896 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That's not a reason to take the ending as face value at all.  Just because you see something doesn't mean it real. These are machine that can warp the mind, they can esailly show you anything. The fact that they can leaves the ending at suspect.

No it's not the reason we should take it at face value. It's the reason I take it at face value. I am not given a different way to look at it. I can't argue with the catalyst, I can't kill try and kill the catalyst, I can't go back, I see the reapers leave Earth, I see the normandy was taken away from Earth. I don't see Shepard answering to the reapers at the end. I don't see the reapers coming back and kill everyone. We don't even know that Shepard was on Earth in the breath scene. Just that s/he is alive.

Nothing tells me to question the catalyst. So, I don't (at least wether he is lying. I question his logic quite a lot). 

But your reason makes no sense. As I said, the reaper can show you anything reguading results of the choices, that's why I'm asking for proof that it's real.

[OrginaVendor]

jijeebo wrote...

OrginaVendor wrote...

You are the ones who started scoffing, lol. Nobody demeaned you ppl for not bothering with IT, Anti-IT ppl are the ones riding on their "superiority" over ITers

That is absolutely false.

I was more or less indifferent about IT until I got called stupid a million times for asking questions about parts of the theory I didn't understand or thought didn't make sense.


Both sides have been as bad as each other in regards to elitism... Such is the internet.

Well i looked into the wrong side of the forum, sorry. Although right now PreciousIsland is being a real asswipe. No he is not stupid, just someone who decided he disliked ppl who support IT theory the moment he saw one, probably didn't even bother finding out more about it

[dreman9999]

PreciousIsland wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Stegoceras wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
]Why give a mirror of a tree in a room with no trees?
Also, it takes more work to make something similer to something.

Because the object isn't a true mirror. It's just a a shader. They did the same in Swtor, where a droid in room had a room reflected on his dome, while in the next room another droid would have the exact same room reflection. Also mirrors would be complete resource sinks.

I presume that there was a design earlier that had trees in it, hence the shader on the floor. Someone decide trees had to go, shader was forgotten. Besides nowhere around Shepard will you find those patricular trees, so unless they are completly imaginary.....well, I honestly can't see how it would support Indoctrination either way.

. Then why is floor is reflecting everything else in the room? And give proof of these trees they were planing before.

If you have to look this hard there is nothing there.

But we didn't look hard, we just looked on the floor and saw the reflection of the rest of the room as well. Even the battle in the back ground is reflected on the floor.

[dreman9999]

PreciousIsland wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Etereoooo wrote...

Ending as it is suck.
Ending as it is + I.T. suck.
Problem?

I.T. is still a bad ending, so Biow. decided to destroy his fanbase only to use some sort of mind****? Sweet.

Why is IT a bad ending?

Because the dream itself has to say something compelling.  IT is created in response to the impression that the ending was a bunch of garbage and IT would negate it.  There is no point in even having the dream (just have whatever comes after it) if the dream has no narrative purpose.

Who said it was a dream...IT has 3 theories...
1. Dream theory. This is the most popular one that everyone knows. It the one that stated everything after Shepard is down by harbinger is an indoctriantion dream...This one stands out by having Shepard still on earth.

2. Hallucination Theory. This is the second more known theory. It's one where Shepard is awake but is theoried that every thing he sees before him is an illusion or soon end up being in his head only. This one can have Shepard on the citadel but has the entire converstion with TIM and Anderson an illusion of indoctrination as well as the Star child.

3. Inflence theory. This is the one that has everything as real but it one that the reaper are trying to subminally influence Shepards choices with indoctrination and warping his perpective. This is inflence by the idea how reaper are more convincing with indoctrination. This also can murge with Hallucination theory as well with the star child or have the scene that happen be real in away.(Meaning the star child can be an illusion but Shepard is at that place.) 

Modifié par dreman9999, 16 juin 2012 - 04:05 .

[OrginaVendor]

PreciousIsland wrote...

PreciousIsland wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Etereoooo wrote...

Ending as it is suck.
Ending as it is + I.T. suck.
Problem?

I.T. is still a bad ending, so Biow. decided to destroy his fanbase only to use some sort of mind****? Sweet.

Why is IT a bad ending?

Because the dream itself has to say something compelling.  IT is created in response to the impression that the ending was a bunch of garbage and IT would negate it.  There is no point in even having the dream (just have whatever comes after it) if the dream has no narrative purpose.

