896 réponses à ce sujet

[M Hedonist]

NoSpin wrote...

It was part of the plan. Whether it was completely removed or not, indoctrination is hinted at (WHY even include the inky shadows line by the Rachni Queen? Oh, because of the inky shadows in Sheps DREAMS).

Are you saying they were planning IT back in ME1?

[SauliusL]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...
Agreed. So if indoctrination is present throughout the game why is it such a far right idea that the ending could be in Shepard's subconscious as s/he lies there unconscious?

Because indoctrination in the game is simply the changing of brain functions via signals until the subject obeys the Reapers.

The indoctrination in the IT, however, causes Shepard to have to fight his own subconcsious mind, which is being manipulated and controlled by the Reapers and if he makes the right choice he will somehow fight off these subliminal signals and electromagnetic waves through willpower. Its a sort of meta mindgame that breaks the fourth wall to trick the player. Indoctrination isn't a trick though - its nothing more than signals. Trying to stop these signals through willpower is like trying to stop soundwaves reaching your ears through willpower. its just not possible, and yet the IT demands it. Its just so different to how indoctrination has been presented throughout the trilogy that I don't believe it.

What about Rachni queen, which resisted indoctrination?

As I see it, even the Geth consensus level was created for that purpose - to see that with Shepard's mind we can make changes in AI mind.

The rachni minds work very differently to Shepard's mind. Saren tries to resist, but can only break free by shooting himself. TIM tries to resist, but can only break free by shooting himself. Benezia - an asari matriarch - can only resist for a few minutes. The asari on Virmire remains indoctrinated and eneds up killing people in ME3 if she lives. Indoctrination is permanent. You cannot simply break free of it by willpower.

Saren, TIM, Benezia, asari - were all indoctrinated already. According to IT Shepard is BEING indoctrinated, and the desicions he makes will result in him breaking free OR becoming like Saren, TIM and others. That makes critical difference here.

[SauliusL]

Sauruz wrote...

NoSpin wrote...

It was part of the plan. Whether it was completely removed or not, indoctrination is hinted at (WHY even include the inky shadows line by the Rachni Queen? Oh, because of the inky shadows in Sheps DREAMS).

Are you saying they were planning IT back in ME1?

It's hard to tell, probably not. But Indoctrination is one of the main Mass effect themes and one of the main Reaper weapons through ALL trilogy.

[Jadebaby]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

In ME2, your failure was a reults of your choices. You don't prepare your team enough, and your team suffers. Choice and consequence. Its a fantastic ending - the death of your squadmates is directly linked to the player's choices. Its your fault if they die.

However, because the suicide mission is triggered unexpectedly, I too, was one of the ones that lost a lot of people on my first run, this pissed me off. But I didn't come on here and crack it, I came on here and learned what I'd need to do for it to not happen again. I guess that's the price you pay for trying to play a game spoiler-free.

In the IT, you're given three choices that are all justifiable in some way and then, regardless of your choices, the game simply tells you that you're right or you're wrong.  You could've prepared the greatest military in the galaxy, brokered peace with on Rannoch, saved the krogan, but none of it matters when deciding if you succeed or fail. In the real endings, the impacts of your choice are less damaging if you've done well throughout the game. In the IT, your choices have literally zero impact. In two of the three choices, regardless of how justifiaible they are, Bioware just tells the player that they're wrong. its not a consequence of anything you've done previously, its just completely out of the blue. If ME2 had ended with three different coloured buttons and the game had told that two of the three, regardless of your previous actions, cause a game over you'd be pretty pissed. Thats the IT.

While I somewhat agree with this, as someone else said, who knows what EC DLC will hold (IT or not). But I can tell you one thing, If IT delivered another base set of choices to reach another ultimate conclusion and said choices let you truely have a paragon/renegade ending, then I'm sure all those deluded paragons who think control and synthesis are the best options because it means everything is solved at the smallest consequence wouldn't actually mind so much as long as they could have a happy ending where no one else dies, through IT.

Also note that the three choices are hardly justifiable........

[GreyLycanTrope]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

All hail Catamaranmaracas,he speaks the truth

Nah, all hail to the Hypnotoad!

At least she might make the endings bearable...and is far more entertaining, funny and original than the OP..

You dare question Catastrophebanana?

I prefer not to encourage Catatonicmango

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 16 juin 2012 - 12:19 .

