233 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Carlthestrange wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

Prothean Indoctrination scanner is broke. *Nod*

It didn't work well for Javiks project with Victory ..

How do you even "Detect" indoctrination anyway? I could imagine unstable brain patterns, but what about subtle indoctrination? I doubt its that detectable.

It is.It changes the thinking pattern via limbic system. Scanning that would find advice indoctriantion.

[Carlthestrange]

dreman9999 wrote...
It is.It changes the thinking pattern via limbic system. Scanning that would find advice indoctriantion.

I see. Well to solve that during the war, just have all soldiers submit to compulsary brain scans.

[KingZayd]

RyanSoup wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Here's your problem with you so called flaw. We don't know how long it takes ofindoctriantion to get started nor do we have and cased out side of implantation to show when it starts. Most case of indoctrination are found out well after it even started. It's subtle, leaving most people to who have it unaware of it. You can't say that the time spent with reaper Tech Shepard has is not enough because we don't no how much time it takes. Shepard has been near the effect of the waves since ME1,from eden prime, so he had 3 year of on and of contact with reaper tech. And no matter how you cut it, when TIm controls Anderson and Shepard everysyntom of indoctrination pops up. If your asking when it happen, you first must understand that no slow indoctriantion victum knows when.

Rapid indoctrination of humans requires either implants or Dragon's Teeth.  Saren confirms that implants are needed to keep the thrall from resisting long-term indoctrination.  The Illusive man also has these implants, beginning with his eyes.  Unless Shepard got launched into the air and impaled on a Dragon's tooth, he couldn't have become indoctrinated that extensively, that quickly

Saren needed the implants only BECAUSE we told him he was indoctrinated. Nobody's told Shepard that he's indoctrinated. Also that extensively? He's only considering not destroying the reapers, he's not offering to kill the puny organics for them. He's not hallucinating.. he's dreaming because he got knocked out by a massive laser. People tend to dream when they're unconscious.

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

OP you got it wrong just like 90% of the people here.

IT is not about Shepard having hallucinations, but about Shepard being unconscious and having this stuff happening all in his sleep.

Hallucinations are a symptom you get when you are awake.

There is a massive difference.... if Sheaprd was having hallucinations the IT could not work, because it bases itself on Shepard waking up in London, so if he was hallucinating, then he would have gone on the Citadel and could not have woken in London.

Not your fault though.. I told the OP of the IT threat a million times to change the title, but some people got their heads too far up their ass to listen...

Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 
....He can be hallucinating. That's on of the IT theories.

And again with that, dreman shows that he doesn't care about evidence as long as IT is true...

They all use the same evidence. How does this show that it ignores the evidence? We don't even know if Shepard is awake or not.

If all IT theories you expound are equally supported by the evidence, then that shows, as I have explained many times before, a massive flaw in BW's ability to tell a coherent story.

[KingZayd]

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

OP you got it wrong just like 90% of the people here.

IT is not about Shepard having hallucinations, but about Shepard being unconscious and having this stuff happening all in his sleep.

Hallucinations are a symptom you get when you are awake.

There is a massive difference.... if Sheaprd was having hallucinations the IT could not work, because it bases itself on Shepard waking up in London, so if he was hallucinating, then he would have gone on the Citadel and could not have woken in London.

Not your fault though.. I told the OP of the IT threat a million times to change the title, but some people got their heads too far up their ass to listen...

Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 
....He can be hallucinating. That's on of the IT theories.

And again with that, dreman shows that he doesn't care about evidence as long as IT is true...

They all use the same evidence. How does this show that it ignores the evidence? We don't even know if Shepard is awake or not.

If all IT theories you expound are equally supported by the evidence, then that shows, as I have explained many times before, a massive flaw in BW's ability to tell a coherent story.

For the record, I believe Shepard is unconscious. It's the only one that really makes sense to me.

[Scam_poo]

Shepard never faced Harbinger in "person" before.

Harbinger is the one indoctrinating Shepard in the ending. I don't know if you know Harbinger, but he's the first Reaper, and thus the only one being capable of indoctrinating Shepard.