Do you have an answer to this, OrginaVendor?  Or are you just going to keep doing what I accuse you of doing and saying that I can't understand the brilliance of IT theory with 100% of my puny brain?

There is an explanation for that in IT, but you probably won't be convinced by it cos you won't even read it at all.

EDIT: not exactly the one above me though.. he didn't put it too well. Anyway even if he did you'd be so focused on reasserting your superiority so I won't bother explaining IT to you anyway. Though i think you'd be pretty entertaining in a flame war. Wanna start one now?

Modifié par OrginaVendor, 16 juin 2012 - 04:08 .

[jijeebo]

Stornskar wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

OrginaVendor wrote...

You are the ones who started scoffing, lol. Nobody demeaned you ppl for not bothering with IT, Anti-IT ppl are the ones riding on their "superiority" over ITers

That is absolutely false.

I was more or less indifferent about IT until I got called stupid a million times for asking questions about parts of the theory I didn't understand or thought didn't make sense.


Both sides have been as bad as each other in regards to elitism... Such is the internet.

I don't know, starting a thread that is titled, "Anyone who thinks such-and-such is delusional and weak minded" reeks of superiority and condescension ... I've been something of a cynic regarind IT, and have asked plenty of questions without my intelligence being question or being insulted. I engage in dialogue instead of throwing out insults and ad hominem attacks ... I've found most of the IT folks to be willing to discuss things rationally, especially in the 3000+ post thread. 

That's just the OP, he makes threads like this all the time about different topics.

Like I said, both sides have bad eggs... And I guess I've been unlucky in who engaged me in conversation.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

But your reason makes no sense. As I said, the reaper can show you anything reguading results of the choices, that's why I'm asking for proof that it's real.

Why is my reason makes no sense?

Why yours makes more sense than mine?

Even if the reapers can show you anything they want, that doesn't mean they did.

And like I said, there are better ways for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard. Kidnappeing, for example. Why take the hard way, why give Shepard the time to build an army when the reapers can end it so quickly?

[jijeebo]

OrginaVendor wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

OrginaVendor wrote...

You are the ones who started scoffing, lol. Nobody demeaned you ppl for not bothering with IT, Anti-IT ppl are the ones riding on their "superiority" over ITers

That is absolutely false.

I was more or less indifferent about IT until I got called stupid a million times for asking questions about parts of the theory I didn't understand or thought didn't make sense.


Both sides have been as bad as each other in regards to elitism... Such is the internet.

Well i looked into the wrong side of the forum, sorry. Although right now PreciousIsland is being a real asswipe. No he is not stupid, just someone who decided he disliked ppl who support IT theory the moment he saw one, probably didn't even bother finding out more about it

Don't worry about it.


And yeah, some people seem hellbent on turning IT into something that lets them feel superior to other forumites.

[Stegoceras]

dreman9999 wrote...

Stegoceras wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
]Why give a mirror of a tree in a room with no trees?
Also, it takes more work to make something similer to something.

Because the object isn't a true mirror. It's just a a shader. They did the same in Swtor, where a droid in room had a room reflected on his dome, while in the next room another droid would have the exact same room reflection. Also mirrors would be complete resource sinks.

I presume that there was a design earlier that had trees in it, hence the shader on the floor. Someone decide trees had to go, shader was forgotten. Besides nowhere around Shepard will you find those patricular trees, so unless they are completly imaginary.....well, I honestly can't see how it would support Indoctrination either way.

. Then why is floor is reflecting everything else in the room? And give proof of these trees they were planing before.

Trees there, shader made, trees removed, shader left....What part don't you understand?

Also seriously asking for me to proof my possible explanation, sorry mate, but that's just straw grasping. Besides how else will you explain the trees, how do they tie in with Shepard and the Indoctrination theory?

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But your reason makes no sense. As I said, the reaper can show you anything reguading results of the choices, that's why I'm asking for proof that it's real.

Why is my reason makes no sense?

Why yours makes more sense than mine?

Even if the reapers can show you anything they want, that doesn't mean they did.

And like I said, there are better ways for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard. Kidnappeing, for example. Why take the hard way, why give Shepard the time to build an army when the reapers can end it so quickly?

