140 réponses à ce sujet

[HellishFiend]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

That still requires drawing radically unfounded conclusions with little to no supporting evidence within the context of the ME universe. It's a forced assumption made only due to the lack of a rational explanation that can be backed up by events from the story. 

I know you're trying to think of something that could work, and I dont fault you for that. I just think there is no possible explanation that doesnt require some extreme overreaching. 

Not so much unfounded or overreaching as using common themes and tropes found in other fictional war stories. If you limit yourself to solely the narrative presented in Mass Effect 3 you will not find an adequate answer.

Exactly, and I dont think we should have to step outside the narrative in order to find the answer we're looking for, in this case. 

[HellishFiend]

Jamie9 wrote...

Adding ground forces means Hammer is larger. The larger a threat Hammer poses, the more Reapers are diverted from Sword Fleet and the Crucible. Crucible less damaged = Crucible works better.

Why then does the entirety of London play out exactly the same way? Why does the Crucible show no signs of damage when it docks? Why would it affect the Catalyst's demeanor?

[Jamie9]

HellishFiend wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

Adding ground forces means Hammer is larger. The larger a threat Hammer poses, the more Reapers are diverted from Sword Fleet and the Crucible. Crucible less damaged = Crucible works better.

Why then does the entirety of London play out exactly the same way? Why does the Crucible show no signs of damage when it docks? Why would it affect the Catalyst's demeanor?

There are "good" and "bad" variations of Sword and Hammer for London. So it does make some difference. More difference than the Battle of the Citadel (ME1).

The Catalyst may be very disappointed in how Shepard did? Or perhaps more panicked at how well the Reapers were doing. Guessing the Catalyst's motivations is very difficult given how little time we spent with him.

The Crucible is never damaged. This one I can't answer in-story.

[Lord Goose]

Exactly, and I dont think we should have to step outside the
narrative in order to find the answer we're looking for, in
this case.

Well, without stepping out of narrative, how could you explain geth (speaking normal language, instead of gethspeak, and bleeding when he is hurt), quarian, krogan and Salarian fighting geth on Thessia? Especially, if krogans are returned to Tuchanka, and geth or quarians are all dead.

Clearly, multiplayer War Assets isn't supposed to be taken literally.

[Jonata]

Vorcha ARE geniuses. They know all of Gavorn's tricks.

[wantedman dan]

It's a very stupid game mechanic that is a serious oversight.

Taboo-XX wrote...

What the hell?

MP is there only to help you get more War Assets. I have over two thousand right now because of it. The War Assets can be anywhere in the Galaxy.

It has nothing to do with the Crucible all the time. Do you really think they're going to use the Destiny Ascension on the surface of the planet?

Are you serious?

Point missed.

[Arturia Pendragon]

I'm not a writer; take it or leave it.

Jason, a retired engineer, sits in front of his television on his personal starship. Upon hearing rumors of the destruction of the batarian homeworld and fully believing Commander Shepard's claims about an imminent reaper attack, he decided he would just take what he could and run, to hell with the world. Weeks had passed since the reapers landed on Earth and while Jason had lost everything he once held dear, he was still alive. He sighs as he clicks his remote, changing the station from this week's Glam to the news.

On this episode of Profiles in Courage, we present Bob the vorcha.

Bob spent most of his youth on the streets, scrounging what little he could to survive. However, when the call came for volunteers to fight the Reaper invasion, Bob wasted no time enlisting. Even though he wasn't human, turian, or krogan, Bob felt it was his duty to fight for those that couldn't themselves.

Bob would eventually find himself stranded at Firebase White with three teammates, surrounded by hundreds of reaper forces. Despite the overwhelming odds, Bob and his teammates managed to hold them off until they could be retrieved, killing dozens of enemies, retrieving sensitive enemy intel, and eliminating high ranking targets. For his heroic deeds, Bob was promoted and now leads a squad of his own soldiers, continuing to push back the reapers at every turn. With soldiers like Bob, we still have a chance of victory.

For more Profiles in Courage, visit the Alliance on the Extranet. Keyword “courage”.

