233 réponses à ce sujet

[Andromidius]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

By that logic, ME1 and ME2 aren't canon either.

Infact, Arrival IS canon.  Its mention in the comics, which have been confirmed to be canon.  The only DLC which is, as far as I can tell.

RyanSoup wrote...

Xenite wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

You can also say, that Prothean VI from the AthameTemple didn't noticed indoctrination before Kai Leng showed up.

Them TRYING to indoctrinate you is not the same as someone who has already been indoctrinated.

How? You can make these claims all you want, but be ready to back them up with factual/logical info

Its the same way 'dying' and 'dead' are two different things.

Modifié par Andromidius, 15 juin 2012 - 06:10 .

[dreman9999]

Here's your problem with you so called flaw. We don't know how long it takes ofindoctriantion to get started nor do we have and cased out side of implantation to show when it starts. Most case of indoctrination are found out well after it even started. It's subtle, leaving most people to who have it unaware of it. You can't say that the time spent with reaper Tech Shepard has is not enough because we don't no how much time it takes. Shepard has been near the effect of the waves since ME1,from eden prime, so he had 3 year of on and of contact with reaper tech. And no matter how you cut it, when TIm controls Anderson and Shepard everysyntom of indoctrination pops up. If your asking when it happen, you first must understand that no slow indoctriantion victum knows when.

[dreman9999]

RyanSoup wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

During those conversations, Shepard's mind could have
easily been bombarded with indoctrination attempts, and
very powerful ones at that.

I think you demonize indoctrination too much.
If Reapers could indoctrinate anybody just by talking to hm, fighting against them would be impossible.
It took 504 hours of direct contact with Reaper implants to subdue Paul Grayson, and Shepard spent muuuch less time in contact with all the Reapers.

Shiala can hear the voices of the reapers without them being right in front of her. This suggests the effects of indoctrination don't require you to be standing right in front of one once it's started.

That doesn't mean that it's still progressing.  Indoctrination may be cumulative

That's the same thing. Indoctrination does go away. It can be stack on it's self.

[thehomeworld]

I don't believe in the whole IT however that being said EDI had reaper tech used in her creation so actually depending on what they used ( and only TIM knows the specifics) EDI could've been indoctrinating everyone all the time.

Since shep died one can also say TIM extended the reaper tech over to shep's cybernetics too we have no solid proof of this other then his team mates unwavering and obsessive loyalty to the likes of jerk shep but it would be in character for TIM if he had reaper tech left over from building the Normandy he would also toss that into shep as well.

There is also documented evidence in the past games that reapers can accelerate indoctrination and instead of it taking 1 - 2 weeks they can do it in as little as 3 days but shep being hit by a laser doesn't have 3 days to lay there and bleed out neither does the galaxy as a whole have 3 days to fight the reapers head on and survive. Another issue with the 3 day fast indoctrination is you end up with a zombie husk not a high level thrall like Benezia or Saren to get high level which Harbi seems to really want from shep you must indoctrinate over a 2 week period.

I also personally hate the IT theory for many reasons including their story implications like:

if shep is indoctrinated no matter what players want they help the reapers.

If shep fights off indoctrination and breathes at the end of the game he's going to die shortly there after and sense shep never made it to the citadel and never did anything to get the dues ex machine up and running the reapers have already shut down all the relays and are now slaughtering all the forces you brought with you to get back Earth and will now take their time in harvesting the rest of the galaxy go hero shep.

All of the above scenarios are even worse compared to the ending copy/paste we got and I'd rather stick to said copy/paste then get crap like that.

[dreman9999]

RyanSoup wrote...

j78 wrote...


I thought this was settled ages ago ? The IT people aren’t wrong BW did intend to have a indoctrination ending they just couldn’t get it to work game play wise .  And as for complaints that the game's three endings don't provide enough variety? As late as November, the developers were considering at least one drastically different ending that was eventually scrapped. The sequence would have seen the player lose control of Commander Shepard, revealing that he or she had actually been indoctrinated by the Reapers. This ending was eventually cut for technical reasons, as the team was having a hard time making the gameplay mechanic work alongside dialogue choices. http://www.gameranx....versial-ending/

Here's the thing:  if Shepard has a choice, he's not significantly indoctrinated.  The big implication I'm seeing here is that Shepard can't choose Control for him/herself, because of he/she does, it's because Shepard was indoctrinated this whole time.  The entire notion is asinine.  Maybe my Shepard's a real impressionable dick.  Maybe TIM rubbed off on him.  That doesn't technically mean he's indoctrinated.
What I'm saying is that because there's a choice, there is no Indoctrination Theory.

