233 réponses à ce sujet

[RyanSoup]

KingZayd wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

During those conversations, Shepard's mind could have
easily been bombarded with indoctrination attempts, and
very powerful ones at that.

I think you demonize indoctrination too much.
If Reapers could indoctrinate anybody just by talking to hm, fighting against them would be impossible.
It took 504 hours of direct contact with Reaper implants to subdue Paul Grayson, and Shepard spent muuuch less time in contact with all the Reapers.

Shiala can hear the voices of the reapers without them being right in front of her. This suggests the effects of indoctrination don't require you to be standing right in front of one once it's started.

That doesn't mean that it's still progressing.  Indoctrination may be cumulative

[RyanSoup]

KingZayd wrote...

Is it though? or is it the combination picked to be the least confusing to newcomers? you know.. those people who decide the best point to start in a trilogy is the end.

Why can't it be both?

[KingZayd]

RyanSoup wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

During those conversations, Shepard's mind could have
easily been bombarded with indoctrination attempts, and
very powerful ones at that.

I think you demonize indoctrination too much.
If Reapers could indoctrinate anybody just by talking to hm, fighting against them would be impossible.
It took 504 hours of direct contact with Reaper implants to subdue Paul Grayson, and Shepard spent muuuch less time in contact with all the Reapers.

Shiala can hear the voices of the reapers without them being right in front of her. This suggests the effects of indoctrination don't require you to be standing right in front of one once it's started.

That doesn't mean that it's still progressing.  Indoctrination may be cumulative

Nothing suggests it isn't progressing either. For Rana Thanoptis, it seems to happen automatically too.

[The Milky Waver]

RyanSoup wrote...

The Milky Waver wrote...

The indoctrination theory doesn't pick up at the very end within a matter of seconds, but really comes into play when the young "child" is introduced to the story. Shepard has spent large amounts of time around reaper technology, whether it be a reaper ground troop, a Collector, an indoctrinated individual, some sort of reaper device (object rho, for example), or even a reaper ship (derelict reaper).

Shepard has had conversations with three of the reapers themselves throughout the series, one of them being the leader of the reaper armada, and is therefore most likely more advanced than the other reapers. The other two consisted of another flag ship, Sovereign, and the other a destroyer reaper.

If each reaper is unique, as Sovreign says, then one might infer that each reaper has its own thralls.  How else would that work, really.  In any case, I refer back to ME1 when I say that Vigil never detected indoctrination in Shepard.  While you can argue that "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence", remember Legion?  We found him on the derelict reaper.  He wasn't indoctrinated.  In any case, indoctrination has to do with proximity and duration, not with some sort of mystical reaper willpower.  If that were the case, the entire STG team on Vermire should have been indoctrinated as well.

First off Legion detested the reapers and their cause. Also, why would the reapers put in the effort to indoctrinate a single geth platform, with a few uprgrades that made it more independant? He would end up like the rest of the hundreds of Geth Shepard had killed. Secondly, Sovereign saw Shepard as unsignificant when first meeting him and most likely didn't even make any attempts at indoctrination, and didn't realise what he was capable of, so you can just dismiss that claim of mine, but that leaves two other reapers. However, when Sovereign was destroyed by Shepard, the reapers recognized his potential as an individual, his potential as a symbol for humanity. That is when the indoctrination attempts come into play. Take the Illusive Man into account in ME3 as well, as he is indoctrinated, a pawn for the reapers. The reapers could have been attacking Shepard's broken will through the Illusive Man. The reapers only seem to indoctrinate key individuals that will aid their cause significantly.

Modifié par The Milky Waver, 15 juin 2012 - 12:26 .

[RyanSoup]

j78 wrote...


