896 réponses à ce sujet

[OrginaVendor]

Nah nvm

Modifié par OrginaVendor, 16 juin 2012 - 02:44 .

[malakim2099]

Seboist wrote...

malakim2099 wrote...

RukiaKuchki wrote...

Do you think it could be possible that the EC won't prove or disprove IT? That would be fun...

That would be hilarious, and I think we'd have out and out bloodshed between the pro-IT and anti-IT groups. Me, I'm leaning pro-IT mainly due to the vehement juvenile vitriol that spills from the anti-IT folks. That and I'd like to believe that the writers were being maliciously clever as opposed to just bad.

(And there's plenty of evidence for it to go either way. Since OP doesn't need to put any in, I won't either, but there's quite a few excellent videos for pro-IT. Angry Joe summarizes it rather well if you hunt on the youtubes for it.)

Always good to see an ITer state their "theory" is based on Faith in the face of countless examples of shoddy writing such as the Cerberus superpower,space terminator,lazarus and the crucible.

Oh, I won't deny there is shoddy writing. But you need to read the whole post. Specifically what I italized. IT is a theory based on facts presented in the game, it is not "faith-based" as you and most other trolls would like to believe. Here, watch this, then tell me that IT has no basis whatsoever. 

(Not saying it's absolute truth, but I personally prefer it to just "the endings suck!")

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...

...You are dreaming. ME3 was not released yet. And this thread is just your personal nightmare.

WAKE UP, dreman9999 !

Okay, I don't want to laugh but...


 

[Simocrates]

Seboist wrote...

Zanza86 wrote...

The original IT thread has plenty of evidence that the followers believe supports their theory. All I've seen from non-IT believers is "nah BioWare are dumb, bad writing, so dumb, retake something we never actually had, hold the imaginary line, hold the wallet by not buying free DLC."

If by "evidence" you mean grasping at straws by trying to find deep meaning in debris in the "gasp" scene, weapon bobbing(in a game full of bad animations no less) and noclipping to see things the player was never supposed to see then yeah.

I rest my case.

[Ageless Face]

OrginaVendor wrote...

Oh come on! Stop picking on the kid, lol. Especially if it's that obvious that you can easily disprove his "theory". How about this. IT can work pretty well without changing our current ending.. If it is implemented. Comment

How? Do you mean that it is all not a dream in Shepard's mind and Shepard just got indoc by the catalyst?

Otherwise, it's changing the ending.

EDIT: Okay, saw you deleted the post. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 16 juin 2012 - 02:46 .

[OrginaVendor]

Oh dear lord. You ppl are so bad your giving the anti-IT ppl a renewed sense of superiority. Sorry I ain't participating

[AsheraII]

dreman9999 wrote...

What do you call TIM controling Shepard and Anderson  with indoctrination then?

Is TIM a Reaper? No. TIM is a HUMAN who suffered a failed/anomalous Reaper Indoctrination. And while Tim has control over Shepards' body, he interestingly has no control over Shepards thoughts. Shepard is capable of discussion with TIM. And that's a pretty big difference over other indoctrinations, which all involve actual mind control.

Not to mention the control option: Starchild specifically states that TIM could not control the Reapers because the Reapers have control over him. Yet, Shepard CAN select the control option. Ergo, the Reapers have NO control over Shepard. And that's one of many things where the IT completely fails: it renders one of the ending options obsolete!

The Synthesis option is also rendered obsolete by IT: it basically turns humanity into a new breed of Reapers. Reapers v2 if you wish. And from the looks of it, that wasn't the intention of the Synthesis option either.

Only the Destroy option is really supported by the IT: It suits those who played through the entire game within 2 days, ending with an EMS of barely 2k, racing past the majority of the side quests, missing the whole
point of the game and story, who basically want to give the final blow to the Reapers and see YOU WON, YOU SAVED THE UNIVERSE in double bold gold font on their screen. Sorry, wrong game.

[Ageless Face]

Zanza86 wrote...

The original IT thread has plenty of evidence that the followers believe supports their theory. All I've seen from non-IT believers is "nah BioWare are dumb, bad writing, so dumb, retake something we never actually had, hold the imaginary line, hold the wallet by not buying free DLC."

You didn't look hard enough. There are a lot of theories about the ending that aren't IT.

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The proof that is passible it's not real is the fact that there is no proof that it's real and where you meet the star child. Nothing in that scene makes sense. Also, if your facing a race of machines that can warp the perspective of you mind, it's wise to suspect what you see afteryou get knocked out while fighting these machines and waking up later.