You basicly said It's real because you saw it even thought the perspective used to see it is suspect. If you understand that it's a seculation to see the ending as real or fake then it sould be logic to not make a calculation based off it.
What you you not understanding is making any dission based on what seen in the ending is a mistake if you don't know what it what. Being undersuspect is enough to not use it for any calulation.

Modifié par dreman9999, 16 juin 2012 - 04:25 .

[dreman9999]

Stegoceras wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Stegoceras wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
]Why give a mirror of a tree in a room with no trees?
Also, it takes more work to make something similer to something.

Because the object isn't a true mirror. It's just a a shader. They did the same in Swtor, where a droid in room had a room reflected on his dome, while in the next room another droid would have the exact same room reflection. Also mirrors would be complete resource sinks.

I presume that there was a design earlier that had trees in it, hence the shader on the floor. Someone decide trees had to go, shader was forgotten. Besides nowhere around Shepard will you find those patricular trees, so unless they are completly imaginary.....well, I honestly can't see how it would support Indoctrination either way.

. Then why is floor is reflecting everything else in the room? And give proof of these trees they were planing before.

Trees there, shader made, trees removed, shader left....What part don't you understand?

Also seriously asking for me to proof my possible explanation, sorry mate, but that's just straw grasping. Besides how else will you explain the trees, how do they tie in with Shepard and the Indoctrination theory?

But you don't have proof that is is a shader error. Why should I take anything you say with any validy with out proof. And asking for proof is not grasping forstraws.

[Humakt83]

@OP: You have a tumor in your brain. It is making you mad. We must operate.

[AsheraII]

dreman9999 wrote...

Why give a mirror of a tree in a room with no trees?
Also, it takes more work to make something similer to something.

Completely false in computer generated designs. To make something have a similar look (intentionally or not!!!):
copy -> paste -> tweak.
It beats creating similar objects (like, uhhmmmmm TREES) from scratch every single time.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

You basicly said It's real because you saw it even thought the perspective used to see it is suspect. If you understand that it's a seculation to see the ending as real or fake then it sould be logic to not make a calculation based off it.

Wha...?

I said I'm taking the ending at face value. You can still not look at it that way, but from what I interpreted from the ending, I should look at it in face value. 

I don't understand what's the problem here.

[OrginaVendor]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But your reason makes no sense. As I said, the reaper can show you anything reguading results of the choices, that's why I'm asking for proof that it's real.

Why is my reason makes no sense?

Why yours makes more sense than mine?

Even if the reapers can show you anything they want, that doesn't mean they did.

And like I said, there are better ways for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard. Kidnappeing, for example. Why take the hard way, why give Shepard the time to build an army when the reapers can end it so quickly?

? Does the reapers know where shepard is to kidnap him/her? Final mission on Earth is when harbinger manages to knock Shepard cold, probably still think Shepard is useful enough indoctrinated, and begins finalising his/her indoctrination. The dream sequence and all, there are other clues. (not visual or audio, many of those are weak evidence, i concede. but plotwise as well)

All in all, if IT really comes to fruitation, i believe many people who are saying its a bad idea would appreciate it as a way to give a better new ending without scrapping this old one(instead relegating it as a dream scene experienced while Harbinger focuses on indoctrinating shepard). Have some ideas on how that might turn out

[llbountyhunter]

Stegoceras wrote...


Trees there, shader made, trees removed, shader left....What part don't you understand?

Also seriously asking for me to proof my possible explanation, sorry mate, but that's just straw grasping. Besides how else will you explain the trees, how do they tie in with Shepard and the Indoctrination theory?

perfectly plausible explination. but if you use that for everything in IT, then that means bioware made ALOT of very odd mistakes that only occure only in the last ten minutes. sure there are a frew problems here and there throughout the game, but the last few minutes lose all consitency. 

bioware also said that they choreographed everything in the end down to the last detail....  

of course if the ending was mean to be taken litteraly... lets hope they dont choreograph anything ever again...

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 16 juin 2012 - 04:28 .

[shodiswe]

The problem with disproving the IT is that there is no proof of it to begin with, it's jsut a lot of loose ends that people have been speculationg and fanticising about... It's like an old fashiend witchhunt, it would never hold in any court it the purpose was to prove a crome had hapend, assuming the indoctrination was the crime.

The best proof against the IT is the lack of proof to the contrary. There is no single piece of evidence that tells us 100% that Shepard was indoctrinated, or that shepard was indoctrinated to the lvl needed for the IT to be valid. Reused graphics or Keeper salvaged materials is no proof of anything.