[Peranor]

dreman9999 wrote...

anorling wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

anorling wrote...




 
Can't we all just stop analyzing the Indoctrination Theory please?

There are other, far more interesting theories out there that we could talk about instead.

Like the far more believable Incompetence Theory, or even the Intoxication Theory.
I've even heard about the Magic Mushroom Theory.

Then you don't even understand that fact that those theories are bogus. If you don't want to discuss IT, don't post it the topic. Especially ifyou got wax in your ears.

It's just that there are three hundred nine million,fifty-eight thousand, three hundred four IT threads already. Did we need another one?

And I would argue that the Incompetence Theory and the Indoctrination Theory is equally believable.

1. There hasn't been an indoctriantion thread for a goo while...I looked.
2.Those theories the moment you ask for proof and point out that the players Shepard doesn't drink.

1. The threads are still there for you to use. Just pick a fairly new IT thread and continue on that one.
     But that comment wasn't directed to you anyway. It was to the OP.
2. I said Incompetence Theory (as in incompetent writing), not Intoxication Theory

[SubAstris]

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

OP you got it wrong just like 90% of the people here.

IT is not about Shepard having hallucinations, but about Shepard being unconscious and having this stuff happening all in his sleep.

Hallucinations are a symptom you get when you are awake.

There is a massive difference.... if Sheaprd was having hallucinations the IT could not work, because it bases itself on Shepard waking up in London, so if he was hallucinating, then he would have gone on the Citadel and could not have woken in London.

Not your fault though.. I told the OP of the IT threat a million times to change the title, but some people got their heads too far up their ass to listen...

Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 
....He can be hallucinating. That's on of the IT theories.

And again with that, dreman shows that he doesn't care about evidence as long as IT is true...

They all use the same evidence. How does this show that it ignores the evidence? We don't even know if Shepard is awake or not.

If all IT theories you expound are equally supported by the evidence, then that shows, as I have explained many times before, a massive flaw in BW's ability to tell a coherent story.

For the record, I believe Shepard is unconscious. It's the only one that really makes sense to me.

Cool. I don't mind people sticking by their guns and supporting different parts IT, but I think what is dishonest is just wanting IT to be true almost totally disregarding what BW actually intended us to see (btw just making it clear that last comment wasn't directed at you)

[SubAstris]

Scam_poo wrote...

Shepard never faced Harbinger in "person" before.

Harbinger is the one indoctrinating Shepard in the ending. I don't know if you know Harbinger, but he's the first Reaper, and thus the only one being capable of indoctrinating Shepard.

It is said to be the first and oldest Reaper, although this is not verified. But how does this alone meant he is the only one with the potential to indoctrinate Shepard? Is this established in-game?

[KingZayd]

SubAstris wrote...

Scam_poo wrote...

Shepard never faced Harbinger in "person" before.

Harbinger is the one indoctrinating Shepard in the ending. I don't know if you know Harbinger, but he's the first Reaper, and thus the only one being capable of indoctrinating Shepard.

It is said to be the first and oldest Reaper, although this is not verified. But how does this alone meant he is the only one with the potential to indoctrinate Shepard? Is this established in-game?

Is he said to the first? I know he's said to be the oldest?

[KingZayd]

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

OP you got it wrong just like 90% of the people here.

IT is not about Shepard having hallucinations, but about Shepard being unconscious and having this stuff happening all in his sleep.

Hallucinations are a symptom you get when you are awake.

There is a massive difference.... if Sheaprd was having hallucinations the IT could not work, because it bases itself on Shepard waking up in London, so if he was hallucinating, then he would have gone on the Citadel and could not have woken in London.

Not your fault though.. I told the OP of the IT threat a million times to change the title, but some people got their heads too far up their ass to listen...

Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 
....He can be hallucinating. That's on of the IT theories.

And again with that, dreman shows that he doesn't care about evidence as long as IT is true...

They all use the same evidence. How does this show that it ignores the evidence? We don't even know if Shepard is awake or not.

If all IT theories you expound are equally supported by the evidence, then that shows, as I have explained many times before, a massive flaw in BW's ability to tell a coherent story.

For the record, I believe Shepard is unconscious. It's the only one that really makes sense to me.