Upon the conclusion of the newscast, Jason silently sets his remote down. He immediately regrets his decisions. If a vorcha is willing to fight and die for humans, then what the heck is he doing running away? Jason stands and walks to his computer, opening his email and contacting the few friends he has left. He would do whatever he could to help.

War Asset Gained +75 points

Modifié par Arturia Pendragon, 15 juin 2012 - 12:15 .

[HellishFiend]

Lord Goose wrote...

Exactly, and I dont think we should have to step outside the
narrative in order to find the answer we're looking for, in
this case.

Well, without stepping out of narrative, how could you explain geth (speaking normal language, instead of gethspeak, and bleeding when he is hurt), quarian, krogan and Salarian fighting geth on Thessia? Especially, if krogans are returned to Tuchanka, and geth or quarians are all dead.

Clearly, multiplayer War Assets isn't supposed to be taken literally.

So youre trying to justify stepping outside of the narrative by..... stepping out of the narrative? Not sure I understand what point youre trying to prove, much less the manner in which you're trying to prove it. 

Stay inside the story if you want to try to come up with an answer for my question. For clarification, the "events" that take place in multiplayer are outside of the narrative for the most part. But once they get "promoted" and converted to a war asset, they are inside the story/narrative. So if all you're going to do is say its an unreasonable question, or try to change the parameters of the question, all youre doing is giving my topic free bumps. Which is fine, by the way. 

[HellishFiend]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

I'm not a writer; take it or leave it.

Jason, a retired engineer, sits in front of his television on his personal starship. Upon hearing rumors of the destruction of the batarian homeworld and fully believing Commander Shepard's claims about an imminent reaper attack, he decided he would just take what he could and run, to hell with the world. Weeks had passed since the reapers landed on Earth and while Jason had lost everything he once held dear, he was still alive. He sighs as he clicks his remote, changing the station from this week's Glam to the news.

On this episode of Profiles in Courage, we present Bob the vorcha.

Bob spent most of his youth on the streets, scrounging what little he could to survive. However, when the call came for volunteers to fight the Reaper invasion, Bob wasted no time enlisting. Even though he wasn't human, turian, or krogan, Bob felt it was his duty to fight for those that couldn't themselves.

Bob would eventually find himself stranded at Firebase White with three teammates, surrounded by hundreds of reaper forces. Despite the overwhelming odds, Bob and his teammates managed to hold them off until they could be retrieved, killing dozens of enemies. For his heroic deeds, Bob was promoted and now leads a squad of his own soldiers, continuing to push back the reapers at every turn. With soldiers like Bob, we still have a chance of victory.

For more Profiles in Courage, visit the Alliance on the Extranet. Keyword “courage”.

Upon the conclusion of the newscast, Jason silently sets his remote down. He immediately regrets his decisions. If a vorcha is willing to fight and die for humans, then what the heck is he doing running away? Jason stands and walks to his computer, opening his email and contacting the few friends he has left. He would do whatever he could to help.

War Asset Gained +75 points

That's probably the best attempt at a justification that I've seen in the thread so far, thanks. 

Is it a reasonable conclusion complete with narrative-based justification for how those war assets are handled? I'm not so sure. I suppose it's up to the individual to decide. I'm going to have to go with No, though, on the grounds that we are given no indication that anything like that is taking place. If that were meant to be the assumption, they could have easily worked it into the description of the n7 assets at the war terminal. Or a line from Admiral Hacket, a minor cutscene, an email.. anything. 

But like I said, best explanation so far. 

[Jamie9]

HellishFiend wrote...

So youre trying to justify stepping outside of the narrative by..... stepping out of the narrative? Not sure I understand what point youre trying to prove, much less the manner in which you're trying to prove it. 

Stay inside the story if you want to try to come up with an answer for my question. For clarification, the "events" that take place in multiplayer are outside of the narrative for the most part. But once they get "promoted" and converted to a war asset, they are inside the story/narrative. So if all you're going to do is say its an unreasonable question, or try to change the parameters of the question, all youre doing is giving my topic free bumps. Which is fine, by the way. 

Staying inside the narrative, you are given N7 Special Forces. Not specifically Vorcha. That's in MP, which is outside the narrative. N7 Special Forces could do a myriad of things to improve the Crucible. Shepard is N7 after all.

