896 réponses à ce sujet

[Catamantaloedis]

comrade gando wrote...

what the... you AGAIN?! how many rediculous threads are you going to make?!

I've never made a single ridiculous thread before. So I don't know what you are implying.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 16 juin 2012 - 04:54 .

[Fingertrip]

I lol'd.

[OrginaVendor]

HagarIshay wrote...

SauliusL wrote...


Codex says that Reapers during the cycles indoctrinate important personalities, leaders of nations or civilizations (Shepard is not a leader?) . But for such indoctrination to be useful it cannot be RAPID or forced, it will make a husk out of a leader. The person has to believe it's his own ideas, not planted by reapers and in that way Reaper has an amazing ally.
This is completely not fanfiction.

Was Garyson a mindless husk? 

The reapers can implent something inside the body of Shepard, so no one will see it. 

And Shepard IS a leader s/he is the reason that the fleets are coming together. And in a very fast time. The reapers will want to indoc Shepard quickly so they won't have to deal with too much force, wouldn't they?

I think it would probably be pretty obvious if that happened, also because they never got a chance and Shepard killed all reaper forces as soon as they got close to him, and moved away pretty quickly. None of the destroyers Shepard faced had the peace of mind or the time to bombard Shepard with "indoctrination EM waves" lol. Although the first Earth mission was a bit of a plothole? Maybe the non-harbinger reapers underestimated Shepard then and did not bother to focus on killing him that soon.

ME is full of "plot holes" as with other works of  fiction anyway, I think IT only adds a few of it for a possibly much improved ending that does not exactly contradict the one we currently got

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Indoctriantion does only happen by being near an artifact...Also, what do you thing they were trying to do in ME2?

The reapers didn't secceed to completley indoc Shepard in Arrival, if at all. 

SO? It started. The foundation were in place. Just because they didn't fully indoctriante Shepard then doesn't mean they stop trying. The very fact that Shepard was hit by the indoctriantion beam means the procces started. Did you say the in order for someone to be indoctrianted they gave to understand the voice from it.....After Shepard was hit with the indoctriantion wave in Arrival, did he clearly hear and understood the voices in his head?

[OrginaVendor]

wsandista wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


 IT answers all of these problems... it makes even less sense litteraly.

also I dont think shepards was indoctrinated since earth...

Really? The IT answers why the reapers didn't try to indoc Shepard before?

And you may believe it. If you are right, then my argument is false. However, I heard more people saying they believe the indoctrination subtly started since Arrival.

IT is the truth! Bow before IT and accept IT inside of yourself as the one truth!

Lol your condescending tone is actually quite comforting

[Ageless Face]

SauliusL wrote...

So now you agree that Reapers are very eager to indoctrinate Shepard?
Is now our discussion about how they would choose to do it? That question can be answered only by EC.

p.s. about Grayson - did he look normal to you? If Shepard returns after being kidnapped by reapers changed like Grayson, would anyone in the galaxy trust him all the fleet??

Actually I don't agree. I mean that if it was their intention from the start, they had better ways to do so.

So, what? Every question that you can't answer will be simply answerd in the EC? The same can be said for the original ending. Besides, who every said the IT was confirmed?

Like I said, the reapers could implent Shepard with a device in herself. Gryson was upgraded. Shepard doesn't have to have the upgrades. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 16 juin 2012 - 04:57 .

[dreman9999]

OrginaVendor wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

SauliusL wrote...


Codex says that Reapers during the cycles indoctrinate important personalities, leaders of nations or civilizations (Shepard is not a leader?) . But for such indoctrination to be useful it cannot be RAPID or forced, it will make a husk out of a leader. The person has to believe it's his own ideas, not planted by reapers and in that way Reaper has an amazing ally.
This is completely not fanfiction.

Was Garyson a mindless husk? 

The reapers can implent something inside the body of Shepard, so no one will see it. 

And Shepard IS a leader s/he is the reason that the fleets are coming together. And in a very fast time. The reapers will want to indoc Shepard quickly so they won't have to deal with too much force, wouldn't they?

