233 réponses à ce sujet

[PreciousIsland]

 The biggest problem would be that there is no narrative reason for Shepard to be indoctrinated.  If he was, well, so what?  Bioware releases DLC where he wakes up and then there is a real ending?  Why not just have the real ending in the first place then?  Not for money, since the EC is free.

You see, even the dream should have some narrative purpose and not be incomprehensible garbage.  Otherwise there would be no point in including it at all.  That would be BAD WRITING.

IT people refuse to believe that Bioware wrote a bad ending to the series.  IT is their invention that explains how the ending could possibly be explained in a way other than saying that it was poorly crafted.

But guess what?  If IT is true, it would still be horrible writing, because IT would be stupid and horrible as a story.  With this in mind, there is no justification for "believing in it" at all.  It's bad writing, one way or the other.  Accept it.  

Go watch some movie trailers at the multiplex.  Bad writing isn't rare.  Watch TV.  Watch Criminal Minds.  I think there is a scene in that show where two people are using the same keyboard at once in order to defend against a hacker.  Most of everything you see is retarded.  You are probably retarded.  It's OK.  It's normal.

[KingZayd]

RyanSoup wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

What are you talking about?  Saren was indoctrinated on Eden Prime.  It's not like he was born with Geth parts sticking out of his body

Saren: I suppose I should thank you, Shepard. After Virmire, I couldn't stop thinking about what you said. Abut Sovereign manipulating me, about--indoctrination. The doubts began to eat away at me. Sovereign sensed my hesitation. I was implanted to strengthen my resolve. Now my doubts are gone. I believe in Sovereign completely

If that counts, then what about the part where you use speech checks to make him kill himself at the end?  Based on that logic, we could say that he wasn't actually indoctrinated until he turned into a spooky hopper-thing.  Is there anything you want to add to your argument in order to substantiate it?

No. Based on that logic, when we met him on Vermire, he was indoctrinated. When we met him on the Citadel, he was even more indoctrinated. When we fought the final time, he was basically a robot skeleton.

[Lord Goose]

James also references the events of Conviction in the game,
even if your character did NOT play through Arrival.

But where are certain differences in the game, if you haven't played Arrival.
-Shepard isn't responsible for destruction of the Batarian colonies.
-103rd Marines Division is depleted.
-Batarian terrorist quest is different.

So, I guess, Conviction is fully-canon only if you played Arrival. If you didn't, it isn't part of your playthrough.

[The Milky Waver]

The indoctrination theory doesn't pick up at the very end within a matter of seconds, but really comes into play when the young "child" is introduced to the story. Shepard has spent large amounts of time around reaper technology, whether it be a reaper ground troop, a Collector, an indoctrinated individual, some sort of reaper device (object rho, for example), or even a reaper ship (derelict reaper).

Shepard has had conversations with three of the reapers themselves throughout the series, one of them being the leader of the reaper armada, and is therefore most likely more advanced than the other reapers. The other two consisted of another flag ship, Sovereign, and the other a destroyer reaper.

During those conversations, Shepard's mind could have easily been bombarded with indoctrination attempts, and very powerful ones at that. The indoctrination attempt that I believe broke Shepard was the "child" being seemingly destroyed on Earth. Shepard is a very valuable asset, capable of things that no one else is, and the reapers know that. They could be devoting a huge amount of power into the attempt to break Shepard's will. 

It says in the codex that indoctrination can take weeks, or even years to indoctrinate an individual, both of those time frames are liable when it comes to Shepard. 

Modifié par The Milky Waver, 15 juin 2012 - 12:02 .

[RyanSoup]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

@BatmanTurian

That person you quoted deserves a slap for having the audacity to declare other peoples Shepards invalid because they didn't buy OPTIONAL DLC.


That is the most arrogant thing I have ever seen.

Are you serious? Being non-cannon and invalid are two completely different things, stop being melo-dramatic.

