62 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

David Gaider wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
Out of curiosity, when Anders dies what happens to Justice/Vengeance? (if it's not too spoilery to say)

If you believe Anders, then Justice would have been freed. If not, then Justice was destroyed along with him.

Either way, Justice won't be possessing Anders' corpse. A dead Anders is gone.

Also, if we had taken Anders with us into the fade in DAII and put the murder knife through Justice/Vengeance, what would have happened to the two (or one?) of them? I've always been curious about that and as his LI wished I'd had the chance to chew that d**n spirit out for ruining my boyfriend's life.

I'll leave that to speculation, though I doubt that would be a good solution. It certainly would not have simply killed Justice and freed Anders, at any rate.

Thanks!

So I guess it's true what Anders said? - That he and Justice have become one. If he was simply possessed like Connor had been attacking Justice in the Fade might have separated them. So they really are kind of a unique situation. Even Wynne didn't seem to catch any of her fade spirit's personality.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 16 juin 2012 - 08:41 .

[schalafi]

David Gaider wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
Out of curiosity, when Anders dies what happens to Justice/Vengeance? (if it's not too spoilery to say)

If you believe Anders, then Justice would have been freed. If not, then Justice was destroyed along with him.

Either way, Justice won't be possessing Anders' corpse. A dead Anders is gone.

Also, if we had taken Anders with us into the fade in DAII and put the murder knife through Justice/Vengeance, what would have happened to the two (or one?) of them? I've always been curious about that and as his LI wished I'd had the chance to chew that d**n spirit out for ruining my boyfriend's life.

I'll leave that to speculation, though I doubt that would be a good solution. It certainly would not have simply killed Justice and freed Anders, at any rate.

No the only way Anders could live without Justice is if he died briefly and Justice left him. Then a mage resurrected him and Voila, he is alive without Justice.

[Ulicus]

The game went back-and-forth on it a bit, but my preferred understanding is that Anders and Justice had long ago ceased to be distinct individuals and become a single demonic spirit wearing Anders' body: Vengeance.

Sure, we see "Anders" and "Justice" battle for control but, as far as I'm concerned, the "Anders" we knew in DA2 was simply that part of Vengeance that identified itself more with its memory of being human (mainly Anders, with a bit of Kristoff thrown in), and the "Justice" we knew in DA2 was that part of Vengeance that identified itself more with the memory of being a spirit. Two personalities, but ultimately a single and irreducible "person".

Considering that, I'd be quite content to learn that killing "Anders" had done nothing other than deprive Vengeance of a meatsuit, and I'd be more than happy for it to reappear in a future game (or games, even) having having possessed a new guy/gal and for it to have subsumed the poor sod's personality into its whole.

Modifié par Ulicus, 17 juin 2012 - 03:10 .

[Urzon]

I wouldn't mind seeing Sebastian getting possessed (forcefully maybe) by Vengeance. It would sure fit his character after the bombing of the Chantry. Seb goes out looking for vengeance, and he winds up with Vengeance.

Not to mention, it would make me laugh hysterically.

[Ulicus]

Maker, NO!



That's a hilarious idea. I like you, ser.

[schalafi]

Urzon wrote...

I wouldn't mind seeing Sebastian getting possessed (forcefully maybe) by Vengeance. It would sure fit his character after the bombing of the Chantry. Seb goes out looking for vengeance, and he winds up with Vengeance.

Not to mention, it would make me laugh hysterically.

Yes! that would take him down a few pegs, I couldn't stand  his righteous preaching.

[Dakota Strider]

Maybe somewhere, there can be a small cutscene of all the dead npc's, all in one place, hovering around as spirits/ghosts, making a comment about those that did them in. Anders, Loghain, Zevron and any others that crossed the path of the Protagonist, one too many times.

[Arthur Cousland]

I think it's time to give Anders a rest. Let's have a new healer companion who's less self-destructive, and neither a preacher or whiner.

[Ulicus]

I wouldn't want him back as a companion. As an antagonist, however....

[berelinde]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

I think it's time to give Anders a rest. Let's have a new healer companion who's less self-destructive, and neither a preacher or whiner.

Like Galyan! <3

[bEVEsthda]

(for claiming to talk about a "whiner", never heard so much whining,..)
But for us who kept Anders alive, do we get to blow up more things together?
Seems fitting that we should I think. He has the recipe, after all.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 17 juin 2012 - 09:55 .

[rapscallioness]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

I think it's time to give Anders a rest. Let's have a new healer companion who's less self-destructive, and neither a preacher or whiner.

Yes, please.

Personally, I never really liked Anders. I tried. I really did. I actually liked him less in DA:A. But either way...he just strikes me as a user.

I romanced him because I could. But I took a murder knife to him. I took a murder knife to Lover! It was all very dramatic....

