233 réponses à ce sujet

[RyanSoup]

We should all know by now what Indoctrination Theory is, but for those of you who don't yet, the theory is that at the end of Priority: Earth, after Shepard is hit by a reaper's laser, Sheperd becomes indoctrinated and the whole ending is just a hallucination.

Here's the problem with that:  we need to look at the amount of time that Shepard's actually spent around reapers.  It really isn't much compared to Saren or The Illusive Man.  Saren, for example, traversed the galaxy inside of Sovreign.  The Illusive Man had the human reaper larva's heart/brain in the center of his main base for at least a few months.  In contrast, Shepard often only spends a few hours near a reaper at any given time.   Now, despite Sovreign's proximity on Vermire in ME1, Vigil later says that he, "does not detect the taint of indoctrination" on Shepard.  

So, with that established, the question now is "how would Shepard have become indoctrinated that much in such a short amount of time, while still retaining much of his sanity?"  Admittedly his actions at the end are a little strange, but yours would be too if you were bleeding out that exorbitantly.  That said, I do understand that some fans would like to believe that there

While I concede that both Saren and The Illusive man had extensive implantation done, this only occurred after the indoctrination had begun working.  Also worth noting was Matriarch Benezia's ability to retain some control after becoming severely fatigued.  I'd love to hear what others think, however.

[RyanSoup]

On a side-note, please excuse my extreme disorganization

[Lord Goose]

You can also say, that Prothean VI from the AthameTemple didn't noticed indoctrination before Kai Leng showed up.

[KiwiQuiche]

Eh, ITers go to quite extreme lengths to ignore the obvious answer to the end; Crappy writing.
Honestly, have they played ME3? ME2? DA2? Plotholes. Plotholes EVERYWHERE. It's not just limited to ME3's end.

Though I can understand wanting to believe that Bioware didn't screw up as epiccally as they did.

[Iecerint]

I've heard that the most obvious instance is in the Arrival DLC, which I have not played.

Another way to look at the "small exposures" issue is that it explains why Shepard has lasted a long time (4 years?) without being indoctrinated.

TIM was indoctrinated before the end of ME2 as I understand it, though the indoctrination was slow, so he maintained some control over his mind.

[KingZayd]

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

Modifié par KingZayd, 14 juin 2012 - 10:37 .

[KiwiQuiche]

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

This isn't canon. If you don't play the DLC, you never get this mission and never encounter Object Rho. So no, it cannot be used as a canon source of Indocrination, as for many it never happened.

[SubAstris]

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

So the Reapers' priority is death for Shepard, not indoctrination of him?

[Iecerint]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

ME2? DA2? Plotholes. 

Which plotholes are you referring to?  DA2 suffers from very poor pacing, but I can't think of plotholes.  ME2 seems to hold together pretty well AFAICT -- the only unjustified element I can think of is the Human Reaper (because of the DE ending change), but that's less a plothole than an unresolved issue that ME3 doesn't address.

[The h0bb1t]

It think, to support it, that he's been a main target of the reapers ever since he was the reason Sovereign got killed and their return was delayed.
So i guess the indoctrination effect took really long, but has ever been so subtle since he spoke with Sovereign.

In Arrival he was imprisoned for a (few?) day(s), surrounded by a Reaper artifact and indoctrinated humans.
He spoke with Harbringer. Subtle ultrasounds could be an extra reason.
And for indoctrination to take effect, he wouldn't even need to be in the presence of a Reaper, as long as he doesn't realize he isn't being indoctrinated, he won't resist.

They only planted a seed in his mind, and it grew naturally.

[KingZayd]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

This isn't canon. If you don't play the DLC, you never get this mission and never encounter Object Rho. So no, it cannot be used as a canon source of Indocrination, as for many it never happened.

Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

[Montana]

Lord Goose wrote...

You can also say, that Prothean VI from the AthameTemple didn't noticed indoctrination before Kai Leng showed up.

Maybe it only detects fully indoctrinated people and not people undergoing the process?

[KingZayd]

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

So the Reapers' priority is death for Shepard, not indoctrination of him?

At this point in time? yes. Harby tried to indoctrinate Shepard earlier, but unfortunately for poor Harby, Shepard's still fighting the Reapers. Stopping anyone from entering the Citadel is a priority. More important than having a Shepard toy.

Modifié par KingZayd, 14 juin 2012 - 10:48 .

