896 réponses à ce sujet

[SauliusL]

Seboist wrote...

Erield wrote...

I don't think that IT was implemented well (if true), but it could have been.  If IT was intended to be canon, and they wanted to lie and say the product was finished and then have a DLC ready a few weeks after launch--well, [i]that/i] would have been pretty epic.  Time it for two weeks after the Asia markets got the game, so all your hardcore fanbase would have finished it and be going 'wtf?  hey, wait a minute...' and then BAM!

But they didn't.  So, it was done poorly, if it was done.  So, they get no forgiveness from me for lying, if they are.  If that makes sense.

If IT was intended they would have made use of Object Rho and/or reveal Lazarus was done using Reaper derived technology instead of them being mere plot devices to fast forward time and as plot resets.

If Call of Duty: Black Ops of all things was able to pull off a decent indoctrination plot then I could see the ME writers being able to do it(despite my low opinion of them) but the fact remains that they didn't and judging by their amaterish attempts at schock value (kid dying in the intro) would have made it far more obvious than what the ITers are claiming.

I don't quite agree. What is a subtle hint in a game like Call of Duty, would be a stupid screaming in game like Mass effect. Again, IF IT is true, there were more than enough hints to understand but still doubt (as all this deception should provoke two main things - hope and doubt).

By the way, did you watch recetly or in the past couple years any movies, where after finishing them you wanted to watch them again, to go into deeper layers, to understand better, adjust the interpretation after every time you watch it? This would be impossible if hints were obvious and the truth - one layered. Did you like "Serious man" man by Coen brothers?

[Erield]

SauliusL wrote...

From my point of view, as an artist - new things, which were never done before are very interesting in art and social perspective. Art in general is trying to give vivid emotions, sometimes even rage or dissapointment. I am not saying Mass effect is art, I am saying if IT is true - they are trying to cross the line of art. If IT will be true, they did a social thing with a computer game, which never happened before. Such deep analysis by fans, the ongoing interest for so long and the people (like me) who never go to forums after finishing games are attracted here and share the experiences, thoughts. Such impact previously could be done only by the best films or books by best authors.

That's the problem with art <.<

It's all subjective.  And a lot of it is crap (no offense.)  I saw an art exhibit that was old cars turned upside down hanging from a ceiling with a bunch of lightbulbs attached.  Or something similar to that...I definitely remember the upside down cars.  Anyway, it was a featured superawesome exhibit at the Seattle Art Museum for awhile a few years ago.  I was just like, 'Whaaaaat?!' 

There's a bunch of famous, supposedly awesome, paintings and such that also don't appeal to me at all.  I can't even say that if you just take some paint and splatter it on a canvas it's not art, because some of ******'s stuff is really, really neat...but.  I dunno.  If Bioware was trying this whole new experiment thing with art, I can see how you might appreciate what they were trying to do; I don't.  The way it was done didn't do anything for me except rage.

[Nightwriter]

SauliusL wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Erield wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

And if IT is true and they intend to release the real conclusion via DLC, why lie about it? Why say the EC is merely clarification? Double talk is only going to make fans angrier. On the other hand, coming out and revealing that it was all a ruse would probably settle a lot of people down, even if it did provoke a lot of irritated grumbling. We'd resent being jerked around, but the greater reaction would be, "Thank God, I knew they weren't really that inept."

It will make fans like you - angrier.
But IT believers - fans for life

Sooo, you're happy when people give you double-speak and lies, just because you saw through it to what they were attempting to hide?  That's...that's really as positive a spin as I can fathom for what you said, and it took me a bit to even get that.  I don't care who you are; if you deliberately mislead and attempt to deceive me, then the entire process has to be well done to keep me from being pissed off.  Sadly, that's essentially what we've been getting from Bioware.

But that's what the theme of indoctrination is about.. trickery and deception. Because it has the largest development cycles of any ME dlc while still being free dlc, that's strange in itself.

Exactly.
From my point of view, as an artist - new things, which were never done before are very interesting in art and social perspective. Art in general is trying to give vivid emotions, sometimes even rage or dissapointment. I am not saying Mass effect is art, I am saying if IT is true - they are trying to cross the line of art. If IT will be true, they did a social thing with a computer game, which never happened before. Such deep analysis by fans, the ongoing interest for so long and the people (like me) who never go to forums after finishing games are attracted here and share the experiences, thoughts. Such impact previously could be done only by the best films or books by best authors. I don't see why people get so angry if some fans believe bioware might be so ambitious to make it with a game
And all that ongoing flame and provocations is just a lack of culture or inner teenage fights. They are on both sides and clever people know that while ignoring the trolls.