[SauliusL]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

Who cares if it was removed from the script or was not yet on the script while they were experimenting with gameplay mechanics? The main thing is it was being thought of, even in development stages. So it is far from fan fiction and has at least some credibility even to the biggest cynic.

Thats not proof that its true. At one point they considered the dark energy plot. That doesn't make that true. In one of the earlier scripts, you encounter the VS on Thessia and have to choose between them an Liara. That doesnt make that true. 

You don't know what the writers will be remembered for because if IT is not true, you don't even have a hint what EC will be about. If IT will be true, I would bet with you, they would not be remember for some angry fans, who cry that they chose control and it was not the best ending. In my first playthrough of ME2 I also lost half of my team. I didn't write petitions, I started game from begging and for second playthrough got the perfect ending. I don't see how it could be different with this situation. Let's say your Shepard get's indoctrinated, but sacrifices himself (Like Saren, or TIM) and because of that half of the fleet dies, half of squad members die, but as you have enough EMS the galaxy is saved. It would be a good ending, bitttersweet, but good. Not the best ofcourse, because you got tricked by indoctrination and many died, but reaper threat ended. Do you see my point?

In ME2, your failure was a reults of your choices. You don't prepare your team enough, and your team suffers. Choice and consequence. Its a fantastic ending - the death of your squadmates is directly linked to the player's choices. Its your fault if they die.

In the IT, you're given three choices that are all justifiable in some way and then, regardless of your choices, the game simply tells you that you're right or you're wrong.  You could've prepared the greatest military in the galaxy, brokered peace with on Rannoch, saved the krogan, but none of it matters when deciding if you succeed or fail. In the real endings, the impacts of your choice are less damaging if you've done well throughout the game. In the IT, your choices have literally zero impact. In two of the three choices, regardless of how justifiaible they are, Bioware just tells the player that they're wrong. its not a consequence of anything you've done previously, its just completely out of the blue. If ME2 had ended with three different coloured buttons and the game had told that two of the three, regardless of your previous actions, cause a game over you'd be pretty pissed. Thats the IT.

But the ending in ME3 is also YOUR choices. The same ones as in ME2 suicide mission. I didn't know who to send the ventilation shaft and one of my members died. The same is here - if you didn't get the hints before, you didn't know you are being indoctrinated. You made a choice - with consequenses. That's what Mass effect is all about.

And again, I don't see why all anti ITers think that if you will be indoctrinated it's like "game over". We don't know. We can only guess, but it maybe by just the same as in ME2 - wrong choice - consequenses - team members die, of half of the fleet dies etc etc.. It's the player fault if he didn't get all the hints throughout the game. And he has to be angry not at bioware, but at himself.

[jijeebo]

Oh Catamankeytardis, you should write a book.

Never change, please.

Modifié par jijeebo, 16 juin 2012 - 12:42 .

[Silhouett3]

Right.. I am out of BSN for a few days and radical ANTI-ITers immediatly get delusions of grandeur:

Catamantaloedis wrote...

 The most pathetically astonishing contribution that this community has granted to the Internet is one of the most detestable gathering of unrelated ideas, speculations, non sequiturs, fallacies, optimistic guesses, and genuine idiocies ever assembled among humankind. It is the most vile, repugant denial of apparent truth, being, of course, the ending of the Mass Effect series, which is (quite apparently) meant to be taken at a literal, face value. Therefore I ask, I demand, that each person reevaluate his interpretation of the ending. Do so long, and hard. Finally, realize the delusion of your ways and the fallacy of the Indoctrination Delusion and reject is as it is and as it always has been--the fan fiction of a mentally disturbed 10 year old child which has reached the very levels of religion. It is delusion. It is a lie.

 

OP, you didn't even have a reason do you? Please at least show me a reason, write a post that doesn't solely contain subjective notions and adjectives( like which I lined over) so I can have some context to actually work with... before claiming your argument is objective^_^

[AsheraII]

No matter what, I still see the IT as nothing but an attempt to give meaning to an unfulfilled sense of closure. And people react to it much the same way they react when they have some unfulfilled sense in real life: they fill in the gaps for themselves, start trying to read the future from watching constellations of stars in the night sky. Try to give meaning to meaningless unrelated details. It's a natural course of action for the human mind to try to connect the pieces of the puzzle. Some people are good at it, others keep attaching the ducks' head to the roof of the landrover.

[SauliusL]

AsheraII wrote...