Cool. I don't mind people sticking by their guns and supporting different parts IT, but I think what is dishonest is just wanting IT to be true almost totally disregarding what BW actually intended us to see (btw just making it clear that last comment wasn't directed at you)

yeah, for me being shot at by harbinger makes for a good transition point into the dream world. What happens next to me seems to be far too surreal for it to be true (even for it to be accidental). I don't think the ones where Shepard is awake take the breath scene into account which I'm sure is what led people to first suspect that it wasn't real (in the Mass Effect universe that is... everyone knows it's a game)

[RyanSoup]

KingZayd wrote...

Saren needed the implants only BECAUSE we told him he was indoctrinated. Nobody's told Shepard that he's indoctrinated. Also that extensively? He's only considering not destroying the reapers, he's not offering to kill the puny organics for them. He's not hallucinating.. he's dreaming because he got knocked out by a massive laser. People tend to dream when they're unconscious.

That's not true.  Saren said that he thought the facility on Vermire would keep him safe from indoctrination, which implies that  he was well aware of it

[RyanSoup]

Scam_poo wrote...

Shepard never faced Harbinger in "person" before.

Harbinger is the one indoctrinating Shepard in the ending. I don't know if you know Harbinger, but he's the first Reaper, and thus the only one being capable of indoctrinating Shepard.

So because Harbinger is the oldest, he has a better chance of indoctrinating people?  That makes no sense.

[thefallen2far]

Again....... whether or not Arrival happened or not, but it should have happened becaue you were court martialed and blamed for destroying the Batarians..... you still died and were remade from Cerberus technology. TiM isolated himself from anyone and had Reaper technology in his body and went through Indoctrination, so if you're remade with the same technology, you're equally exposed.

As to why it was so slow, you're asking for a quantitative estimate. There is no way to quantitate manipulation, it's behavior psychology not a laboratry science. You go by effects, when did she/he start acting "Indoctrinated"? It only became directly noticeable towards the end. The Virmire AI probably couldn't read it at that time because he wasn't indoctrinated at that time.

[KingZayd]

RyanSoup wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Saren needed the implants only BECAUSE we told him he was indoctrinated. Nobody's told Shepard that he's indoctrinated. Also that extensively? He's only considering not destroying the reapers, he's not offering to kill the puny organics for them. He's not hallucinating.. he's dreaming because he got knocked out by a massive laser. People tend to dream when they're unconscious.

That's not true.  Saren said that he thought the facility on Vermire would keep him safe from indoctrination, which implies that  he was well aware of it

He was aware of indoctrination, but thought that Sovereign wasn't using it because then Saren would be in tip-top shape mentally and therefore more useful. He was wrong.

The facility was to study the indoctrination, so that he could protect himself in the long term.

Modifié par KingZayd, 16 juin 2012 - 12:06 .

[KingZayd]

thefallen2far wrote...

Again....... whether or not Arrival happened or not, but it should have happened becaue you were court martialed and blamed for destroying the Batarians..... you still died and were remade from Cerberus technology. TiM isolated himself from anyone and had Reaper technology in his body and went through Indoctrination, so if you're remade with the same technology, you're equally exposed.

As to why it was so slow, you're asking for a quantitative estimate. There is no way to quantitate manipulation, it's behavior psychology not a laboratry science. You go by effects, when did she/he start acting "Indoctrinated"? It only became directly noticeable towards the end. The Virmire AI probably couldn't read it at that time because he wasn't indoctrinated at that time.

It's suggested that Shepard's reconstruction was deliberately kept "pure". Probably because TIM was well aware of indoctrination and the dangers, and at that point in time, certainly considered Shepard to be the humanity's greatest hope.

[KevShep]

KingZayd wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Saren needed the implants only BECAUSE we told him he was indoctrinated. Nobody's told Shepard that he's indoctrinated. Also that extensively? He's only considering not destroying the reapers, he's not offering to kill the puny organics for them. He's not hallucinating.. he's dreaming because he got knocked out by a massive laser. People tend to dream when they're unconscious.