I think it would probably be pretty obvious if that happened, also because they never got a chance and Shepard killed all reaper forces as soon as they got close to him, and moved away pretty quickly. None of the destroyers Shepard faced had the peace of mind or the time to bombard Shepard with "indoctrination EM waves" lol. Although the first Earth mission was a bit of a plothole? Maybe the non-harbinger reapers underestimated Shepard then and did not bother to focus on killing him that soon.

ME is full of "plot holes" as with other works of  fiction anyway, I think IT only adds a few of it for a possibly much improved ending that does not exactly contradict the one we currently got

You clearly don't understand indoctriation. Reaper give off the feild automaticly, they have no real nedd to focuse it. Also, note that every dreamshepard had is afterfacing the reapers and their forces.

[garrusfan1]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

OP it's you Cerberus guy thought you were banned lier

I was banned. For a time. But I'm very persistent.

No just annoying

[Ageless Face]

llbountyhunter wrote...


well technically at the later stages, he WAS a mindless husk... he had no control over his body actions, whil TIM does.. it was also pretty obvious that grayson was not completly human anymore.


the reapers may view it as a trap... the fleet doesnt seem to do much damage to the reapers anyways.

perhaps they underestimated shepard?

Right, he wasn't. Just like Shepard will not have control over his/her actions. But he did talk like he was fine.

Does it matter? Better safe than sorry, no?

And if the fleet don't do damage, how will Shepard defeat the reapers without the crucible?

[Ageless Face]

wsandista wrote...


IT is the truth! Bow before IT and accept IT inside of yourself as the one truth!

But I don't want to....

[comrade gando]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

what the... you AGAIN?! how many rediculous threads are you going to make?!

I've never made a single ridiculous thread before. So I don't know what you are implying.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12078878

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11939483

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/325/index/12312346

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12057152

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12023691

lol the second one is my favorite

[dreman9999]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

what the... you AGAIN?! how many rediculous threads are you going to make?!

I've never made a single ridiculous thread before. So I don't know what you are implying.

[SauliusL]

HagarIshay wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

So now you agree that Reapers are very eager to indoctrinate Shepard?
Is now our discussion about how they would choose to do it? That question can be answered only by EC.

p.s. about Grayson - did he look normal to you? If Shepard returns after being kidnapped by reapers changed like Grayson, would anyone in the galaxy trust him all the fleet??

Actually I don't agree. I mean that if it was their intention from the start, they had better ways to do so.

So, what? Every question that you can't answer will be simply answerd in the EC? The same can be said for the original ending. Besides, who every said the IT was confirmed?

Like I said, the reapers could implent Shepard with a device in herself. Gryson was upgraded. Shepard doesn't have to have the upgrades. 

Reapers had better ways to do so? How do you know that? You work in bioware?

IT is not confirmed. But never denied also. All speculations are valid at this point.

If reapers made anything similar to Shepard as they did to Grayson - there is no way galaxy would trust him the same way they did. That's why indoctrination to have any use for reapers has to be subtle without Shepard knowing. At least for me that's more than obvious after playing all games, reading codex, and the books.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

What do you think they were trying to do in ME2? What do you think happen in Arrival?

Answered this question already, I believe.

[SauliusL]

comrade gando wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

what the... you AGAIN?! how many rediculous threads are you going to make?!

I've never made a single ridiculous thread before. So I don't know what you are implying.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12078878

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11939483

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/325/index/12312346

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12057152

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12023691

lol the second one is my favorite

Wow, thats a portfolio of a teenager 

[Ageless Face]

SauliusL wrote...

It is mentioned more than couple of times that Shepard is extraordinary strong willed. Maybe even Reapers did not expect that it would be so hard to indoctrinate him? Maybe they tried since Arrival, but saw it doesn't work and decided that Mr. Harbinger himself will do it on close proximity?

So was Grayson. So was Saren. So was TIM. They were all strong willed. That didn't stop the reapers from indoctrinate them. Why is Shepard be the expection if s/he was indoc? Again, why not simply try to indoc harder?

The reapers let humans guard Shepard in Arrival. They didn't even placed him/her near the artifact for the two days s/he was there. Obviously they didn't try hard enough to indoctrinate. 

