140 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

luper567 wrote...

More that it's all happening at the same time, and the butterfly effect is impacting things all over the battlefield. In this example, the more Hammer ties down reaper ground forces, the less resistance Shepard faces in getting to the teleport pad (whether you see it in gameplay or not). The less resistance Shep sees on the ground, the less time the fleet has to hold out, and the less opportunities the Crucible has to take damage.

In fact, I'd say the ground forces are the most important part of the whole equation, based on the point values assigned to assets and the comparative advantages that allied forces have to reaper forces.

Except that the Crucible doesn't show up in the Sol System until you charge the beam, and doesn't get to Earth and dock until after you deal with TIM, so there really isn't anywhere it could take damage.

[M Hedonist]

I wonder if there'll be a special epilogue for those who promote tons of Vorcha characters and don't do anything else to gain war assets.
"And so, the Reapers were beaten by the least likely species of them all... the Vorcha. The Vorcha went on to become a council race."
Or have space gramps and his kid be Vorcha in that scenario.
"WE KNOW THE SHEPARD'S TRICKS, TELL US ONE MORE STORY!"
"ALRIGHT MY SWEET, ONE MORE STORY!"

Modifié par Sauruz, 14 juin 2012 - 08:24 .

[HellishFiend]

luper567 wrote...

More that it's all happening at the same time, and the butterfly effect is impacting things all over the battlefield. In this example, the more Hammer ties down reaper ground forces, the less resistance Shepard faces in getting to the teleport pad (whether you see it in gameplay or not). The less resistance Shep sees on the ground, the less time the fleet has to hold out, and the less opportunities the Crucible has to take damage.

In fact, I'd say the ground forces are the most important part of the whole equation, based on the point values assigned to assets and the comparative advantages that allied forces have to reaper forces.

Certain elements of your explanation are plausible, so good theorizing in that regard. But there are a few points that can somewhat pick it apart. First, even if we assume the additional ground troops can cause the Crucible to be in better shape when it docks with the Citadel (which I'm not entirely sold on), we are given no reason to believe that is the case. London plays out exactly the same and the Crucible looks to be in exactly the same shape when it docks. The differences are not manifested until you reach the decision chamber. I'm not sure I can accept that such superficial damage (it cant even be seen by the naked eye) would cause not only a major difference in the choices available, but also the Catalyst's attitude towards you, as well whether or not Earth gets vaporized. 

[Erield]

@ Bill Casey -- That was...amazing. I .. I can't stop laughing.

[jijeebo]

It's a game mechanic. The number is what is considered, not the individual assets which make up said number. It's the same idea as your paragon/renegade rating.

Example:

I do Samaras loyalty mission but cannot unlock Morinth, so I reload a save, talk to my crew nicely and get a few more Paragon points and replay the mission... And suddenly I can unlock Morinth.


Does it make sense in terms of the story? No. Do I let it slide because it's a feature in a game? Yes.


Also, I don't like IT and I in no way hate Bioware.

[HellishFiend]

Bill Casey wrote...

Child: Wake up.

Vorcha: Leave human! Tell Captain Gavorn we not kill anyone today!

Child: I am the Catalyst.

Vorcha: We not trust you! Tell Gavorn we know his tricks! We not kill anyone today!

Child: The created will always rebel against the creator. But we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle. We harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone. Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here. We helped them ascend so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form.

Vorcha: Go away! Talk too much! Gavorn's thugs get no more! We leave!

Child: No you can't. Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics.

Vorcha: You no come here! We shut down machines! Break fans!

Child: The Crucible changed me. Created new possibilities. But I can't make them happen.

Vorcha: No more talk! We know Gavorn’s tricks! We leave!

Child: I know you've thought about destroying us.

Vorcha: We kill you first!

Child: You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth.

Vorcha: Everyone choke and die!

Child: Or do you think you can control us?

Vorcha: I may be ambitious, but I'm not crazy.

Child: There is another solution. Synthesis. Add you energy to the Crucible's everything you are will be absorbed and then sent out. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework, a new dna.

Vorcha: Aria T’Loak even more powerful than I thought! Her instructions for boarding Citadel undetected were one thing, now this!

Child: Synthesis is the final evolution of life

Vorcha: Then Collectors make us strong!

Child: But we need each other to make it happen.

Vorcha: You've scratched my back, now I'll scratch yours!