If you want to get real technical, canon up to ME3 is a QuickStart ME3 character, not imported.

[BatmanTurian]

jijeebo wrote...

LOL @ ITer insulting my intelligence... How cliche.


Go back under your bridge, you're doing your theory a disservice.

I was only citing a koan. Sorry if you didn't get it.

[Lord Goose]

When we met him on the Citadel, he was
even more indoctrinated.

Its your personal interpetation.
Lore doesn't operate with ideas of partial and full indoctrination.
It makes difference only in regards to rapid and slow indoctrination.

[Bill Casey]

BatmanTurian wrote...

to clarify, i think you mean before Eden Prime, but yeah, those aren't Geth parts. Those are implants from Sovereign.

"The Art of Mass Effect" confirms that Saren's left arm is a grafted Geth arm...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 juin 2012 - 12:03 .

[jijeebo]

@Jade sorry but I can't quote atm.

But for me, creating a scenario where there are "canon" and "non-canon" Shepards is as good as saying "valid" and "invalid"... Because the self proclaimed "canon" players will simply dismiss people whos Shepards don't meet their criteria.

"You didn't play Arrival, your Shepard isn't even canon." - that sort of thing.


All Shepards are equal.

[Jadebaby]

RyanSoup wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

@BatmanTurian

That person you quoted deserves a slap for having the audacity to declare other peoples Shepards invalid because they didn't buy OPTIONAL DLC.


That is the most arrogant thing I have ever seen.

Are you serious? Being non-cannon and invalid are two completely different things, stop being melo-dramatic.

If you want to get real technical, canon up to ME3 is a QuickStart ME3 character, not imported.

In it's own right yes.

But in that light, the '3' in Mass Effect 3 is canon also, so technically that renders quickstart ME3 characters non-canon again.

[BatmanTurian]

jijeebo wrote...

@Jade sorry but I can't quote atm.

But for me, creating a scenario where there are "canon" and "non-canon" Shepards is as good as saying "valid" and "invalid"... Because the self proclaimed "canon" players will simply dismiss people whos Shepards don't meet their criteria.

"You didn't play Arrival, your Shepard isn't even canon." - that sort of thing.


All Shepards are equal.

Sure your Shep is valid. Maybe less informed. Also Hackett is a ****** for sending marines to do a Spectre's work. But yeah, your Shep isn't invalidated since they wrote that alternate universe stuff in.

We really should get Mac Walters to settle this since he created this mess.

[Lord Goose]

During those conversations, Shepard's mind could have
easily been bombarded with indoctrination attempts, and
very powerful ones at that.

I think you demonize indoctrination too much.
If Reapers could indoctrinate anybody just by talking to hm, fighting against them would be impossible.
It took 504 hours of direct contact with Reaper implants to subdue Paul Grayson, and Shepard spent muuuch less time in contact with all the Reapers.

[BatmanTurian]

Bill Casey wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

to clarify, i think you mean before Eden Prime, but yeah, those aren't Geth parts. Those are implants from Sovereign.

"The Art of Mass Effect" confirms that Saren's left arm is a grafted Geth arm...

yeah but his eyes, teeth and some other parts are Reapertech.

[KingZayd]

PreciousIsland wrote...

 The biggest problem would be that there is no narrative reason for Shepard to be indoctrinated.  If he was, well, so what?  Bioware releases DLC where he wakes up and then there is a real ending?  Why not just have the real ending in the first place then?  Not for money, since the EC is free.

You see, even the dream should have some narrative purpose and not be incomprehensible garbage.  Otherwise there would be no point in including it at all.  That would be BAD WRITING.

IT people refuse to believe that Bioware wrote a bad ending to the series.  IT is their invention that explains how the ending could possibly be explained in a way other than saying that it was poorly crafted.

But guess what?  If IT is true, it would still be horrible writing, because IT would be stupid and horrible as a story.  With this in mind, there is no justification for "believing in it" at all.  It's bad writing, one way or the other.  Accept it.  

