896 réponses à ce sujet

[llbountyhunter]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Why are we asking for proof? On either side? While I support IT its still a theory, not a law.

Find proof for multi-universes or multi-dimensions. You cant. And yet these are the most turned to theories in modern science.

Not trying to compare IT to these theories of course, just trying to show that the asking for proof will not work.

All of these works rely on very conclusive evidence. And just like all these theories IT has its flaws as well.

[Stegoceras]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Stegoceras wrote...


Trees there, shader made, trees removed, shader left....What part don't you understand?

Also seriously asking for me to proof my possible explanation, sorry mate, but that's just straw grasping. Besides how else will you explain the trees, how do they tie in with Shepard and the Indoctrination theory?

perfectly plausible explination. but if you use that for everything in IT, then that means bioware made ALOT of very odd mistakes that only occure only in the last ten minutes. sure there are a frew problems here and there throughout the game, but the last few minutes lose all consitency. 

bioware also said that they choreographed everything in the end down to the last detail....  

of course if the ending was mean to be taken litteraly... lets hope they dont choreograph anything ever again...

Thanks, that's all it is actually. I haven't said it applies to everything though. In this case though I really can't see the connection between reflected trees and Indoctrination and hence I resorted to what I think is the most logical explanation.

Also I think there is a lot of mistakes throughout the game, but the end has been so meticolously scanned that people discovered the most there. For example in my game in the Normandy docking bay when I walk to the far side (the dead-end), turn around and look through the window on the left, the wall on the far side of the lower floor is missing. If it's not an isolated case I bet many people will have missed it. It's minor, but so are many of the things mentioned as 'evidence' for Indoctrination.

[Ageless Face]

SauliusL wrote...

Indoctrinate by kidnapping??? Do you even know how indoctrination works? It doesn't if the subject knows it's happening to him. It fails. Then only another kind of indoctrination works - which makes you a husk. Did you play the same game as we did?

Kidnapping Shepard then place him/her near an artifact so Shepard will be indoc... And the reaprs could use him/her. 

[garrusfan1]

OP it's you Cerberus guy thought you were banned lier

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You basicly said It's real because you saw it even thought the perspective used to see it is suspect. If you understand that it's a seculation to see the ending as real or fake then it sould be logic to not make a calculation based off it.

Wha...?

I said I'm taking the ending at face value. You can still not look at it that way, but from what I interpreted from the ending, I should look at it in face value. 

I don't understand what's the problem here.

Taking the ending as face value is still say you beleive because you saw it. That still does nagater the fact that what you see can be fake and because of the fact that you don't know, you should not make a desison to take it at face value. You don't know what you see is real or fake, why treat it like it's real? That makes no sense.

[SauliusL]

HagarIshay wrote...

OrginaVendor wrote...

? Does the reapers know where shepard is to kidnap him/her? Final mission on Earth is when harbinger manages to knock Shepard cold, probably still think Shepard is useful enough indoctrinated, and begins finalising his/her indoctrination. The dream sequence and all, there are other clues. (not visual or audio, many of those are weak evidence, i concede. but plotwise as well)

All in all, if IT really comes to fruitation, i believe many people who are saying its a bad idea would appreciate it as a way to give a better new ending without scrapping this old one(instead relegating it as a dream scene experienced while Harbinger focuses on indoctrinating shepard). Have some ideas on how that might turn out

Yeah, they do. Shepard was on Thessia, Shepard was on rannoch, Shepard was on Tuchunka, Shepard was on Earth (at the start). The reapers knew Shepard was there. Why didn't they focused a direct force on Shepard to kidnapp him/her, then indoctrinate, if the reapers wanted Shepard indoctrinated so badly? The IT say the indoctrination has started since Earth. Why didn't the reapers try to make it stronger? Kidnapp Shepard, then Shepard would be at the hands of the reapers. Shepard can sabotage the whole plans to try and fight the reapers.

I don't think the IT is a bad idea. it's actally really brilliant. I myself hate it, however.  

Codex says that Reapers during the cycles indoctrinate important personalities, leaders of nations or civilizations (Shepard is not a leader?) . But for such indoctrination to be useful it cannot be RAPID or forced, it will make a husk out of a leader. The person has to believe it's his own ideas, not planted by reapers and in that way Reaper has an amazing ally.
This is completely not fanfiction.

[Samtheman63]

the whole point of indoctrination is you don't realise its happening. im sure shepard would notice if the reapers kidnapped him

[Ageless Face]

OrginaVendor wrote...