[llbountyhunter]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


well technically at the later stages, he WAS a mindless husk... he had no control over his body actions, whil TIM does.. it was also pretty obvious that grayson was not completly human anymore.


the reapers may view it as a trap... the fleet doesnt seem to do much damage to the reapers anyways.

perhaps they underestimated shepard?

Right, he wasn't. Just like Shepard will not have control over his/her actions. But he did talk like he was fine.

Does it matter? Better safe than sorry, no?

And if the fleet don't do damage, how will Shepard defeat the reapers without the crucible?

1.it makes more sense for the reapers to try to take out the whole fleet as well.

2. that will presumably be answers in EC...

however  it is possibe that IT can be a way to actually defeat the repears. (my personal speculation at this point)

in my eyes I view IT as a huge, epic mental boss battle with harbinger. perhaps, after choosing detroy, harbinger is destroyed in the real-world, or maybe even the reaper fleets shields are taken down. (similar to how killing saren disabled sovereign in me1), this then allows the alliance fleet to have fair odds in destroying the reapers and a chance for your war-assets and choices to shine. 

[Baa Baa]

I'm sure the ITers would be offended if it wasn't coming from a notorious troll

[OrginaVendor]

dreman9999 wrote...

OrginaVendor wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

SauliusL wrote...


Codex says that Reapers during the cycles indoctrinate important personalities, leaders of nations or civilizations (Shepard is not a leader?) . But for such indoctrination to be useful it cannot be RAPID or forced, it will make a husk out of a leader. The person has to believe it's his own ideas, not planted by reapers and in that way Reaper has an amazing ally.
This is completely not fanfiction.

Was Garyson a mindless husk? 

The reapers can implent something inside the body of Shepard, so no one will see it. 

And Shepard IS a leader s/he is the reason that the fleets are coming together. And in a very fast time. The reapers will want to indoc Shepard quickly so they won't have to deal with too much force, wouldn't they?

I think it would probably be pretty obvious if that happened, also because they never got a chance and Shepard killed all reaper forces as soon as they got close to him, and moved away pretty quickly. None of the destroyers Shepard faced had the peace of mind or the time to bombard Shepard with "indoctrination EM waves" lol. Although the first Earth mission was a bit of a plothole? Maybe the non-harbinger reapers underestimated Shepard then and did not bother to focus on killing him that soon.

ME is full of "plot holes" as with other works of  fiction anyway, I think IT only adds a few of it for a possibly much improved ending that does not exactly contradict the one we currently got

You clearly don't understand indoctriation. Reaper give off the feild automaticly, they have no real nedd to focuse it. Also, note that every dreamshepard had is afterfacing the reapers and their forces.

"Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods." "Rapid indoctrination is possible"

That doesn't mean that conscious reapers aren't able to control and direct the indoctrination of specific individuals. I was just speaking figuratively of the destroyers Shepard faced amping up that "field" to rapidly indoctrinate Shepard as suggested by HagarIsHay

[Ageless Face]

llbountyhunter wrote...


well, I think shepard was influenced by arrival, but not indoctrinated... kinda like how grayson was for the first few days... just resisting.

I dont really consider that indoctrination... more like a indoctrination attempt.



i answered the first question on another post... 

Yet again, the reapers didn't try hard enough. It would have been safer for them to try and indoctrinate Shepard. Just because one (sloppy) attempt didn't suceed, does it mean it's not possible at all to do it?

[dreman9999]

OrginaVendor wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

OrginaVendor wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

SauliusL wrote...


Codex says that Reapers during the cycles indoctrinate important personalities, leaders of nations or civilizations (Shepard is not a leader?) . But for such indoctrination to be useful it cannot be RAPID or forced, it will make a husk out of a leader. The person has to believe it's his own ideas, not planted by reapers and in that way Reaper has an amazing ally.
This is completely not fanfiction.

Was Garyson a mindless husk? 

The reapers can implent something inside the body of Shepard, so no one will see it. 

And Shepard IS a leader s/he is the reason that the fleets are coming together. And in a very fast time. The reapers will want to indoc Shepard quickly so they won't have to deal with too much force, wouldn't they?