Go watch some movie trailers at the multiplex.  Bad writing isn't rare.  Watch TV.  Watch Criminal Minds.  I think there is a scene in that show where two people are using the same keyboard at once in order to defend against a hacker.  Most of everything you see is retarded.  You are probably retarded.  It's OK.  It's normal.

According to IT, what happens in the dream does have some narrative purpose. It tells us something about Shepard. And it has consequences for when he wakes up.

And I had assumed the ending was terrible writing before. Even when I watched the indoctrination videos, which I didn't find particularly convincing. It was only later on, when watching some gameplay videos on youtube.. particularly TIM's storyline that I came to the conclusion that yes, Bioware really were focusing on indoctrination when making this game.

As for if IT is true, it being horrible writing.. well that's your opinion. Obviously some agree with you and some don't.

[aMytallica]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Nuclear Pete wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Nuclear Pete wrote...

IT makes no sense... If shepard was indoctrinated by object rho, why did he slam it into a relay?

Why did he destroy the collector base? Why did he spend all of ME3 recruiting the galaxy, fighting cerberus and destorying reapers on Tuchanka, Rannoch and Earth?

With or without the Arrival DLC, IT makes no sense. This theory makes less sense than the current ending.

yeah it makes no sense because you haven't done your research, or you wouldn't have said any of that.

Research? I'm familiar with IT, it's kinda hard to avoid. I've also played the games, read the books. I think those that support IT are conveniently ignoring the facts. There just isn't enough evidence to support IT

Yes, there isn't a whole three games, books, comic books, or a codex that supports IT at all.

If you look at only specific things that support it, and ignore all the things that don't, then sure I guess. IT just seems like a massive stretch to me; a scramble to find links and "evidence" to this theory that distract from the actual ending. I'm not convinced at all. Especially when you consider that if it were true, then we never actually defeat the reapers... Not sure how that is preferable to what we got.

[RyanSoup]

The Milky Waver wrote...

The indoctrination theory doesn't pick up at the very end within a matter of seconds, but really comes into play when the young "child" is introduced to the story. Shepard has spent large amounts of time around reaper technology, whether it be a reaper ground troop, a Collector, an indoctrinated individual, some sort of reaper device (object rho, for example), or even a reaper ship (derelict reaper).

Shepard has had conversations with three of the reapers themselves throughout the series, one of them being the leader of the reaper armada, and is therefore most likely more advanced than the other reapers. The other two consisted of another flag ship, Sovereign, and the other a destroyer reaper.

If each reaper is unique, as Sovreign says, then one might infer that each reaper has its own thralls.  How else would that work, really.  In any case, I refer back to ME1 when I say that Vigil never detected indoctrination in Shepard.  While you can argue that "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence", remember Legion?  We found him on the derelict reaper.  He wasn't indoctrinated.  In any case, indoctrination has to do with proximity and duration, not with some sort of mystical reaper willpower.  If that were the case, the entire STG team on Vermire should have been indoctrinated as well.

[KingZayd]

RyanSoup wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

@BatmanTurian

That person you quoted deserves a slap for having the audacity to declare other peoples Shepards invalid because they didn't buy OPTIONAL DLC.


That is the most arrogant thing I have ever seen.

Are you serious? Being non-cannon and invalid are two completely different things, stop being melo-dramatic.

If you want to get real technical, canon up to ME3 is a QuickStart ME3 character, not imported.

Is it though? or is it the combination picked to be the least confusing to newcomers? you know.. those people who decide the best point to start in a trilogy is the end.

[BatmanTurian]

aMytallica wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Nuclear Pete wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Nuclear Pete wrote...

IT makes no sense... If shepard was indoctrinated by object rho, why did he slam it into a relay?

