233 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

RyanSoup wrote...

Iecerint wrote...

I've heard that the most obvious instance is in the Arrival DLC, which I have not played.

Another way to look at the "small exposures" issue is that it explains why Shepard has lasted a long time (4 years?) without being indoctrinated.

TIM was indoctrinated before the end of ME2 as I understand it, though the indoctrination was slow, so he maintained some control over his mind.

It could be that he spent some time on that "derelict reaper."

No it seems he was initially indoctrinated on Shanxi during the Contact Wars. One of those Reaper artifacts activated and he was affected. His friend, Ben was huskified, and Desolas (Saren's brother) also ended up indoctrinated.

TIM pretty much isolated himself in that office of his.. perhaps to avoid coming in direct contact with any of these things. It'd be cool if the cigarettes turned out to be a coping mechanism for the voices.

Modifié par KingZayd, 14 juin 2012 - 10:57 .

[Dwailing]

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

This isn't canon. If you don't play the DLC, you never get this mission and never encounter Object Rho. So no, it cannot be used as a canon source of Indocrination, as for many it never happened.

Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

Actually, Shepard destroying the relay IS CANON.  Mass Effect: Conviction CONFIRMS this.  And Conviction was a mini-comic written by, guess who, MAC WALTERS.  You know, LEAD FRAKKING WRITER of ME3.  So, I'm pretty sure Arrival IS considered canon.

Modifié par Dwailing, 14 juin 2012 - 10:59 .

[J-Chad52]

the Indoctrination Theory doesn't state that Shep was actually indoctrinated it says that it was the final "attempt" by the reapers to indoctrinate him... now if you choose the paragon option you "beat" the indoctrination and wake up back on earth.

[KingZayd]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

This isn't canon. If you don't play the DLC, you never get this mission and never encounter Object Rho. So no, it cannot be used as a canon source of Indocrination, as for many it never happened.

Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

...seriously? <_<

Are you suggesting that Shepard not doing Arrival is somehow more valid than Shepard doing Arrival?

If not, why are the Shepards who had Object Rho activate on them, NOT indoctrinated, unlike everyone else?

[RyanSoup]

Bill Casey wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Why not try and indoctrinate him just before they get to the beam? Like at shuttle crash

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's where it starts...

But how?  They're way too far from any actual reaper ships until they get to Harbinger.  Plus, that's still too rapid

[KingZayd]

Dwailing wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

This isn't canon. If you don't play the DLC, you never get this mission and never encounter Object Rho. So no, it cannot be used as a canon source of Indocrination, as for many it never happened.

Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

Actually, Shepard destroying the relay IS CANON.  Mass Effect: Conviction CONFIRMS this.  And Conviction was a mini-comic written by, guess who, MAC WALTERS.  You know, LEAD FRAKKING WRITER of ME3.  So, I'm pretty sure Arrival IS considered canon.

I heard this too, although i haven't read that one. My point was that Arrival is AT THE VERY LEAST just as canon as "not Arrival"

[Aaleel]

Dwailing wrote...

Actually, Shepard destroying the relay IS CANON.  Mass Effect: Conviction CONFIRMS this.  And Conviction was a mini-comic written by, guess who, MAC WALTERS.  You know, LEAD FRAKKING WRITER of ME3.  So, I'm pretty sure Arrival IS considered canon.

No it's not.  The relay being destroyed is canon.  In the game if you didn't do Arrival it says that Hackett sent in space commandos to do the deed and they all died.

Modifié par Aaleel, 14 juin 2012 - 11:03 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Dwailing wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

This isn't canon. If you don't play the DLC, you never get this mission and never encounter Object Rho. So no, it cannot be used as a canon source of Indocrination, as for many it never happened.

Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

Actually, Shepard destroying the relay IS CANON.  Mass Effect: Conviction CONFIRMS this.  And Conviction was a mini-comic written by, guess who, MAC WALTERS.  You know, LEAD FRAKKING WRITER of ME3.  So, I'm pretty sure Arrival IS considered canon.

Try playing ME3 and you'll see you lose War Assets as Hackett sends Marines to deal with that relay. So NO it is not.

[Dwailing]

KingZayd wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

This isn't canon. If you don't play the DLC, you never get this mission and never encounter Object Rho. So no, it cannot be used as a canon source of Indocrination, as for many it never happened.

Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

Actually, Shepard destroying the relay IS CANON.  Mass Effect: Conviction CONFIRMS this.  And Conviction was a mini-comic written by, guess who, MAC WALTERS.  You know, LEAD FRAKKING WRITER of ME3.  So, I'm pretty sure Arrival IS considered canon.

I heard this too, although i haven't read that one. My point was that Arrival is AT THE VERY LEAST just as canon as "not Arrival"

*Anderson voice* Exactly.  Also, I should point out that what this means is that Mac wrote the ending ASSUMING that Shep was exposed to a Reaper artifact (Object Rho) for two days.  He'll probably adapt the EC based on whether you played Arrival or not, but he assumed that when you played the ending originally, you had played Arrival.

[KiwiQuiche]

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

...seriously? <_<

Are you suggesting that Shepard not doing Arrival is somehow more valid than Shepard doing Arrival?

If not, why are the Shepards who had Object Rho activate on them, NOT indoctrinated, unlike everyone else?

Yes, since she never gets exposed to Object Rho. So it CANNOT BE USED AS A CANON SOURCE AS IT DOESN'T HAPPEN FOR SOME SHEPARDS.

Jesus Christ...How many times do I have to repeat myself to you ITers?

[Lord Goose]

Maybe it only detects fully indoctrinated people and not
people undergoing the process?

Kai Leng was still in his ''I'm doing it for humanity'' phase during his final encounter with Shepard.

And, frankly, I don't remember any instance of somebody being ''not fully indoctrinated''.

[Dwailing]

I'm going to post a link to a YouTube video of Mass Effect: Conviction (I know, a YouTube video of a comic. Bear with me, please.). Look in the very. First. Panel. And tell me what you see.

[KingZayd]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

...seriously? <_<

Are you suggesting that Shepard not doing Arrival is somehow more valid than Shepard doing Arrival?

If not, why are the Shepards who had Object Rho activate on them, NOT indoctrinated, unlike everyone else?

Yes, since she never gets exposed to Object Rho. So it CANNOT BE USED AS A CANON SOURCE AS IT DOESN'T HAPPEN FOR SOME SHEPARDS.

Jesus Christ...How many times do I have to repeat myself to you ITers?

I'm asking you about the ones that did get activated on by Object Rho. WHY AREN'T THEY INDOCTRINATED? (see i can all caps too!)

Modifié par KingZayd, 14 juin 2012 - 11:08 .

[BatmanTurian]

Lord Goose wrote...

Maybe it only detects fully indoctrinated people and not
people undergoing the process?

Kai Leng was still in his ''I'm doing it for humanity'' phase during his final encounter with Shepard.

And, frankly, I don't remember any instance of somebody being ''not fully indoctrinated''.

Wrong, Kai Leng had implants already. This is old news.

[Aaleel]

Dwailing wrote...

I'm going to post a link to a YouTube video of Mass Effect: Conviction (I know, a YouTube video of a comic. Bear with me, please.). Look in the very. First. Panel. And tell me what you see.

SO you're saying that a comic that someone may not have even read overrites something they were told in the actual game.  In the actual game if you didn't do arrival Shepard was not the one that destroyed the relay, commandos did.

[RyanSoup]

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

So the Reapers' priority is death for Shepard, not indoctrination of him?

If you'll remember, Benezia was in a weakened state before she died and that actually allowed her to RESIST indoctrination.  The reapers at this point are well on their way to wiping everyone out anyway.  Why would they need to indoctrinate Shepard.

[Lord Goose]

WHY
AREN'T THEY INDOCTRINATED?

We don't know if they're indoctrinated or not. And proving negative is logically impossible.

[KiwiQuiche]

Dwailing wrote...

I'm going to post a link to a YouTube video of Mass Effect: Conviction (I know, a YouTube video of a comic. Bear with me, please.). Look in the very. First. Panel. And tell me what you see.

Try playing Mass Effect 3 and looking at your War assets. In the Alliance one of 103rd Marine Division, you should see something like this;

"Admiral Hackett dispatched marines to the planet Aratoht to rescue a deep cover agent, Dr. Amanda Kenson.
The teams were killed in an explosion that wiped out both the colony
and the system's relay. The Alliance spent weeks piecing together
scattered radio transmissions, learning that the marines felt they had
no choice but to send an asteroid into the relay to prevent invasion by
the Reapers. While it bought the Alliance some time, the men and women
lost on the mission were a severe blow to the 103rd Marine Corps.
"

[Erield]

Dwailing wrote...