That's not true.  Saren said that he thought the facility on Vermire would keep him safe from indoctrination, which implies that  he was well aware of it

He was aware of indoctrination, but thought that Sovereign wasn't using it because then Saren would be in tip-top shape mentally and therefore more useful. He was wrong.

reaper indoctrination implants is the ONLY way that indoctrination is impossible to resist( ME1 saren starts to resist at the end and then says that his implants are MAKING him obey the reapers). 

Indoctrination must be possible to resist if they need to use implants.

Saren WAS resisting but was stopped by the implants even thought he was ALREADY indoctrinated.

[KingZayd]

KevShep wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Saren needed the implants only BECAUSE we told him he was indoctrinated. Nobody's told Shepard that he's indoctrinated. Also that extensively? He's only considering not destroying the reapers, he's not offering to kill the puny organics for them. He's not hallucinating.. he's dreaming because he got knocked out by a massive laser. People tend to dream when they're unconscious.

That's not true.  Saren said that he thought the facility on Vermire would keep him safe from indoctrination, which implies that  he was well aware of it

He was aware of indoctrination, but thought that Sovereign wasn't using it because then Saren would be in tip-top shape mentally and therefore more useful. He was wrong.

reaper indoctrination implants is the ONLY way that indoctrination is impossible to resist( ME1 saren starts to resist at the end and then says that his implants are MAKING him obey the reapers). 

Indoctrination must be possible to resist if they need to use implants.

Saren WAS resisting but was stopped by the implants even thought he was ALREADY indoctrinated.

The implants amplify indoctrination, and make control easier. Saren was more indoctrinated on the Citadel as a result. Saren did resist with the implants.. shortly before blowing his brains out.

Saren was so heavily implanted, that Sovereign was basically able to remote control Saren's implanted skeleton even after he was dead.

Modifié par KingZayd, 16 juin 2012 - 12:17 .

[KevShep]

KingZayd wrote...

KevShep wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Saren needed the implants only BECAUSE we told him he was indoctrinated. Nobody's told Shepard that he's indoctrinated. Also that extensively? He's only considering not destroying the reapers, he's not offering to kill the puny organics for them. He's not hallucinating.. he's dreaming because he got knocked out by a massive laser. People tend to dream when they're unconscious.

That's not true.  Saren said that he thought the facility on Vermire would keep him safe from indoctrination, which implies that  he was well aware of it

He was aware of indoctrination, but thought that Sovereign wasn't using it because then Saren would be in tip-top shape mentally and therefore more useful. He was wrong.

reaper indoctrination implants is the ONLY way that indoctrination is impossible to resist( ME1 saren starts to resist at the end and then says that his implants are MAKING him obey the reapers). 

Indoctrination must be possible to resist if they need to use implants.

Saren WAS resisting but was stopped by the implants even thought he was ALREADY indoctrinated.

The implants amplify indoctrination, and make control easier. Saren was more indoctrinated on the Citadel as a result. Saren did resist with the implants.. shortly before blowing his brains out.

Saren was so heavily implanted, that Sovereign was basically able to remote control Saren's implanted skeleton even after he was dead.

Implants means direct control...The reapers do NOT control your thoughts. The reapers use the limbic system to feed you suggestions...this is how they can manipulate a person without direct control.

direct control means that the person is no longer themselves anymore. Saren was indoctrinated along time ago, He spent more then enough time in Sovereign to be listining to there suggestions as it is.

A fully indoctrinated person is a husk basicaly. They no longer make there own judgements as they are now completely listening to the reapers suggestions(case in point is Ki Lang). This makes them poor agents and causes there mind to fall apart quicker.

Saren was not thinking for himself when he was trying to find the conduit meaning that he was listening to sovereign completely. This suggests that hes was fully indoctrinated by the time he was on the citadel but it was the implants that stopped him from resisting.

Modifié par KevShep, 16 juin 2012 - 12:36 .

[KingZayd]

KevShep wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KevShep wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Saren needed the implants only BECAUSE we told him he was indoctrinated. Nobody's told Shepard that he's indoctrinated. Also that extensively? He's only considering not destroying the reapers, he's not offering to kill the puny organics for them. He's not hallucinating.. he's dreaming because he got knocked out by a massive laser. People tend to dream when they're unconscious.