Why did he destroy the collector base? Why did he spend all of ME3 recruiting the galaxy, fighting cerberus and destorying reapers on Tuchanka, Rannoch and Earth?

With or without the Arrival DLC, IT makes no sense. This theory makes less sense than the current ending.

yeah it makes no sense because you haven't done your research, or you wouldn't have said any of that.

Research? I'm familiar with IT, it's kinda hard to avoid. I've also played the games, read the books. I think those that support IT are conveniently ignoring the facts. There just isn't enough evidence to support IT

Yes, there isn't a whole three games, books, comic books, or a codex that supports IT at all.

If you look at only specific things that support it, and ignore all the things that don't, then sure I guess. IT just seems like a massive stretch to me; a scramble to find links and "evidence" to this theory that distract from the actual ending. I'm not convinced at all. Especially when you consider that if it were true, then we never actually defeat the reapers... Not sure how that is preferable to what we got.

And you are free to believe whatever you like.

[KingZayd]

RyanSoup wrote...

The Milky Waver wrote...

The indoctrination theory doesn't pick up at the very end within a matter of seconds, but really comes into play when the young "child" is introduced to the story. Shepard has spent large amounts of time around reaper technology, whether it be a reaper ground troop, a Collector, an indoctrinated individual, some sort of reaper device (object rho, for example), or even a reaper ship (derelict reaper).

Shepard has had conversations with three of the reapers themselves throughout the series, one of them being the leader of the reaper armada, and is therefore most likely more advanced than the other reapers. The other two consisted of another flag ship, Sovereign, and the other a destroyer reaper.

If each reaper is unique, as Sovreign says, then one might infer that each reaper has its own thralls.  How else would that work, really.  In any case, I refer back to ME1 when I say that Vigil never detected indoctrination in Shepard.  While you can argue that "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence", remember Legion?  We found him on the derelict reaper.  He wasn't indoctrinated.  In any case, indoctrination has to do with proximity and duration, not with some sort of mystical reaper willpower.  If that were the case, the entire STG team on Vermire should have been indoctrinated as well.

Actually, the fact that Shiala hears the voices of the reapers, despite having only been Sovereign's "thrall" with Sovereign being dead, and that TIM can control the reaper husks suggests that the indoctrination doesn't "belong" to a particular puppeteer.

Legion can't be indoctrinated because he's a Geth, not an organic.

[Jadebaby]

jijeebo wrote...

@Jade sorry but I can't quote atm.

But for me, creating a scenario where there are "canon" and "non-canon" Shepards is as good as saying "valid" and "invalid"... Because the self proclaimed "canon" players will simply dismiss people whos Shepards don't meet their criteria.

"You didn't play Arrival, your Shepard isn't even canon." - that sort of thing.


All Shepards are equal.

All Shepard's are equal, but some have varying degrees to how strongly their Shepard is implemented into the game. For example a person who takes a Shepard from ME1 to ME3 without romancing anyone or even talking to any of their squadmates inbetween missions, and also not playing any of the dlcs isn't going to know as much about the game as someone  who does do all of the above. So while each Shepard is equal in how strongly you can feel for them. There are varying degrees to the extent your Shepard can interact with the universe.

Basically, and probably should have done this from the start, this is what I mean....

2168 CE

Shepard receives secondary exposure to element zero. Permanent biotic inclination manifests.

This is apart of the canon, yet not every Shepard is a biotic. You see what I'm saying?

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

During those conversations, Shepard's mind could have
easily been bombarded with indoctrination attempts, and
very powerful ones at that.

I think you demonize indoctrination too much.
If Reapers could indoctrinate anybody just by talking to hm, fighting against them would be impossible.
It took 504 hours of direct contact with Reaper implants to subdue Paul Grayson, and Shepard spent muuuch less time in contact with all the Reapers.

Shiala can hear the voices of the reapers without them being right in front of her. This suggests the effects of indoctrination don't require you to be standing right in front of one once it's started.