Vorcha: Diplomatic Immunittttyyyyyyyy!!!

Bill, that is two days in a row you've blown my mind with a brilliant post. Bravo. 

[MegaSovereign]

Sauruz wrote...

I wonder if there'll be a special epilogue for those who promote tons of Vorcha characters and don't do anything else to gain war assets.
"And so, the Reapers were beaten by the least likely species of them all... the Vorcha. The Vorcha went on to become a council race."
Or have space gramps and his kid be Vorcha in that scenario.
"WE KNOW THE SHEPARD'S TRICKS, TELL US ONE MORE STORY!"
"ALRIGHT MY SWEET, ONE MORE STORY!"

Lmao this reminds me of when I saw a screenshot of Miranda being worth 5000+ war assets.

Who needs a unified galaxy when you can just let Miranda win the war for you.

[MegaSovereign]

Bill Casey wrote...

Child: Wake up.

Vorcha: Leave human! Tell Captain Gavorn we not kill anyone today!

Child: I am the Catalyst.

Vorcha: We not trust you! Tell Gavorn we know his tricks! We not kill anyone today!

Child: The created will always rebel against the creator. But we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle. We harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone. Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here. We helped them ascend so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form.

Vorcha: Go away! Talk too much! Gavorn's thugs get no more! We leave!

Child: No you can't. Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics.

Vorcha: You no come here! We shut down machines! Break fans!

Child: The Crucible changed me. Created new possibilities. But I can't make them happen.

Vorcha: No more talk! We know Gavorn’s tricks! We leave!

Child: I know you've thought about destroying us.

Vorcha: We kill you first!

Child: You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth.

Vorcha: Everyone choke and die!

Child: Or do you think you can control us?

Vorcha: I may be ambitious, but I'm not crazy.

Child: There is another solution. Synthesis. Add you energy to the Crucible's everything you are will be absorbed and then sent out. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework, a new dna.

Vorcha: Aria T’Loak even more powerful than I thought! Her instructions for boarding Citadel undetected were one thing, now this!

Child: Synthesis is the final evolution of life

Vorcha: Then Collectors make us strong!

Child: But we need each other to make it happen.

Vorcha: You've scratched my back, now I'll scratch yours!



Vorcha: Diplomatic Immunittttyyyyyyyy!!!

Oh dear lord.

Lols were had.

[M Hedonist]

Bill Casey wrote...

*snip because post was already quoted two times in this thread

I nearly choked laughing. Brilliant.

[estebanus]

Bill Casey wrote...
*snip*

 

Bill, I have to say that lately, you've been full of win.

[Dean_the_Young]

HellishFiend wrote...

I'll keep this brief so it doesnt turn into a tl;dr.

If you do a failthrough of ME3 that results in a control-only or destroy-only situation with the Catalyst, then go back and promote a mess of Vorcha from MP and replay the final leg of the game, you can amazingly have all 3 colors unlocked. 

Does anyone have a non-IT or non-Lazy/Stupid explanation for this? Are we to believe that Vorcha (or any MP characters, really) are in fact genius scientists that can radically improve the Crucible? Are they also expert pilots that cause Sword to fare much better against the Reaper fleet? 

Does not compute. 

And just in case, tl;dr: Vorcha = Additional space magic? lolwut? 

EMS reflects how well your collective assets enhance the Crucible, enhance Hammer force to gain access to the Citadel in a timely manner, and/or protect the Crucible from Reaper interference.

Vorcha and ground assets help Hammer make more/faster progress, leaving less time for the Crucible to be damaged by the Reapers.

[HellishFiend]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I'll keep this brief so it doesnt turn into a tl;dr.

If you do a failthrough of ME3 that results in a control-only or destroy-only situation with the Catalyst, then go back and promote a mess of Vorcha from MP and replay the final leg of the game, you can amazingly have all 3 colors unlocked. 

Does anyone have a non-IT or non-Lazy/Stupid explanation for this? Are we to believe that Vorcha (or any MP characters, really) are in fact genius scientists that can radically improve the Crucible? Are they also expert pilots that cause Sword to fare much better against the Reaper fleet? 

Does not compute. 

And just in case, tl;dr: Vorcha = Additional space magic? lolwut? 