Taking it at face value is not really that hard, lol. Just another unsatisfactory ending to a pretty good game. Just happens that a better explanation for certain people can be found from various events within ME3, and that it could work well for everyone, even, if done right

Like I said, people can look at it however they want. I decided to take it at face value and try to speculate from that. 

[OrginaVendor]

shodiswe wrote...

The problem with disproving the IT is that there is no proof of it to begin with, it's jsut a lot of loose ends that people have been speculationg and fanticising about... It's like an old fashiend witchhunt, it would never hold in any court it the purpose was to prove a crome had hapend, assuming the indoctrination was the crime.

The best proof against the IT is the lack of proof to the contrary. There is no single piece of evidence that tells us 100% that Shepard was indoctrinated, or that shepard was indoctrinated to the lvl needed for the IT to be valid. Reused graphics or Keeper salvaged materials is no proof of anything.

To me IT seems to have become a religious cult that's more interested in protecting it's "Faith" thereby all evidence and reasoning would be pointless. Secondly since all the evidence for IT are loosely knit anomalies with no explanation or indication given by the originator of this piece of art/story any of these things can be interpreted in one of hundreds of different ways. Only afew would intercept with IT, and for IT to hold all anomalies must be interpreted in a way that supports IT or it fails.

However, since IT is no longer about reasoning or logic or proof but a leap of "Faith" there is nothing left to discuss. The only valid question is, do you support IT as your religion? Does it comfort you when the ending becommes to painful, does it bring you solave when shepard stands there saying he/she doesn't know. Does it bring you a feeling of relief each time the Catalyst tells you the "truth" that shepard won't question, that doesn't matter because you have your "Faith"? Then you are an IT cultist.
Normaly I wouldn't care at all but it's getting a little tiresome to see an IT person jump into every thread and say it's untrue mention something about IT and link the IT threads that have been bumped to the top of the forums for moths... We all know there are there thank you very much. We have seen them, it's hard to miss the works of the space jehovas of Mass effect.
I'm sure the future of the Mass effect francise will picture Sheard like some kind of messia among pretty much all the races in the galaxy... Not sure about the Batarians , they could be the exception but Sheaprd did save them aswell.
I'm not looking for an opportunity to bash anyone in particular idea/s but all this IT evangelism is getting out of hand, I was hoping it would quiet down after a while. Maybe the EC will slow it down even if it won't route it out. Having their visions fail and proven wrong and forcing them to reevaluate didn't disband the Jehovas. They just adapted and whatever hapend they would "edit" their beliefs to keep it alive.

I wonder what it will sound like when the 5th installment is about to hit.. Well people IT didn't get proven in the 4th installment but we found a lot of anomalities indicating that something weird is indeed going on, out belief is stronger than ever before, the 5th game will prove it!

I'm actualy starting to look forward to the EC even if it's crap.. I'm sure a few things will amuse me at the very least. And I love the ME universe even if the ME3 ending was horrible in it's execution. New cinematics will be welcome.

Partly true, but the focus on the religious portion of IT does expose some fallacy as well. Many of us just think that IT could work well if put into ME3, especially since there are already some clues(who are not proof, evidently) supporting IT. 

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

Indoctrinate by kidnapping??? Do you even know how indoctrination works? It doesn't if the subject knows it's happening to him. It fails. Then only another kind of indoctrination works - which makes you a husk. Did you play the same game as we did?

Kidnapping Shepard then place him/her near an artifact so Shepard will be indoc... And the reaprs could use him/her. 

Indoctriantion does only happen by being near an artifact...Also, what do you thing they were trying to do in ME2?

[Catamantaloedis]

garrusfan1 wrote...

OP it's you Cerberus guy thought you were banned lier

I was banned. For a time. But I'm very persistent.

[llbountyhunter]

HagarIshay wrote...

OrginaVendor wrote...

? Does the reapers know where shepard is to kidnap him/her? Final mission on Earth is when harbinger manages to knock Shepard cold, probably still think Shepard is useful enough indoctrinated, and begins finalising his/her indoctrination. The dream sequence and all, there are other clues. (not visual or audio, many of those are weak evidence, i concede. but plotwise as well)

All in all, if IT really comes to fruitation, i believe many people who are saying its a bad idea would appreciate it as a way to give a better new ending without scrapping this old one(instead relegating it as a dream scene experienced while Harbinger focuses on indoctrinating shepard). Have some ideas on how that might turn out

Yeah, they do. Shepard was on Thessia, Shepard was on rannoch, Shepard was on Tuchunka, Shepard was on Earth (at the start). The reapers knew Shepard was there. Why didn't they focused a direct force on Shepard to kidnapp him/her, then indoctrinate, if the reapers wanted Shepard indoctrinated so badly? The IT say the indoctrination has started since Earth. Why didn't the reapers try to make it stronger? Kidnapp Shepard, then Shepard would be at the hands of the reapers. Shepard can sabotage the whole plans to try and fight the reapers.