No matter what, I still see the IT as nothing but an attempt to give meaning to an unfulfilled sense of closure. And people react to it much the same way they react when they have some unfulfilled sense in real life: they fill in the gaps for themselves, start trying to read the future from watching constellations of stars in the night sky. Try to give meaning to meaningless unrelated details. It's a natural course of action for the human mind to try to connect the pieces of the puzzle. Some people are good at it, others keep attaching the ducks' head to the roof of the landrover.

In another situation, I would maybe agree with you. However what the real ITers do with analysing the game, confirming or rejecting possible clues/proofs etc. is a wonderful thing. I am surpirsed how many "beautiful minds" have connected into consensus and started matching dots of the puzzle. Ofcourse there are others, who do not fully understand IT, give false or unimportant arguments, but I am talking about a bunch of people who are not ''attaching the ducks' head to the roof of the landrover"

[Memnon]

I've always maintained that the endings were simply sloppily written and rushed, but have held out hope that it was really a dream sequence and done by design - kind of an expect the worse, hope for the best attitude. I don't understand why people feel the need to be jerks towards others who want to hope for a better ending; let people discuss theories and trade ideas, what else is there to do till EC comes out

[SauliusL]

BTW, let's not categorise people. Not all ITers are the same and their motivation into believing the theory is the same. It's the same as to say - all IT haters are teenagers who are deeply angry that they made the wrong choice (if IT is true) and they don't fit to the mass so they protest. But it's not true.

[Samtheman63]

SauliusL wrote...

 all IT haters are teenagers who are deeply angry that they made the wrong choice

[TurianFrigate]

IT has some damn good evidence and so far all the IT haters I've seen bring up some stupid proof that IT is wrong and their proof is usually garbage. I don't get it it why do you hate IT it has so much good evidence backing up it that why can't you accept it. Also it can fix the ending everyone hates. Do you even have a good reason to hate it?

[dreman9999]

Sauruz wrote...

NoSpin wrote...

It was part of the plan. Whether it was completely removed or not, indoctrination is hinted at (WHY even include the inky shadows line by the Rachni Queen? Oh, because of the inky shadows in Sheps DREAMS).

Are you saying they were planning IT back in ME1?

What type of question is this? That's when Indoctrination came in the story. Ofcourse they did. It's called foreshadowing.

[estebanus]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

NoSpin wrote...

It was part of the plan. Whether it was completely removed or not, indoctrination is hinted at (WHY even include the inky shadows line by the Rachni Queen? Oh, because of the inky shadows in Sheps DREAMS).

Are you saying they were planning IT back in ME1?

What type of question is this? That's when Indoctrination came in the story. Ofcourse they did. It's called foreshadowing.

No it wasn't.

Indoctrination was described back then, it wasn't foreshadowed. There's a difference.

[Tealjaker94]

TurianFrigate wrote...

IT has some damn good evidence and so far all the IT haters I've seen bring up some stupid proof that IT is wrong and their proof is usually garbage. I don't get it it why do you hate IT it has so much good evidence backing up it that why can't you accept it. Also it can fix the ending everyone hates. Do you even have a good reason to hate it?

ITers claim they have found evidence in the game for IT. That means that bioware must have planned IT beforehand. But here we are now over 3 months after release and the EC still hasn't even been given a release date. Now if bioware really had planned IT, they would know that many people would be unhappy with the ending as is. They would've been sure to have the EC ready to save their plummeting sales within a month of release. That didn't happen. Now bioware could still possibly use IT to save face, but the endings we got are the ones bioware wanted to give us.

[Seival]

Catamantaloedis wrote...


The Indoctrination Theory is a weak minded delusion.

Exactly.

[Stegoceras]

TurianFrigate wrote...

IT has some damn good evidence and so far all the IT haters I've seen bring up some stupid proof that IT is wrong and their proof is usually garbage. I don't get it it why do you hate IT it has so much good evidence backing up it that why can't you accept it. Also it can fix the ending everyone hates. Do you even have a good reason to hate it?

Lets see, for me personally that would be of the top of my head:

1. You have an incomplete game or a really shoddy story if you believe it's complete at this moment. Now some may not find this a problem, I'm however not to keen about paying full price for something that clearly isn't done.
2. You erode choice by saying Destroy is the only option to pull you out of Indoctrination. As a game-series that revolves around making choices it seems a bit poor to shoehorn everyone into the same choice at the end.
3. The whole "it was a dream"(I know you techinically don't consider it to be a dream, but similarities are mostly the same) is such a cop-out and often just a poor solution to bad writing. To be honest don't you just hate it when a movie does it?