To me IT seems to have become a religious cult that's more interested in protecting it's "Faith" thereby all evidence and reasoning would be pointless. Secondly since all the evidence for IT are loosely knit anomalies with no explanation or indication given by the originator of this piece of art/story any of these things can be interpreted in one of hundreds of different ways. Only afew would intercept with IT, and for IT to hold all anomalies must be interpreted in a way that supports IT or it fails.

However, since IT is no longer about reasoning or logic or proof but a leap of "Faith" there is nothing left to discuss. The only valid question is, do you support IT as your religion? Does it comfort you when the ending becommes to painful, does it bring you solave when shepard stands there saying he/she doesn't know. Does it bring you a feeling of relief each time the Catalyst tells you the "truth" that shepard won't question, that doesn't matter because you have your "Faith"? Then you are an IT cultist.
Normaly I wouldn't care at all but it's getting a little tiresome to see an IT person jump into every thread and say it's untrue mention something about IT and link the IT threads that have been bumped to the top of the forums for moths... We all know there are there thank you very much. We have seen them, it's hard to miss the works of the space jehovas of Mass effect.
I'm sure the future of the Mass effect francise will picture Sheard like some kind of messia among pretty much all the races in the galaxy... Not sure about the Batarians , they could be the exception but Sheaprd did save them aswell.
I'm not looking for an opportunity to bash anyone in particular idea/s but all this IT evangelism is getting out of hand, I was hoping it would quiet down after a while. Maybe the EC will slow it down even if it won't route it out. Having their visions fail and proven wrong and forcing them to reevaluate didn't disband the Jehovas. They just adapted and whatever hapend they would "edit" their beliefs to keep it alive.

I wonder what it will sound like when the 5th installment is about to hit.. Well people IT didn't get proven in the 4th installment but we found a lot of anomalities indicating that something weird is indeed going on, out belief is stronger than ever before, the 5th game will prove it!

I'm actualy starting to look forward to the EC even if it's crap.. I'm sure a few things will amuse me at the very least. And I love the ME universe even if the ME3 ending was horrible in it's execution. New cinematics will be welcome.

[llbountyhunter]

AsheraII wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Why give a mirror of a tree in a room with no trees?
Also, it takes more work to make something similer to something.

Completely false in computer generated designs. To make something have a similar look (intentionally or not!!!):
copy -> paste -> tweak.
It beats creating similar objects (like, uhhmmmmm TREES) from scratch every single time.

in this case though, only the cube mape were added and not the trees... why? 

why go to the trouble of adding just the cubemaps?


bioware so lazy they added more unessecary detail?

[AsheraII]

dreman9999 wrote...
Then why is floor is reflecting everything else in the room? And give proof of these trees they were planing before.

Give proof, give proof. LOL. I have not seen a SINGLE viable shred of proof for IT which could not be discarded very easily.
I'm sure that some of you regard the appearance of TIM in the sky during ME2 while dealing with the unfinished human reaper as proof as well.

[SauliusL]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But your reason makes no sense. As I said, the reaper can show you anything reguading results of the choices, that's why I'm asking for proof that it's real.

Why is my reason makes no sense?

Why yours makes more sense than mine?

Even if the reapers can show you anything they want, that doesn't mean they did.

And like I said, there are better ways for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard. Kidnappeing, for example. Why take the hard way, why give Shepard the time to build an army when the reapers can end it so quickly?

Indoctrinate by kidnapping??? Do you even know how indoctrination works? It doesn't if the subject knows it's happening to him. It fails. Then only another kind of indoctrination works - which makes you a husk. Did you play the same game as we did?

[wsandista]

This troll threads still alive?

Moar Spiderman!

[OrginaVendor]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You basicly said It's real because you saw it even thought the perspective used to see it is suspect. If you understand that it's a seculation to see the ending as real or fake then it sould be logic to not make a calculation based off it.

Wha...?

I said I'm taking the ending at face value. You can still not look at it that way, but from what I interpreted from the ending, I should look at it in face value. 

I don't understand what's the problem here.

Taking it at face value is not really that hard, lol. Just another unsatisfactory ending to a pretty good game. Just happens that a better explanation for certain people can be found from various events within ME3, and that it could work well for everyone, even, if done right

[llbountyhunter]

shodiswe wrote...