[o Ventus]

Are you complaining about how the promoted MP characters affect war assets?

[Sousabird]

Taboo-XX wrote...

What the hell?

MP is there only to help you get more War Assets. I have over two thousand right now because of it. The War Assets can be anywhere in the Galaxy.

It has nothing to do with the Crucible all the time. Do you really think they're going to use the Destiny Ascension on the surface of the planet?

Are you serious?

Really? Darn I wanted to see the flagship kamikaze into harbinger

[wantedman dan]

o Ventus wrote...

Are you complaining about how the promoted MP characters affect war assets?

Specifically the Crucible's firing abilities.

[Deltakarma]

Merchant2006 wrote...



RARRRRRH. WE NOT CARE ABOUT SYNTHESIS. WE SHUT DOWN ENDINGS, BREAK FANBASE. THEN PROMOTING MAKE US STRONG. EVERYONE SPECULATE AND DIE.

So much win in this thread, its unbearable.

[o Ventus]

wantedman dan wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Are you complaining about how the promoted MP characters affect war assets?

Specifically the Crucible's firing abilities.

Apart from "they don't", all I can say it "What a stupid, pointless complaint".

[HellishFiend]

o Ventus wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Are you complaining about how the promoted MP characters affect war assets?

Specifically the Crucible's firing abilities.

Apart from "they don't", all I can say it "What a stupid, pointless complaint".

Thanks for furthering my point. 

[wantedman dan]

o Ventus wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Are you complaining about how the promoted MP characters affect war assets?

Specifically the Crucible's firing abilities.

"they don't"

Thanks for making the OP's point.

[Iscariot125]

HellishFiend wrote...
Does anyone have a non-IT or non-Lazy/Stupid explanation for this?

Essencially, EMS is the culmination of all assets in building the Cruicible and deploying it. It's split into major parts

1. Your scientists. These guys sit around and build the thing. The number of scientists determines how well designed and built the Crucible is. Enough said.

2. Ships. These guys fly in and fight the reapers while also redshirting for the cruicible. It's obvious that someone needs to take the fire for the device, since the Reapers know what it does (they moved the Citadel because of it), and because if you wait around long enough on the God child section, you get a Crit Mission Fail with the caption "The Cruicible has been destroyed." The number of ships determines how much or little damage the crucible takes before it reaches the docking point.

3. Soldiers. You got your rank and file, who are basically spec ops squads or cannon fodder, and you got your MP soldiers, who are like Mini-Shepards. Both will take down Reaper ground forces, forcing the Reapers to break off and send reinforcements, taking the heat off the Crucible.

That's about all I can think of in terms of categories. And this isn't me trying to wildly make sense of the system. This is what I believed was the case when I saw the EMS system for the first time.

[wantedman dan]

Iscariot125 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...
Does anyone have a non-IT or non-Lazy/Stupid explanation for this?

Essencially, EMS is the culmination of all assets in building the Cruicible and deploying it. It's split into major parts

1. Your scientists. These guys sit around and build the thing. The number of scientists determines how well designed and built the Crucible is. Enough said.

2. Ships. These guys fly in and fight the reapers while also redshirting for the cruicible. It's obvious that someone needs to take the fire for the device, since the Reapers know what it does (they moved the Citadel because of it), and because if you wait around long enough on the God child section, you get a Crit Mission Fail with the caption "The Cruicible has been destroyed." The number of ships determines how much or little damage the crucible takes before it reaches the docking point.

3. Soldiers. You got your rank and file, who are basically spec ops squads or cannon fodder, and you got your MP soldiers, who are like Mini-Shepards. Both will take down Reaper ground forces, forcing the Reapers to break off and send reinforcements, taking the heat off the Crucible.

That's about all I can think of in terms of categories. And this isn't me trying to wildly make sense of the system. This is what I believed was the case when I saw the EMS system for the first time.

So basically I can f*ck up the rest of the story, get the minimum amount of help for the Crucible, and promote a bunch of Vorcha as my soldiers, and I am entitled to the same ending?

[Iscariot125]

wantedman dan wrote...

Iscariot125 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...
Does anyone have a non-IT or non-Lazy/Stupid explanation for this?