Either way, only time will tell.

I have a healthy respect for ambitious creative undertakings, but sometimes I think writers try too hard to be innovative and artsy. It makes my nose wrinkle. They start doing things like adding grimdark for the sake of grimdark, calling it "mature" or "artistic," and flake on answering the important questions their stories created, all in the name of tasteful ambiguity or open-ended interpretation.

They don't get points in my book for doing something new. They get points for doing something new and doing it well.

[Jadebaby]

Nightwriter wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

IT is a great fan created headcanon. It is not canon. the devs are releasing clarification, not priority,earth part 2 shepards awakening.

See, it's posts like this that I find amusing.

Well, one can't help but notice that the devs are really not responding in a way that suggests IT is correct. They have defended the ending as if it is quite real. They give you a "you beat the Reapers, you're a legend, buy DLC!" popup message at the end of the game, which is really taking things a bit far if the ending was indeed a hallucination and the Reapers haven't truly been defeated yet.

And if IT is true and they intend to release the real conclusion via DLC, why lie about it? Why say the EC is merely clarification? Double talk is only going to make fans angrier. On the other hand, coming out and revealing that it was all a ruse would probably settle a lot of people down, even if it did provoke a lot of irritated grumbling. We'd resent being jerked around, but the greater reaction would be, "Thank God, I knew they weren't really that inept."

That's why they can't say anything, all those irritated grumbling people would lessen if they didn't find out it was a ruse until they have the truth right infront of them.

When I say the truth^ I mean it hypothetically.

The arguments for IT are too weak and BioWare's defense of the ending too strong for that to be the case. They've gone to the moon and back defending their "artistic integrity." They've said they didn't know there was a demand for the things we wanted from the ending but didn't get. "Bittersweet," "speculations," "clarification" -- everything we've heard from them sounds like nothing more than the clumsy stuttering defense of a company reeling from a fan backlash they utterly failed to anticipate. The voice actors themselves have stated that BioWare is not changing the endings, just "justifying" them.

Believing that all of this is a clever act to make us that much more surprised when the EC validates IT is stretching things quite far for the sake of a comforting interpretation. No grumbling caused by an IT reveal could be greater than the shrieking caused by the literal interpretation.

Just because Bioware defends there ending doesn't disprove IT. If you do your research IT is implemented with the existing endings.

[Jadebaby]

Nightwriter wrote...

I have a healthy respect for ambitious creative undertakings, but sometimes I think writers try too hard to be innovative and artsy. It makes my nose wrinkle. They start doing things like adding grimdark for the sake of grimdark, calling it "mature" or "artistic," and flake on answering the important questions their stories created, all in the name of tasteful ambiguity or open-ended interpretation.

They don't get points in my book for doing something new. They get points for doing something new and doing it well.

I loled at this. Not because I disagree but because you say it with a Lisa Simpson Avatar who looks like she just walked out of an art convention in Manhatten.

[SauliusL]

Erield wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Well, some people enjoy a psych out, as I understand it.

I appreciate a good fakeout, but...that's not quite what I was meaning.

There's a difference between in-game stuff and out-of-game. 

For instance, in-game everything could be a lie, an illusion, a battle at the center of the mind, a hallucination, drugs, whatever you want.  If the set-up is done well, then  maybe on the first playthrough you think maybe something's up but maybe not.  On a second playthrough, you see a whole bunch more details, and how they all fit in at the end and come together so that you can be in on the lie, psych-out, fake-out, whatever.  That would be potentially good.

Telling me you sold me a finished product when you didn't would be a bad way to do it.  Always bad.  No exceptions; just. Bad. 

I don't think that IT was implemented well (if true), but it could have been.  If IT was intended to be canon, and they wanted to lie and say the product was finished and then have a DLC ready a few weeks after launch--well, [i]that/i] would have been pretty epic.  Time it for two weeks after the Asia markets got the game, so all your hardcore fanbase would have finished it and be going 'wtf?  hey, wait a minute...' and then BAM!

But they didn't.  So, it was done poorly, if it was done.  So, they get no forgiveness from me for lying, if they are.  If that makes sense.

I agree that the execution was not perfect. But we have a saying - every first pancake is burned If they were trying to make something what they never did before, didn't know how it would work, took the risk, had EA always on their back with schedules and everything - it's more than possible they made some bad desicions or lacked time for good ones. But in my opinion the history of gaming (if IT is true) would remember the fact and the impact, but not how long it took for DLC to arrive - 2 weeks or 3 months.

[Erield]

@ SauliusL I dunno what you're talking about, every pancake I've ever made was perfect! And anyone who says otherwise got a pancake that my pet cat made, not me.