[KiwiQuiche]

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

This isn't canon. If you don't play the DLC, you never get this mission and never encounter Object Rho. So no, it cannot be used as a canon source of Indocrination, as for many it never happened.

Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

[KingZayd]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

This isn't canon. If you don't play the DLC, you never get this mission and never encounter Object Rho. So no, it cannot be used as a canon source of Indocrination, as for many it never happened.

Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

Modifié par KingZayd, 14 juin 2012 - 10:47 .

[SubAstris]

Iecerint wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

ME2? DA2? Plotholes. 

Which plotholes are you referring to?  DA2 suffers from very poor pacing, but I can't think of plotholes.  ME2 seems to hold together pretty well AFAICT -- the only unjustified element I can think of is the Human Reaper (because of the DE ending change), but that's less a plothole than an unresolved issue that ME3 doesn't address.

Probably referring to TIM's plan

[Facemelter91]

Just going to throw this out there... for all we know just being in relative proximity of Harbinger could send you over the edge. Blast sent Shepard into a unconscious state, a weakened mental state allowing Harbinger to bypass Shepards un-godly will and have a go at indoctrinating him.

Yea, speculation and all that jazz, furthermore an FYI to avoid flames or something, I like the idea of IT, if its true great. If its not, well hopefully they fix it in their own way, not going to lose sleep over it either way.

[SubAstris]

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

So the Reapers' priority is death for Shepard, not indoctrination of him?

At this point in time? yes. Harby tried to indoctrinate Shepard earlier, but unfortunately for poor Harby, Shepard's still fighting the Reapers. Stopping anyone from entering the Citadel is a priority. More important than having a Shepard toy.

So they try to indoctrinate him, give up, try and kill him instead, fail, and then try indoctrination again? Seems awfully convaluted, you would expect the Reapers to stick to their guns. Why not try and indoctrinate him just before they get to the beam? Like at shuttle crash

[thefallen2far]

Shepard died and was rebuilt with technology from cerberus, who based most of their technoogy off Reaper technology, hence the miracules recovery from death.

And, Arrival is cannon. It says why he wasn't in the military anymore. If it wasn't cannon, there wouldn't have been a court martial.

[D24O]

Let the people have their speculation. That was the whole point of the ending anyway.

[RyanSoup]

Iecerint wrote...

I've heard that the most obvious instance is in the Arrival DLC, which I have not played.

Another way to look at the "small exposures" issue is that it explains why Shepard has lasted a long time (4 years?) without being indoctrinated.

TIM was indoctrinated before the end of ME2 as I understand it, though the indoctrination was slow, so he maintained some control over his mind.

It could be that he spent some time on that "derelict reaper."

[KingZayd]

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

So the Reapers' priority is death for Shepard, not indoctrination of him?

At this point in time? yes. Harby tried to indoctrinate Shepard earlier, but unfortunately for poor Harby, Shepard's still fighting the Reapers. Stopping anyone from entering the Citadel is a priority. More important than having a Shepard toy.

So they try to indoctrinate him, give up, try and kill him instead, fail, and then try indoctrination again? Seems awfully convaluted, you would expect the Reapers to stick to their guns. Why not try and indoctrinate him just before they get to the beam? Like at shuttle crash

No. I think the indoctrination works passively. The reapers have no knowledge of Shiala, or the Cerberus troops TIM had implanted months before the Reapers' entrance into the galaxy. Yet, they hear the voices. Seems to me that the process happens automatically, and over time changes you and makes you find a reason to first stop trying to destroy the reapers (or see them as problem) and eventually make you want to help them. Just the same way, Harbinger has to reason to suspect Shepard is alive, but the indoctrination in his mind can worsen.

[KiwiQuiche]

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

This isn't canon. If you don't play the DLC, you never get this mission and never encounter Object Rho. So no, it cannot be used as a canon source of Indocrination, as for many it never happened.

Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

...seriously? <_<

[Bill Casey]

SubAstris wrote...

Why not try and indoctrinate him just before they get to the beam? Like at shuttle crash

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's where it starts...

[RyanSoup]

D24O wrote...

Let the people have their speculation. That was the whole point of the ending anyway.

You're implying that it's open-ended
If it really was meant to be, then it was poorly executed
You're clearly missing the issue here.  I understand that people will speculate, but there's so much speculation to be had that it's almost as if there were no ending.  Even the previous titles had endings that wrapped things up.  This one did not