I'd be okay with not seeing Justice again, either. The whole rotting corpse bit in DA:A and then everything with Anders...I just...no. Anders/Justice are both like that one ex you just can't seem to get rid of. Oh, it's you...again..

I'm definitely ready to see some fresh faces. Some fresh personalities.

[Arthur Cousland]

I was just thinking, that in DA3 it would be nice to have a healer companion who's less Wynne/Anders...and more Malcolm Hawke.

[nightscrawl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Justice/Vengeance take control of Anders' corpse, if Anders was killed. It'd be interesting for DAIII IMO. I can't see Justice/Vengeance just sitting idly by while the cause that he took to heart is going on.

I'm glad Anders will remain dead if murder-knifed, but I don't think Justice/Vengeance should just disappear. He was sundered from the Fade and was bound to Anders' body through a willing possession. Anders is different from any Abomination we've ever encountered.

Yep, I agree here. While I'm glad the choice will stay, I wouldn't mind seeing Justice again, since it opens up some interesting possibilities.

First of all, I don't see why he would be "freed," as Anders suggests, and just not choose to possess his corpse right there -- other than, of course, understanding as his friend, however much he has changed since we knew him in DAA by being "warped" by Anders's rage, that Anders would not want that, and so might respect that out of friendship.

And too, if we see Justice again, perhaps possessing some other person, who is to say that as a spirit/fade being, that perhaps they are naturally malleable and mold to their host. In possessing another person, or even another corpse that is lying around as a result of the events at the end of Act 3, there is no guarantee that he will still be Vengenace. Perhaps, in taking an empty vessel he might return to DAA Justice (which I would love to see and talk to him about Anders and things). If he is able to forcibly possess another living host, he may become something else entirely, perhaps a true abomination.

David Gaider wrote...

I'll leave that to speculation, though I doubt that would be a good solution. It certainly would not have simply killed Justice and freed Anders, at any rate.

At the very least, I doubt he would be pleased with Hawke for a while... boyfriend or no.

[brushyourteeth]

Does anyone else think that maybe Justice wasn't warped by Anders' rage at all (Wynne didn't seem to have any similar problems, unless she was wrong in thinking she was possessed and the spirit was just maintaining her life from the Fade).

I'm thinking, "what did Anders have going on that Wynne didn't?" For all her grandmotherlyness, she could get downright furious about a few hot topics herself. But Anders had the Taint™. Could that have been what actually corrupted Justice? And in that case, with Anders dead, could Justice have gone back to normal?

[Arthur Cousland]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Does anyone else think that maybe Justice wasn't warped by Anders' rage at all (Wynne didn't seem to have any similar problems, unless she was wrong in thinking she was possessed and the spirit was just maintaining her life from the Fade).

I'm thinking, "what did Anders have going on that Wynne didn't?" For all her grandmotherlyness, she could get downright furious about a few hot topics herself. But Anders had the Taint™. Could that have been what actually corrupted Justice? And in that case, with Anders dead, could Justice have gone back to normal?

One major difference between Wynne and Anders, was their view on the templars and the circle.  Wynne was content as a circle mage and mentored other mages.  Anders escaped the circle repeatedly, and was all about freedom for mages.

Justice probably couldn't have returned to the fade, since he was forcibly removed during the events in Awakening.  He needed a body to possess to avoid becoming a wisp or something similar, though I could be wrong about that.

[Dakota Strider]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Does anyone else think that maybe Justice wasn't warped by Anders' rage at all (Wynne didn't seem to have any similar problems, unless she was wrong in thinking she was possessed and the spirit was just maintaining her life from the Fade).

I'm thinking, "what did Anders have going on that Wynne didn't?" For all her grandmotherlyness, she could get downright furious about a few hot topics herself. But Anders had the Taint™. Could that have been what actually corrupted Justice? And in that case, with Anders dead, could Justice have gone back to normal?

Its a possible theory.  The taint is definitely a physical affliction.  But can it also be a spiritual one?

[bzombo]

I'd love to see Justice in DA3, but as a "normal" guy. Something closer to his Awakening version. Even if he's all fired up about helping the mages, his personality was much better in Awakening. Making him a psycho like in 2 would kinda stink were he to return. Anders, however, was cool in Awakening and became a pain in the you know what in 2. I could not stand him.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

brushyourteeth wrote...

But Anders had the Taint™. Could that have been what actually corrupted Justice? And in that case, with Anders dead, could Justice have gone back to normal?

Kristoff was tainted too, wasn't he?

As for what he had that Wynne didn't, there's the possibility that we're looking in the wrong direction. Maybe Justice is simply less fit to inhabit a living person than Faith is?

[rapscallioness]

Before I played DA:A, I really thought this "Justice" was actually a demon that had tricked Anders. Played off his whole freedom for mages thing in order to possess him. They do that.