That's not true.  Saren said that he thought the facility on Vermire would keep him safe from indoctrination, which implies that  he was well aware of it

He was aware of indoctrination, but thought that Sovereign wasn't using it because then Saren would be in tip-top shape mentally and therefore more useful. He was wrong.

reaper indoctrination implants is the ONLY way that indoctrination is impossible to resist( ME1 saren starts to resist at the end and then says that his implants are MAKING him obey the reapers). 

Indoctrination must be possible to resist if they need to use implants.

Saren WAS resisting but was stopped by the implants even thought he was ALREADY indoctrinated.

The implants amplify indoctrination, and make control easier. Saren was more indoctrinated on the Citadel as a result. Saren did resist with the implants.. shortly before blowing his brains out.

Saren was so heavily implanted, that Sovereign was basically able to remote control Saren's implanted skeleton even after he was dead.

Implants means direct control...The reapers do NOT control your thoughts. The reapers use the limbic system to feed you suggestions...this is how they can manipulate a person without direct control.

direct control means that the person is no longer themselves anymore. Saren was indoctrinated along time ago, He spent more then enough time in Sovereign to be listining to there suggestions as it is.

A fully indoctrinated person is a husk basicaly. They no longer make there own judgements as they are now completely listening to the reapers suggestions(case in point is Ki Lang). This makes them poor agents and causes there mind to fall apart quicker.

Saren was not thinging for himself when he was trying to find the conduit meaning that he was listening to sovereign completely. This suggests that hes was fully indoctrinated by the time he was on the citadel but it was the implants that stopped him from resisting.

Cerberus troops were implanted first. They could hear Reaper voices. They were not immediately controlled by the Reapers.

Saren was very much indoctrinated at the very end, but he was not fully indoctrinated. As you say, fully indoctrinated people ARE husks (remember the Derelict Reaper? I think the captured STG agents were also husks? Basically zombies. it's been a while)

Saren was thinking for himself when he shot himself in the head. Therefore he was not fully indoctrinated even then. He was able to resist indoctrination even then. Therefore implants make it difficult to resist. Not impossible

Modifié par KingZayd, 16 juin 2012 - 12:42 .

[KevShep]

KingZayd wrote...

KevShep wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KevShep wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Saren needed the implants only BECAUSE we told him he was indoctrinated. Nobody's told Shepard that he's indoctrinated. Also that extensively? He's only considering not destroying the reapers, he's not offering to kill the puny organics for them. He's not hallucinating.. he's dreaming because he got knocked out by a massive laser. People tend to dream when they're unconscious.

That's not true.  Saren said that he thought the facility on Vermire would keep him safe from indoctrination, which implies that  he was well aware of it

He was aware of indoctrination, but thought that Sovereign wasn't using it because then Saren would be in tip-top shape mentally and therefore more useful. He was wrong.

reaper indoctrination implants is the ONLY way that indoctrination is impossible to resist( ME1 saren starts to resist at the end and then says that his implants are MAKING him obey the reapers). 

Indoctrination must be possible to resist if they need to use implants.

Saren WAS resisting but was stopped by the implants even thought he was ALREADY indoctrinated.

The implants amplify indoctrination, and make control easier. Saren was more indoctrinated on the Citadel as a result. Saren did resist with the implants.. shortly before blowing his brains out.

Saren was so heavily implanted, that Sovereign was basically able to remote control Saren's implanted skeleton even after he was dead.

Implants means direct control...The reapers do NOT control your thoughts. The reapers use the limbic system to feed you suggestions...this is how they can manipulate a person without direct control.

direct control means that the person is no longer themselves anymore. Saren was indoctrinated along time ago, He spent more then enough time in Sovereign to be listining to there suggestions as it is.

A fully indoctrinated person is a husk basicaly. They no longer make there own judgements as they are now completely listening to the reapers suggestions(case in point is Ki Lang). This makes them poor agents and causes there mind to fall apart quicker.