I'll clearify it for you.
The reapers are trying to influence your desision...That's the indoctriantion attempt.
But you can still resist, that's not picking the other suggested choices.
Agreeing with the suggested choice changes your morality and ideals...AKA stop the reapers..
Or warps your morality...aka get peace as quickly as possible even if it means killing.

The idea is you can resist or listen to the suggentions. If you can still do that your not fully indoctrianted. But once you obay the suggentions, you are.

[dreman9999]

thehomeworld wrote...

I don't believe in the whole IT however that being said EDI had reaper tech used in her creation so actually depending on what they used ( and only TIM knows the specifics) EDI could've been indoctrinating everyone all the time.

Since shep died one can also say TIM extended the reaper tech over to shep's cybernetics too we have no solid proof of this other then his team mates unwavering and obsessive loyalty to the likes of jerk shep but it would be in character for TIM if he had reaper tech left over from building the Normandy he would also toss that into shep as well.

There is also documented evidence in the past games that reapers can accelerate indoctrination and instead of it taking 1 - 2 weeks they can do it in as little as 3 days but shep being hit by a laser doesn't have 3 days to lay there and bleed out neither does the galaxy as a whole have 3 days to fight the reapers head on and survive. Another issue with the 3 day fast indoctrination is you end up with a zombie husk not a high level thrall like Benezia or Saren to get high level which Harbi seems to really want from shep you must indoctrinate over a 2 week period.

I also personally hate the IT theory for many reasons including their story implications like:

if shep is indoctrinated no matter what players want they help the reapers.

If shep fights off indoctrination and breathes at the end of the game he's going to die shortly there after and sense shep never made it to the citadel and never did anything to get the dues ex machine up and running the reapers have already shut down all the relays and are now slaughtering all the forces you brought with you to get back Earth and will now take their time in harvesting the rest of the galaxy go hero shep.

All of the above scenarios are even worse compared to the ending copy/paste we got and I'd rather stick to said copy/paste then get crap like that.

1. If EDI did, we would of lost the war a long time ago. She has the info on everything the allied forces has. 
2.Your still missing the fact that TIM is controling Anderson ,too.
3.THat how story like this go. There are thing that alays happen to every player. If you think this is an invation of your choice, then it's doing its job...That's what indoctrination does.
4. Wait till EC to even start with understanding the breath scene.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 06:58 .

[RyanSoup]

dreman9999 wrote...

Here's your problem with you so called flaw. We don't know how long it takes ofindoctriantion to get started nor do we have and cased out side of implantation to show when it starts. Most case of indoctrination are found out well after it even started. It's subtle, leaving most people to who have it unaware of it. You can't say that the time spent with reaper Tech Shepard has is not enough because we don't no how much time it takes. Shepard has been near the effect of the waves since ME1,from eden prime, so he had 3 year of on and of contact with reaper tech. And no matter how you cut it, when TIm controls Anderson and Shepard everysyntom of indoctrination pops up. If your asking when it happen, you first must understand that no slow indoctriantion victum knows when.

Rapid indoctrination of humans requires either implants or Dragon's Teeth.  Saren confirms that implants are needed to keep the thrall from resisting long-term indoctrination.  The Illusive man also has these implants, beginning with his eyes.  Unless Shepard got launched into the air and impaled on a Dragon's tooth, he couldn't have become indoctrinated that extensively, that quickly

[dreman9999]

RyanSoup wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Here's your problem with you so called flaw. We don't know how long it takes ofindoctriantion to get started nor do we have and cased out side of implantation to show when it starts. Most case of indoctrination are found out well after it even started. It's subtle, leaving most people to who have it unaware of it. You can't say that the time spent with reaper Tech Shepard has is not enough because we don't no how much time it takes. Shepard has been near the effect of the waves since ME1,from eden prime, so he had 3 year of on and of contact with reaper tech. And no matter how you cut it, when TIm controls Anderson and Shepard everysyntom of indoctrination pops up. If your asking when it happen, you first must understand that no slow indoctriantion victum knows when.