After playing Awakening...ack..I didn't know what to think anymore. It was obvious this spirit was for real in its intent, but there's something blind about it.

Justice for the mages, but then what about the innocents that were killed in the explosion? What about that mage girl that he almost murdered..or did in some playthrus?

Justice has alot to learn. In many ways Justice seems very child like in its understanding of the complexities of..."Justice". Idk how they do it in the Fade, but things are a bit more shades of grey and layered in this world.

So, yeah, it might be interesting to see Justice again. See him evolve in his understanding of things. Maybe even see some regret? You know, it's easy being righteous as an untested "angel". How do you do after you Fall to earth, so to say? That's when things get dicey.

I just don't want to lug around another rotting corpse. Really, I don't. In DA:A we were about to go into town, alright..let's go. Oh, wait...I looked at Justice/Kristoff for awhile. Half of his face falling off. Hold on. Went into inventory and slapped a big old helmet on him. Hmm.

And if Justice is ticked with Hawke over the whole murder knife thing..well, hey...it was only Justice. He should understand that. No?

[rapscallioness]

Oh, and I understand we're not going to be playing as Hawke again. But that would have been..interesting and weird to run into Justice (whatever form he takes) in a new game.

I mean, especially if you romanced Anders. Would there have been some residual ...eeeee...feelings for Hawke. You know, because some Anders rubbed off on Justice. Would those kind of things have stuck with the spirit?

Would this have been utterly confusing to the spirit? Would he have been like some weird stalker spirit? Or, if he got a real body...idk how that would happen (maybe someone that was close to death, and wanted to leave this world. And Justice came to an agreement with that someone to take over their body? Idk..)

I mean, if Anders ever truly cared for Hawke, would Justice have been influenced by this, even in a new host? Omg. Justice as LI. Lol!

[Asch Lavigne]

David Gaider wrote...

FieryDove wrote...
David has already stated if Anders died in your DA2 game, he stays dead.

Indeed. While I've certainly no aversion towards doing such a thing if the story called for it (though a possessed Anders corpse would be pretty silly even for a hand-wave... I think I'd have an aversion to that), a dead Anders will remain dead.

Yay! I really hated the whole "Anders is a Warden no matter what you did in Awakening" thing, or "Leliana was with you/auto resurrected even if you killed her."

For me this is already a step in the right direction.

[nightscrawl]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Does anyone else think that maybe Justice wasn't warped by Anders' rage at all (Wynne didn't seem to have any similar problems, unless she was wrong in thinking she was possessed and the spirit was just maintaining her life from the Fade).

I'm thinking, "what did Anders have going on that Wynne didn't?" For all her grandmotherlyness, she could get downright furious about a few hot topics herself. But Anders had the Taint™. Could that have been what actually corrupted Justice? And in that case, with Anders dead, could Justice have gone back to normal?

I got the impression that the basic foundation of the individual fade being in each case was different. Wynne's "spirit" was curious about her, that was all, and certain events happened that caused them to be joined. Justice on the other hand was a "spirit" with a purpose, a mission, a reason for being: the pursuit of justice. We see him in such pursuit the first time we encounter him in the fade, trying to help the trapped residents of the Blackmarsh village.

I think he was "warped" by Anders's rage. Partly because Anders himself terms it as such, but also because of what we knew of Justice from DAA. I don't think that DAA Justice would have played out that scene with Ella. That was not "justice." That was rage, blinded to all reason, logic, and restraint.

rapscallioness wrote...

Justice has alot to learn. In many ways Justice seems very child like in its understanding of the complexities of..."Justice". Idk how they do it in the Fade, but things are a bit more shades of grey and layered in this world.

I don't think it's so much that he's "child like," rather that he is/was a pure being from the fade. Justice is black and white. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Darkspawn were responsible for Kristoff's death, so he wanted them dead, and says so during your dealings with the Architect, without regard or even consideration to the greater potential for stopping any future Blights or ending the darkspawn menace.

He does have a lot to learn and understand, but it's more along the lines of him coming to terms with the fact that very few instances are black and white, right and wrong, in the mortal world. Sometimes, you must choose the lesser of two evils, and I'm not sure that he understands that yet.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 18 juin 2012 - 10:33 .

[rapscallioness]

Definitely, Nightscrawl.

Although, when I say child like I mean so in the mortal world...as you, too, were saying. He's like a babe trying to learn the ropes, or needing to learn the ropes. A very powerful and potentially dangerous babe.

But seeing him evolve would be the only thing that would interest me in seeing him again in game. On his own. Without being melded to someone else. How he comes to terms with the differences between abstract ideals and more mundane, messy realities.

[rapscallioness]

As far as Anders staying dead if you killed him in DA2....heck, he didn't even stay dead for me in DA2.

After I killed him, and the whole thing is over, in epilogue Varric says everyone left the Champion. All except Anders, that is.

I was like, no, but wait...what now?