I thought this was settled ages ago ? The IT people aren’t wrong BW did intend to have a indoctrination ending they just couldn’t get it to work game play wise .  And as for complaints that the game's three endings don't provide enough variety? As late as November, the developers were considering at least one drastically different ending that was eventually scrapped. The sequence would have seen the player lose control of Commander Shepard, revealing that he or she had actually been indoctrinated by the Reapers. This ending was eventually cut for technical reasons, as the team was having a hard time making the gameplay mechanic work alongside dialogue choices. http://www.gameranx....versial-ending/

Here's the thing:  if Shepard has a choice, he's not significantly indoctrinated.  The big implication I'm seeing here is that Shepard can't choose Control for him/herself, because of he/she does, it's because Shepard was indoctrinated this whole time.  The entire notion is asinine.  Maybe my Shepard's a real impressionable dick.  Maybe TIM rubbed off on him.  That doesn't technically mean he's indoctrinated.
What I'm saying is that because there's a choice, there is no Indoctrination Theory.

[hexediter]

To many people seem to think indoctrination works like an on/off switch and is binary when everything we've seen seems to reveal that it is not.  Indoctrination when it works well, does so because the victim retains some working portion of there mind, this allows the person to be both more functional and more believable/convincing to the rest of the non-indoctrinated world.  The flip side of the coin is that this allows potential for people to resist, depending on the strength of the mind.  And if you can resist after it has already taken hold, it doesn't seem like a stretch to assume you can resist as it is trying to take hold in the first place.

We don't know how the prothean VI scans for indoctrination, but the first thing that came to mind for me was the matrix where Morpheus is given the mind control syrim and that at a certain point your brain waves turn to a certain pattern, in this case this would be a pattern indicative of reaper control.  Needing to have implants to be indoctrinated is not how it works as we can safely assume many people have been indoctrinated with no implants and instead through the use of artifacts/proxiity.  The reapers putting implants into you though obviously is not going to help you in the goal of not being indoctrinated...

[Helios969]

The biggest problem with IDT is that the trilogy cannot be resolved with added details and clarity promised for EC. I personally prefer IDT to literal interpretation, but fighting off ID doesn't get Reaper-free skies over Earth.

[RyanSoup]

hexediter wrote...

We don't know how the prothean VI scans for indoctrination, but the first thing that came to mind for me was the matrix where Morpheus is given the mind control syrim and that at a certain point your brain waves turn to a certain pattern, in this case this would be a pattern indicative of reaper control.  Needing to have implants to be indoctrinated is not how it works as we can safely assume many people have been indoctrinated with no implants and instead through the use of artifacts/proxiity.  The reapers putting implants into you though obviously is not going to help you in the goal of not being indoctrinated...

Saren: I suppose I should thank you, Shepard. After Virmire, I couldn't stop thinking about what you said. Abut Sovereign manipulating me, about--indoctrination. The doubts began to eat away at me. Sovereign sensed my hesitation. I was implanted to strengthen my resolve. Now my doubts are gone. I believe in Sovereign completely

[WandySilva]

Helios969 wrote...

The biggest problem with IDT is that the trilogy cannot be resolved with added details and clarity promised for EC. I personally prefer IDT to literal interpretation, but fighting off ID doesn't get Reaper-free skies over Earth.

no, but expensive future dlc might

[KingZayd]

RyanSoup wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Is it though? or is it the combination picked to be the least confusing to newcomers? you know.. those people who decide the best point to start in a trilogy is the end.

Why can't it be both?

It could be, but just because it's the default for the newcomers, doesn't mean it's what's "canon".

[The Milky Waver]

Helios969 wrote...

The biggest problem with IDT is that the trilogy cannot be resolved with added details and clarity promised for EC. I personally prefer IDT to literal interpretation, but fighting off ID doesn't get Reaper-free skies over Earth.

No, is definitely doesn't, but it at least gives Shepard a chance to do so.

[Jadebaby]

RyanSoup wrote...

j78 wrote...