As for proof I have yet to see any Indoctrination Theorist give any proper reason for both the ending cinematics for all 3 endings and the fact of the splash screen that remains the same no matter the choice.

In conlcusion, it may be true, it may not be. Saying we should accept because you like it personally and believe in it is a bit of a moot point.

[DeathScepter]

it is not a weak minded delusion and it is better than the crap we got for an ending.

[Ageless Face]

TurianFrigate wrote...

IT has some damn good evidence and so far all the IT haters I've seen bring up some stupid proof that IT is wrong and their proof is usually garbage. I don't get it it why do you hate IT it has so much good evidence backing up it that why can't you accept it. Also it can fix the ending everyone hates. Do you even have a good reason to hate it?

First of all, we are allowed to bring proofs that your evidences are wrong just as much as you allowed to bring evidences at all. 

Second, our proofs are not useally garbage. Just because you don't like to see them does not make them any less true.

third, we are allowed to hate the IT as much as you can hate the ending taken at face value.

Forth, you have compelling evidences, but those are mostly the codex. You bring trees, weapon bobs, eye colors, and harby's voice which can be anyone's elses as evidences. Those are NOT evidences since they have been disporeven, yet a lot of people continue to bring them to the arguments. And you base the theory on specualtions.

Fifth, we can just not believe it. Not everyone can believe the IT.

sixth, Yes, we have good reasons to hate it. It doesn't help the plot, doesn't give us knowlage about the reapers. And of course the reason that the IT is taking out our choices away and say to us "choose destroy . If you don't, then you are wrong and stupid" (I know there are some that don't think that, but the IT for now bases it self that destroy is the only option). And it means that BioWare gave us incomplete game.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 16 juin 2012 - 01:39 .

[Tealjaker94]

DeathScepter wrote...

it is not a weak minded delusion and it is better than the crap we got for an ending.

Whether or not it would be better is a matter of opinion. The fact is that it's simply not true.

[OrginaVendor]

IT is a good idea that will probably work very well for most of the fans, I think. Not even talking about the "evidence" of IT already found within your copy of ME3 but the high probability that Bioware coulf have an indoctrination of Shepard work seamlessly for most of us. The only question now is if they'll do it, or even better, of they've done it already. Another good thing about the It is that it allows us an unspoiled "new" ending without changing the "old" one.

But I'm a becoming more skeptical of that ever happening. Though as a childish dreamer I actually kinda wish Bioware would something even more spectacular than IT(seeing as IT is already spoiled)

[Seboist]

How is IT better? Nothing is resolved and that "false" end sequence was just a waste of time. Not to mention to provides even LESS choice which is a major gripe against the endings in the first place. We essentially go from "we fight or we die" to "we fight AND we die" with IT.

I'm sorry but "bad writing" and "wiping the slate clean for future installments" are the clear logical explanations.

[TurianFrigate]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

TurianFrigate wrote...

IT has some damn good evidence and so far all the IT haters I've seen bring up some stupid proof that IT is wrong and their proof is usually garbage. I don't get it it why do you hate IT it has so much good evidence backing up it that why can't you accept it. Also it can fix the ending everyone hates. Do you even have a good reason to hate it?

ITers claim they have found evidence in the game for IT. That means that bioware must have planned IT beforehand. But here we are now over 3 months after release and the EC still hasn't even been given a release date. Now if bioware really had planned IT, they would know that many people would be unhappy with the ending as is. They would've been sure to have the EC ready to save their plummeting sales within a month of release. That didn't happen. Now bioware could still possibly use IT to save face, but the endings we got are the ones bioware wanted to give us.

Personally I rate the chances that Bioware planned the IT at about 25% still if they didn't create it then I say feel free to adopt this theory and make a good ending. I say that if they planned it it was because they didn't have enough time to create a good ending so they started creating these clues for the IT at the final stages of the development. EC takes so much time to make because if they use the IT the writers have to take some time creating the new ending that would rock. In the mean time the rest of the development team is creating these multiplayer packs to keep the fans busy until the EC comes out or maybe the development team is creating/fixing some
new stuff for the single player. But thats just my opinion and hey everyone is entitled to their own opinion right.