[WandySilva]

RyanSoup wrote...


So, with that established, the question now is "how would Shepard have become indoctrinated that much in such a short amount of time, while still retaining much of his sanity?"  Admittedly his actions at the end are a little strange, but yours would be too if you were bleeding out that exorbitantly.  That said, I do understand that some fans would like to believe that there

the IT explaination for this is that youre exposure to many different reaper artifacts (regardless of playing arrival or not), has worn on shepards mind and has begun to manifest as early as the beginning of the third game. the first manifestation being the boy on earth, the reapers projecting a small innocent boy dieing and, you, shepard watching helplessly as it happens is an attempt to break your will.

It manifests further by the dream sequences shepard has at key points in the plot to further weaken his resolve, by forcing shepard to remember those he couldnt save(you do hear the voices of the virmire victim/thane/anyone else who died in one of the dreams), creating guilt and doubt.

The final dream is especially telling, shepard standing with the boy, both smiling, and the two of them burning. This can be interpereted as shepards sub-consious warning him that following that boy, although he promises resolution and happyness, will lead to shepards death.

You could say that the only thing preventing shepard from becoming indoctrinated earlier in the game is his will to destroy the reapers, which ties into the final choice he must make choose anything but destory, is giving into the reapers will, and you become indoctrinated, If you have readied enough of the galaxy and choose destroy, you survive the process and wake up alive, free of indoctrination, back on earth.

[DiebytheSword]

RyanSoup wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

What are you talking about?  Saren was indoctrinated on Eden Prime.  It's not like he was born with Geth parts sticking out of his body

Saren: I suppose I should thank you, Shepard. After Virmire, I couldn't stop thinking about what you said. Abut Sovereign manipulating me, about--indoctrination. The doubts began to eat away at me. Sovereign sensed my hesitation. I was implanted to strengthen my resolve. Now my doubts are gone. I believe in Sovereign completely

If that counts, then what about the part where you use speech checks to make him kill himself at the end?  Based on that logic, we could say that he wasn't actually indoctrinated until he turned into a spooky hopper-thing.  Is there anything you want to add to your argument in order to substantiate it?

Saren was almost completely controlled by the Reapers by the end, but he still had the ability to resist until the end because he was strong willed.

I think in Saren's case, much like the Illusive Man, there were originally many thoughts they thought where their own.  Saren felt he could ally with the reapers to spare some, TIM thought he could defeat them by controlling them using their own methods.  Both times, the suggestion was mild at the onset, until the Reapers needed them to do their appointed task.

Murdering freinds, betraying allies, butchering colonies.  The list of atrocities eventually grew to the point where you can't be sure if it was Saren/TIM or the Reapers calling the shots.

Only at the end were their actions clearly theirs for only a breif moment if you managed to get them to commit suicide.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 15 juin 2012 - 12:18 .

[j78]

I thought this was settled ages ago ? The IT people aren’t wrong BW did intend to have a indoctrination ending they just couldn’t get it to work game play wise .  And as for complaints that the game's three endings don't provide enough variety? As late as November, the developers were considering at least one drastically different ending that was eventually scrapped. The sequence would have seen the player lose control of Commander Shepard, revealing that he or she had actually been indoctrinated by the Reapers. This ending was eventually cut for technical reasons, as the team was having a hard time making the gameplay mechanic work alongside dialogue choices. http://www.gameranx....versial-ending/

[RyanSoup]

Lord Goose wrote...

James also references the events of Conviction in the game,
even if your character did NOT play through Arrival.

But where are certain differences in the game, if you haven't played Arrival.
-Shepard isn't responsible for destruction of the Batarian colonies.
-103rd Marines Division is depleted.
-Batarian terrorist quest is different.

So, I guess, Conviction is fully-canon only if you played Arrival. If you didn't, it isn't part of your playthrough.

I thought the Batarians terrorist quest was based on Bring Down The Sky