Saren was not thinging for himself when he was trying to find the conduit meaning that he was listening to sovereign completely. This suggests that hes was fully indoctrinated by the time he was on the citadel but it was the implants that stopped him from resisting.

Cerberus troops were implanted first. They could hear Reaper voices. They were not immediately controlled by the Reapers.

Saren was very much indoctrinated at the very end, but he was not fully indoctrinated. As you say, fully indoctrinated people ARE husks (remember the Derelict Reaper? I think the captured STG agents were also husks? Basically zombies. it's been a while)

Saren was thinking for himself when he shot himself in the head. Therefore he was not fully indoctrinated even then. He was able to resist indoctrination even then. Therefore implants make it difficult to resist. Not impossible

The troops where implanted and immediately indoctrinated as per a note you find in a side mission involving cerberus troops about a person waiting to be implanted. He takes the implants and is immediately not himself anymore.

The derelicted reaper husks was not because of indoctrination (yes they were indoctrinated before becoming husks however...), They were put on dragons teeth and made into a machine.


Saren himself said that the less control that the reapers take the more usefull they become. The more control the reapers take the more usless the person will be(husk-more then one meaning). 

Ki Lang was fully indoctrinated and he HAD to be upgraded with tech(notice hes half machine) because full reapers control destroyes the body and mind.

Modifié par KevShep, 16 juin 2012 - 12:51 .

[Catamantaloedis]

The Indoctrination Delusion is a failed attempt by those too weak minded to accept that the endings are genuine to pull themselves out of their own degradation and misery. Instead of accepting reality, they turn themselves towards nonsense and lies. The most telling aspect of their delusion is their fanatical belief in this irrational "theory" despite the clear, apparent evidence refuting such a preposterous notion.

It is a lie. Its adherents are among the most foolish to breathe in generations.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 16 juin 2012 - 01:06 .

[KingZayd]

KevShep wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KevShep wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KevShep wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

RyanSoup wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Saren needed the implants only BECAUSE we told him he was indoctrinated. Nobody's told Shepard that he's indoctrinated. Also that extensively? He's only considering not destroying the reapers, he's not offering to kill the puny organics for them. He's not hallucinating.. he's dreaming because he got knocked out by a massive laser. People tend to dream when they're unconscious.

That's not true.  Saren said that he thought the facility on Vermire would keep him safe from indoctrination, which implies that  he was well aware of it

He was aware of indoctrination, but thought that Sovereign wasn't using it because then Saren would be in tip-top shape mentally and therefore more useful. He was wrong.

reaper indoctrination implants is the ONLY way that indoctrination is impossible to resist( ME1 saren starts to resist at the end and then says that his implants are MAKING him obey the reapers). 

Indoctrination must be possible to resist if they need to use implants.

Saren WAS resisting but was stopped by the implants even thought he was ALREADY indoctrinated.

The implants amplify indoctrination, and make control easier. Saren was more indoctrinated on the Citadel as a result. Saren did resist with the implants.. shortly before blowing his brains out.

Saren was so heavily implanted, that Sovereign was basically able to remote control Saren's implanted skeleton even after he was dead.

Implants means direct control...The reapers do NOT control your thoughts. The reapers use the limbic system to feed you suggestions...this is how they can manipulate a person without direct control.

direct control means that the person is no longer themselves anymore. Saren was indoctrinated along time ago, He spent more then enough time in Sovereign to be listining to there suggestions as it is.

A fully indoctrinated person is a husk basicaly. They no longer make there own judgements as they are now completely listening to the reapers suggestions(case in point is Ki Lang). This makes them poor agents and causes there mind to fall apart quicker.

Saren was not thinging for himself when he was trying to find the conduit meaning that he was listening to sovereign completely. This suggests that hes was fully indoctrinated by the time he was on the citadel but it was the implants that stopped him from resisting.

Cerberus troops were implanted first. They could hear Reaper voices. They were not immediately controlled by the Reapers.