Rapid indoctrination of humans requires either implants or Dragon's Teeth.  Saren confirms that implants are needed to keep the thrall from resisting long-term indoctrination.  The Illusive man also has these implants, beginning with his eyes.  Unless Shepard got launched into the air and impaled on a Dragon's tooth, he couldn't have become indoctrinated that extensively, that quickly

Shepard's case is slow indoctrination...3 years of on and of contact with reaper tech since eden prIme in ME1. The start of the indoctriantion prosses started from ME1.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 07:29 .

[zambot]

Andromidius wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

By that logic, ME1 and ME2 aren't canon either.

No, that's not quite true.  If you never played ME1 or ME2, the game tells you what transpired from ME1 and ME2, such as Wrex dying or the collector base being destroyed.  Something that is canon is Shepard being rebuilt by Cerebus.  This happens regardless of whether you played ME2.  

Arrival DLC, if it were canon, would not be resolved by Hackett sending commandos to do the job.  You would have seen a blurb about Shepard doing this mission when you play through ME3 regardless of whether you actually played it.  

[Peranor]

 
Can't we all just stop analyzing the Indoctrination Theory please?

There are other, far more interesting theories out there that we could talk about instead.

Like the far more believable Incompetence Theory, or even the Intoxication Theory.
I've even heard about the Magic Mushroom Theory.

Modifié par anorling, 15 juin 2012 - 07:34 .

[dreman9999]

anorling wrote...




 
Can't we all just stop analyzing the Indoctrination Theory please?

There are other, far more interesting theories out there that we could talk about instead.

Like the far more believable Incompetence Theory, or even the Intoxication Theory.
I've even heard about the Magic Mushroom Theory.

Then you don't even understand that fact that those theories are bogus. If you don't want to discuss IT, don't post it the topic. Especially ifyou got wax in your ears.

[Peranor]

dreman9999 wrote...

anorling wrote...




 
Can't we all just stop analyzing the Indoctrination Theory please?

There are other, far more interesting theories out there that we could talk about instead.

Like the far more believable Incompetence Theory, or even the Intoxication Theory.
I've even heard about the Magic Mushroom Theory.

Then you don't even understand that fact that those theories are bogus. If you don't want to discuss IT, don't post it the topic. Especially ifyou got wax in your ears.

It's just that there are three hundred nine million,fifty-eight thousand, three hundred four IT threads already. Did we need another one?

And I would argue that the Incompetence Theory and the Indoctrination Theory is equally believable.

[MadRabbit999]

OP you got it wrong just like 90% of the people here.

IT is not about Shepard having hallucinations, but about Shepard being unconscious and having this stuff happening all in his sleep.

Hallucinations are a symptom you get when you are awake.

There is a massive difference.... if Sheaprd was having hallucinations the IT could not work, because it bases itself on Shepard waking up in London, so if he was hallucinating, then he would have gone on the Citadel and could not have woken in London.

Not your fault though.. I told the OP of the IT threat a million times to change the title, but some people got their heads too far up their ass to listen...

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 15 juin 2012 - 08:27 .

[dreman9999]

anorling wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

anorling wrote...




 
Can't we all just stop analyzing the Indoctrination Theory please?

There are other, far more interesting theories out there that we could talk about instead.

Like the far more believable Incompetence Theory, or even the Intoxication Theory.
I've even heard about the Magic Mushroom Theory.

Then you don't even understand that fact that those theories are bogus. If you don't want to discuss IT, don't post it the topic. Especially ifyou got wax in your ears.

It's just that there are three hundred nine million,fifty-eight thousand, three hundred four IT threads already. Did we need another one?

And I would argue that the Incompetence Theory and the Indoctrination Theory is equally believable.

1. There hasn't been an indoctriantion thread for a goo while...I looked.
2.Those theories the moment you ask for proof and point out that the players Shepard doesn't drink.

