233 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

Maybe it only detects fully indoctrinated people and not
people undergoing the process?

Kai Leng was still in his ''I'm doing it for humanity'' phase during his final encounter with Shepard.

And, frankly, I don't remember any instance of somebody being ''not fully indoctrinated''.

Kai Leng was indoctrinated by TIM not by the Reapers.

Saren was indoctrinated after Vermire. He was even more indoctrinated at the Citadel. Clearly, indoctrination is not a discrete [0,1] variable.

[Dwailing]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'm going to post a link to a YouTube video of Mass Effect: Conviction (I know, a YouTube video of a comic. Bear with me, please.). Look in the very. First. Panel. And tell me what you see.

Try playing Mass Effect 3 and looking at your War assets. In the Alliance one of 103rd Marine Division, you should see something like this;

"Admiral Hackett dispatched marines to the planet Aratoht to rescue a deep cover agent, Dr. Amanda Kenson.
The teams were killed in an explosion that wiped out both the colony
and the system's relay. The Alliance spent weeks piecing together
scattered radio transmissions, learning that the marines felt they had
no choice but to send an asteroid into the relay to prevent invasion by
the Reapers. While it bought the Alliance some time, the men and women
lost on the mission were a severe blow to the 103rd Marine Corps.
"

I.  Know.  That.  It's.  Possible.  To.  Not.  Play.  ARRIVAL!!!!!!  I'm VERY well aware of that.  What I'm saying is that NOT playing Arrival is considered atypical.  So, Walters had to ADAPT the story for people who DIDN'T play Arrival.  There is an external source that confirms it is considered canon.

[BatmanTurian]

Lord Goose wrote...

Wrong, Kai Leng had implants already.

I'm not sure, but do you imply that Prothean VI can only detect those, who were implanted with Reaper tech?

yes, they can't detect the early stages or the only mentally indoctrinated, hence why sleeper cells were able to get through Prothean battle lines. Protheans thought indoctrination was based on reapertech implanted alone.

[Dwailing]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

...seriously? <_<

Are you suggesting that Shepard not doing Arrival is somehow more valid than Shepard doing Arrival?

If not, why are the Shepards who had Object Rho activate on them, NOT indoctrinated, unlike everyone else?

Yes, since she never gets exposed to Object Rho. So it CANNOT BE USED AS A CANON SOURCE AS IT DOESN'T HAPPEN FOR SOME SHEPARDS.

Jesus Christ...How many times do I have to repeat myself to you ITers?

I'm asking you about the ones that did get activated on by Object Rho. WHY AREN'T THEY INDOCTRINATED? (see i can all caps too!)

I had to use all caps because you were pulling the denial card in overdrive. Like most ITers I've met. <_<

IT ISN'T CANON, so stop acting like it is. It's not a reliable source.

How is something MADE BY BIOWARE not considered a reliable source?

[Aaleel]

Dwailing wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'm going to post a link to a YouTube video of Mass Effect: Conviction (I know, a YouTube video of a comic. Bear with me, please.). Look in the very. First. Panel. And tell me what you see.

SO you're saying that a comic that someone may not have even read overrites something they were told in the actual game.  In the actual game if you didn't do arrival Shepard was not the one that destroyed the relay, commandos did.

Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying.  Arrival.  Is.  CANON!  Just because it's possible to not play it, doesn't make it not canon.  There is an external source that confirms that Walters considers it CANON.

Then why write an alternate storyline for doing it and not doing it in the game.  It's in the actual game.  The comic is an external source.  How can what actually happens in the game carry less weight than something external from the game.

[KingZayd]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

...seriously? <_<

Are you suggesting that Shepard not doing Arrival is somehow more valid than Shepard doing Arrival?

If not, why are the Shepards who had Object Rho activate on them, NOT indoctrinated, unlike everyone else?

Yes, since she never gets exposed to Object Rho. So it CANNOT BE USED AS A CANON SOURCE AS IT DOESN'T HAPPEN FOR SOME SHEPARDS.

Jesus Christ...How many times do I have to repeat myself to you ITers?

I'm asking you about the ones that did get activated on by Object Rho. WHY AREN'T THEY INDOCTRINATED? (see i can all caps too!)

I had to use all caps because you were pulling the denial card in overdrive. Like most ITers I've met. <_<

IT ISN'T CANON, so stop acting like it is. It's not a reliable source.