EMS reflects how well your collective assets enhance the Crucible, enhance Hammer force to gain access to the Citadel in a timely manner, and/or protect the Crucible from Reaper interference.

Vorcha and ground assets help Hammer make more/faster progress, leaving less time for the Crucible to be damaged by the Reapers.

The Crucible is not brought in until it is almost time for it to dock. So the difference in the amount of time spent in Reaper controlled space should be minimal, if anything. Additionally, the EMS affects the way the Sword battle plays out, which makes little to no sense if all you did was promote Vorcha. And even if you dismiss those points, there is still the matter that the Crucible bears no visible damage whatsoever, and will literally vaporize Earth if you take away those Vorcha troops. 

Bottom line is there is no believable explanation for these outcomes without resorting to dipping outside the story into the realm of game mechanics. 

[Deltakarma]

Bill Casey wrote...

Child: Wake up.

Vorcha: Leave human! Tell Captain Gavorn we not kill anyone today!

Child: I am the Catalyst.

Vorcha: We not trust you! Tell Gavorn we know his tricks! We not kill anyone today!

Child: The created will always rebel against the creator. But we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle. We harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone. Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here. We helped them ascend so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form.

Vorcha: Go away! Talk too much! Gavorn's thugs get no more! We leave!

Child: No you can't. Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics.

Vorcha: You no come here! We shut down machines! Break fans!

Child: The Crucible changed me. Created new possibilities. But I can't make them happen.

Vorcha: No more talk! We know Gavorn’s tricks! We leave!

Child: I know you've thought about destroying us.

Vorcha: We kill you first!

Child: You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth.

Vorcha: Everyone choke and die!

Child: Or do you think you can control us?

Vorcha: I may be ambitious, but I'm not crazy.

Child: There is another solution. Synthesis. Add you energy to the Crucible's everything you are will be absorbed and then sent out. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework, a new dna.

Vorcha: Aria T’Loak even more powerful than I thought! Her instructions for boarding Citadel undetected were one thing, now this!

Child: Synthesis is the final evolution of life

Vorcha: Then Collectors make us strong!

Child: But we need each other to make it happen.

Vorcha: You've scratched my back, now I'll scratch yours!



Vorcha: Diplomatic Immunittttyyyyyyyy!!!

Officialy Laughed my Ass Off.



Also, when I peaked at it at first, I thought it was a convo between Chris and a Vorcha.

[Arturia Pendragon]

About the only thing I can think of is that the success of the N7 forces within the multiplayer arena instills the scientists, engineers, and technicians working on the space flashlight with hope and inspiration, enhancing the effectiveness of the MacGuffin in the process.

Modifié par Arturia Pendragon, 14 juin 2012 - 09:48 .

[HellishFiend]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

About the only thing I can think of is that the success of the N7 forces within the multiplayer arena instills the scientists, engineers, and technicians working on the space flashlight with hope and inspiration, enhancing the effectiveness of the MacGuffin in the process.

So basically: "Allied forces use Vorcha Sentinel! It's Super Effective!"? If that's the case, conventional victory should be possible. <_< Just gather enough Vorcha and the rest of the Allied forces will defeat the Reapers with the sheer force of inspiration.

[Arturia Pendragon]

HellishFiend wrote...

So basically: "Allied forces use Vorcha Sentinel! It's Super Effective!"? If that's the case, conventional victory should be possible. <_< Just gather enough Vorcha and the rest of the Allied forces will defeat the Reapers with the sheer force of inspiration.

Sometimes victory requires nothing more than a little hope, especially in fiction. A single soldier performing acts beyond those expected of him or her can inspire entire nations to victory; even if that soldier is a Vorcha.

[Asharad Hett]

@Bill Casey

OMG, when Joker lands on Paradise planet, he'll have a Vorcha voice!

Modifié par Asharad Hett, 14 juin 2012 - 10:48 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Bill Casey wrote...

Child: Wake up.

Vorcha: Leave human! Tell Captain Gavorn we not kill anyone today!

Child: I am the Catalyst.

Vorcha: We not trust you! Tell Gavorn we know his tricks! We not kill anyone today!

Child: The created will always rebel against the creator. But we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle. We harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone. Just as we left your people alive the last time we were here. We helped them ascend so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form.

Vorcha: Go away! Talk too much! Gavorn's thugs get no more! We leave!

Child: No you can't. Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics.