I don't think the IT is a bad idea. it's actally really brilliant. I myself hate it, however.  

 IT answers all of these problems... it makes even less sense litteraly.

also I dont think shepards was indoctrinated since earth...

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 16 juin 2012 - 04:44 .

[AsheraII]

llbountyhunter wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Why give a mirror of a tree in a room with no trees?
Also, it takes more work to make something similer to something.

Completely false in computer generated designs. To make something have a similar look (intentionally or not!!!):
copy -> paste -> tweak.
It beats creating similar objects (like, uhhmmmmm TREES) from scratch every single time.

in this case though, only the cube mape were added and not the trees... why? 

why go to the trouble of adding just the cubemaps?


bioware so lazy they added more unessecary detail?

Because, at some late stage in development, the trees were there, but they were most probably removed.

Another possibility is, that *somewhere* in ME3, there's some metalic surface which reflects some trees, and had the reflection baked into the texture. Next, the texture got re-used, and someone made a mistake of using the later version of the texture, with the tree reflection.

Another possibility is, that the texture was used on both surfaces, one we'll call Location A (with trees) and another location B (no trees). Location A was polished up a little, reflections got baked into the texture, and the old texture was completely replaced, accidentally also adding that same bake to the texture in location B.

It's even possible that the reflection was included intentionally, because it gave an interesting, slightly frosted look to the surface. The surface was never meant to be used in a still image, but only seen briefly while moving across, so while playing it would indeed have the subtle desired visual effect, but on a still screencapture, the truth of how the effect was achieved would come out.

[Ageless Face]

SauliusL wrote...


Codex says that Reapers during the cycles indoctrinate important personalities, leaders of nations or civilizations (Shepard is not a leader?) . But for such indoctrination to be useful it cannot be RAPID or forced, it will make a husk out of a leader. The person has to believe it's his own ideas, not planted by reapers and in that way Reaper has an amazing ally.
This is completely not fanfiction.

Was Garyson a mindless husk? 

The reapers can implent something inside the body of Shepard, so no one will see it. 

And Shepard IS a leader s/he is the reason that the fleets are coming together. And in a very fast time. The reapers will want to indoc Shepard quickly so they won't have to deal with too much force, wouldn't they?

[wsandista]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

OP it's you Cerberus guy thought you were banned lier

I was banned. For a time. But I'm very persistent.

Shouldn't you be paying more attention to little Casticus? I hear he might be attempting to seize a kingdom.

[SauliusL]

AsheraII wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Why give a mirror of a tree in a room with no trees?
Also, it takes more work to make something similer to something.

Completely false in computer generated designs. To make something have a similar look (intentionally or not!!!):
copy -> paste -> tweak.
It beats creating similar objects (like, uhhmmmmm TREES) from scratch every single time.

in this case though, only the cube mape were added and not the trees... why? 

why go to the trouble of adding just the cubemaps?


bioware so lazy they added more unessecary detail?

Because, at some late stage in development, the trees were there, but they were most probably removed.

Another possibility is, that *somewhere* in ME3, there's some metalic surface which reflects some trees, and had the reflection baked into the texture. Next, the texture got re-used, and someone made a mistake of using the later version of the texture, with the tree reflection.

Another possibility is, that the texture was used on both surfaces, one we'll call Location A (with trees) and another location B (no trees). Location A was polished up a little, reflections got baked into the texture, and the old texture was completely replaced, accidentally also adding that same bake to the texture in location B.

It's even possible that the reflection was included intentionally, because it gave an interesting, slightly frosted look to the surface. The surface was never meant to be used in a still image, but only seen briefly while moving across, so while playing it would indeed have the subtle desired visual effect, but on a still screencapture, the truth of how the effect was achieved would come out.

You arguments are best described as "theories"
But I agree, that it's no proof of anything. It just gives plenty of space for speculations. Equally valid.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

Indoctriantion does only happen by being near an artifact...Also, what do you thing they were trying to do in ME2?

The reapers didn't secceed to completley indoc Shepard in Arrival, if at all. 

[Ageless Face]

llbountyhunter wrote...


 IT answers all of these problems... it makes even less sense litteraly.

also I dont think shepards was indoctrinated since earth...