*Anderson voice* Exactly.  Also, I should point out that what this means is that Mac wrote the ending ASSUMING that Shep was exposed to a Reaper artifact (Object Rho) for two days.  He'll probably adapt the EC based on whether you played Arrival or not, but he assumed that when you played the ending originally, you had played Arrival.

Canon = happens to all Shepards.  Defeating Saren is Canon; going on the suicide run and stopping the Collectors is Canon.  For Shepards that die in the suicide mission, their story stops; it does not progress.  For all others, the events of ME3 become canon--ie, discovering the Crucible, dealing with the genophage, charging the Conduit and Harbinger, etc.

It's really, really easy to tell things that are canon; start a non-import game and see what's there.  Results of choices aren't canon, but actions are.  The fact that Hackett sends in a team of commandos to take out the Alpha Relay means that Shepard taking out the Alpha Relay is not, can not, be canon.  I mean, they could ret-con it later if they want; the comic might in fact be a ret-con.  But the way ME3 launched, Arrival was NOT canon.

Speaking of Arrival.  I remember a post that was talking about the Relays in the end not killing everything, and one of the writers explained that they kinda forgot about Arrival when they were writing the end, and that's why that whole scene happened.  (I think the exact post was something like "Informal Interview with Patrick Weekes.")  If they can forget about entire aspects of Arrival, then they can forget about other aspects of Arrival.  Ya dig?

[RyanSoup]

Lord Goose wrote...

Maybe it only detects fully indoctrinated people and not
people undergoing the process?

Kai Leng was still in his ''I'm doing it for humanity'' phase during his final encounter with Shepard.

And, frankly, I don't remember any instance of somebody being ''not fully indoctrinated''.

Fully indoctrinated, eg. Like Saren's final form
Or like any of the reaper infantry

[KingZayd]

RyanSoup wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

So the Reapers' priority is death for Shepard, not indoctrination of him?

If you'll remember, Benezia was in a weakened state before she died and that actually allowed her to RESIST indoctrination.  The reapers at this point are well on their way to wiping everyone out anyway.  Why would they need to indoctrinate Shepard.

Beneziah was an odd case because she had portioned off an untainted part of her mind earlier on. No other indoctrinee has acted like this after you riddled them with bullets. 

As I said earlier on, the indoctrination process seems to be a passive one once it has started.

[Lord Goose]

Wrong, Kai Leng had implants already.

I'm not sure, but do you imply that Prothean VI can only detect those, who were implanted with Reaper tech?

[Dwailing]

Aaleel wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'm going to post a link to a YouTube video of Mass Effect: Conviction (I know, a YouTube video of a comic. Bear with me, please.). Look in the very. First. Panel. And tell me what you see.

SO you're saying that a comic that someone may not have even read overrites something they were told in the actual game.  In the actual game if you didn't do arrival Shepard was not the one that destroyed the relay, commandos did.

Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying.  Arrival.  Is.  CANON!  Just because it's possible to not play it, doesn't make it not canon.  There is an external source that confirms that Walters considers it CANON.

[KiwiQuiche]

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

...seriously? <_<

Are you suggesting that Shepard not doing Arrival is somehow more valid than Shepard doing Arrival?

If not, why are the Shepards who had Object Rho activate on them, NOT indoctrinated, unlike everyone else?

Yes, since she never gets exposed to Object Rho. So it CANNOT BE USED AS A CANON SOURCE AS IT DOESN'T HAPPEN FOR SOME SHEPARDS.

Jesus Christ...How many times do I have to repeat myself to you ITers?

I'm asking you about the ones that did get activated on by Object Rho. WHY AREN'T THEY INDOCTRINATED? (see i can all caps too!)

I had to use all caps because you were pulling the denial card in overdrive. Like most ITers I've met. <_<

IT ISN'T CANON, so stop acting like it is. It's not a reliable source.

[Aaleel]

As far as the VI not sensing Shepard was indoctrinated, it depends on if the VIs detect full indoctrination or every stage of indoctrination.

But as far as the VI on Thessia, it made an obvious attempt to foreshadow the catalyst, or something bigger than the reapers. But the IT says that Catalyst doesn't exist, so if that is the case what was the VI referring to. It was obviously a foreshadowing of the Catalyst.