Vorcha: You no come here! We shut down machines! Break fans!

Child: The Crucible changed me. Created new possibilities. But I can't make them happen.

Vorcha: No more talk! We know Gavorn’s tricks! We leave!

Child: I know you've thought about destroying us.

Vorcha: We kill you first!

Child: You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth.

Vorcha: Everyone choke and die!

Child: Or do you think you can control us?

Vorcha: I may be ambitious, but I'm not crazy.

Child: There is another solution. Synthesis. Add you energy to the Crucible's everything you are will be absorbed and then sent out. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework, a new dna.

Vorcha: Aria T’Loak even more powerful than I thought! Her instructions for boarding Citadel undetected were one thing, now this!

Child: Synthesis is the final evolution of life

Vorcha: Then Collectors make us strong!

Child: But we need each other to make it happen.

Vorcha: You've scratched my back, now I'll scratch yours!



Vorcha: Diplomatic Immunittttyyyyyyyy!!!

Here take all the internets, that is possibly the best thing I've ever seen.

[HellishFiend]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

So basically: "Allied forces use Vorcha Sentinel! It's Super Effective!"? If that's the case, conventional victory should be possible. <_< Just gather enough Vorcha and the rest of the Allied forces will defeat the Reapers with the sheer force of inspiration.

Sometimes victory requires nothing more than a little hope, especially in fiction. A single soldier performing acts beyond those expected of him or her can inspire entire nations to victory; even if that soldier is a Vorcha.

That still requires drawing radically unfounded conclusions with little to no supporting evidence within the context of the ME universe. It's a forced assumption made only due to the lack of a rational explanation that can be backed up by events from the story. 

I know you're trying to think of something that could work, and I dont fault you for that. I just think there is no possible explanation that doesnt require some extreme overreaching. 

[Lord Goose]

You don't actually get specific Vorcha-related war assets, besides Blood Pack. Promotion gives N7 operatives war assets.

Probably it goes like this: N7 veterans are better fighters than regular soldiers, so they require less resources to complete same missions. That means more resources to build the Crucible/and or weaken the Reapers.

[Merchant2006]

RARRRRRH. WE NOT CARE ABOUT SYNTHESIS. WE SHUT DOWN ENDINGS, BREAK FANBASE. THEN PROMOTING MAKE US STRONG. EVERYONE SPECULATE AND DIE.

Modifié par Merchant2006, 14 juin 2012 - 11:02 .

[Jamie9]

Adding ground forces means Hammer is larger. The larger a threat Hammer poses, the more Reapers are diverted from Sword Fleet and the Crucible. Crucible less damaged = Crucible works better.

[ShaneP]

The work you do during the course of multiplayer is to essentially gain your teams experience "in the field" so to speak, and when they reach level 20 the entire class is promoted as an N7 special ops team to fight in the front line war against the reapers, boosting your EMS. As far as I am aware the vorcha or the Sentinel class in general aren't worth any more EMS than any of the other classes.

[Quyk Sylvyr]

Oh for *&$#'s sake. I hate the ending but promoting soldiers to give a higher EMS rating isn't horrible in itself. What do multiplayer missions do? They are usually designed to defend resources, factories, and scout information. All of these things would make the war effort easier and could in fact contribute to a better build crucible. (It may look the same but I bet more available resources could mean the interior is better built.) It's sort of like Shepard doing the Arrival mission means the N7 operatives aren't killed doing the Arrival mission. . . As far as why synthesis is only available with higher EMS? Obviously it's mostly a game mechanic but you could make a decent argument that it takes a better built catalyst and the guardian has more faith in a "smarter" Shepard.

(Note: the fact that you HAVE to play Multiplayer to get the best ending is another story entirely and pisses me off. . . and probably pisses off the other people playing multiplayer even more since they then have to play with me.)

[Arturia Pendragon]

HellishFiend wrote...

That still requires drawing radically unfounded conclusions with little to no supporting evidence within the context of the ME universe. It's a forced assumption made only due to the lack of a rational explanation that can be backed up by events from the story. 

I know you're trying to think of something that could work, and I dont fault you for that. I just think there is no possible explanation that doesnt require some extreme overreaching. 

Not so much unfounded or overreaching as using common themes and tropes found in other fictional war stories. If you limit yourself to solely the narrative presented in Mass Effect 3 you will not find an adequate answer.