You're the one who's not acknoweldging the existence of Shepards who have been exposed to Object Rho. Those ones should be indoctrinated. 

Otherwise, why is not doing Arrival more canon than doing Arrival?

[Lord Goose]

Fully indoctrinated, eg. Like Saren's final form
Or like any of the reaper infantry

Where is no instance in the lore, where Saren and husks were specified as ''more indoctrinated'' than, say, Menos Avok or Rana Thanopsis.

[RyanSoup]

KingZayd wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

If you'll remember, Benezia was in a weakened state before she died and that actually allowed her to RESIST indoctrination.  The reapers at this point are well on their way to wiping everyone out anyway.  Why would they need to indoctrinate Shepard.

Beneziah was an odd case because she had portioned off an untainted part of her mind earlier on. No other indoctrinee has acted like this after you riddled them with bullets. 

As I said earlier on, the indoctrination process seems to be a passive one once it has started.

I actually just played that part.  She becomes fatigued after using her biotics.  You never actually riddle her full of bullet holes.  Bear in mind that she didn't have implants like Saren or TIM.  She may have had a biotic implant, but that seems to be about it.

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

Fully indoctrinated, eg. Like Saren's final form
Or like any of the reaper infantry

Where is no instance in the lore, where Saren and husks were specified as ''more indoctrinated'' than, say, Menos Avok or Rana Thanopsis.

Saren at the end of ME1 is more indoctrinated than the Saren at Vermire.

[RyanSoup]

Maybe I should elaborate. You do kill Benezia, but you don't shoot her before she regains control

[BatmanTurian]

Lord Goose wrote...

Fully indoctrinated, eg. Like Saren's final form
Or like any of the reaper infantry

Where is no instance in the lore, where Saren and husks were specified as ''more indoctrinated'' than, say, Menos Avok or Rana Thanopsis.

Husk is as fully indoctrinated as you can get because the Reapertech takes over most of their body. The Collectors were just genetically modified husked Protheans.

[KingZayd]

RyanSoup wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

If you'll remember, Benezia was in a weakened state before she died and that actually allowed her to RESIST indoctrination.  The reapers at this point are well on their way to wiping everyone out anyway.  Why would they need to indoctrinate Shepard.

Beneziah was an odd case because she had portioned off an untainted part of her mind earlier on. No other indoctrinee has acted like this after you riddled them with bullets. 

As I said earlier on, the indoctrination process seems to be a passive one once it has started.

I actually just played that part.  She becomes fatigued after using her biotics.  You never actually riddle her full of bullet holes.  Bear in mind that she didn't have implants like Saren or TIM.  She may have had a biotic implant, but that seems to be about it.

Didn't I? It's been a long while, but surely I was shooting at her all that time?

[RyanSoup]

Lord Goose wrote...

Fully indoctrinated, eg. Like Saren's final form
Or like any of the reaper infantry

Where is no instance in the lore, where Saren and husks were specified as ''more indoctrinated'' than, say, Menos Avok or Rana Thanopsis.

You sure?  Did you check the Codex?

[Erield]

Lord Goose wrote...

Fully indoctrinated, eg. Like Saren's final form
Or like any of the reaper infantry

Where is no instance in the lore, where Saren and husks were specified as ''more indoctrinated'' than, say, Menos Avok or Rana Thanopsis.

While I disagree with IT, I also disagree with your statement.  We can see a clear downward trend in Saren's ability to think for himself throughout your encounters with him in ME1.  The question to answer is:  How much IT is necessary for the Thessia VI to detect?  Possibly also, What is the Thessia VI actually detecting when it states that it has found an Indoctrinated individual?

[RyanSoup]

@KingZayd

You CAN shoot at her before tiring her out, but she's 's invulnerable until you take out the first 3 or 4 waves of enemies

[KiwiQuiche]

Dwailing wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...


I had to use all caps because you were pulling the denial card in overdrive. Like most ITers I've met. <_<

IT ISN'T CANON, so stop acting like it is. It's not a reliable source.

How is something MADE BY BIOWARE not considered a reliable source?

Because it didn't happen for some, maybe?

Dwailing wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'm
going to post a link to a YouTube video of Mass Effect: Conviction (I
know, a YouTube video of a comic. Bear with me, please.). Look in the
very. First. Panel. And tell me what you see.