Really? The IT answers why the reapers didn't try to indoc Shepard before?

And you may believe it. If you are right, then my argument is false. However, I heard more people saying they believe the indoctrination subtly started since Arrival.

[SauliusL]

HagarIshay wrote...

SauliusL wrote...


Codex says that Reapers during the cycles indoctrinate important personalities, leaders of nations or civilizations (Shepard is not a leader?) . But for such indoctrination to be useful it cannot be RAPID or forced, it will make a husk out of a leader. The person has to believe it's his own ideas, not planted by reapers and in that way Reaper has an amazing ally.
This is completely not fanfiction.

Was Garyson a mindless husk? 

The reapers can implent something inside the body of Shepard, so no one will see it. 

And Shepard IS a leader s/he is the reason that the fleets are coming together. And in a very fast time. The reapers will want to indoc Shepard quickly so they won't have to deal with too much force, wouldn't they?

So now you agree that Reapers are very eager to indoctrinate Shepard?
Is now our discussion about how they would choose to do it? That question can be answered only by EC.

p.s. about Grayson - did he look normal to you? If Shepard returns after being kidnapped by reapers changed like Grayson, would anyone in the galaxy trust him all the fleet??

[llbountyhunter]

HagarIshay wrote...

SauliusL wrote...


Codex says that Reapers during the cycles indoctrinate important personalities, leaders of nations or civilizations (Shepard is not a leader?) . But for such indoctrination to be useful it cannot be RAPID or forced, it will make a husk out of a leader. The person has to believe it's his own ideas, not planted by reapers and in that way Reaper has an amazing ally.
This is completely not fanfiction.

Was Garyson a mindless husk? 

The reapers can implent something inside the body of Shepard, so no one will see it. 

And Shepard IS a leader s/he is the reason that the fleets are coming together. And in a very fast time. The reapers will want to indoc Shepard quickly so they won't have to deal with too much force, wouldn't they?

well technically at the later stages, he WAS a mindless husk... he had no control over his body actions, whil TIM does.. it was also pretty obvious that grayson was not completly human anymore.


the reapers may view it as a trap... the fleet doesnt seem to do much damage to the reapers anyways.

perhaps they underestimated shepard?

[wsandista]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


 IT answers all of these problems... it makes even less sense litteraly.

also I dont think shepards was indoctrinated since earth...

Really? The IT answers why the reapers didn't try to indoc Shepard before?

And you may believe it. If you are right, then my argument is false. However, I heard more people saying they believe the indoctrination subtly started since Arrival.

IT is the truth! Bow before IT and accept IT inside of yourself as the one truth!

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

SauliusL wrote...


Codex says that Reapers during the cycles indoctrinate important personalities, leaders of nations or civilizations (Shepard is not a leader?) . But for such indoctrination to be useful it cannot be RAPID or forced, it will make a husk out of a leader. The person has to believe it's his own ideas, not planted by reapers and in that way Reaper has an amazing ally.
This is completely not fanfiction.

Was Garyson a mindless husk? 

The reapers can implent something inside the body of Shepard, so no one will see it. 

And Shepard IS a leader s/he is the reason that the fleets are coming together. And in a very fast time. The reapers will want to indoc Shepard quickly so they won't have to deal with too much force, wouldn't they?

What do you think they were trying to do in ME2? What do you think happen in Arrival?

[SauliusL]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


 IT answers all of these problems... it makes even less sense litteraly.

also I dont think shepards was indoctrinated since earth...

Really? The IT answers why the reapers didn't try to indoc Shepard before?

And you may believe it. If you are right, then my argument is false. However, I heard more people saying they believe the indoctrination subtly started since Arrival.

It is mentioned more than couple of times that Shepard is extraordinary strong willed. Maybe even Reapers did not expect that it would be so hard to indoctrinate him? Maybe they tried since Arrival, but saw it doesn't work and decided that Mr. Harbinger himself will do it on close proximity?

[comrade gando]

what the... you AGAIN?! how many rediculous threads are you going to make?!

[llbountyhunter]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


 IT answers all of these problems... it makes even less sense litteraly.

also I dont think shepards was indoctrinated since earth...

Really? The IT answers why the reapers didn't try to indoc Shepard before?

And you may believe it. If you are right, then my argument is false. However, I heard more people saying they believe the indoctrination subtly started since Arrival.

well, I think shepard was influenced by arrival, but not indoctrinated... kinda like how grayson was for the first few days... just resisting.

I dont really consider that indoctrination... more like a indoctrination attempt.



i answered the first question on another post...