I think it would probably be pretty obvious if that happened, also because they never got a chance and Shepard killed all reaper forces as soon as they got close to him, and moved away pretty quickly. None of the destroyers Shepard faced had the peace of mind or the time to bombard Shepard with "indoctrination EM waves" lol. Although the first Earth mission was a bit of a plothole? Maybe the non-harbinger reapers underestimated Shepard then and did not bother to focus on killing him that soon.

ME is full of "plot holes" as with other works of  fiction anyway, I think IT only adds a few of it for a possibly much improved ending that does not exactly contradict the one we currently got

You clearly don't understand indoctriation. Reaper give off the feild automaticly, they have no real nedd to focuse it. Also, note that every dreamshepard had is afterfacing the reapers and their forces.

"Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods." "Rapid indoctrination is possible"

That doesn't mean that conscious reapers aren't able to control and direct the indoctrination of specific individuals. I was just speaking figuratively of the destroyers Shepard faced amping up that "field" to rapidly indoctrinate Shepard as suggested by HagarIsHay

Oh....Sorry. Just bring up the poitn that the dreams always happen after facing the reapers and their faces as you countinue.

[SauliusL]

HagarIshay wrote...

SauliusL wrote...

It is mentioned more than couple of times that Shepard is extraordinary strong willed. Maybe even Reapers did not expect that it would be so hard to indoctrinate him? Maybe they tried since Arrival, but saw it doesn't work and decided that Mr. Harbinger himself will do it on close proximity?

So was Grayson. So was Saren. So was TIM. They were all strong willed. That didn't stop the reapers from indoctrinate them. Why is Shepard be the expection if s/he was indoc? Again, why not simply try to indoc harder?

The reapers let humans guard Shepard in Arrival. They didn't even placed him/her near the artifact for the two days s/he was there. Obviously they didn't try hard enough to indoctrinate. 

Grayson - implanted, Saren - too much time in Sovereign, TIM - playing with reaper tech. All these are facts. All of it made the indoctrination easier.

Shepard in Mass effect universe is an exception. That's why he is the main character.

[AsheraII]

SauliusL wrote...
You arguments are best described as "theories"
But I agree, that it's no proof of anything. It just gives plenty of space for speculations. Equally valid.

Exactly, but they're not a definite truth, and nor is the IT.
IT is an interresting theory, but it's still only a theory. One of many possible theories.

What the OP, and I, and many other IT-ers try to bring across, is that it is still only a theory. But *many* pro-IT-ers try to present it as factual by now. If you don't support it / them, they're personally offended and brand you as a heretic. "Bring out the pitchforks, prepare the stake!", "There is no other solution, it must be IT"

And the thing is repeated over and over and bumped constantly, it's long past the point where the IT is being indoctrinated itself. Post a theory different from IT, and it'll get swamped with complaints how it doesn't fit with IT, how IT is better, and so on, and so on.

Sorry, some people simply don't buy the IT, it doesn't fit with their own experiences, their knowledge of Mass Effect (or even gamedesign overall), they simply have their own theories, or they simply like the endings AS THEY ARE NOW and would like to see some more closure at best instead of some The Matrix 3 flavoured overhaul / turn of events.
But saying any of those things will only result in remarks like "you tooo dumb fo' the IT", followed with those silly screenshots of four-axle MAKO's that we've seen for months by now.

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


well, I think shepard was influenced by arrival, but not indoctrinated... kinda like how grayson was for the first few days... just resisting.

I dont really consider that indoctrination... more like a indoctrination attempt.



i answered the first question on another post... 

Yet again, the reapers didn't try hard enough. It would have been safer for them to try and indoctrinate Shepard. Just because one (sloppy) attempt didn't suceed, does it mean it's not possible at all to do it?

Who said they stopped. What do you think the dreams are?

[SauliusL]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


well, I think shepard was influenced by arrival, but not indoctrinated... kinda like how grayson was for the first few days... just resisting.

I dont really consider that indoctrination... more like a indoctrination attempt.



i answered the first question on another post... 

Yet again, the reapers didn't try hard enough. It would have been safer for them to try and indoctrinate Shepard. Just because one (sloppy) attempt didn't suceed, does it mean it's not possible at all to do it?

Probably it's possible, but requires extreme measures - like Harbinger doing it himself.