Try playing
Mass Effect 3 and looking at your War assets. In the Alliance one of
103rd Marine Division, you should see something like this;

"Admiral Hackett dispatched marines to the planet Aratoht to rescue a deep cover agent, Dr. Amanda Kenson.
The teams were killed in an explosion that wiped out both the colony
and the system's relay. The Alliance spent weeks piecing together
scattered radio transmissions, learning that the marines felt they had
no choice but to send an asteroid into the relay to prevent invasion by
the Reapers. While it bought the Alliance some time, the men and women
lost on the mission were a severe blow to the 103rd Marine Corps.
"

I.
 Know.  That.  It's.  Possible.  To.  Not.  Play.  ARRIVAL!!!!!!  I'm
VERY well aware of that.  What I'm saying is that NOT playing Arrival is
considered atypical.  So, Walters had to ADAPT the story for people who
DIDN'T play Arrival.  There is an external source that confirms it is
considered canon.

Soooo...something in a book trumps something in the actual game?

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...


I had to use all caps because you were pulling the denial card in overdrive. Like most ITers I've met. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

IT ISN'T CANON, so stop acting like it is. It's not a reliable source.

You're
the one who's not acknoweldging the existence of Shepards who have been
exposed to Object Rho. Those ones should be indoctrinated. 

Otherwise, why is not doing Arrival more canon than doing Arrival?

Don't put words in my mouth. I know it happens, yet it doesn't happen for some. That's like saying Aslistar is King in DA2 even if you put Anora on the throne and married her. So yes, Arrival isn't canon since you can either do it, or not. It isn't reliable for IT.

[Jadebaby]

Bare with me OP...

RyanSoup wrote...

We should all know by now what Indoctrination Theory is, but for those of you who don't yet, the theory is that at the end of Priority: Earth, after Shepard is hit by a reaper's laser, Sheperd becomes indoctrinated and the whole ending is just a hallucination.

Already we have some slight misunderstandings. It's not that Shepard becomes indoctrinated. That seed is planted at the beginning of the game, they very first scene infact. What many believe is that after he is knocked unconscious by Harbinger's beam, he is forced into a battle in his mind, to retain his sanity and beliefs from Reaper influence.

Here's the problem with that:  we need to look at the amount of time that Shepard's actually spent around reapers.  It really isn't much compared to Saren or The Illusive Man.  Saren, for example, traversed the galaxy inside of Sovreign.

Although it's not exactly clear what point Saren became indoctrinated, he was aware of something greater before ever finding Sovereign. Though Sovereign is most probably the root cause for his Indoctrination.

The Illusive Man had the human reaper larva's heart/brain in the center of his main base for at least a few months.  In contrast, Shepard often only spends a few hours near a reaper at any given time.

TIM was indoctrinated well before he had the Reaper's Larva inside his base. Someone probably already cleared that up though. While Shepard on the other hand, may not have spent as much time around Reaper tech as Saren, but he did spend more than TIM.

Now, despite Sovreign's proximity on Vermire in ME1, Vigil later says that he, "does not detect the taint of indoctrination" on Shepard.

That's in ME1... lolwuh? But regardless it is somewhat believed that the Prothean Vi's can only sense Indoctrination if the subject has been implanted with such tech. Saren in ME1 & Kai Lang in ME3.

So, with that established, the question now is "how would Shepard have become indoctrinated that much in such a short amount of time, while still retaining much of his sanity?"

The most arguable thing you have said so far. People believe that Shepard's contact with Object Rho may have rooted the Indoctrination. That's 6 months previous to ME3, a decent amount of time. Again, also note what i'm talking about at the beginning, it's not that Shepard is indoctrinated. It's that Shepard is starting to see and feel unusual stimuli that is changing/shapping his beliefs of what he thinks is right (Reaper influence), when he's knocked out at the end, that's the reapers trying to fast-track their influence (indoctrination) while he's unconscious.

While I concede that both Saren and The Illusive man had extensive implantation done, this only occurred after the indoctrination had begun working.

 

Don't see how implants relate...

Also worth noting was Matriarch Benezia's ability to retain some control after becoming severely fatigued.  I'd love to hear what others think, however.