@ Jade8aby88 I fully agree that IT could be implemented within the current framework of the endings. There's a question of how well that could be done, specifically what (if anything) happens after the choice to highlight the differences between accepting/rejecting Indoctrination.

[SauliusL]

Erield wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

From my point of view, as an artist - new things, which were never done before are very interesting in art and social perspective. Art in general is trying to give vivid emotions, sometimes even rage or dissapointment. I am not saying Mass effect is art, I am saying if IT is true - they are trying to cross the line of art. If IT will be true, they did a social thing with a computer game, which never happened before. Such deep analysis by fans, the ongoing interest for so long and the people (like me) who never go to forums after finishing games are attracted here and share the experiences, thoughts. Such impact previously could be done only by the best films or books by best authors.

That's the problem with art <.<

It's all subjective.  And a lot of it is crap (no offense.)  I saw an art exhibit that was old cars turned upside down hanging from a ceiling with a bunch of lightbulbs attached.  Or something similar to that...I definitely remember the upside down cars.  Anyway, it was a featured superawesome exhibit at the Seattle Art Museum for awhile a few years ago.  I was just like, 'Whaaaaat?!' 

There's a bunch of famous, supposedly awesome, paintings and such that also don't appeal to me at all.  I can't even say that if you just take some paint and splatter it on a canvas it's not art, because some of ******'s stuff is really, really neat...but.  I dunno.  If Bioware was trying this whole new experiment thing with art, I can see how you might appreciate what they were trying to do; I don't.  The way it was done didn't do anything for me except rage.

Yes, that's a problem with art. Esspecially nowadays, when almost anyone can "be" an artist. Moreover with contenporary art.
But some art forms require special education and is not meant for everybody. Artist is often forced into compromise between what he wants, and what would be liked by the uneducated mass. The ones who work only for critics, don't have a lot of success, and the ones who work for public, don't have a lot of respect. It's always the balance that wins.

And until the EC is released, we know nothing about this balance We can just guess, hope, speculate, analyse, discuss, get angry. But not what OP is doing - flame and troll. It's just a destructive force, doing nothing good.

Modifié par SauliusL, 16 juin 2012 - 11:10 .

[OrginaVendor]

Great discussion, haven't being on the forums for a while and it's nice to see so much progression in both the IT and the anti-IT sentiments. But it doesn't change the fact that the anti-IT group are the **** group here. Your gut telling you that IT is ridiculous and focusing on logic that disproves it is one thing,

[Nightwriter]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Just because Bioware defends there ending doesn't disprove IT. If you do your research IT is implemented with the existing endings.

At most, you can say, "Just because BioWare defends the endings now doesn't mean they won't change their minds and go with IT later." I'd accept that.

But the idea that all the tweets, official statements, in-game confirmations, and developer comments are all a titanic fakeout ploy is beyond reasonable believability.

[SauliusL]

Erield wrote...

@ SauliusL I dunno what you're talking about, every pancake I've ever made was perfect! And anyone who says otherwise got a pancake that my pet cat made, not me.

@ Jade8aby88 I fully agree that IT could be implemented within the current framework of the endings. There's a question of how well that could be done, specifically what (if anything) happens after the choice to highlight the differences between accepting/rejecting Indoctrination.

Sorry, I am not a native english speaker. In my language we have a saying that "the first pancake is burned". It doesn't mean if you are a cook and make pancakes everytime the first one is burned. It means that some things that you do in your life for the first time might fail at first

[Erield]

I figured that's what you meant. I was deliberately being silly...that's why I had the comment about my cat making them heheh.

[SauliusL]

Nightwriter wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Just because Bioware defends there ending doesn't disprove IT. If you do your research IT is implemented with the existing endings.

At most, you can say, "Just because BioWare defends the endings now doesn't mean they won't change their minds and go with IT later." I'd accept that.

But the idea that all the tweets, official statements, in-game confirmations, and developer comments are all a titanic fakeout ploy is beyond reasonable believability.

It would be ambitious and surprising, but not beyond reasonable believability. Not for me and the things I saw in my life at least )

[Erield]

SauliusL wrote...

It would be ambitious and surprising, but not beyond reasonable believability. Not for me and the things I saw in my life at least )

Seriously?  I mean, I could see a monkey (or monkey-like animal.)  You know, something with thumbs.  Ya gotta have the thumb to be able to flip the pancake, or else it won't turn out right.

[Nightwriter]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I have a healthy respect for ambitious creative undertakings, but sometimes I think writers try too hard to be innovative and artsy. It makes my nose wrinkle. They start doing things like adding grimdark for the sake of grimdark, calling it "mature" or "artistic," and flake on answering the important questions their stories created, all in the name of tasteful ambiguity or open-ended interpretation.