Essencially, EMS is the culmination of all assets in building the Cruicible and deploying it. It's split into major parts

1. Your scientists. These guys sit around and build the thing. The number of scientists determines how well designed and built the Crucible is. Enough said.

2. Ships. These guys fly in and fight the reapers while also redshirting for the cruicible. It's obvious that someone needs to take the fire for the device, since the Reapers know what it does (they moved the Citadel because of it), and because if you wait around long enough on the God child section, you get a Crit Mission Fail with the caption "The Cruicible has been destroyed." The number of ships determines how much or little damage the crucible takes before it reaches the docking point.

3. Soldiers. You got your rank and file, who are basically spec ops squads or cannon fodder, and you got your MP soldiers, who are like Mini-Shepards. Both will take down Reaper ground forces, forcing the Reapers to break off and send reinforcements, taking the heat off the Crucible.

That's about all I can think of in terms of categories. And this isn't me trying to wildly make sense of the system. This is what I believed was the case when I saw the EMS system for the first time.

So basically I can f*ck up the rest of the story, get the minimum amount of help for the Crucible, and promote a bunch of Vorcha as my soldiers, and I am entitled to the same ending?

Gamewise, yes. There's always a way to break a system. But unless you're willing to put in hundreds of game hours to bet your EMS up high enough, you're gonna need to find some other crap.
Honestly, it makes a minimal amount of sense in context with a run whose EMS is almost entirely aquired by MP. You've got an army of mini-sheps. Reaper ground forces aren't able to do **** against them. So the Reapers have to pull a Harbinger and go down there to deal with the soldiers themselves, taking the heat off the crucible.

[wantedman dan]

Iscariot125 wrote...

Gamewise, yes. There's always a way to break a system. But unless you're willing to put in hundreds of game hours to bet your EMS up high enough, you're gonna need to find some other crap.
Honestly, it makes a minimal amount of sense in context with a run whose EMS is almost entirely aquired by MP. You've got an army of mini-sheps. Reaper ground forces aren't able to do **** against them. So the Reapers have to pull a Harbinger and go down there to deal with the soldiers themselves, taking the heat off the crucible.

Well of course, literally, I could break the system easily.

But I'm with the OP--it makes no sense. I would argue that if the Reapers truly felt threatened--and the Crucible wasn't simply some Reaper concoction--they would simply decimate Shield and destroy it.

[Iscariot125]

wantedman dan wrote...

Iscariot125 wrote...

Gamewise, yes. There's always a way to break a system. But unless you're willing to put in hundreds of game hours to bet your EMS up high enough, you're gonna need to find some other crap.
Honestly, it makes a minimal amount of sense in context with a run whose EMS is almost entirely aquired by MP. You've got an army of mini-sheps. Reaper ground forces aren't able to do **** against them. So the Reapers have to pull a Harbinger and go down there to deal with the soldiers themselves, taking the heat off the crucible.

Well of course, literally, I could break the system easily.

But I'm with the OP--it makes no sense. I would argue that if the Reapers truly felt threatened--and the Crucible wasn't simply some Reaper concoction--they would simply decimate Shield and destroy it.

But that's assuming that the Reapers are all as powerful as they think themselves as. As we see, some reapers were being DESTROYED in the Take Back Earth scene with the ships entering the system. For all we know, they WERE trying to push their way through, but from Palaven, they know a two front battle can be bad.
Plus, the reapers are just damn arrogant. They often think they got things under control when they don;t.

[wantedman dan]

Iscariot125 wrote...

But that's assuming that the Reapers are all as powerful as they think themselves as. As we see, some reapers were being DESTROYED in the Take Back Earth scene with the ships entering the system. For all we know, they WERE trying to push their way through, but from Palaven, they know a two front battle can be bad.
Plus, the reapers are just damn arrogant. They often think they got things under control when they don;t.

I agree--there are several confounding variables.

[dklancer02]

Throwing more Vorcha out into the open battlefield frees up more actual soldiers to assist in gathering the materials required to create the crucible. Alternatively, you can say that the data and items you recover from all of those N7 Ops in multiplayer recovered valuable data for the crucible and the increase in war assets reflects that.

[shepdog77]

 
THEY KNEW HIS TRICKS.  THEY LEFT.