I thought this was settled ages ago ? The IT people aren’t wrong BW did intend to have a indoctrination ending they just couldn’t get it to work game play wise .  And as for complaints that the game's three endings don't provide enough variety? As late as November, the developers were considering at least one drastically different ending that was eventually scrapped. The sequence would have seen the player lose control of Commander Shepard, revealing that he or she had actually been indoctrinated by the Reapers. This ending was eventually cut for technical reasons, as the team was having a hard time making the gameplay mechanic work alongside dialogue choices. http://www.gameranx....versial-ending/

Here's the thing:  if Shepard has a choice, he's not significantly indoctrinated.  The big implication I'm seeing here is that Shepard can't choose Control for him/herself, because of he/she does, it's because Shepard was indoctrinated this whole time.  The entire notion is asinine.  Maybe my Shepard's a real impressionable dick.  Maybe TIM rubbed off on him.  That doesn't technically mean he's indoctrinated.
What I'm saying is that because there's a choice, there is no Indoctrination Theory.

It's the other way around, It's because of that choice that Indoctrination is so brilliant. Thematically deviating from your original choice to destroy the reaper will utlimately end in indoctrination.

You can say "the TIM rubbed off on him" but when it's in regards to the Reapers - and TIM obviously being indoctrinated - It's a weak excuse.

You're Shep can still be an impressionable dick and pick destroy. In fact more so than any other choice because it's like a giant F U to the catalyst and you kill all synthetic life to do it. But if you mean an impressionable dick in that he lusts for something more then that's a trigger the reapers can play on to indoctrinate you.

[KingZayd]

Helios969 wrote...

The biggest problem with IDT is that the trilogy cannot be resolved with added details and clarity promised for EC. I personally prefer IDT to literal interpretation, but fighting off ID doesn't get Reaper-free skies over Earth.

No, but IT did predict an expansion, where we would see the true end. Oh, we're getting more game this summer?

[Jadebaby]

The Milky Waver wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

The biggest problem with IDT is that the trilogy cannot be resolved with added details and clarity promised for EC. I personally prefer IDT to literal interpretation, but fighting off ID doesn't get Reaper-free skies over Earth.

No, is definitely doesn't, but it at least gives Shepard a chance to do so.

LotSB took 3 months and was the biggest DLC in ME.

Been just over 3 months now, and they have the entire Bioware department working on it. Expect good things.

[KingZayd]

RyanSoup wrote...

j78 wrote...


I thought this was settled ages ago ? The IT people aren’t wrong BW did intend to have a indoctrination ending they just couldn’t get it to work game play wise .  And as for complaints that the game's three endings don't provide enough variety? As late as November, the developers were considering at least one drastically different ending that was eventually scrapped. The sequence would have seen the player lose control of Commander Shepard, revealing that he or she had actually been indoctrinated by the Reapers. This ending was eventually cut for technical reasons, as the team was having a hard time making the gameplay mechanic work alongside dialogue choices. http://www.gameranx....versial-ending/

Here's the thing:  if Shepard has a choice, he's not significantly indoctrinated.  The big implication I'm seeing here is that Shepard can't choose Control for him/herself, because of he/she does, it's because Shepard was indoctrinated this whole time.  The entire notion is asinine.  Maybe my Shepard's a real impressionable dick.  Maybe TIM rubbed off on him.  That doesn't technically mean he's indoctrinated.
What I'm saying is that because there's a choice, there is no Indoctrination Theory.

He's in a dream. The way I see it. Actively REJECTING destruction in favour of other options is what allows the indoctrination to become more significant when Shepard wakes up. Shepard becomes more indoctrinated, because clearly he's not as stubborn as the one that refuses to budge from destroy.

[hexediter]

RyanSoup wrote...

j78 wrote...