They don't get points in my book for doing something new. They get points for doing something new and doing it well.

I loled at this. Not because I disagree but because you say it with a Lisa Simpson Avatar who looks like she just walked out of an art convention in Manhatten.

Summer of 4 Ft. 2 was a glorious episode. Lisa was trying too hard, poor thing, but she learned a valuable lesson. The trendy kids accepted her in the end and loved her for her nerdiness. The moral of this story is that when no one signs your yearbook you should dress like a beatnik until people decorate your car with seashells.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 16 juin 2012 - 11:22 .

[SauliusL]

Erield wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

It would be ambitious and surprising, but not beyond reasonable believability. Not for me and the things I saw in my life at least )

Seriously?  I mean, I could see a monkey (or monkey-like animal.)  You know, something with thumbs.  Ya gotta have the thumb to be able to flip the pancake, or else it won't turn out right.

Are you reffering to bioware being monkeys withouth thumbs? )

[Erield]

SauliusL wrote...

Are you reffering to bioware being monkeys withouth thumbs? )

I'm trying to figure out what kind of animals you've seen cooking to make the thought of a cat making pancakes seem like a perfectly reasonable idea !

[EnemyD]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

IT is a great fan created headcanon. It is not canon. the devs are releasing clarification, not priority,earth part 2 shepards awakening.

See, it's posts like this that I find amusing.

Well, one can't help but notice that the devs are really not responding in a way that suggests IT is correct. They have defended the ending as if it is quite real. They give you a "you beat the Reapers, you're a legend, buy DLC!" popup message at the end of the game, which is really taking things a bit far if the ending was indeed a hallucination and the Reapers haven't truly been defeated yet.

And if IT is true and they intend to release the real conclusion via DLC, why lie about it? Why say the EC is merely clarification? Double talk is only going to make fans angrier. On the other hand, coming out and revealing that it was all a ruse would probably settle a lot of people down, even if it did provoke a lot of irritated grumbling. We'd resent being jerked around, but the greater reaction would be, "Thank God, I knew they weren't really that inept."

That's why they can't say anything, all those irritated grumbling people would lessen if they didn't find out it was a ruse until they have the truth right infront of them.

When I say the truth^ I mean it hypothetically.

The arguments for IT are too weak and BioWare's defense of the ending too strong for that to be the case. They've gone to the moon and back defending their "artistic integrity." They've said they didn't know there was a demand for the things we wanted from the ending but didn't get. "Bittersweet," "speculations," "clarification" -- everything we've heard from them sounds like nothing more than the clumsy stuttering defense of a company reeling from a fan backlash they utterly failed to anticipate. The voice actors themselves have stated that BioWare is not changing the endings, just "justifying" them.

Believing that all of this is a clever act to make us that much more surprised when the EC validates IT is stretching things quite far for the sake of a comforting interpretation. No grumbling caused by an IT reveal could be greater than the shrieking caused by the literal interpretation.

Just because Bioware defends there ending doesn't disprove IT. If you do your research IT is implemented with the existing endings.

Indeed that's true.

[SauliusL]

Erield wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

Are you reffering to bioware being monkeys withouth thumbs? )

I'm trying to figure out what kind of animals you've seen cooking to make the thought of a cat making pancakes seem like a perfectly reasonable idea !

Nightwriter wrote...
"But the idea that all the tweets, official statements, in-game
confirmations, and developer comments are all a titanic fakeout ploy is
beyond reasonable believability. "

Are you being intentionally silly again?

[EnemyD]

Nightwriter wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I have a healthy respect for ambitious creative undertakings, but sometimes I think writers try too hard to be innovative and artsy. It makes my nose wrinkle. They start doing things like adding grimdark for the sake of grimdark, calling it "mature" or "artistic," and flake on answering the important questions their stories created, all in the name of tasteful ambiguity or open-ended interpretation.

They don't get points in my book for doing something new. They get points for doing something new and doing it well.

I loled at this. Not because I disagree but because you say it with a Lisa Simpson Avatar who looks like she just walked out of an art convention in Manhatten.

Summer of 4 Ft. 2 was a glorious episode. Lisa was trying too hard, poor thing, but she learned a valuable lesson. The trendy kids accepted her in the end and loved her for her nerdiness. The moral of this story is that when no one signs your yearbook you should dress like a beatnik until people decorate your car with seashells.

Seems rather shallow.

[Erield]

Ah. no. That would be me being tired and misreading. Whoops. Oh well. Only another 10 minutes, then I will have successfully switched from first to third shift sleep schedule and I can pass out.