[dreman9999]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

OP you got it wrong just like 90% of the people here.

IT is not about Shepard having hallucinations, but about Shepard being unconscious and having this stuff happening all in his sleep.

Hallucinations are a symptom you get when you are awake.

There is a massive difference.... if Sheaprd was having hallucinations the IT could not work, because it bases itself on Shepard waking up in London, so if he was hallucinating, then he would have gone on the Citadel and could not have woken in London.

Not your fault though.. I told the OP of the IT threat a million times to change the title, but some people got their heads too far up their ass to listen...

Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 
....He can be hallucinating. That's on of the IT theories.

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

OP you got it wrong just like 90% of the people here.

IT is not about Shepard having hallucinations, but about Shepard being unconscious and having this stuff happening all in his sleep.

Hallucinations are a symptom you get when you are awake.

There is a massive difference.... if Sheaprd was having hallucinations the IT could not work, because it bases itself on Shepard waking up in London, so if he was hallucinating, then he would have gone on the Citadel and could not have woken in London.

Not your fault though.. I told the OP of the IT threat a million times to change the title, but some people got their heads too far up their ass to listen...

Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 
....He can be hallucinating. That's on of the IT theories.

And again with that, dreman shows that he doesn't care about evidence as long as IT is true...

[SubAstris]

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

So the Reapers' priority is death for Shepard, not indoctrination of him?

At this point in time? yes. Harby tried to indoctrinate Shepard earlier, but unfortunately for poor Harby, Shepard's still fighting the Reapers. Stopping anyone from entering the Citadel is a priority. More important than having a Shepard toy.

So they try to indoctrinate him, give up, try and kill him instead, fail, and then try indoctrination again? Seems awfully convaluted, you would expect the Reapers to stick to their guns. Why not try and indoctrinate him just before they get to the beam? Like at shuttle crash

No. I think the indoctrination works passively. The reapers have no knowledge of Shiala, or the Cerberus troops TIM had implanted months before the Reapers' entrance into the galaxy. Yet, they hear the voices. Seems to me that the process happens automatically, and over time changes you and makes you find a reason to first stop trying to destroy the reapers (or see them as problem) and eventually make you want to help them. Just the same way, Harbinger has to reason to suspect Shepard is alive, but the indoctrination in his mind can worsen.

So you are implying that Reapers don't actively find indoctrination targets? But what about all the stuff in ME2 said by Haringer, focussing on Shepard? Surely that was getting to something...

It seems from the game that they target specific groups, which goes against yoru assertion that it is passive. Not to mention the bigger problems passive indoctrination would have compared to an active kind

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

OP you got it wrong just like 90% of the people here.

IT is not about Shepard having hallucinations, but about Shepard being unconscious and having this stuff happening all in his sleep.

Hallucinations are a symptom you get when you are awake.

There is a massive difference.... if Sheaprd was having hallucinations the IT could not work, because it bases itself on Shepard waking up in London, so if he was hallucinating, then he would have gone on the Citadel and could not have woken in London.

Not your fault though.. I told the OP of the IT threat a million times to change the title, but some people got their heads too far up their ass to listen...

Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 
....He can be hallucinating. That's on of the IT theories.

And again with that, dreman shows that he doesn't care about evidence as long as IT is true...

They all use the same evidence. How does this show that it ignores the evidence? We don't even know if Shepard is awake or not.

[Carlthestrange]

Prothean Indoctrination scanner is broke. *Nod*

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

So the Reapers' priority is death for Shepard, not indoctrination of him?

At this point in time? yes. Harby tried to indoctrinate Shepard earlier, but unfortunately for poor Harby, Shepard's still fighting the Reapers. Stopping anyone from entering the Citadel is a priority. More important than having a Shepard toy.

So they try to indoctrinate him, give up, try and kill him instead, fail, and then try indoctrination again? Seems awfully convaluted, you would expect the Reapers to stick to their guns. Why not try and indoctrinate him just before they get to the beam? Like at shuttle crash

No. I think the indoctrination works passively. The reapers have no knowledge of Shiala, or the Cerberus troops TIM had implanted months before the Reapers' entrance into the galaxy. Yet, they hear the voices. Seems to me that the process happens automatically, and over time changes you and makes you find a reason to first stop trying to destroy the reapers (or see them as problem) and eventually make you want to help them. Just the same way, Harbinger has to reason to suspect Shepard is alive, but the indoctrination in his mind can worsen.