You don't have any proof it's not real. Thus, it is real for now until you will find clear proof it isn't. 

And if I'll see a gaigentic machines that not a second before tried to shoot me you can bet I won't think they want me by their side as their slave. There can be better ways for them to make Shepard indoctrinated.

For first of all...Tell me introduce you to the 3 theories of IT....
1. Dream theory. This is the most popular one that everyone knows. It the one that stated everything after Shepard is down by harbinger is an indoctriantion dream...This one stands out by having Shepard still on earth.

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

3. Inflence theory. This is the one that has everything as real but it one that the reaper are trying to subminally influence Shepards choices with indoctrination and warping his perpective. This is inflence by the idea how reaper are more convincing with indoctrination. This also can murge with Hallucination theory as well with the star child or have the scene that happen be real in away.(Meaning the star child can be an illusion but Shepard is at that place.) 


Not that only on has Shepard knocked out....
Here's the thing you seem to not get, I never said what was seen was not real. I just said that it could be fake...

Say the end is real or fake is a speculation. No one would know. Because of at anything you see in the end should be under suspect because you don't know if it's real. Add, the is nothing to support the asumtion that the end is real.
And that where you digging your self your own hole. You can't see that the ending needs to be looked at under suspect.

[OrginaVendor]

Nope I meant that in the original IT form, the one where the ending is a dream from the laser-hits-you part onward

[Samtheman63]

AsheraII wrote...

Only the Destroy option is really supported by the IT: It suits those who played through the entire game within 2 days, ending with an EMS of barely 2k, racing past the majority of the side quests, missing the whole
point of the game and story, who basically want to give the final blow to the Reapers and see YOU WON, YOU SAVED THE UNIVERSE in double bold gold font on their screen. Sorry, wrong game.

errr... what?

[dmay7]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Once again the burden of proof is upon the ITers. If you make I point that supports IT then ok, but asking us to prove the ending is real is asinine. Reality, just like innocence, is assumed until proven otherwise.

Explain this:


Explain this:

(Remarkably simmilar aspects, don't you think?)

Explain this:

Kind of weird they would be inverted?

Explain this:

Kind of familiar looking trees, wouldn't you say?

Modifié par dmay7, 16 juin 2012 - 02:51 .

[OrginaVendor]

Wait I think that was more of a Thanix cannon, right? The one that shoots molten metal at a high speed

[malakim2099]

AsheraII wrote...

Only the Destroy option is really supported by the IT: It suits those who played through the entire game within 2 days, ending with an EMS of barely 2k, racing past the majority of the side quests, missing the whole
point of the game and story, who basically want to give the final blow to the Reapers and see YOU WON, YOU SAVED THE UNIVERSE in double bold gold font on their screen. Sorry, wrong game.

It also suits those who worked their ### off throughout the series, because the end goal is, and always has been, Destroy the Reapers. And my EMS was about 6K, thank you.

Nice generalization that doesn't suit the facts, tho. Which fits into my anti-ITer theory.

[dreman9999]

AsheraII wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What do you call TIM controling Shepard and Anderson  with indoctrination then?

Is TIM a Reaper? No. TIM is a HUMAN who suffered a failed/anomalous Reaper Indoctrination. And while Tim has control over Shepards' body, he interestingly has no control over Shepards thoughts. Shepard is capable of discussion with TIM. And that's a pretty big difference over other indoctrinations, which all involve actual mind control.

Not to mention the control option: Starchild specifically states that TIM could not control the Reapers because the Reapers have control over him. Yet, Shepard CAN select the control option. Ergo, the Reapers have NO control over Shepard. And that's one of many things where the IT completely fails: it renders one of the ending options obsolete!

The Synthesis option is also rendered obsolete by IT: it basically turns humanity into a new breed of Reapers. Reapers v2 if you wish. And from the looks of it, that wasn't the intention of the Synthesis option either.

Only the Destroy option is really supported by the IT: It suits those who played through the entire game within 2 days, ending with an EMS of barely 2k, racing past the majority of the side quests, missing the whole
point of the game and story, who basically want to give the final blow to the Reapers and see YOU WON, YOU SAVED THE UNIVERSE in double bold gold font on their screen. Sorry, wrong game.

You don't need to control someone thoughts to indoctriante them. AKA, Bezia and Grayson are examples. Indoctriantion is a physical and Psychlogical mean of mind control. It was a attempt to finally bring Shepard to the advace stage of indoctriantion but it failed, but it does not mean Shepard is not indoctrianted. He can still resist.
So yes, TIM did used indoctriantion on Shepard and Shepard resisted. But how do we know that it stopped?