[Candidate 88766]

The problem with the IT is that 'believers' came to the conclusion first, and then started twisting evidence to suit their conclusion when the majority of it can be far more simply explained with reused assets or a developer overlooking something.

Its clear now that the IT was never intended from the start:

The entire story of ME3 leaked out twice before the game did, and yet there is never even the slightest mention of anything suggesting the IT in either script - and the second script is pretty much identical to the finished story. Not to mention that so far all the MP DLCs have been leaked prior to release. Information about the MP itself leaked out well ahead of its announcement. And yet, despite how leaky this project has been, there is yet to be a single leak with evidence even hinting at the IT.

If a 'real' ending had been planned all along, then:
-Why has it taken so long to bring out?
-Why has no-one from Bioware, either officially or unofficially, come out to say that they have something up their sleeve to placate the fanbase and the media? Given the sheer amount of hate coming their way, surely placating the fanbase is a greater priority than keeping the 'surprise' of the ending from being spoiled. This is a videogame with a very dedicated fanbase, not an April Fools joke.
-Why do the voice-actors think the fact that they're coming back to record new dialogue is noteworthy enough to tweet about? If a new ending had been planned, the dialogue would've either been recorded with all other dialogue, or the VAs would've been informed they'd be coming back in very soon after ME3's release.


Fans that are waiting for some 'real' ending are just setting themselves up for a catastrophic disappointment. The IT is a very interesting interpretation of the ending, but all but the most dedicated IT believers must realise that it obviously wasn't intended from the start and in all likelihood won't be used in the EC.

[Jadebaby]

Nightwriter wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Just because Bioware defends there ending doesn't disprove IT. If you do your research IT is implemented with the existing endings.

At most, you can say, "Just because BioWare defends the endings now doesn't mean they won't change their minds and go with IT later." I'd accept that.

But the idea that all the tweets, official statements, in-game confirmations, and developer comments are all a titanic fakeout ploy is beyond reasonable believability.

I agree, but what you have to remember is from what we've heard it was only Casey Hudson and Mac Walters who wrote the ending. Meaning maybe it was ONLY them two that knew. They said do this that and this and put that there, this would explain the uproar from within Bioware itself about the ending while also explaining the 'master plan' Mac and Casey were keeping between themselves.

[SauliusL]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The problem with the IT is that 'believers' came to the conclusion first, and then started twisting evidence to suit their conclusion when the majority of it can be far more simply explained with reused assets or a developer overlooking something.

Its clear now that the IT was never intended from the start:

The entire story of ME3 leaked out twice before the game did, and yet there is never even the slightest mention of anything suggesting the IT in either script - and the second script is pretty much identical to the finished story. Not to mention that so far all the MP DLCs have been leaked prior to release. Information about the MP itself leaked out well ahead of its announcement. And yet, despite how leaky this project has been, there is yet to be a single leak with evidence even hinting at the IT.

If a 'real' ending had been planned all along, then:
-Why has it taken so long to bring out?
-Why has no-one from Bioware, either officially or unofficially, come out to say that they have something up their sleeve to placate the fanbase and the media? Given the sheer amount of hate coming their way, surely placating the fanbase is a greater priority than keeping the 'surprise' of the ending from being spoiled. This is a videogame with a very dedicated fanbase, not an April Fools joke.
-Why do the voice-actors think the fact that they're coming back to record new dialogue is noteworthy enough to tweet about? If a new ending had been planned, the dialogue would've either been recorded with all other dialogue, or the VAs would've been informed they'd be coming back in very soon after ME3's release.


Fans that are waiting for some 'real' ending are just setting themselves up for a catastrophic disappointment. The IT is a very interesting interpretation of the ending, but all but the most dedicated IT believers must realise that it obviously wasn't intended from the start and in all likelihood won't be used in the EC.

What?? I stopped reading at "The entire story of ME3 leaked out twice before the game did, and yet
there is never even the slightest mention of anything suggesting the IT
in either script "

Did you miss the part that Bioware was extensively experimenting on gameplay mechanics with Shepard indoctrinated, but canceled that as not possible to execute properly??

EDIT - sorry wrong copy paste

Modifié par SauliusL, 16 juin 2012 - 11:34 .

[Jadebaby]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The problem with the IT is that 'believers' came to the conclusion first, and then started twisting evidence to suit their conclusion when the majority of it can be far more simply explained with reused assets or a developer overlooking something.

Sorry, stopped reading there, but already that's incorrect.

Indoctrination is present in the very first scene of ME3. The kid running around the garden with the toy.

Look back through the anals of BSN and you will find Indoctrination conspiracies surrounding this from the ME3 demo.