I thought this was settled ages ago ? The IT people aren’t wrong BW did intend to have a indoctrination ending they just couldn’t get it to work game play wise .  And as for complaints that the game's three endings don't provide enough variety? As late as November, the developers were considering at least one drastically different ending that was eventually scrapped. The sequence would have seen the player lose control of Commander Shepard, revealing that he or she had actually been indoctrinated by the Reapers. This ending was eventually cut for technical reasons, as the team was having a hard time making the gameplay mechanic work alongside dialogue choices. http://www.gameranx....versial-ending/

Here's the thing:  if Shepard has a choice, he's not significantly indoctrinated.  The big implication I'm seeing here is that Shepard can't choose Control for him/herself, because of he/she does, it's because Shepard was indoctrinated this whole time.  The entire notion is asinine.  Maybe my Shepard's a real impressionable dick.  Maybe TIM rubbed off on him.  That doesn't technically mean he's indoctrinated.
What I'm saying is that because there's a choice, there is no Indoctrination Theory.

You're making assumptions about how indoctrination takes effect on the mind when there is no way to know for sure, and I think you're assumptions are likely incorrect.  I find it more likely that indoctrination trys to frame choice instead of denying it.  If there is no choice then you are a slave which would make you unconvincing to the outside world.  But if you believe the reaper truth, because they have framed the argument in your head in a way in which there truth is the most logical and believable, then you will choose this reality. 

The IT argument to me is that both Tim and ghost child are foreign to shepards mind (reaper plants) and trying to frame the argument of what he should do.  If they frame this by denying choice it would not feel real and this could present the problem of shepard becoming aware of the fact that it is indeed not real.  Let's say for example your shepard has been of the belief that it is his mission to destroy the reapers, and the only way to win this war is to destroy the reapers (admiral hackett would agree!).  If you aren't given the choice to destroy the reapers, what would you do and/or think?  So what do the reapers do instead, the present two more choices, each sounding better then the choice before it.  They also paint destroy as renegade and control as paragon which is compeletely the opposite of how these two are presented in every other part of the game.  They frame the choice so that destroy has the most cons by far (also destroys all synthetics, and oh yea that cycle thing I mentioned is going to happen again and this time the reapers won't be here to save you from the coming robot apocolypse by killing you before you make these deadly robots LOLOL).

[Helios969]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

The Milky Waver wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

The biggest problem with IDT is that the trilogy cannot be resolved with added details and clarity promised for EC. I personally prefer IDT to literal interpretation, but fighting off ID doesn't get Reaper-free skies over Earth.

No, is definitely doesn't, but it at least gives Shepard a chance to do so.

LotSB took 3 months and was the biggest DLC in ME.

Been just over 3 months now, and they have the entire Bioware department working on it. Expect good things.

X-Files: I Want To Believe.  (I just can't bring myself to...)

[RyanSoup]

hexediter wrote...

You're making assumptions about how indoctrination takes effect on the mind when there is no way to know for sure, and I think you're assumptions are likely incorrect.  I find it more likely that indoctrination trys to frame choice instead of denying it.  If there is no choice then you are a slave which would make you unconvincing to the outside world.  But if you believe the reaper truth, because they have framed the argument in your head in a way in which there truth is the most logical and believable, then you will choose this reality. 

Just because your speculation is more subjectively valid does not mean that it is objectively valid, certainly no more than my own.  I think we would all appreciate a little less of this "I'm right and you're wrong, nonsense.  All we're really doing is tossing around ideas and discussing them.  It was meant to be mature and civil.

[Unschuld]

RyanSoup wrote...

I honestly don't think they even had the entire story arc fleshed out until just recently.  Halo did a better job with storytelling, and it's an FPS.

Pretty easy to maintain continuity when the story is completely linear and on rails with zero variables. lol

[llbountyhunter]

 grrrr..... these issues have already been answered many times.... 


here, I even made a thread about it.
http://social.biowar.../index/12547432 



...just trying to help 

[Xenite]

Lord Goose wrote...

You can also say, that Prothean VI from the AthameTemple didn't noticed indoctrination before Kai Leng showed up.

Them TRYING to indoctrinate you is not the same as someone who has already been indoctrinated.