[llbountyhunter]

Why are we asking for proof? On either side? While I support IT its still a theory, not a law.

Find proof for multi-universes or multi-dimensions. You cant. And yet these are the most turned to theories in modern science.

Not trying to compare IT to these theories of course, just trying to show that the asking for proof will not work.

All of these works rely on very conclusive evidence. And just like all these theories IT has its flaws as well.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

For first of all...Tell me introduce you to the 3 theories of IT....
1. Dream theory. This is the most popular one that everyone knows. It the one that stated everything after Shepard is down by harbinger is an indoctriantion dream...This one stands out by having Shepard still on earth.

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

3. Inflence theory. This is the one that has everything as real but it one that the reaper are trying to subminally influence Shepards choices with indoctrination and warping his perpective. This is inflence by the idea how reaper are more convincing with indoctrination. This also can murge with Hallucination theory as well with the star child or have the scene that happen be real in away.(Meaning the star child can be an illusion but Shepard is at that place.) 


Not that only on has Shepard knocked out....
Here's the thing you seem to not get, I never said what was seen was not real. I just said that it could be fake...

Say the end is real or fake is a speculation. No one would know. Because of at anything you see in the end should be under suspect because you don't know if it's real. Add, the is nothing to support the asumtion that the end is real.
And that where you digging your self your own hole. You can't see that the ending needs to be looked at under suspect.

And you talked about "give me proof the ending is real". You didn't say it could be fake. Which, by the way, cannot really be proven.

I have no problem that you will specualte. I have a problem that you seeing your sepulation as fact. It's not. I have my own specualtions. I don't look at them as more than they are. Speculations. 

And no, the ending doesn't have to be looked in another way. It was never told to us we should. The ending is forcing us to take it at face value. You don't want to, that's fine. Don't think you are right by doing it. Cause you are right as much as I am by looking at face value.

[The Spamming Troll]

AsheraII wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What do you call TIM controling Shepard and Anderson  with indoctrination then?

Is TIM a Reaper? No. TIM is a HUMAN who suffered a failed/anomalous Reaper Indoctrination. And while Tim has control over Shepards' body, he interestingly has no control over Shepards thoughts. Shepard is capable of discussion with TIM. And that's a pretty big difference over other indoctrinations, which all involve actual mind control.

Not to mention the control option: Starchild specifically states that TIM could not control the Reapers because the Reapers have control over him. Yet, Shepard CAN select the control option. Ergo, the Reapers have NO control over Shepard. And that's one of many things where the IT completely fails: it renders one of the ending options obsolete!

The Synthesis option is also rendered obsolete by IT: it basically turns humanity into a new breed of Reapers. Reapers v2 if you wish. And from the looks of it, that wasn't the intention of the Synthesis option either.

Only the Destroy option is really supported by the IT: It suits those who played through the entire game within 2 days, ending with an EMS of barely 2k, racing past the majority of the side quests, missing the whole
point of the game and story, who basically want to give the final blow to the Reapers and see YOU WON, YOU SAVED THE UNIVERSE in double bold gold font on their screen. Sorry, wrong game.

the question you didnt answer is:

how did TIM make shepard kill anderson?

becasue shepard most definately pointed a gun at anderson, and then pulled the trigger.

explain, then.

[OrginaVendor]

malakim2099 wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

Only the Destroy option is really supported by the IT: It suits those who played through the entire game within 2 days, ending with an EMS of barely 2k, racing past the majority of the side quests, missing the whole
point of the game and story, who basically want to give the final blow to the Reapers and see YOU WON, YOU SAVED THE UNIVERSE in double bold gold font on their screen. Sorry, wrong game.

It also suits those who worked their ### off throughout the series, because the end goal is, and always has been, Destroy the Reapers. And my EMS was about 6K, thank you.

Nice generalization that doesn't suit the facts, tho. Which fits into my anti-ITer theory.

I didn't want to participate in this discussion which is on an really over-used front, but the original IT states that it is a dream, you didn't really destroy the collectors, only fought off indoctrination for the time being. It's not perfect, but it can still provide us with a   Varied ending that's better than your assuming ignorance on the subject

[MaximizedAction]

Zanza86 wrote...

The original IT thread has plenty of evidence that the followers believe supports their theory. All I've seen from non-IT believers is "nah BioWare are dumb, bad writing, so dumb, retake something we never actually had, hold the imaginary line, hold the wallet by not buying free DLC."