The problem with disproving the IT is that there is no proof of it to begin with, it's jsut a lot of loose ends that people have been speculationg and fanticising about... It's like an old fashiend witchhunt, it would never hold in any court it the purpose was to prove a crome had hapend, assuming the indoctrination was the crime.

The best proof against the IT is the lack of proof to the contrary. There is no single piece of evidence that tells us 100% that Shepard was indoctrinated, or that shepard was indoctrinated to the lvl needed for the IT to be valid. Reused graphics or Keeper salvaged materials is no proof of anything.

To me IT seems to have become a religious cult that's more interested in protecting it's "Faith" thereby all evidence and reasoning would be pointless. Secondly since all the evidence for IT are loosely knit anomalies with no explanation or indication given by the originator of this piece of art/story any of these things can be interpreted in one of hundreds of different ways. Only afew would intercept with IT, and for IT to hold all anomalies must be interpreted in a way that supports IT or it fails.

However, since IT is no longer about reasoning or logic or proof but a leap of "Faith" there is nothing left to discuss. The only valid question is, do you support IT as your religion? Does it comfort you when the ending becommes to painful, does it bring you solave when shepard stands there saying he/she doesn't know. Does it bring you a feeling of relief each time the Catalyst tells you the "truth" that shepard won't question, that doesn't matter because you have your "Faith"? Then you are an IT cultist.
Normaly I wouldn't care at all but it's getting a little tiresome to see an IT person jump into every thread and say it's untrue mention something about IT and link the IT threads that have been bumped to the top of the forums for moths... We all know there are there thank you very much. We have seen them, it's hard to miss the works of the space jehovas of Mass effect.
I'm sure the future of the Mass effect francise will picture Sheard like some kind of messia among pretty much all the races in the galaxy... Not sure about the Batarians , they could be the exception but Sheaprd did save them aswell.
I'm not looking for an opportunity to bash anyone in particular idea/s but all this IT evangelism is getting out of hand, I was hoping it would quiet down after a while. Maybe the EC will slow it down even if it won't route it out. Having their visions fail and proven wrong and forcing them to reevaluate didn't disband the Jehovas. They just adapted and whatever hapend they would "edit" their beliefs to keep it alive.

I wonder what it will sound like when the 5th installment is about to hit.. Well people IT didn't get proven in the 4th installment but we found a lot of anomalities indicating that something weird is indeed going on, out belief is stronger than ever before, the 5th game will prove it!

I'm actualy starting to look forward to the EC even if it's crap.. I'm sure a few things will amuse me at the very least. And I love the ME universe even if the ME3 ending was horrible in it's execution. New cinematics will be welcome.

thats when I stopped reading.

[dreman9999]

AsheraII wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Then why is floor is reflecting everything else in the room? And give proof of these trees they were planing before.

Give proof, give proof. LOL. I have not seen a SINGLE viable shred of proof for IT which could not be discarded very easily.
I'm sure that some of you regard the appearance of TIM in the sky during ME2 while dealing with the unfinished human reaper as proof as well.

TIm controling Shepard With Indoctriantion.

[Ageless Face]

OrginaVendor wrote...

? Does the reapers know where shepard is to kidnap him/her? Final mission on Earth is when harbinger manages to knock Shepard cold, probably still think Shepard is useful enough indoctrinated, and begins finalising his/her indoctrination. The dream sequence and all, there are other clues. (not visual or audio, many of those are weak evidence, i concede. but plotwise as well)

All in all, if IT really comes to fruitation, i believe many people who are saying its a bad idea would appreciate it as a way to give a better new ending without scrapping this old one(instead relegating it as a dream scene experienced while Harbinger focuses on indoctrinating shepard). Have some ideas on how that might turn out

Yeah, they do. Shepard was on Thessia, Shepard was on rannoch, Shepard was on Tuchunka, Shepard was on Earth (at the start). The reapers knew Shepard was there. Why didn't they focused a direct force on Shepard to kidnapp him/her, then indoctrinate, if the reapers wanted Shepard indoctrinated so badly? The IT say the indoctrination has started since Earth. Why didn't the reapers try to make it stronger? Kidnapp Shepard, then Shepard would be at the hands of the reapers. Shepard can sabotage the whole plans to try and fight the reapers.

I don't think the IT is a bad idea. it's actally really brilliant. I myself hate it, however.