[Arian Dynas]

Helios969 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

The Milky Waver wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

The biggest problem with IDT is that the trilogy cannot be resolved with added details and clarity promised for EC. I personally prefer IDT to literal interpretation, but fighting off ID doesn't get Reaper-free skies over Earth.

No, is definitely doesn't, but it at least gives Shepard a chance to do so.

LotSB took 3 months and was the biggest DLC in ME.

Been just over 3 months now, and they have the entire Bioware department working on it. Expect good things.

X-Files: I Want To Believe.  (I just can't bring myself to...)

And yet he was right.

The truth is out there.

[Allaiya]

hexediter wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

Here's the thing:  if Shepard has a choice, he's not significantly indoctrinated.  The big implication I'm seeing here is that Shepard can't choose Control for him/herself, because of he/she does, it's because Shepard was indoctrinated this whole time.  The entire notion is asinine.  Maybe my Shepard's a real impressionable dick.  Maybe TIM rubbed off on him.  That doesn't technically mean he's indoctrinated.
What I'm saying is that because there's a choice, there is no Indoctrination Theory.

You're making assumptions about how indoctrination takes effect on the mind when there is no way to know for sure, and I think you're assumptions are likely incorrect.  I find it more likely that indoctrination trys to frame choice instead of denying it.  If there is no choice then you are a slave which would make you unconvincing to the outside world.  But if you believe the reaper truth, because they have framed the argument in your head in a way in which there truth is the most logical and believable, then you will choose this reality. 

The IT argument to me is that both Tim and ghost child are foreign to shepards mind (reaper plants) and trying to frame the argument of what he should do.  If they frame this by denying choice it would not feel real and this could present the problem of shepard becoming aware of the fact that it is indeed not real.  Let's say for example your shepard has been of the belief that it is his mission to destroy the reapers, and the only way to win this war is to destroy the reapers (admiral hackett would agree!).  If you aren't given the choice to destroy the reapers, what would you do and/or think?  So what do the reapers do instead, the present two more choices, each sounding better then the choice before it.  They also paint destroy as renegade and control as paragon which is compeletely the opposite of how these two are presented in every other part of the game.  They frame the choice so that destroy has the most cons by far (also destroys all synthetics, and oh yea that cycle thing I mentioned is going to happen again and this time the reapers won't be here to save you from the coming robot apocolypse by killing you before you make these deadly robots LOLOL).

This is also how I have always viewed long-term indoctrination working.
This would explain why the process of it is so subtle and hard to detect.

For rapid
indoctrination, there would be no choice, but then you simply have a husk.

I believe
one of the books kind of points out how the Reapers had to get the person to view
the reapers planted ideas as their own. Otherwise, the person would know what
was happening & not accept them & resist indoctrination.

Once you
willingly accept, knowingly or not, then you would be considered indoctrinated.
Hence, why at the end choosing to join the reapers or control them would
deviate from the original path of 'stop the reapers'. That is how I view it
anyhow.

Modifié par mrfinke, 15 juin 2012 - 02:39 .

[RyanSoup]

Unschuld wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

I honestly don't think they even had the entire story arc fleshed out until just recently.  Halo did a better job with storytelling, and it's an FPS.

Pretty easy to maintain continuity when the story is completely linear and on rails with zero variables. lol

Not the point.  The point is that despite all their media, and the multitude of different games, they managed to keep things relatively canon (excluding a few novels, I think).  They have a whole "bible" for the series.  My point is that they had it all figured out before they released new games.  Bungie has about 6 (soon to be 7) games on the Xbox whereas Mass Effect has 3.  Granted Halo got an earlier start, but that isn't the point.  Bungie knew what they wanted to do, and they did it.

[RyanSoup]

Xenite wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

You can also say, that Prothean VI from the AthameTemple didn't noticed indoctrination before Kai Leng showed up.

Them TRYING to indoctrinate you is not the same as someone who has already been indoctrinated.

How? You can make these claims all you want, but be ready to back them up with factual/logical info