This!

If this were a literature discussion, then arguments for why you are defending your interpretation and dismissing the other like "the author was just lazy" is not an acceptable argument. You have to trust the author!
If you don't, then you have no point at staying with the discussion. If you don't like the book, you go and pick another one.

I admit, that for the first month after finishing the game I too have thought that Bioware screwed up, and also posted it like an idiot around the BSN. But then while reading a few more literary takes on ME3 overall story I knew that nobody can screw up that much. And then I discovered IT.

TL;DR: Start looking more into the overall story structure of ME3 and make up your own mind!

[OrginaVendor]

Oops. Destroy the * reapers I mean. In ME3

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

For first of all...Tell me introduce you to the 3 theories of IT....
1. Dream theory. This is the most popular one that everyone knows. It the one that stated everything after Shepard is down by harbinger is an indoctriantion dream...This one stands out by having Shepard still on earth.

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

3. Inflence theory. This is the one that has everything as real but it one that the reaper are trying to subminally influence Shepards choices with indoctrination and warping his perpective. This is inflence by the idea how reaper are more convincing with indoctrination. This also can murge with Hallucination theory as well with the star child or have the scene that happen be real in away.(Meaning the star child can be an illusion but Shepard is at that place.) 

Which one do you believe personally? I'm curious.

[OrginaVendor]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Why are we asking for proof? On either side? While I support IT its still a theory, not a law.

Find proof for multi-universes or multi-dimensions. You cant. And yet these are the most turned to theories in modern science.

Not trying to compare IT to these theories of course, just trying to show that the asking for proof will not work.

All of these works rely on very conclusive evidence. And just like all these theories IT has its flaws as well.

There's some fire. Finally. 

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

For first of all...Tell me introduce you to the 3 theories of IT....
1. Dream theory. This is the most popular one that everyone knows. It the one that stated everything after Shepard is down by harbinger is an indoctriantion dream...This one stands out by having Shepard still on earth.

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more know theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

3. Inflence theory. This is the one that has everything as real but it one that the reaper are trying to subminally influence Shepards choices with indoctrination and warping his perpective. This is inflence by the idea how reaper are more convincing with indoctrination. This also can murge with Hallucination theory as well with the star child or have the scene that happen be real in away.(Meaning the star child can be an illusion but Shepard is at that place.) 


Not that only on has Shepard knocked out....
Here's the thing you seem to not get, I never said what was seen was not real. I just said that it could be fake...

Say the end is real or fake is a speculation. No one would know. Because of at anything you see in the end should be under suspect because you don't know if it's real. Add, the is nothing to support the asumtion that the end is real.
And that where you digging your self your own hole. You can't see that the ending needs to be looked at under suspect.

And you talked about "give me proof the ending is real". You didn't say it could be fake. Which, by the way, cannot really be proven.

I have no problem that you will specualte. I have a problem that you seeing your sepulation as fact. It's not. I have my own specualtions. I don't look at them as more than they are. Speculations. 

And no, the ending doesn't have to be looked in another way. It was never told to us we should. The ending is forcing us to take it at face value. You don't want to, that's fine. Don't think you are right by doing it. Cause you are right as much as I am by looking at face value.

Asking for proof of something doesn't mean your saying that another point is real. When I asked if there's any proof the ending is real, did I say that the ending is not real?
Nor have I given any statement that i think the spectualtion that It's fake is fact. I have yet to say so. If you who thinks I'm saying it's a fact that it's a dream.
And the ending is vague with nothing cleary explain. That's not something you take at face value, especially when it's well known that the writer wanted the ending to be specualated over.
You really can say what is real whne your facing an enemy that warps the mind.

[Ageless Face]

MaximizedAction wrote...

This!

If this were a literature discussion, then arguments for why you are defending your interpretation and dismissing the other like "the author was just lazy" is not an acceptable argument. You have to trust the author!
If you don't, then you have no point at staying with the discussion. If you don't like the book, you go and pick another one.

I admit, that for the first month after finishing the game I too have thought that Bioware screwed up, and also posted it like an idiot around the BSN. But then while reading a few more literary takes on ME3 overall story I knew that nobody can screw up that much. And then I discovered IT.

TL;DR: Start looking more into the overall story structure of ME3 and make up your own mind!

Please, not every person that don't like the IT is only stating that BioWare was lazy. There are other theories on the BSN. There are speculations. It's not only two groups, Pro-IT or anti-IT +anti-BioWare.