So you are implying that Reapers don't actively find indoctrination targets? But what about all the stuff in ME2 said by Haringer, focussing on Shepard? Surely that was getting to something...

It seems from the game that they target specific groups, which goes against yoru assertion that it is passive. Not to mention the bigger problems passive indoctrination would have compared to an active kind

Nothing he said even suggested that the reapers don't focus on single targets or groups. You point is pointless.

[KingZayd]

Andromidius wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

By that logic, ME1 and ME2 aren't canon either.

Infact, Arrival IS canon.  Its mention in the comics, which have been confirmed to be canon.  The only DLC which is, as far as I can tell.

RyanSoup wrote...

Xenite wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

You can also say, that Prothean VI from the AthameTemple didn't noticed indoctrination before Kai Leng showed up.

Them TRYING to indoctrinate you is not the same as someone who has already been indoctrinated.

How? You can make these claims all you want, but be ready to back them up with factual/logical info

Its the same way 'dying' and 'dead' are two different things.

You can't be "a little bit dead", you can be "a little bit indoctrinated"

[KingZayd]

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

So the Reapers' priority is death for Shepard, not indoctrination of him?

At this point in time? yes. Harby tried to indoctrinate Shepard earlier, but unfortunately for poor Harby, Shepard's still fighting the Reapers. Stopping anyone from entering the Citadel is a priority. More important than having a Shepard toy.

So they try to indoctrinate him, give up, try and kill him instead, fail, and then try indoctrination again? Seems awfully convaluted, you would expect the Reapers to stick to their guns. Why not try and indoctrinate him just before they get to the beam? Like at shuttle crash

No. I think the indoctrination works passively. The reapers have no knowledge of Shiala, or the Cerberus troops TIM had implanted months before the Reapers' entrance into the galaxy. Yet, they hear the voices. Seems to me that the process happens automatically, and over time changes you and makes you find a reason to first stop trying to destroy the reapers (or see them as problem) and eventually make you want to help them. Just the same way, Harbinger has to reason to suspect Shepard is alive, but the indoctrination in his mind can worsen.

So you are implying that Reapers don't actively find indoctrination targets? But what about all the stuff in ME2 said by Haringer, focussing on Shepard? Surely that was getting to something...

It seems from the game that they target specific groups, which goes against yoru assertion that it is passive. Not to mention the bigger problems passive indoctrination would have compared to an active kind

Once the process has started, it continues automatically. Sure, Reapers can focus on targets, but they don't have to actively increase indoctrination once it's started. It just happens automatically. Which is why Shiala and the Cerberus troops hear the voices automatically. It's probably what happens with Rana Thanoptis (who was not crazy the last time you met her). That said, we don't even know if the reapers HAVE to choose to start indoctrinating someone, or if it's just something they emanate at all times.

Modifié par KingZayd, 15 juin 2012 - 11:36 .

[dreman9999]

Carlthestrange wrote...

Prothean Indoctrination scanner is broke. *Nod*

It didn't work well for Javiks project with Victory ..

[Carlthestrange]

dreman9999 wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

Prothean Indoctrination scanner is broke. *Nod*

It didn't work well for Javiks project with Victory ..

How do you even "Detect" indoctrination anyway? I could imagine unstable brain patterns, but what about subtle indoctrination? I doubt its that detectable.

[Helios969]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

The Milky Waver wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

The biggest problem with IDT is that the trilogy cannot be resolved with added details and clarity promised for EC. I personally prefer IDT to literal interpretation, but fighting off ID doesn't get Reaper-free skies over Earth.

No, is definitely doesn't, but it at least gives Shepard a chance to do so.

LotSB took 3 months and was the biggest DLC in ME.

Been just over 3 months now, and they have the entire Bioware department working on it. Expect good things.

X-Files: I Want To Believe.  (I just can't bring myself to...)

And yet he was right.

The truth is out there.

Yeah, but whose truth?