Matriach Benezia was a thousand year old Asari, arguably stronger willed than Shepard. This is believable.

[KingZayd]

RyanSoup wrote...

@KingZayd

You CAN shoot at her before tiring her out, but she's 's invulnerable until you take out the first 3 or 4 waves of enemies

And after those waves she's tired out? Was she just buffing the squad or something?

[Dwailing]

Aaleel wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I'm going to post a link to a YouTube video of Mass Effect: Conviction (I know, a YouTube video of a comic. Bear with me, please.). Look in the very. First. Panel. And tell me what you see.

SO you're saying that a comic that someone may not have even read overrites something they were told in the actual game.  In the actual game if you didn't do arrival Shepard was not the one that destroyed the relay, commandos did.

Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying.  Arrival.  Is.  CANON!  Just because it's possible to not play it, doesn't make it not canon.  There is an external source that confirms that Walters considers it CANON.

Then why write an alternate storyline for doing it and not doing it in the game.  It's in the actual game.  The comic is an external source.  How can what actually happens in the game carry less weight than something external from the game.

I'm not denying that it's possible to not play Arrival, what I'm saying is that it's considered CANON in the main universe.  This is the ONLY time that something that was possible to not be played in game is assumed as canon in an external source.  That has to mean SOMETHING.  Have you read the novels?  Have you read any of the other comics?  They've ALWAYS tried to keep the choices Shepard made ambiguous.  Heck, in the Liara comic (I can't remember its name, sue me.), they even MAKE IT CLEAR that they're not going to confirm Shepard as male of female.

[Lord Goose]

Scientists, who studied Object Rho, were not indoctrinated immediately after first vision. They send message to Hackett, prepared to blow up Mass Relay. It probably took days or even months to do everything.

[NoSpin]

Whether Arrival is canon or not (coughitiscough), Shepard is fighting the reapers throughout all 3 games. He boards a "dead" reaper. He comes face to face with Sovereign, the Human Reaper, the Rannoch reaper. If you don't believe in IT, fine. But don't use the excuse that Shepard hasn't been around the Reapers long enough to be indoctrinated. He sure as hell has.

(It started in Arrival, if you didn't play Arrival it started in a less obvious place. Bioware will rewrite the story around you, but won't change the key plot point, Shepard was undergoing indoctrination.)

Modifié par NoSpin, 14 juin 2012 - 11:26 .

[Aaleel]

We don't really know how the VIs work. Would the VI on Ilos had detected Saren near the beginning of his time after discovering Sovereign? Is there a certain level of indoctrination where the VIs start detecting it. This is the question that needs answered.

For the record I don't believe in the IT at all, just trying to be fair.

[BlackAceAngel]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

 not doing Arrival isn't any more canon than doing Arrival. Therefore, if Shepard hasn't been indoctrinated as a result of Object Rho, why hasn't he?

...seriously? <_<

Are you suggesting that Shepard not doing Arrival is somehow more valid than Shepard doing Arrival?

If not, why are the Shepards who had Object Rho activate on them, NOT indoctrinated, unlike everyone else?

Yes, since she never gets exposed to Object Rho. So it CANNOT BE USED AS A CANON SOURCE AS IT DOESN'T HAPPEN FOR SOME SHEPARDS.

Jesus Christ...How many times do I have to repeat myself to you ITers?

I'm asking you about the ones that did get activated on by Object Rho. WHY AREN'T THEY INDOCTRINATED? (see i can all caps too!)

I had to use all caps because you were pulling the denial card in overdrive. Like most ITers I've met. <_<

IT ISN'T CANON, so stop acting like it is. It's not a reliable source.

If you have the Arrival DLC (which is canon for your story) the indoctrination theory with the Object Rho works, but dont have the Arrival DLC (which is canon for these who didn't have) then the indoctrination theory would not work.

So question should be how would the indoctrination theory work with or without Arrival DLC and not want is CANON (look I can use caps too).

[NoSpin]

And again, the VI didn't work because Shepard is not indoctrinated until you choose Synthesis or Control. Process of indoctrination does not equal indoctrinated.

[Lord Goose]

Saren at the end of ME1 is more indoctrinated than the Saren
at Vermire.

Sovereign exercises more control over Saren at the end than at Vermire.

And, yes, I would like to see solid proof. Quote from the game, for example.