open to me."

[HellishFiend]

luper567 wrote...

No one factor is decisive, but that doesn't mean they aren't important. The crucial ten seconds that Gork the vorcha sentinel (my name for him) bought by being on the field instead of some half-trained conscripted colony kid slowed the reaper ground forces enough to cover Sheperd while he was in transit to the teleport pad, or resulted in the Crucible not taking blowing a flux capacitor. And the better and faster everything happens, the more likely the GC is to say "new options are open to me."

But Hammer has no impact on Sword or the active protection of the Crucible when making it's way to the Citadel. Are you saying that Shepard makes it to the decision chamber quicker because of additional ground force-based war assets and therefore has more choices available?

[Memnon]

HellishFiend wrote...
I agree with your perceptions on the flow and quality of the various parts of the game. The difference is that I choose to see them as clues rather than dip outside the storyline and see them as unfortunate casualties. Both valid viewpoints, of course. 

If you (and the IT folks in general) are right, and this has all been a part of the ME3 experience - getting the fans worked up to pull this bait and switch, it would be absolutely brilliant and unprecedented, and I would gladly eat crow and apologize for ever doubting them. Now, if I was a betting man ... well, it would feel like I'm betting on the Browns to win the Super Bowl in 2013. I wouldn't bet my life savings on it, heh

[HellishFiend]

Stornskar wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...
I agree with your perceptions on the flow and quality of the various parts of the game. The difference is that I choose to see them as clues rather than dip outside the storyline and see them as unfortunate casualties. Both valid viewpoints, of course. 

If you (and the IT folks in general) are right, and this has all been a part of the ME3 experience - getting the fans worked up to pull this bait and switch, it would be absolutely brilliant and unprecedented, and I would gladly eat crow and apologize for ever doubting them. Now, if I was a betting man ... well, it would feel like I'm betting on the Browns to win the Super Bowl in 2013. I wouldn't bet my life savings on it, heh

Whatever happens, I definitely admire your mature and realistic stance on the issue. If more people were rational in that fashion, BSN would be a much more enjoyable experience for all of us. 

[luper567]

More that it's all happening at the same time, and the butterfly effect is impacting things all over the battlefield. In this example, the more Hammer ties down reaper ground forces, the less resistance Shepard faces in getting to the teleport pad (whether you see it in gameplay or not). The less resistance Shep sees on the ground, the less time the fleet has to hold out, and the less opportunities the Crucible has to take damage.

In fact, I'd say the ground forces are the most important part of the whole equation, based on the point values assigned to assets and the comparative advantages that allied forces have to reaper forces.

[BleedingUranium]

HellishFiend wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...
I agree with your perceptions on the flow and quality of the various parts of the game. The difference is that I choose to see them as clues rather than dip outside the storyline and see them as unfortunate casualties. Both valid viewpoints, of course. 

If you (and the IT folks in general) are right, and this has all been a part of the ME3 experience - getting the fans worked up to pull this bait and switch, it would be absolutely brilliant and unprecedented, and I would gladly eat crow and apologize for ever doubting them. Now, if I was a betting man ... well, it would feel like I'm betting on the Browns to win the Super Bowl in 2013. I wouldn't bet my life savings on it, heh

Whatever happens, I definitely admire your mature and realistic stance on the issue. If more people were rational in that fashion, BSN would be a much more enjoyable experience for all of us. 

I second that.

After paying close attention to the people that are angry about the endings, and dismiss IT no matter what, I've come to the conclusion that it's not so much Pro and Anti ITer, but Pro and Anti Bioware attitudes.

If someone hates BW, they'll be the people raging about the ending, saying they got ripped off, BW are terrible writers, and even that IT would be worse that the current endings, because they were "tricked".

Everyone else either likes Bioware, or is neutral about them, and those are generally the rational ones. Friendly, open to the idea of IT, even if they're not convinced by it. You're one of those people

[Taboo]

I just hope people are happy this Summer. IT or not. I don't care anymore.

[Bill Casey]

Child: Wake up.

Vorcha: Leave human! Tell Captain Gavorn we not kill anyone today!

Child: I am the Catalyst.

Vorcha: We not trust you! Tell Gavorn we know his tricks! We not kill anyone today!

Child: The created will always rebel against the creator. But we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle. We harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone. Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here. We helped them ascend so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form.

Vorcha: Go away! Talk too much! Gavorn's thugs get no more! We leave!

Child: No you can't. Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics.

Vorcha: You no come here! We shut down machines! Break fans!

Child: The Crucible changed me. Created new possibilities. But I can't make them happen.

Vorcha: No more talk! We know Gavorn’s tricks! We leave!

Child: I know you've thought about destroying us.

Vorcha: We kill you first!

Child: You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth.

Vorcha: Everyone choke and die!

Child: Or do you think you can control us?

Vorcha: I may be ambitious, but I'm not crazy.

Child: There is another solution. Synthesis. Add you energy to the Crucible's everything you are will be absorbed and then sent out. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework, a new dna.

Vorcha: Aria T’Loak even more powerful than I thought! Her instructions for boarding Citadel undetected were one thing, now this!

Child: Synthesis is the final evolution of life

Vorcha: Then Collectors make us strong!

Child: But we need each other to make it happen.

Vorcha: You've scratched my back, now I'll scratch yours!



Vorcha: Diplomatic Immunittttyyyyyyyy!!!