Saren was very much indoctrinated at the very end, but he was not fully indoctrinated. As you say, fully indoctrinated people ARE husks (remember the Derelict Reaper? I think the captured STG agents were also husks? Basically zombies. it's been a while)

Saren was thinking for himself when he shot himself in the head. Therefore he was not fully indoctrinated even then. He was able to resist indoctrination even then. Therefore implants make it difficult to resist. Not impossible

The troops where implanted and immediately indoctrinated as per a note you find in a side mission involving cerberus troops about a person waiting to be implanted. He takes the implants and is immediately not himself anymore.

The derelicted reaper husks was not because of indoctrination (yes they were indoctrinated before becoming husks however...), They were put on dragons teeth and made into a machine.


Saren himself said that the less control that the reapers take the more usefull they become. The more control the reapers take the more usless the person will be(husk-more then one meaning). 

Ki Lang was fully indoctrinated and he HAD to be upgraded with tech(notice hes half machine) because full reapers control destroyes the body and mind.

Clearly not all Cerberus troops became immediately controlled by the Reapers, which is why Cerberus troops fought Husks on Sanctuary.

OK, but I do know that we saw pure indoctrination husks somewhere, i guess it was the STG agents then.

Yes, and Saren thought that made him safe, but he was wrong. Sovereign's priority was Saren's loyalty. Once he sensed Saren was having doubts, Sovereign reacted by implanting him and indoctrinating further.

Kai Leng was damaged by Anderson or Kahlee wasn't he? Also, he's pretty far gone, but he's not FULLY indoctrinated, because he's not a husk. As in there's still room for more indoctrination. That said Kai Leng was loyal to TIM, and indoctrinated by him too.

[Bananables]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I don't see Harbinger's laser blast as an indoctrination attempt. I think it's a killing attempt. It knocks Shepard out. He dreams. Indoctrination had already started a while back with Object Rho. He's been resisting all this time, but now he's in a weakened state. This is potentially a point at which the indoctrination is able to present significantly.

This isn't canon. If you don't play the DLC, you never get this mission and never encounter Object Rho. So no, it cannot be used as a canon source of Indocrination, as for many it never happened.

Many did do this mission though. And everyone else who did have the object activate on them became indoctrinated. Therefore it becomes very unlikely that the Shepards who were involved didn't get indoctrinated. On the other hand, it's not quite so unlikely that the Shepards that didn't do this mission were indoctrinated in some other way.

But some didn't, thus it isn't canon.

I know this thread is 9 pages long and I'm quoting a post from the first page, but...

The game assumes that Arrival happened whether you played it or not on your saved game. Shepard was relieved of duty due to what went down in Arrival and that's how ME3 starts whether or not you played it. The same way Liara is the new Shadow Broker in ME3 regardless if you helped her kill the old one in LotSB or not. I read somewhere that she tells you she has "usurped the most notorious information broker of all" or something like that.

[KevShep]

KingZayd wrote...


Clearly not all Cerberus troops became immediately controlled by the Reapers, which is why Cerberus troops fought Husks on Sanctuary.

OK, but I do know that we saw pure indoctrination husks somewhere, i guess it was the STG agents then.

Yes, and Saren thought that made him safe, but he was wrong. Sovereign's priority was Saren's loyalty. Once he sensed Saren was having doubts, Sovereign reacted by implanting him and indoctrinating further.

Kai Leng was damaged by Anderson or Kahlee wasn't he? Also, he's pretty far gone, but he's not FULLY indoctrinated, because he's not a husk. As in there's still room for more indoctrination. That said Kai Leng was loyal to TIM, and indoctrinated by him too.

Cerberus and the reapers are really shady because TIM is fighting the reapers but yet he tells the reapers that we are going to use the crucible when he says he needs to use it as well but now cant becuse the reapers are protecting it.   So in short...Cerberus even fought the reapers pets at the same time that they were doing there biding.

The husks that you see on vermire had there minds completely destroyed by indoctrination. However also notice that there was another one that was fully indoctrinated but not brain dead. He says to let him out and when you do he attacks you on command.

The implanted cerberus troops makes it clear that implants is a direct control device, not a indoctrination accelerator. Indoctrination and direct control are two different things and so are the methods. 

It states in the cerberus main base that Kai Lang was upgraded. Yes he was shot by Anderson but only in the legs. It shows that most of his body is machine.